Five-Star Conversation 06.16.09: The Goodbye Edition

Posted by Geoff Eubanks on 06.16.2009

No, not me, no such luck. One way or another, we’ve seen an eclectic amount of talent taking his or her leave in the early part of the summer of 2009, some in solemn, tragic fashion, some which require a keener look and one that I personally am mourning, but with which I plan to have some fun. Let’s get this donkey show on the road! Your referee…Bronco Lubich!

THOUGHT OF THE WEEK: I think I saw Carlito on Haight Street in San Francisco, shuffling along and muttering "Kind bud" to passers-by.

Farewell to a legend
Friends, we say goodbye this week to one of the greats of the professional wrestling global family, Mitsuharu Misawa. I'm not going attempt to be the wise guy who informs the uninitiated with the particulars of Misawa's life and career, one, because I'm not the authority on the subject and, two, because we have other, more knowledgeable writers here at 411 who would do a much better service to Misawa's stellar career. I would suggest you check out those guys for a proper moratorium.

I do know Misawa was considered by Japanese fans to be the home country equivalent to that of Hulk Hogan in the ‘80s or The Rock in the ‘90s in terms of fan devotion and popularity and that he was the second man honored with the right to portray the infamous Tiger Mask gimmick. Between the years of 1985 – 2003, Misawa would take part in no fewer than 24 Five-Star Matches and five Matches of the Year in the opinion of The Wrestling Observer.

But rather than have me blabber on, spend some time and check out this awesome match from 1999 for the All Japan Pro Wrestling Triple Crown against longtime partner Toshiaki Kawada. It's a bit slow in the beginning, but it's all just gathering momentum.







Mitsuharu Misawa RIP

The men with the Velcro musculature
Oh man I couldn't agree more, please get rid of Batista. I would rather watch Goldberg, Warrior and Sid over this man.
Posted By: Brad

When Scott Steiner was released, I was angry because I felt he'd been criminally misused but it's always stuck with me that the WWE termed him "fragile". I wonder how much longer before Batista gets the same labeling. Kennedy was darn close to as it was.
Posted By: Pete

The common denominator among all of the gentlemen mentioned above is that they are/were all walking Wellness infractions, if you smell what the Doc is cookin (Doctor Black, that is) and I think that leads strongly into why Batista, at least, spends more time off from the ring than The Undertaker. Now, I'm hardly the authority on steroids, HGH and the rest of the performance-enhancing drugs that are obviously still being abused in locker rooms across the world, and I believe The Wellness Policy has been doing its job (or at least I want to believe as much), because we're seeing fewer and fewer impressive physiques on many WWE performers, thereby implying an increased number of men and women going au naturel, so to speak.

However, I hesitate to believe that a few performers are really as clean as McMahonagement would have us believe. This is PURE SPECULATION, but if there's three performers in WWE that I could be very easily convinced were on the gas, it'd be Batista, Triple H and Randy Orton, who, also are in the McMahon upper-tier of the company, therefore, also most likely to be protected by the company. Really, I don't mean to be writing one of those articles, where some wingnut starts making wild allegations about a situation where he has no expertise, experience or even the right to be talking all out his head. But when people can't keep their freakishly large muscles knitted onto their bones and they're at the top of the company's flagship show's roster, well, it wouldn't be the first time I've ever heard of a corporate double-standard between those up top and those "lesser-important" employees.

Now again, I don't have a lot of cold, hard facts about either situation, but one wonders, if Kennedy was released for repeated injuries, how then does Batista remain employed when he's hurt about as often, and, moreover, is at the top of the card, as opposed to floating around the very middle of the mid-card, which is where Kennedy seemed to settle on the rare occasion he was good to go. It seemed to me that Kennedy had more going for him than Batista has ever since his falling out with Haitch-n-Naitch, both in the ring as well as in terms of depth of character and overall performance, but I'm on the outside looking in, so I can definitely imagine my view being skewed from that of fan as opposed to someone who sees the whole picture behind the curtain.

Notwithstanding, though, Batista bores me to tears. I've mentioned here in the past how The Animal went from being hungry, viable championship-material during my tenure analyzing The SmackDown! R's to Mr. Close-but-No-Cigar. It seemed to me McMahonagement had the intention of building up his lengthy "missed it by that much" streak to eventually culminate with his finally scoring that long-awaited three-count that would earn him that ever-elusive title victory; what succeeded in occurring instead, though, for me personally, was that I stopped believing he was good enough to put it all together to deserve still another rematch. That, combined with dull as toast, monotonous promos and shallow, one-dimensional character, I have to ask, WHY does this guy endure on Vince's happy-snappy list?!

I've also mentioned here recently that Batista is 40. Now, that by no means equates to OLD in the wrestling industry, but for someone who's needed to have more muscle tissue mended than most of us actually have, there's some dangerous territory we're talking about now. Quite frankly, I was convinced that this was going to be the tear that shut the coffin lid on his career, but apparently he plans on coming back and you can rest assured knowing he'll be back vying for The World Title by autumn. Which, of course, means that as soon as he wins it, he'll forfeit it again and be back home for an early Christmastime celebration. Really, he's his own drinking game. Or office pool, if you prefer.

The WWE Catering Area…now with more room!
Of course, I'm joking, but it's the last of its kind for a good while, if not ever.

We lost Umaga last week. Now it is just this reason that I have faith in WWE's Wellness Policy. From what I understand (and, assuming it's true), Umaga offered a dirty Dixie cup, thus racking up Strike #2, sitting squarely next to Jeff Hardy in the potential-dismissal danger-zone. Apparently a meeting was called on Umaga's behalf with the intention of coming to a reasonable decision that would benefit all involved, but Umaga was apparently adamant against voluntarily seeking any kind of treatment/counseling for what is implied to be some sort of drug habit, instead electing to leave the company altogether.

Something that bothers me about these Wellness infractions is that WWE will announce publicly the offenders, but remain mum with respect to what offenders did to earn the suspension. For instance, with all the long-standing talk surrounding Jeff Hardy, I've never once heard what substance exactly it was he was doing, which, I think, would go a long way in determining how greatly they are using or abusing, which I think is a key point in situations like these, but that also comes into different viewpoints on the subject. There are those who feel any form of usage is bad and others who remain steadfast that only abuse should be monitored and treated.

There are also some drugs that should be viewed as more dangerous than others, I feel. For instance, I personally have only known two people in my entire life who have ever managed to display any ability to live a responsible, adult life while doing meth-amphetamine regularly. I'm convinced anyone caught with that stuff in their pee should be watched for lapses in their normal behavior because meth can overtake even the most normal and unassuming people, and it's just the kind of drug that encourages people to no-show work dates, etc., therefore making them risky folks to employ. Heroin is also one of those drugs that becomes a lifestyle quickly if the user isn't careful, as can be cocaine (all deference to Angry Bear).

Bottom line, though, I really hope Eddie "Umaga" Fatu, as Jim Ross put it so well in his blog, takes some time to really be certain about his priorities and that he makes the decisions that will best benefit home in both the short- & long-terms. I grew to really admire what an amazing performer he'd evolved into being, and, sometimes with me, once someone convinces me to like them, earns my fandom, oftentimes I'll find myself to be more loyal to them than some of the talent that hooked me from the start.

How long before Russo and Jarrett reach out to Paul E to manage their new version of The SST(Umaga and Joe).
Posted By: Iron Knee

The fact that that comment aroused me disturbs me greatly. But it did.

And finally, in terms of WWE's dearly departed, I say goodbye to my Malevolent Mexican Moocow, Vickiekins Guerrero. As I said last week (gushed, actually…), I simply marveled each week as her heat grew and grew into something almost independently monolithic. That woman was a heat-seeking missile as General Manager and that heat always found her and, whether anyone wants to admit or acknowledge it, she knew exactly what she was doing when she stoked that fire. She strikes me as a much more savvy, developed and polished antagonist than many will give her credit for being. She seemed to really be having fun, which is really the key to performing. And to bring this all together, compare and contrast the character development between Batista and Vickie and tell me who has evolved into a more complete and entertaining personality.

A final farewell to my beloved MooMooCita:



They're not booing, Vickie. They're mooing. Thank you for all the laughs and God bless you for being such a great woman, devoted wife and loving mother.

COMMENTPALOOZA!
Have to say that your WWF markness shines in to all corners of this column, but nowhere brighter than the Road Warriors/Demolition debate. To say that Demolition perfected the gimmick is baffling. Let's look at it in terms of what a promoter, business-man or a normal human being would call success- who made more money? Who drew more people to the arena? Who carried more main events? Check one, two and three off for the Road Warriors, as Demolition was part of the WWF's overall great package and their contribution in tickets sold is nowhere near as significant as the Road Warriors selling places out and being crucial in the success of an entire PPV franchise (Wargames).

That being said, what I like about Demolition and why I think a lot of people enjoyed watching them more was the fact that they sold, they weren't unstoppable monsters and they had longer and therefore better matches. But the success of Demolition in spite of being a rip-off emboldened McMahon to do such very stupid things down the road like Fake Razor/Diesel. Demolition being accepted even when wrestling logic would say they weren't supposed to be also led others to try and fail at rip-off characters. The lesson should be that unless your product is glossier and your reach is wider- TNA be warned.
Posted By: scott_nm

Dear Commenters:

While it is great to debate who we think are the greatest teams (or greatest anything) - the column material over the past few weeks isn't about the greatest, it is favorite tag teams.

The rules therefore change:

You can never fault someone's favorite of anything. For instance I don't like berries. I don't understand why someone likes strawberries or blueberries but I can't really fault them for liking something I don't.

I like a lot of fatty foods, others are repulsed by them. While my lifestyle and health choices might be harmful, you can't really knock a favorite part of that selection on my behalf.

I saw this b/c the comments over the last few week resort to a bit of name calling and less about conversation. These are favorites people, not absolutes or even putting asses in the seats discussions.

For instance, Geoff likes Demolition. They had whatever "it" was that clicked for him. While I appreciate the WWF lift of the LoD gimmick and I do like the way they varied it (especially with any 2 of the 3 members being able to defend the belt), they were never one of my favorites. Per the terms of the column (and respect of the columnist), it is pointless to argue that Demolition sucked or someone else was better. Instead, the column, and most of his columns unless they involve "The Miz" are meant for readers to add to action that Geoff has merely facilitated so kindly for us as ardent readers.

The reading become more enjoyable when we all realize we have different taste and we can just respect and enjoy the banter.

Also - I believe embracing The Killer Bees leads to all understanding!

Posted By: thegunisgood

Thanks, gun! I'd be quite reticent to attempt any sort of "GREATEST" column, because that just seems like the handle to Pandora's box begging, "Pull me!", although it would likely be a hell of a hit catalyst. But, too, it would force me to give props to people I hate whom I think I already have to hear about enough as it is, and that wouldn't be fun for me, to go back to Vickie having fun in her role as GM.

Gun, what if The Miz came to the ring decrying the uselessness of berries, squirting can after can of Cheez-Whiz into the crowd wearing KILLER BEES trunks…? CONUNDRUM!!!

Scott, despite our differing personal appreciation for THE ROAD WARRIORS, I really admire the way you said your piece and without pulling punches, but then turned around, your piece said (and factually, I don't think I could mount an argument against you, as I think you were probably bang on correct in your juxtaposition between the two teams), you were able to see the situation through my eyes, as well. Props for that, even though we probably aren't going to be sitting down to watch classic tag team wrestling together anytime soon! Thanks for contributing!

I used to love spotfests like that Mikey/Tajii/Kash/Crazy match when I was a teenager and watched them live, and I still love that particular match, but now I find myself thinking "go for the pin!!" whenever I watch them. I can't enjoy spotfests with that same innocent glee, now that I've spent years thinking about the mental aspect of pro wrestling, and what makes people care about a match. Well, to care, you have to believe, and it's hard to believe that someone would hit a Whippersnapper off the damned turnbuckle across two chairs and not go for a cover. Luckily, Mikey's deranged gimmick almost makes up for that, but I'm getting off on a tangent here...

You can pull amazing "holy shit!" moves out and still put on a match that people can believe. Evan Bourne does it on a regular basis, because he's put the time and energy necessary into making people believe his work. He also sells brilliantly and makes you really care about his attempts to escape from a submission hold. That is what's got him on a path to success in WWE right now, not the unparalleled grace in his shooting star press. Freaking awesome move, by the way.

Also, just eat shrooms. They're usually pretty easy to find in these warmer months. And not nearly as ghoulish in their effects.
Posted By: KanyonKreist

Kanyon, your answer about why Mikey didn't go for the cover? His butt hurt, plain and simple.

You make a HELL of a great point in contrasting Mikey & Bourne, and you're absolutely right. I'm going to use your comment to come out (again!) and be plainly honest about my changing view of Paul Heyman's ECW that will be nothing less than shocking to those who know me. In having gone back and looked at some old school ECW stuff after having given it a rest for while, I can see the point some of the oldster performers make when they open their mouths and pull out their bitter grudge against ECW, which, at its basic level, typifies the difference between Mikey and Bourne.

Heyman's ECW was just a different quality of storytelling in wrestling. Heyman conceptualized his characters in a completely different manner than anyone else holding the book anywhere in North America before or since and it was his unique brand of conceptualization that allowed him to tell their stories in a different manner. There's likely little better example of his style of storytelling than the saga existing between Tommy Dreamer and Raven. The story was basic and, moreover, human, based in emotion, two childhood rivals who went into the same profession and, later, found one another in the same promotion. Bitter competition was bound to follow and it did, for two years or more.

The thing is, love and respect them as I do, neither Dreamer nor Raven will ever be accused of boasting Flair-like skills, but each man would hit that ring every night and do whatever it took to make sure his physical performance would be as intense as the story was passionate, to ensure the fans got a hell of a show, despite whatever quality of injury that intensity might consequently occur. That was the case with the better part of ECW's old school roster, with the obvious stand-outs in Eddie Guerrero, Dean Malenko, Chris Jericho, Taz, Chris Benoit, Guido Maritato, Chris Candido and, of course, Jerry Lynn.

The rest of the roster changed a lot over the years, but one thing, one quality never varied among these performers – the desire and drive to put on a show fans would always remember and if the ability to put on a show that told a traditional story was out of their means, rather than shirk that duty, they simply went about telling a different kind of story, one not told with suplexes and wristlocks, but with torn flesh and spilt blood.

And so, to come back to the difference between Mikey and Bourne, Mikey simply just might not have been trained to tell a traditional story whereas Bourne has been. That's why Bourne would look to make that cover attempt, and Mikey was thinking in terms of the next spot or sequence of spots. Not saying one is necessarily better than the other, as I obviously am entertained by both, but one, as you said, is certainly more believable than the other.

And, Kanyon, the whole reason for doing the salvia is because 1) it's legal and was an easy score, and 2) the time commitment involved is like half an hour versus six or so hours with shrooms. I don't think I have that kind of stamina anymore!

"Sorry, Toddo, but I don't remember a program with THE HOLLYS. You know I love (not like that) and respect you, brother, but this is one of those instances where we have to agree to disagree."

Thats fine bro, but if my memory serves me, and it has been known to fall subject to brainfarts, the Holly's snuck into the Outlaws vs Rock and Sock program and somehow walked away with the titles... Like I said I may be wrong, and it may just be a match between R&S vs. the Holly's. Either way, keep up the good work my friend.
Posted By: Todd Vote

I'm sure I have that on video somewhere. I should unearth it and have another look. But, yeah R&S still qualify as thrown-together in my book. And if you wanna go in terms of ratings significance, Yerple the Clown was on that Raw segment, PLUS was there for Bedpan McMahon and the birth of Mr. Socko, so she'd likely qualify as a greater star of more significance than many who've toiled away with WWE for years, yet were never involved in a high-profile scene.

All this talk of great tag teams and no mention of Tully and Arn Anderson pre-WWF. NWA/WCW era. They were a tag team force..
Posted By: Kilo

You are correct, sir. We did all our Arn & Tully talk the week before.

Geoff, if you need a break, by all means, take one. Work smarter, not harder. I live by it, so I don't feel drained so much. Do whatever you need to do. We'll be right here waiting for your EPIC return.

I'm sorry you don't care for the Bees, but to each his own.

Also, last night on RAW, I saw Santino, Festus, Hornswoggle and Goldust together! What are these strange visions of the future I can see?

Gun, as far as your idea for us to "take over" the column, as cool as that sounds, I can't. It involves around forty to sixty jobs and I can't risk it. Maybe after I win the lottery and others aren't in any danger. I'm very flattered though, that I would be considered worthy enough to write a column for this site. That really means a lot. If you were to run a column, you can count on me as a "hit". As far as embracing the Killer Bees leading to all understanding is concerned, I second that! It does kind of sound like Bill and Ted's music. WILD STALLIONS!!!
Posted By: The Great Capt. Smooth

If you need a break Geoff, I think Capt and I could put something unique together to give the readers something to chew on -

or -

Just sweeten your hit count once you comeback from our abysmal rating.
Posted By: thegunisgood

Geoff, sorry to hear that you may be "losing your smile" when it comes to this article. Let me speak for your other readers and say that 411 would be for the worse without you. Maybe we can lighten your load and take turns as guest columnists for you? Nothing extravagant, just 2000 words or less about something wrestling related that's on our minds. Have designated weeks for one/two/three of us and post our column, shitty or not. If nothing else, the comment section should be fun to read.

Remember nothing quite cures the blues like some sunshine, pizza (or wings), jack daniels, and some cocaine!
Posted By: Angry Bear

Thanks, one and all, for all the kind words and well-wishes. I would prefer to pull the plug on this thing, even if only temporarily, should the quality begin to recede. If it ever gets bad, I'll talk to Larry about possibily featuring some of you guys who've been around since the beginning and have been such stalwart supporters of this column. Otherwise, I'll continue to feature you all here in COMMENTPALOOZA as my co-stars.

Schmoove, the thing that bugged me most (no pun intended) about THE BEES was that they looked like they should be coaching little girls' soccer, and especially that little buzzy-bee wings thing they'd do with their arms when they'd be trying to rally. Even if I had been enjoying the match up unto that point, that was the absolute deal-breaker. I couldn't do anything but laugh.

Dood! I totally thought about you when I saw your ODDITIES 2009 gang all hit the ring last week! I was like, Holy shit! They even got ALL four of them! I think that deserves a Slammy. It's on its way! Well done!

Bear, I think I'm done with cocaine (although that last time in the Jacuzzi with that other nekked body and the absinthe was certainly one for the books…!), I prefer vodka to Jack, but I can look into the sunshine (no real choice here in LA once this June Gloom lifts for the season) and pizza…! Thanks again!!!

Holy shit, I forgot how awesome the Michael Hayes music video was. I love the old, fat studio musicians trying to look all hair metal. And the old woman looks like CCH Pounder from the Shield. WWE really needs to create a rock star, or band, and then have them make a really bad music video like this. That would be so fucking awesome.

And how was Garvin not a Freebird? He was all but an unofficial member while in World Class. The NWA capitalizing on that wasn't stupid.
Posted By: Guest#2653

Garvin's inclusion on the WCCW DVD with Hayes and Roberts qualifies him as a Freebird.
Posted By: icon zeke

I'm being a stickler here, and I'll tell you why. To me, the original trio were three different kinds of wrestling talent coming together to create the perfect sum of their parts, whereas it seemed more to me that Hayes & Garvin were quite similar, thus, the FREEBIRD gimmick didn't really apply to them. Don't get me wrong, I more than bought them as team, just not as FREEBIRDS, does that make sense…?

Edge and Christian, Hardy Boyz, Dudley Boyz, RVD and Sabu, and APA. These are reasons to LIKE tag team wrestling. I find it exciting to watch these tag teams from recent history of the division. Then you have crappy teams like Los Colons (yes i said it because they are NOT exciting and were only brought together because Carlito is a crybaby and wanted to leave). Thank you WWE for the PG-13'ish entertainment. Whether the rating is PG-13 or not, people WILL watch it more or less. WWE parental rating shows are stupid, gawd I miss the good ol' days of violence and great storylines, building tag teams up and winning titles. Now they practically give away the foreshadowing of who will win.

Rhodes and Dibiase UTTC by the BASH guara-DAMN-teed!
Posted By: guest1228

I completely agree with all assessments, 1228. Well, except for THE APA, which hasn't held up for me, despite my admiration for Faarooq/Ron Simmons. One of my favorite tag team matches ever has to be the DUDLEYZ/HARDYZ tag team ladder match from ROYAL RUMBLE 2000. Again, back to the Mikey/Bourne discussion, that was a wicked brutal match, but it also told a clear traditional story with modern toys. Greatness.

Carlito bashing is always welcome in this column.

geoff, do you have someone from wwe creative looking over your shoulder as you type your articles? i couldn't help but grin when i read your suggestion of pairing priceless with the colons and then when i watched raw that night, lo and behold, common sense prevailed and they did just as you said!

granted it's all a good month or two too late. they should have had them going for the tag belts after backlash, when they held their own pretty decently against trips and co.
and up to that point, they'd done a fair job of pushing them - having cody be a survivor for orton's team at survivor series and both dibiase and cody be in the final four of the royal rumble were pretty nice rubs to give them, only for them to be wasted with the whole angle involving shane.
the backlash match they were in and dibiase's solo efforts against batista on smackdown and carlito and cena on superstars were nearly on they're way for making up for it, but then they kept priceless with orton too long, so they just turned into whipping boys for orton's rivals.

also with regard to bulldog, you raise a fair point there - maybe he would have stayed if he had a bigger spot, but the thing about davey was a lot was about his image, remember how he re-signed with vince when owen died? apparently he was saying he was going to launch a comeback in tribute to him, a big part of him doing this was to make him look good. i think in 97, he'd still have been likely to have followed the tide of "wwf's a sinking ship" and how the screwjob was the most disgusting thing in wrestling ever, in an effort to make him look good.

i seem to recall in bret's book that vince warned bischoff away from owen, and that he'd sue if bret tried to broker a deal for owen in wcw. plus you had the fact that owen was such a nice guy anyway, it must have been heartbreaking at the time.
Posted By: DaJ

Thanks, DaJ, although with two tag teams on the brand (no, I don't count Goldust & Horny since they're just there to get a laugh), it was a matter of time before they locked horns. And don't let's count our Gobbledegookers before they hatch, there's no proof at all that McMahonagement will see this through to any kind of outcome. They were likely just killing time or remembering that bit in the creative meeting to get PRICELESS over apart from Randy Orton (which is when Michael Cole started in with his "My GOD, King, look at DiBiase…he's like…like a mirror image of Orton! Crap).

I don't think it's too late at all, they just need to be CONSISTENT with the way they handle the kids! If you give them a solid tag outing, follow it up!!! Don't just have Cole Slaw telling Lawler about the amazing match they had on Superstars as Shane fucking McMahon beats the hell out of them with a kendo stick! How long were they laid out on the staging last week as Tri made his TRIumphant return? THAT's what kills believability and credibility.

As far as Smith, it strikes me that lack of singular identity was an issue he had in his professional career, so you're likely right.

The Outsiders was the greatest tag team in wresting history. They had a great big man Kevin Nash, Medium size man Scott Hall , and six pac the greatest cruiseweight all time. Varsty club second great angle and all three could wrestle. Fuck those IWC spot fest monkeys the hardy boys and the rockers. Too much wwf bias on these site.
Posted By: ek 187

I'm of the opinion that, as much as I love and respect them, especially Big Kev, these two guys gave their best performances to The WWF before they jumped to WCW in 1996, and, even if that's incorrect, they were so surrounded in the mess the nWo became that they never really were much of a tag team, just the two of them, that I saw (and, mind you, this was when I all but swore off WCW but for the CruiserWeights and a few other talents who all made it to The WWF in a couple years anyway).

Besides, this was about tag teams, and including XPac made the trio The WolfPac, disqualifying them from tag team discussion. Same for THE VARSITY CLUB. They were a stable, as well. I don't have the energy to address your whining, but I'm sure you'll find that non-WWF biased site of you keep looking. Run along and get to that.

That's all for this week! Thanks for reading; RESPECK!