If I Could Be Serious For A Moment 06.23.09: Real Mythbusting
Posted by Chris Lansdell on 06.23.2009
After last week's unintentional tease, I take a look at one of the Internet's most pervasive pro wrestling myths.
Greetings, humanity! Welcome back to If I Could Be Serious for a Moment, your weekly dose of intelligent wrestling discourse with me, Chris Lansdell. OK folks, mea culpa. I realise now that titling me column "Mythbusters" may have been slightly misleading when all I was doing was giving an objective view on some popular internet opinions. We'll be making that up to you this week. Of course we can't do that before we do the
BANNER!
Serious Feedback
Uhh..MVP is also on the wrong side of 35...
Posted By: MissyNEVERWearssocksWithShoes (Guest) on June 17, 2009 at 01:48 AM
So he is. That's why I had "younger" in inverted commas.
I may be in the minority but I dont want Punk as a full on heel, push him as a tweener and let the fans decide about him. Some can boo some can cheer and leave it at that, Punk knows his character better than anyone and would be able to "walk the line" perfectly.
Posted By: Brad (Guest) on June 17, 2009 at 01:51 AM
You're definitely in the majority on the internet, but it seems like that's exactly what they ARE doing with Punk. Anything that keeps him at the top is fine by me.
I think you're too hard on Joe. He could be the companies top man. He hasn't been booked properly since his X Division title run.
Posted By: Guest#1689 (Guest) on June 17, 2009 at 10:54 AM
I'd be interested to know if you're as optimistic about Joe after Sunday's PPV. He's got a lot of heat to regain before I can consider him a top guy again.
I have no issue with the old head ruling TNA. My issue is with the oldies who have no business being in a ring at all. Jarrett, Angle, Sting, and Booker can all put on passable to great matches. Nash, Steiner, and Foley make me want to cry watching these legends ache and grimace through routine moves and bumps.
As for Cena, the hate is unwarranted. Whoever is the most popular star is also the most hated by the IWC.
Posted By: rey (Guest) on June 17, 2009 at 11:17 AM
It never used to be that way though Rey. I'm not sure when it became cool to hate the top face, but I wish it hadn't happened.
As far as TNA is concerned, you pretty much nailed it. Even Douglas and Raven looked good on Sunday compared with how Nash and Steiner normally look. Foley rolled back the clock somewhat but he can't do that every time out. They hae a purpose but it's not being at the top of the card, or near it.
I think turning Cena heel would be a money maker. Have him turn on someone at WM, put him in a suit the next night on Raw.
Posted By: Picone44 (Guest) on June 17, 2009 at 12:18 PM
That MIGHT stop the haters from cheering him, and it would certainly be a swerve nobody saw, but it would only make money against the right face, someone who is on the verge of breaking through. I don't see that person on Raw right now.
Daniels not being pushed is a crime against nature. He has been three different characters. He has been over each time.
Then you have Shelton. Ricky Steamboat, Bret Hart, Chris Benoit, Harley Race and many other greats didn't need mic work to get over. They did it in the ring.
Posted By: jd (Guest) on June 17, 2009 at 12:40 PM
Yes, they did it in the ring. At a time when mic work was far less important, when people cared about match quality and when managers were far more prevalent. Bret Hart's mic skill was a lot better than the rest of that group, and Benoit got over because of his intensity, which Shelton hasn't shown. Daniels did NOT get three characters over. He got the Fallen Angel over. Curry Man would be over with anyone marginally athletic under the mask, and Kaz got Suicide over. I like Daniels and think he can do things for TNA, but not as their saviour.
Punk might end up one step below Jericho on the "the truth hurts" meter as far as heelness goes. Where Jericho is antagonistic is his comments, Punk can come across as more arrogant and cocky. They could easily form a beneficial relationship - they "get" each other. Say Punk would be wrestling Jeff Hardy one night in the main event - Jericho would be the one to attack Jeff backstage, making Punk's victory easier. And you could have Punk do the innocent interference during (say) Jericho's match with Rey Rey.
Posted By: BobbyC (Guest) on June 17, 2009 at 01:34 PM
This isn't a bad idea. Maybe even expand that alliance until Jericho wanted a title shot, turning on Punk. The association with Jericho does run the risk of overshadowing Punk as champion though, which is something they'd have to be very careful with.
The Punk love stems from the fact that he's practically a wholly non-WWE character existing in WWE. The IWC is ready, willing, and able to get behind him because he's not a Vince creation but is still a main eventer in Vince's very protected company. It's akin to the pride you feel when other people start to get behind the underground band you've loved for years.
I'd argue that SmackDown has a great balance right now. And it's so far removed from Raw that a discussion of all major companies should probably read WWE-SD, WWE-R, TNA, and ROH.
Posted By: neverAcquiesce (Guest) on June 17, 2009 at 03:35 PM
It's been my experience that people who like underground bands STOP liking them when others catch on. That's irrelevant though. Your point about Punk is well made, and I can only think of 3 other people who were essentially the same character in WWE as they were elsewhere: Booker T, Goldberg and Scott Steiner. Not a bad group to which to belong.
The reason MVP seems to be floundering is because his cockiness as a heel has been diminished (which could be the same argument for Cena, but it's established that he's on another level)."
Same for Morrison. And even though John gains footing thanks to a crowd-pleasing moveset, he'll still only go so far as a vanilla babyface. He doesn't have the mic skills Cena has nor were fans clamouring for his face turn as they were back in 2003 for Cena. He's another unfortunate case of a fascinating heel character having his proverbial balls chopped off to get cheered.
Posted By: neverAcquiesce (Guest) on June 17, 2009 at 05:29 PM
The thing with Morrison is that he has the wrestling skills that Cena doesn't. He's not horrible on the mic (The Dirt Sheet was amazing) and I think with practice he'll get it. I do agree he needs to develop that aspect to take the next step, but if he keeps having four-star matches every time out he's going to want to hurry.
You want to push somebody? Give Chavo Guerrero a bigger role on raw. He's still got it in the ring and on the mic. He cn make me laugh or make me think he's crazy. He's is so underated.
Posted By: Ronny (Guest) on June 17, 2009 at 06:30 PM
There's a lot of that. Jamie Noble, William Regal and even Finlay are all being underused based on the skills they have. The thing is, those skills are either just not valued by the big wigs or they're not in the kind of package they want.
I take issue with the writer suggesting that the Cena hate is limited only to the IWC (I'd wager that he gets more respect from us than he gets from your average male fan above the age of 16 or so). I do think he's right on the money about turning Cena heel: Why do people want that when the chances are that he'll only end up being cheered again, keeping the cycle going?
Posted By: AJP (Guest) on June 17, 2009 at 06:38 PM
There is a growing segment of internet fans who are done hating Cena, but the teenage boys who boy him do it because they think it's cool. You ask them why they're booing and most of the will say "Because he sucks" or something equally adult. It's not that they don't like him, they just think they shouldn't like him.
Why doesn't anyone ever mention Carlito? He's a major heel waiting in the wings. The "Backstabber" finisher is the perfect finisher for a heel, he's good on the mic, and he eats apples. Apples could work just as well as CM Punk's straight edge heel gimmick especially with the obesity in America. Vince wants to appeal to kids? Well eat apples not candy kiddies. He's got so much potential but unfortunately I don't think we'll ever see it.
Posted By: Burnout (Guest) on June 17, 2009 at 07:06 PM
Carlito has had his chances but kept blowing them. I think know he's stuck in the midcard for the foreseeable future. Carlito's in a good place now, let's not jeopardies that.
Let's start with the pure nonsense. I highly doubt Cena is gay, and even if he is...so what?
===========================
1) Why do you "highly doubt" it? Because he's not effeminate and stereotypical? Most gay men are not obvious. You only recognize the ones that are stereotypes. I imagine most gay wrestlers would stay well in the closet for their career's sake.
2) But I do I agree with you: so what if he is?
Posted By: MDK (Guest) on June 18, 2009 at 09:26 AM
It has nothing to do with being obviously gay. It has to do with the rumoured relationships with women, as well as the confirmed ones. Although I'm generally good at picking out gay people, I get none of this vibes from Cena.
Posted By: Guest#0613 (Guest) on June 20, 2009 at 02:41 AM
A Real Myth To Bust
As a business based on exaggerated drama, physicality and staged conflict, it really is no surprise that numerous urban legends have sprung up about the world of professional wrestling. From the downright disgusting (Rocky Morton used to lie under a glass table while hookers defecated on it and Robert Gibson watched) to the out-and-out silly (Big Show is Andre the Giant's son) to bordering on libellous (Vince McMahon had Owen Hart killed), the stories have run the gamut. Most of them are so ludicrous that they don't even bear examining. Some have been confirmed. One particular story has been so virile, so persistent and so ignored by the protagonists that it sprouted numerous theories, each of which is stated as incontrovertible fact by its proponents. It is, of course, the issue between Vince McMahon and Randy Savage. With his recently-released DVD flying high in the charts, what better time than now to take an in-depth look at wrestling's most persistent rumour? So how do we know there was an issue? What are the suggestions being presented as fact?
The facts
Randy Savage left WWF in 1994 to go to WCW, leaving at the end of his contract because WCW offered him a spot as an active wrestler, which the WWF were not willing to do. According to a neutral-ish third party (Bret Hart in his autobiography), Savage called Vince while Vince was drinking and quit over the phone. From the time he left until the release of his DVD this year, there was close to no mention of the man on WWE television. He was not excluded from other DVDs or classic PPVs shown on WWE on Demand, but by the same token he also did not get a DVD set when contemporaries like Roddy Piper, Jake Roberts and Curt Hennig (none of whom held major gold in WWE) were getting theirs. Not only has he not been inducted to the Hall of Fame (despite everyone from Koko B Ware to Hulk Hogan being inducted from his era), he hasn't even been invited to attend, let alone induct anyone. Until this year's Legends of Wrestlemania game, he had been excluded from video game releases as well. Only two other people have been subjected to a similar cold shoulder: Ultimate Warrior, and Chris Benoit.
While we can say with certainty that Savage did nothing on the same plane as Benoit, we don't know that for sure about Warrior. Warrior was in McMahon's bad books for repeatedly holding Vince up for more money, even going so far as refusing on the night of a pay per view to perform unless Vince agreed to pay him more. Warrior was also hard to deal with and emotionally erratic. One has only to look at the DVD that was released of Warrior's career to see where that path leads.
Savage was a huge name in the mid-to-late 80s for WWF, having memorable matches with Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior, Ric Flair and of course Ricky Steamboat. He held the WWF title on two occasions and was generally viewed as second only to Hogan in terms of importance to the company at that time. He was not the first person to jump ship to WCW, nor was he the highest-profile person to do so. Many of those who did jump would later return to open arms, but not Savage. So the obvious question is: Why not?
Theory the first: Savage deflowered an underage Stephanie McMahon Likelihood:Slim to none
By far the most prevalent reason given by internet fans is that Savage slept with Stephanie (some have even suggested that she was an unwilling participant) when she was 14, and that either Vince found out, or Savage bragged about it to him. I've heard some outlandish drivel in my time, but this takes the cake. As a father myself I can guarantee you that if someone did that to my child, willing or not, I would have to be constantly restrained from sawing off their genitalia with a rusty blunt spoon. Vince is a lot of things but he's not the type to take something like that lying down. Even if he didn't want to get his hands dirty I doubt he would have had much trouble finding someone to kneecap Savage, at the very least.
In the unlikely event that Vince chose to take no action, you still need to wonder why none of the boys backstage would have taken it upon themselves to do something about it. Young Stephanie was a popular figure backstage and you have to believe SOMEONE would have gone after Randy, if not out of the ring then in it. And there's the small matter of her husband, who you'd have to believe would be fairly pissed off if there was any truth to this rumour.
Leaving aside the option of clandestine beatdowns, perhaps because Vince didn't want to risk a trail leading back to him, there's still the small matter of legality. Willing or no, sex with an underage person is illegal. Vince McMahon is also not the type to let things go, and if Savage really had done this Vince would have been on the phone to the district attorney or what have you faster than you can blink. There is no reason for Vince not to do so. There would have been no ramifications for Stephanie and, if true, Savage would have been in serious trouble. People who mess with kids don't last very long in jail.
The final issue is one of timing, and this is why I give the rumour a slight chance of being true (albeit minus the underage part). Savage left the WWF in 1994, when Stephanie was 18. It seems unlikely that this event would have been kept quiet for 4 years, especially with the sort of atmosphere prevalent in a male-dominated locker room. If instead something had happened between 1992 and 1994, there is every chance that it would have been legal (the age of consent in Connecticut is 16, for example). If Savage really did keep it quiet for 4 years and only said it as a parting shot to Vince on the way out the door (figuratively), it becomes very likely that Savage only said it to piss Vince off. If Bret's version of events (above) are true, and we have no reason to think otherwise, then there was certainly an opportunity for Savage to say something to Vince. If he did and Vince knew it wasn't true, it might explain some of the animosity: what sort of insensitive prick says that about another man's daughter?
Theory the Second – Savage walked out with no notice and quit over the phone Likelihood:Mmmmmayyyybe...
Well at least this one is sensible. People who believe this often point to the example of Lex Luger, who did something very similar and never showed up in WWE again, is not in the Hall of Fame and hasn't had a DVD set. There are differences between them though, mainly that McMahon didn't make Luger. It's long been said that Vince has a real problem promoting anyone whose career he did not shape (with people like Ric Flair being a rare exception). Savage's career was made in the WWF, and as such that would normally put him a step ahead of Luger in Vince's eyes. Luger has also had a lot of personal demons in the past few years that would create some very adverse publicity for Vince and company.
My doubt around this theory is that Vince has had far worse done to him by people who have since returned to the company.
Hulk Hogan, Scott Hall and Kevin Nash are three perfect examples. The three men that triggered the Monday Night War all left WWF and almost put Vince out of business, then were brought back. Several times, in Hogan's case. It's not like Savage reneged on a contract, or agreed to stay and then left. He just walked at the end of his deal and found another job.
The thing is, so did Rick Rude. He's not in the Hall of Fame, he wasn't asked to come back to WWF/E at any point and he is hardly ever referenced on any WWE shows. Although he didn't mean as much to WWF as Savage did, there's enough doubt to shade this theory into the purple for me.
Theory the third: Hogan says no Likelihood:I doubt it...
It's no secret that Hulk Hogan and Randy Savage do NOT see eye to eye. It stems back to Savage's treatment of Liz during their breakup, if you believe the prevalent rumour, but either way the enmity is real. One has only to listen to Savage's music video "Be A Man" to know that. Hogan carries a lot of weight in WWF/E (well, he used to), and if he said to Vince "Don't bring Savage in", Vince would have listened.
Or would he? Sure if Vince needed Hogan to do something in the near future, he may well have put any Savage plans on hold. But when you consider that the Hogan-McMahon relationship has had more ups and downs than RVD on April 20, it's hard to fathom that this could be the only reason for the lack of Macho after 1994.
In addition, the rehiring of Matt Hardy with Edge on the roster is proof positive that if Vince sees a chance to make a buck, he really doesn't care whose feelings get hurt in the process. What's that? You want to see the video? Oh OK...
Minor theories All rank very low on the probability scale
It's possible that Vince was also not happy with Savage's treatment of Liz when they split up in 1992. Although there are no confirmed reports of any misdeeds, it's been rumoured that nasty words were exchanged and that Randy was far from the ideal husband. Whether or not this is true, it seems very strange that Vince would hold a grudge for so long over someone who ultimately left WWF for WCW as well.
Here's also a possibility that Savage was instrumental in the defections of Hall, Nash, Luger, Rude and others from WWF to WCW. Although this would certainly explain some anger on Vince's part, the popular opinion is that Bischoff himself was always open to being contacted by WWF guys. Flair suggested Hogan, Hogan suggested Savage...and yet both of those guys have been brought in. Very few men left WWF and went straight to WCW.
An intriguing possibility is that it wasn't Stephanie that Randy slept with...it was Linda. I believe that about as much as I believe that he will go into the Hall of Fame this year. There seems to be no basis for this rumour other than people grasping at straws.
So what's likely?
To be honest, it seems to me that the most likely option is some combination of walking out, pissing off Hogan, being an asshole to Liz and making inappropriate remarks. Whatever it was, it seems Vince is partially over it since Savage's DVD set was not a "self-destruction" type of deal. What happens from here remains to be seen, but Vince isn't the kind to do things by halves.
All of these rumours fuelled by the silence of Savage in particular. It's very unusual that Savage has no book out and, until this month, had nothing at all out on his life and career. We do know that McMahon bristles at the mere mention of Savage's name, and it was considered taboo within WWE to even acknowledge Savage in front of McMahon. McMahon has made it clear over the years that bringing Savage back is out of the question and not up for debate. Obviously this stance has softened somewhat, hopefully to the degree that allows Savage to take up his rightful place in the Hall of Fame.
Moment over.
Serious Tweet of the Week
What pro wrestling urban legend is the most ridiculous?
Jeremy:
Probably the Ultimate Warrior one. he died so many years ago and got replaced yadda yadda yadda. True he died, but returned as a ghost to keep wrestling? How else do you explain the fact that he was laughing at hogan in the mirror, or dissapeared from the ring????
Criss Wolfman:
What about Macho Man deflowering Stephanie?
Joe Forbess:
Wait.. you mean Warrior didn't actually disappear from the ring and laugh through the mirror? Next you'll be telling me that Santa Claus doesn't exist.
Jake Ziegler:
Sid most certainly did not poop himself at WrestleMania 13.
Ryan Byers:
The original Ultimate Warrior died (due to steroid use, naturally) and that the guy who ran-in at the end of Wrestlemania VIII was a different guy portraying the same character. It never got much play on the internet, but everybody I've talked to tells the story of how that was a story that floated around their elementary school playgrounds.
I will never understand how that Warrior rumour ever got beyond a couple of weeks. Dude is still alive now for pity's sakes!
And I'm spent. Don't forget to check out the very cool 2 Raw, 2 Furious with me and Byers, as well as Brace for Impact on Thursday and the ever-awesome MEEHAN on Friday. Stay Cool, Rock Hard.
I still favor theory 2 for Savage's departure and his treatment since. I've been watching the old RAWs on WWE.com leading up to Survivor Series 94 lately. One week Savage is there, promoting the PPV, promoting the WWF, and even hinting at a potential program with Bob Backlund. The next week he's gone, with a little goodbye message from Vince. It seems to me his timing couldn't have been worse in that situation and thats why Vince is holding a grudge.
About the "Sid defecating himself" rumor, no he definitely did not do it at WrestleMania 13. However I'm pretty sure the Undertaker did confirm he did it at one of there house show matches leading up to the PPV.
I gotta say the craziest wrestling rumor I've ever heard was the Sunny-Candido-Ahmed Johnson-Shawn Michaels story. I won't repeat it here but it should be pretty easy to look up and it's just so insane that I always wondered how true it was.
Posted By: BlackoutCreature (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 03:52 PM
i use to believe savage left vince and the wwe high and dry. then you bought up rick rude. he did the same thing with more publicity. yet he is mentioned on wwe tv all the time. they have released rick rude t-shirts. so i really am not sure.
Posted By: rey (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 04:10 PM
Great stuff. While I've heard and thought about the Savage/McMahon conspiracy for years, and each theory is good, I've always thought Savage knows something or did something about/to McMahon that eats at Vince. It seems they are locked into some sort of cold war with neither side directly striking the other. The fact that they both haven't spoken on the subject is telling.
As far as what he knows or what he did, your guess is as good as mine. But you open up a lot of possibilities when you add drugs and alcohol to the mix!
Posted By: stevethegoose (Registered) on June 23, 2009 at 04:29 PM
Great idea for a column. You could write a whole book on wrestling urban legends (patent pending!!!) I personally think it was Savage walking with no notice. It seemed to me that Savage and Vince were buds, and Vince saw it as a slap in the face when he walked. Just one guy's opinion.
Posted By: Crow (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 04:47 PM
Posted By: thegoat (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 05:09 PM
O.K> I have had this argument with numerous people on plenty of occasions and this wont be the last. My take on it.
I truly believe that Savage had something to do with Steph and here is why.
#1. McMahnon is a buisness man, Savage= money......why wouldnt he release a REAL Savage DVD. If anyone deserves a true Biography DVD with all the trimings it is him.
2. With all the problems going on in WWF at the time (steriods being the biggest), Savage may know a lot of those demons in the closet of Vince.
3. This goes with number two. As you said if someone did that to my daughter (something that seems to be consentual)(sic?) i would press the charges, ect. ect......would you do that if the person that you would be repoting had not only recieved roids from you, but has proof you TOLD hime to take them, and also proof HE PAID FOR THEM? Who would get the worst Savage or Vince. Perfectly good reason for this to have happend but why it has never came out on either side.
4. Vince or Savage HAVE NEVER SPOKEN ON THIS SUBJECT. We only get info from a third party. To me it seems that both are like "I aint sayin shit because he is not going to get me".
I know that this just may be a "myth" and I think it only has a chance to be 25% true but hey it may not be as far from the truth as you think.
Posted By: nokinoutallbums (Registered) on June 23, 2009 at 05:18 PM
If Savage did indeed quit while drunk it's very possible an angry, "I fucked your daughter!" could come out. The first person Vince would ask would obviously be Stephanie and if she vehemently denied it ever happening he'd chalk it up as a drunken parting shot. Maybe he tells someone as a way of showing of insane Randy is, who tells someone else, who tells someone else, and BANG: rumor started. I bet the real story is something far less conspiracy theory worthy seeing how the DVD is finally out. We'll see Savage on WWE programming before we see Warrior or Jarrett.
"I gotta say the craziest wrestling rumor I've ever heard was the Sunny-Candido-Ahmed Johnson-Shawn Michaels story. I won't repeat it here but it should be pretty easy to look up and it's just so insane that I always wondered how true it was."
Never heard it but found it easily enough and that's fucked up. I was going through some old tapes and found the 1997 Slammy Awards and was shocked to hear Triple H say something to the effect of, "[Sunny's] only talent is something you can't show on TV and I got a best friend who says she isn't very good at that, either." Can't blame Shawn if it's true, though. All I wanted in 1997 was Sunny, too.
Posted By: neverAcquiesce (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 05:51 PM
Actually McMahaon didn't really push Flair (considering who he was) that much the first time around. It was only on the major downside of the Nature Boy's career that he really got the air time.
As for Vince's dislike of Savage, here is one thing about the idea of it being a combination of all of the above - as a wrestling promoter, Vince is always around self-centered assholes who would fail in any professional environment. How would Savage really stick out to such an extent that it earns a decade plus of hatred?
As for HHH harboring any hate because of a possible Steph-Savage hook-up - that was before his time with the company. They weren't in the promotion at the same time and if Steph was willing he might not care anyways. HHH-Steph were a couple about a decade after any alleged Steph-Savage incident.
Posted By: Guest#4788 (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 05:56 PM
I had never seen the infamous Macho Man music video. I had heard the song, but they video is hilarious. Well worth the 30-minute obligatory dial up wait.
Posted By: the dude (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 06:42 PM
"Very few men left WWF and went straight to WCW."
Are you serious?
Posted By: Gerald (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 06:47 PM
I doubt there is any animosity between Savage and Vince. Savage was given a farewell on Raw by Vince himself when he was set to leave to WCW.
Could simply be a monetary issue, and politics.
Posted By: Krowe (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 07:17 PM
"Never heard it but found it easily enough and that's fucked up. I was going through some old tapes and found the 1997 Slammy Awards and was shocked to hear Triple H say something to the effect of, "[Sunny's] only talent is something you can't show on TV and I got a best friend who says she isn't very good at that, either." Can't blame Shawn if it's true, though. All I wanted in 1997 was Sunny, too."
Can't say if the Ahmed rumor is true but Sunny has confirmed in shoot interviews that she slept with Shawn. Shawn, being a total prick at the time, somehow spun that into Sunny having an affair with Bret (pretty sure he mentioned during one of their on-screen confrontations back in '97), which ultimately led to Bret getting a divorce around that time. Not that Bret wasn't into the whoring (by his own admission), but this was one of the few times he was actually innocent. Both Bret and Sunny have repeatedly denied that one. So yeah, the truth is still as weird as the fiction.
Posted By: Guest#0038 (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 07:42 PM
Another reason why the Savage/Steph story doesn't stick is that Vince would have jumped all over WCW for hiring a pedophile, the Billionaire Ted skits would have been peanuts compared to the amount shit Vince would have gave WCW if the rumor was true.
Even with the steroid trial, Vince would have taken legal action and probably gotten more sympathy than wearing a neck brace. I doubt Vince is so much of an asshole that he's worried about repercussions of Savage testifying against Vince in the steroid trial, no one's going to side with a pedophile and no one would believe one. So the Steph rumor can be thrown out.
I honestly think Vince and Savage were legitimately close, closer than Vince/Hogan were. Savage quit on him during the company's low point I think Vince really thought he was doing Savage a favor by keeping him on as commentator. Hogan was retired and called out of it when WCW signed him. I think it's a combination of Savage leaving being really the firs big star to jump ship to WCW, his rivalry with Hogan and really just bad timing, plus Savage seems like a real private person.
Posted By: D-Man (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 07:44 PM
You think Bret Hart's mic work is " a lot better" than that of Harley Race's? Really? You need to watch more Harley Race promos.
Anyone remember the Raw right after Savage left? Vince gave him quite a classy send-off from the commentary table. A little 2 minute farewell speech to him, so I think that Savage might well have not left on too bad a term but managed to piss Vince off immensely in the years following.
Posted By: ButchReedMark (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 07:46 PM
had never seen the infamous Macho Man music video. I had heard the song, but they video is hilarious. Well worth the 30-minute obligatory dial up wait.
Posted By: the dude (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 06:42 PM
Wait. Wait. Wait.
How long did you wait for a video??
30 minutes??
Is that still possible in 2009??
If that's the case and you aren't upgrading, I suggest you just give up on this whole internet thing!
What the hell does your connection cost you a month? $0?
Posted By: What?!?! (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 07:46 PM
Posted By: thegoat (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 05:09 PM
In the Raven/Honky Tonk Man Shoot, they go over ALL of those rumors. That is one of the best shoots going!!
Posted By: Check it out! (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 07:48 PM
This is the craziest one I have heard
That Lita pretty much slept with the entire OMEGA roster which included...
Matt Hardy
Jeff Hardy
Joey Matthews
Christian York
Shane Helms
Mike Maverick
Cham Pain
Shannon Moore
Venom
Otto Schwanz
Sweet Dreams
Caprice Coleman
Steve Corino
Black Skull
Got pi**** on by Steve Corino and Danny Doring
Traded sexual favours for training in Mexico since she had no money.
Was the sex toy of El Dandy
Used to be a stripper (which she said in her book)
Matt Hardy may be bi and Lita definitely is bi.
While on an indie tour in Peru, Lita was s****** off an Indy guy. A quote from a source said..."I hadn't ja**** it in like 3 weeks and I tried to smarten her up, but she wouldn't listen. I c*** like a ****ing geyser and she swallowed the WHOLE thing."
Lita was the local groupie of Richmond punk bands.
I've also heard that there were constant bisexual orgies in the OMEGA locker room and a indy promoter had once saw during one of his shows a long time ago he saw Lita and Luna Vachon making out backstage, then when Luna saw him watching them, she tried to beat the crap out of him.
but this is the most random i have ever heard....The Iron Shiek used to do headstands while snorting coke
Posted By: Ryan (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 07:59 PM
What is this rumour about Sunny, Candido, Ahmed and Shawn? Did Chris hand her around so he could get a bigger push or something? If so, I can kinda understand Shawn, but why the blue hell would he give her to Ahmed Fucking Johnson?
Posted By: smithy84 (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 08:11 PM
lol. It's not my computer and yes i have suggested an upgrade several times. Dial Up actually costs more because nobody has it unless that's absolutely the only one they can get. or if you're stubborn like my mom is.
Posted By: the dude (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 08:16 PM
What is this rumour about Sunny, Candido, Ahmed and Shawn? Did Chris hand her around so he could get a bigger push or something? If so, I can kinda understand Shawn, but why the blue hell would he give her to Ahmed Fucking Johnson?
Posted By: smithy84 (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 08:11 PM
Here it is......
Ahmed Johnson did a lot of coke back around 1996 at the height of his WWF pay. I don't think I have to tell you that Chris and Tammy enjoy their fair share of nose candy. Well once they had blown through their cash but were still jonesing, they got desparate. They asked Ahmed for an eight ball on credit. He laughed and said, "Black people don't believe in credit. But we can barter." Chris asked what he wanted and Ahmed nodded in her direction. Chris looked at Tammy who shrugged before he said, "Well hey don't hurt her, okay?" So like twenty minutes later Ahmed finishes and Tammy leaves his room with the tiny, paper envelope. Instead of going back and using it with Chris (who was in their room freaking out), she did the coke with Shawn Michaels and spent the night in his room. A few hours later a frantic Candido starts banging on Ahmed's door. Ahmed answers the door and Candido asks, "Is Tammy here?" Ahmed shrugs and Chris says, "Where the fuck is Tammy?" Ahmed says he doesn't know because she left hours ago. Candido immediately abandons his search and says, "Well did she take the dope with her?" The next morning he still hasn't seen Tammy so he goes to the front desk where he runs into Shawn Michaels in the lobby. Shawn walks up to Candido and pushes a nostril close, sniffs, and says, "Thanks for the bump, Chris." Chris asked where Tammy was and Shawn said, "She's probably back in your room now." Candido stormed up to see her, got in a big argument, went to the building, and quit on the spot. The agent told him he couldn't quit w/o a written notice. So he picked up a booking sheet, flipped it over, and wrote: "I quit. Chris Candido" And that was the end of his WWF career.
theres a lot more here, http://www.angelfire.com/wrestling3/kotdm15/listsleeze.html
Posted By: Ryan (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 09:33 PM
What is this rumour about Sunny, Candido, Ahmed and Shawn? Did Chris hand her around so he could get a bigger push or something? If so, I can kinda understand Shawn, but why the blue hell would he give her to Ahmed Fucking Johnson?
Posted By: smithy84 (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 08:11 PM
Just check out that link that someone else posted. It's number 205.
Posted By: BlackoutCreature (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 09:38 PM
Lita rumors are all true...she really is a cum dumpster. Her time in RVA was spent stripping (where she briefly trained at...Kyda Pro, I think) and trolling punk bands.
Mickie James also stripped in Richmond (the "waitress at an Olive Garden" is part BS...although I do know which one she worked at, as well as which clubs she danced at as Alexis...yes, her indy name is her stripper name as well).
I think the best wrestling myth I can think of is Bret fucking Sunny. They both continue to deny it, but the guy she was REALLY fucking at the time (HBK...that's right, NOT Candido) said they did.
Also heard something about Sunny blowing Joey Matthews/Mercury while giving Sabu a handjob in the boiler room of the ECW arena...but it came from Sandman, so who knows if it's true.
Posted By: Ramsey (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 09:40 PM
Savage was mistreated while he was IN there. Just like Vince did with Bret Hart a few years later, look how quickly Savage was marginalized. After his feud with Hogan ended, he was turned into a JTTS for quite a while. Look how quickly Savage went down the tubes once he won his second title.
Maybe Vince is so pissed off because Savage did the one thing nobody else ever did...he told Vince off. Even Bret Hart tried to kiss Vince's ass at the end. Maybe Savage told him "You know what, Vince? You know SHIT about wrestling".
Posted By: MissyNEVERWearssocksWithShoes (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 09:46 PM
With both Randy Savage and Vince McMahon's ungodly egos and hypermasculinity the world will probably never know the real reason.
Savage will say he walked and Vince will claim he fired him. Sure The Macho Man was batshit insane, but money says he isnt a pedophile. With McMahon's questionable sanity and alleged mob affiliations, do you think Randy Savage would still be alive if he molested Stephanie?
The most logical answer in my opinion would be Savage quit without giving much notice if any reasonable notice which would anger any boss McMahon or McDonalds.
Posted By: son of pillman (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 10:48 PM
a work all the way
Posted By: roottootfreshfrootboot (Guest) on June 24, 2009 at 12:03 AM
The thing about that Candido/Tammy/Ahmed/HBK story is that there's no way to possess all that information unless every one of those people told you the story. And what are the odds of that?
Posted By: KanyonKreist (Registered) on June 24, 2009 at 01:10 AM
The only reason Vince is pissed, is because Savage banged Steph before Vince got his chance.
Posted By: The Gunman (Guest) on June 24, 2009 at 04:04 AM
Meh, I still think the real reason is due to DE MACHO MAN ramming Stephanie so far up the ass that she couldn't walk straight for 2 weeks.
Posted By: aahf (Guest) on June 24, 2009 at 05:36 AM
I'm not saying it's likely, but I do think the Stephanie rumor is possible and the reason that Vince never pressed charges about it or mentioned it are plausible.
If something like that did happen to his daughter then 1) She could have been legal and no action could be taken or 2) If she was underage, maybe he just didn't want to put that information out there. It would have been all over the place and ruined her life, conviction or not. This way, it's just some stupid Internet rumor.
Posted By: guest (Guest) on June 24, 2009 at 10:25 AM
"Shawn, being a total prick at the time, somehow spun that into Sunny having an affair with Bret (pretty sure he mentioned during one of their on-screen confrontations back in '97), which ultimately led to Bret getting a divorce around that time."
Yup, the infamous "Sunny days" comment. It was a horrible thing for Shawn to do since the only reason for doing so is to fuck up his personal life which in wrestling, like the mafia, is a definite no-no. I can only assume Shawn wanted to stick it to Bret's pure image which we now know is the farthest thing from the truth anyway.
That list of rumors is my at-work reading today.
I have no valid response to that Lita stuff. Wow.
And...Vince has mob connections?
Posted By: neverAcquiesce (Guest) on June 24, 2009 at 11:13 AM
The thing about that Candido/Tammy/Ahmed/HBK story is that there's no way to possess all that information unless every one of those people told you the story. And what are the odds of that?
Posted By: KanyonKreist (Registered) on June 24, 2009 at 01:10 AM
No you wouldn't. I'm not saying the stories true, in fact I'm willing to bet it's not, but it's all told from Candido's perspective. All you would need is for him telling it to someone in a locker room somewhere, them repeating it to someone and it getting out of hand.
As for the Sunny-Bret rumors, while its true she confirmed she was romantically involved with Shawn, didn't she have an incident with Bret a few years back? Something about them being at an autograph session at a wrestling legends show a few months after Candido's death and an "off" Tammy literally throwing herself at Bret?
Posted By: BlackoutCreature (Guest) on June 24, 2009 at 11:38 AM
Rocky Morton used to lie under a glass table while hookers defecated on it and Robert Gibson watched)
this is true
Posted By: Guest#3227 (Guest) on June 24, 2009 at 11:45 AM
My own crazy conspiracy theory that swirls in my mind about Vince/Savage:
Has anyone noticed that there is NO mention of another particular person linked with Savage? Isn't it kind of strange that *she* suddenly fell off the face of the earth as well?
I think there is something more to Hogan/Vince being upset with how Savage was treating Elizabeth after their real-life split. Something along the lines of...I dunno...Someone's BOSS sleeping with her and finding out - which would lead to *both* the divorce AND walking out?
Yes, it is possible that someone - anyone would have said something by now, except for the fact that there is another person in the equation.
Linda McMahon. She probably knows. She is probably holding Vince hostage with this info that if it EVER came out she would divorce him so fast and take 1/2 of the company with her. Vince doesn't want that.
Sure, Savage can come right out and say something, then - in order to ruin Vince...But I think he's still in love with her. When she died - to me, is when Savage became REALLY crazy.
There's my insanity for the day. Now I must re-foil my room so the aliens in FOX News satilites sent by the antiChrist, Barack Obama doesn't eat my brain. I have to keep safe to tell everyone that the KGB and JFK faked the moon landing and then had him killed to keep the secret...secret - FOREVER!!!!
Posted By: The 8th Samurai (Guest) on June 24, 2009 at 12:31 PM
And...Vince has mob connections?
Posted By: neverAcquiesce (Guest) on June 24, 2009 at 11:13 AM
Alleged mob ties, supposedly his grandfather had to pay members of the mafia to promote cards at the Madison Square Garden when they had a great deal of control. A few wrestlers in the organization at that point were supposed to also be tied into the Montreal mob as well (Rougeaus and while stile alive Dino Bravo)
Posted By: son of pillman (Guest) on June 24, 2009 at 03:11 PM
that should have been still not stile and "great deal of control" pertains to the mob's control over sporting events in NYC during the 20s.
Posted By: son of pillman (Guest) on June 24, 2009 at 05:21 PM
There's a variation on the 'Savage fucked Stephanie' rumor which says Savage actually fucked SHANE - and that's why everyone is so tight-lipped about it.
Posted By: Winchell Kormanova III (Guest) on June 25, 2009 at 12:46 AM
The facts
Theory the first: Savage deflowered an underage Stephanie McMahon
Theory the Second – Savage walked out with no notice and quit over the phone
Theory the third: Hogan says no
