If I Could Be Serious For A Moment 06.30.09: Booking 101 - Getting Over
Posted by Chris Lansdell on 06.30.2009
We start a new series looking at how to book wrestling, starting with something that nobody seems to understand right now.
Greetings, humanity! Welcome back to If I Could Be Serious for a Moment, your weekly dose of intelligent wrestling discourse with me, Chris Lansdell. I thoroughly enjoyed getting last week's topic off my chest as it was something that has always bugged me about the internet. I may well return to some of the other urban myths at a later date, but I've been wanting to get to this week's topic for a while. It's a series I like to call Booking 101. As always, we'll take at look at your feedback first.
BANNER!
Serious Feedback
I still favor theory 2 for Savage's departure and his treatment since. I've been watching the old RAWs on WWE.com leading up to Survivor Series 94 lately. One week Savage is there, promoting the PPV, promoting the WWF, and even hinting at a potential program with Bob Backlund. The next week he's gone, with a little goodbye message from Vince. It seems to me his timing couldn't have been worse in that situation and that's why Vince is holding a grudge.
About the "Sid defecating himself" rumor, no he definitely did not do it at WrestleMania 13. However I'm pretty sure the Undertaker did confirm he did it at one of there house show matches leading up to the PPV.
I gotta say the craziest wrestling rumor I've ever heard was the Sunny-Candido-Ahmed Johnson-Shawn Michaels story. I won't repeat it here but it should be pretty easy to look up and it's just so insane that I always wondered how true it was.
Posted By: BlackoutCreature (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 03:52 PM
The idea that Savage left Vince high and dry is certainly the most credible of the theories out there, and if I had to pick one it would be that. It was a terrible time to leave WWF but Vince is above all a businessman. He had to realise that a guy with no contract he wanted to wrestle again wasn't going to stay with his company when they weren't going to let him wrestle. If he was truly pissed off by the defection, why would he give the goodbye address on Raw? He could have buried him like he did Bret.
I too remember Taker confirming the defecation rumour at a house show. And the Sunny story...all I can say is it wouldn't surprise me, and it ties in with other rumours. But still…it's like another world, isn't it? What you see is NOT what you get.
I use to believe Savage left Vince and the WWE high and dry. Then you bought up Rick Rude. He did the same thing with more publicity. Yet he is mentioned on WWE TV all the time. They have released Rick Rude t-shirts. So I really am not sure.
Posted By: rey (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 04:10 PM
I don't think Rude is mentioned "all the time" on TV. In fact I cannot remember the last time he was. I also don't remember seeing a Rude shirt after he left, but then again I don't pay very close attention to WWE merchandise. Either way he hasn't had the same high-profile ignoring that Savage has, and for someone who did the same thing with a higher profile (as you correctly pointed out), you have to wonder why.
Great idea for a column. You could write a whole book on wrestling urban legends (patent pending!!!) I personally think it was Savage walking with no notice. It seemed to me that Savage and Vince were buds, and Vince saw it as a slap in the face when he walked. Just one guy's opinion.
Posted By: Crow (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 04:47 PM
The problem with most other urban legends is that they are beyond ridiculous. I thought about doing a while series but the thing is they're so outlandish and near-impossible to debunk that it would be a very boring column.
O.K, I have had this argument with numerous people on plenty of occasions and this wont be the last. My take on it.
I truly believe that Savage had something to do with Steph and here is why.
#1. McMahon is a businessman, Savage= money......why wouldn't he release a REAL Savage DVD. If anyone deserves a true Biography DVD with all the trimmings it is him.
2. With all the problems going on in WWF at the time (steroids being the biggest), Savage may know a lot of those demons in the closet of Vince.
3. This goes with number two. As you said if someone did that to my daughter (something that seems to be consensual) I would press the charges, etc. etc......would you do that if the person that you would be reporting had not only received roids from you, but has proof you TOLD him to take them, and also proof HE PAID FOR THEM? Who would get the worst Savage or Vince? Perfectly good reason for this to have happened but why it has never came out on either side.
4. Vince or Savage HAVE NEVER SPOKEN ON THIS SUBJECT. We only get info from a third party. To me it seems that both are like "I ain't sayin' shit because he is not going to get me".
I know that this just may be a "myth" and I think it only has a chance to be 25% true but hey it may not be as far from the truth as you think.
Posted By: nokinoutallbums (Registered) on June 23, 2009 at 05:18 PM
You do make some good points. A respectful Savage DVD would do better than a self-destruction one if only because he had more longevity in the business. If indeed Savage does have some info on Vince and steroids it MIGHT keep Vince quiet, BUT I'm pretty sure statutory rape would lead to more jail time than supplying steroids. Even if it didn't, steroid dealers aren't likely to be killed in jail like people who mess with minors are. I'll agree that the silence on the topic isn't helping, but to be honest I think some of that may be intentional. Nothing like a little controversy!
Actually McMahon didn't really push Flair (considering who he was) that much the first time around. It was only on the major downside of the Nature Boy's career that he really got the air time.
As for Vince's dislike of Savage, here is one thing about the idea of it being a combination of all of the above - as a wrestling promoter, Vince is always around self-centred assholes who would fail in any professional environment. How would Savage really stick out to such an extent that it earns a decade plus of hatred?
As for HHH harboring any hate because of a possible Steph-Savage hook-up - that was before his time with the company. They weren't in the promotion at the same time and if Steph was willing he might not care anyway. HHH-Steph were a couple about a decade after any alleged Steph-Savage incident.
Posted By: Guest#4788 (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 05:56 PM
When Flair first came to WWF, he did something that no other WCW creation had done at the time: he won the WWF title. The next person to do it was Sid. Vader and Luger never did it. So at the time, it was a huge push.
Your Savage point is excellent, but I don't agree that HHH wouldn't care just because it was in the past. I can guarantee you that if some dirty pervert had taken advantage of my wife when she was underage, I would be on the verge of homicidal. Now if it was consensual...I might be slightly less aggressive, but I darn sure wouldn't shrug it off.
"Very few men left WWF and went straight to WCW."
Are you serious?
Posted By: Gerald (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 06:47 PM
That's the name of the column...why do you disagree? A lot of the defections were after a short layoff. People like Luger and Rude were the exception.
I doubt there is any animosity between Savage and Vince. Savage was given a farewell on Raw by Vince himself when he was set to leave to WCW.
Could simply be a monetary issue, and politics.
Posted By: Krowe (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 07:17 PM
Would politics and a simple monetary issue have lasted 15 years?
Another reason why the Savage/Steph story doesn't stick is that Vince would have jumped all over WCW for hiring a paedophile, the Billionaire Ted skits would have been peanuts compared to the amount shit Vince would have gave WCW if the rumor was true.
Even with the steroid trial, Vince would have taken legal action and probably gotten more sympathy than wearing a neck brace. I doubt Vince is so much of an asshole that he's worried about repercussions of Savage testifying against Vince in the steroid trial, no one's going to side with a pedophile and no one would believe one. So the Steph rumor can be thrown out.
I honestly think Vince and Savage were legitimately close, closer than Vince/Hogan were. Savage quit on him during the company's low point I think Vince really thought he was doing Savage a favor by keeping him on as commentator. Hogan was retired and called out of it when WCW signed him. I think it's a combination of Savage leaving being really the first big star to jump ship to WCW, his rivalry with Hogan and really just bad timing, plus Savage seems like a real private person.
Posted By: D-Man (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 07:44 PM
Vince accusing WCW of hiring a paedophile would have been a lawsuit waiting to happen. Without a legal conviction to back up those accusations, the fecal matter would have impacted the rotational ventilation device in a hurry.
Savage was mistreated while he was IN there. Just like Vince did with Bret Hart a few years later, look how quickly Savage was marginalized. After his feud with Hogan ended, he was turned into a JTTS for quite a while. Look how quickly Savage went down the tubes once he won his second title.
Maybe Vince is so pissed off because Savage did the one thing nobody else ever did...he told Vince off. Even Bret Hart tried to kiss Vince's ass at the end. Maybe Savage told him "You know what, Vince? You know SHIT about wrestling".
Posted By: MissyNEVERWearssocksWithShoes (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 09:46 PM
Savage was tracked down the card a bit after Mania V, but he had a title run and some high-profile matches (against Flair and Warrior) after that, in addition to his wedding headlining a pay per view. I don't call that being mistreated or marginalised. And honestly I can't see Vince hating a man for 15 years just because that man yelled at him.
With both Randy Savage and Vince McMahon's ungodly egos and hypermasculinity the world will probably never know the real reason.
Savage will say he walked and Vince will claim he fired him. Sure The Macho Man was batshit insane, but money says he isn't a paedophile. With McMahon's questionable sanity and alleged mob affiliations, do you think Randy Savage would still be alive if he molested Stephanie?
The most logical answer in my opinion would be Savage quit without giving much notice if any reasonable notice which would anger any boss McMahon or McDonalds.
Posted By: son of pillman (Guest) on June 23, 2009 at 10:48 PM
You're probably right in saying we'll never know for sure. If it's stayed quiet for this long there's no real reason for anyone to put the record straight now unless Savage writes a book. I don't believe we can say Savage walked with no notice. His contract was up, Vince knew it was up and new Savage wanted to wrestle. No notice was needed in that case.
A work all the way
Posted By: roottootfreshfrootboot (Guest) on June 24, 2009 at 12:03 AM
I'm surprised only one person made that statement. I actually meant to include it but forgot all about it. It might well be a work, especially since Savage has never done what Sammartino has done and said publicly "I'm not involved because I don't want to be." Similarly McMahon has never openly denounced Savage like he has some others (Jarrett for example). I'm not sure why either man would choose to work the fans in this way, especially since it's been completely ignored by all parties, but I can't dismiss it out of hand.
I'm not saying it's likely, but I do think the Stephanie rumor is possible and the reason that Vince never pressed charges about it or mentioned it are plausible.
If something like that did happen to his daughter then 1) She could have been legal and no action could be taken or 2) If she was underage, maybe he just didn't want to put that information out there. It would have been all over the place and ruined her life, conviction or not. This way, it's just some stupid Internet rumor.
Posted By: guest (Guest) on June 24, 2009 at 10:25 AM
Both of those reasons are possible, especially if she asked him to say nothing. That would tend to suggest it was consensual. My only problem is that I can't see Vince having a problem telling her to shut it, lie like he told her and suck it up while he took care of the big bad man.
My own crazy conspiracy theory that swirls in my mind about Vince/Savage:
Has anyone noticed that there is NO mention of another particular person linked with Savage? Isn't it kind of strange that *she* suddenly fell off the face of the earth as well?
I think there is something more to Hogan/Vince being upset with how Savage was treating Elizabeth after their real-life split. Something along the lines of...I dunno...Someone's BOSS sleeping with her and finding out - which would lead to *both* the divorce AND walking out?
Yes, it is possible that someone - anyone would have said something by now, except for the fact that there is another person in the equation.
Linda McMahon. She probably knows. She is probably holding Vince hostage with this info that if it EVER came out she would divorce him so fast and take 1/2 of the company with her. Vince doesn't want that.
Sure, Savage can come right out and say something, then - in order to ruin Vince...But I think he's still in love with her. When she died - to me, is when Savage became REALLY crazy.
There's my insanity for the day. Now I must re-foil my room so the aliens in FOX News satellites sent by the antiChrist, Barack Obama don't eat my brain. I have to keep safe to tell everyone that the KGB and JFK faked the moon landing and then had him killed to keep the secret...secret - FOREVER!!!!
Posted By: The 8th Samurai (Guest) on June 24, 2009 at 12:31 PM
So your theory is that McMahon slept with Liz, causing the divorce AND Savage to walk? And that Linda knows this and is holding Vince hostage because of it? I can't get behind that. Even if Vince DID sleep with Liz, why would Linda hold the knowledge over Vince's head instead of just taking him to the cleaners right away? That's the part of your theory that seems unlikely because I don't have any trouble imagining Vince going extra-marital.
There's a variation on the 'Savage fucked Stephanie' rumor which says Savage actually fucked SHANE - and that's why everyone is so tight-lipped about it.
Shane McMahon was 24 when Savage left WWF. He was 15 when Savage first came to the company. If you accept that the incident happened in the 3-4 years before Savage left (which would match the 14-year-old Stephanie rumour), then Shane would have been around 20 and capable of at least putting up a fight in the situation. If in fact that WAS the rumour, Savage would have been vilified in a homophobic environment like a wrestling locker room.
Please make me over
Getting over. There is no more important objective in professional wrestling. Being "over" refers to your ability to evoke a reaction from the fans at will, the skill of making them eat out of the palm of your hand. If you don't get over, you might as well get out. So how does someone get over? Can anyone do it? And hell, what is "being over" anyway?
A note on the "smart marks"
Today's wrestling climate, as influenced as it is by the internet rumour mill, has made it impossible to have universally loved faces or universally hated heels. I'm fairly sure this was always the case, but nowadays it is far more pronounced. You'll see people in every crowd cheering for Jericho, Edge, Orton, even The British Invasion and Sheik Abdul Bashir. This is partly because the smart fans appreciate the work they have done as heels, partly because they like the character and partly because they want to be contrary. For the purposes of this discussion I'll be sticking to the majority of the audience, the ones who are more easily swayed by what the bookers want.
Getting over as a heel – Hate me today, hate me tomorrow
Strange as it may sound, it's actually easier to get a heel over than it is a face. The main reason for this is that the fans don't need to invest their emotion in a heel character in order for the character's schtick to work. Instead they have to be invested in the opponent, but to a lesser extent. In addition a strong heel works well with a weaker face, and it will serve to elevate the face unless the face is totally crushed. The crowd gets behind the plucky underdog and cheers their every success in the feud. On the other hand a strong face working with a weak heel is expected to win and win easily, and the heel won't be helped any by the result.
For some reason, wrestling fans have no trouble drawing a line over which your actions become evil, but the line is very fuzzy at the other end of the scale. For example, being an evil foreigner who hates America is guaranteed to get you a ton of heel heat from the crowd and will get the gimmick over 99 times out of 100. Nobody likes a guy who hates the country the fans are from, especially not when he's making a living in that country. People like The Iron Sheik, the Bolsheviks and Sheik Abdul Bashir are perfect examples. A snobby rich guy who thinks he's above everyone else is another good one. Wrestling fans traditionally have not belonged to the upper echelons of society and as such the guy who goes around flaunting his money, like the Million Dollar Man, The York Foundation and so on, are seen as the enemy. When you combine these two, such as with Prince Nana in Ring of Honor, the heat magnifies.
These are the easiest ways out but, quite frankly, they don't get the person over. The heat is for the gimmick, not the performer, and the moment the gimmick drops the heat will die out in most cases. The real key to getting someone over as a heel in a more enduring way is to make the fans hate THEM, not their opinion. A good way to start is to have your nascent heel beat the ever-loving tar out of the resident über-face. When combined with a turn, this tactic can instantly make the crowd hate the heel. It's important that you start with a beatdown and not a match because as we said above, the face will be expected to win and the crowd will either cheer the weak heel for coming out on top clean (bad), or will not know how to react and sit on their hands confused (worse). It would be like Jamie Noble beating John Cena out of nowhere, for example. Another tactic that I feel is underused is to have a heel character who talks the talk but can walk the walk. He is hated precisely because he IS better than everyone else and he is incredibly cocky with it. Doesn't need to cheat, he just belittles everyone and then beats them soundly. This kind of heel is at its best when backed by a stable of young, equally cocky guys through whom any potential challenger must fight. Although Randy Orton was over as a heel without Legacy, having them around has increased the level at which he is hated.
The bottom line with getting a heel over is that you have to be aware that getting a crowd to hate is relatively easy, getting them to keep hating is slightly harder. A promotion needs several strong heels because they are essential to make strong faces.
Getting over as a face – Give me something to believe
You know that one girl? The one you talk to all the time, make jokes with, see at parties, but no matter what you do you can't get her interested enough to date you or fall in love with you? That girl is the crowd, and you're a face trying to get over. The crowd might like you easily enough, but getting them to love you requires a deeper connection, a unifying event or an endearing trait for which they are looking. It's NOT easy.
Just being a nice guy with a smile on his face who follows the rules and kisses babies won't do it any more. In fact it's likely to get you booed out of the building, and not in a heel way. Just ask Rocky Maivia. Fans hated him not because he was doing a good job as a heel, but because he was sickly sweet, like dunking a Twinkie in maple syrup, coating it in powdered sugar and pouring chocolate sauce over it. You need to not only be pleasant to the audience, but to captivate them, to make them care about you and, perhaps more important, about what happens to you. The audience needs to be captured by you, they have to want to follow your every move and hear your every word, and they have to believe that you can triumph in the face of incredible odds.
So how do you do that? Well once you have yourself a strong heel, you can have the new face come up just short in a series of matches against said heel. Being plucky and never giving up are two things that crowds can really get behind, and even if the face never gets a win against the strong heel the fact that he tried and came close can do wonders. Even though he never capitalised on it, look what that feud with HHH did for Shelton Benjamin.
If you don't bring a fire and passion to the ring, the fans will quickly stop caring. It's not enough these days to have good ring work; you have to have the energy, the charisma and the connection with the fans to go with it. You can't just go out, string together 20 minutes of great moves, and expect to be over. Fire up the crowd, show pain when you're on the receiving end and show enthusiasm when on the giving end.
Although beating down a top face will make you an insta-heel, doing the same to a top heel will not necessarily make you a face. The beatdown itself is a heelish move and is not going to put you over as a face. You also can't force the fans to love you. That normally leads to resentment (Cena today, Rocky Maivia) or apathy (Billy Kidman when WWE tried everything to get him over). Even if you combine the characteristics above, like Kofi Kingston for example, you still won't be over to the level of a main eventer. It's the difference between "not doing anything wrong" and "doing something right". A fine line, but things like surprise returns, surprise wins and humility can all help put the fans behind you.
The importance of the turn
One of the most-used tools in getting someone over is the turn. A tag team that are coasting along on the edges of popularity can quickly get some attention if one turns on the other and they have an explosive breakup. Having a guy come out, ostensibly to protect another face or heel, only to do the opposite of what the fans are expecting, will often cause a huge reaction from the crowd.
The key with using a turn to get someone over is not in the actual turn. It's not enough to just have Guy A turn on Guy B and expect that one or both of the guys will get over just like that. It's all in the follow-up. Note that the follow-up should normally be on the next show, and NOT 10 minutes later as TNA are wont to do. Turn this week, leave the fans guessing as to why, come back next week and TELL them why. And it had better be a good reason. You can't just turn someone because they weren't getting the reaction you wanted,because the fans will see right through the weak reasoning you put out there and crap all over it. Once the fans are convinced that you've changed your ways, you have to stick to those guns and stay in the forefront for a while to make sure that the fans see you're not only serious about your new attitude, but that it works for you as well.
A well-executed turn has to be timed correctly if it's going to get someone over. There should be subtle signs leading to it, but nothing too obvious or it loses its effect. Turns out of nowhere CAN work, but it's a risky proposition and can lead to wheel-spinning. A turn that leaves you in the same spot on the other side of the alignment chart is really not doing anything to get you over. It all comes down, once again, to making the crowd care and believe. Kane and Shelton Benjamin have turned so many times with so little follow-up that nobody cares when it happens any more, and the bookers can't use that tool to get these guys over should they need to. On the other hand, Owen Hart's growing jealousy and eventual explosion on Bret got a perennial midcarder in Owen into a main event at WrestleMania X and beyond.
A good talent can get any gimmick over
I wanted to address this oft-repeated statement because I think it's fascinating. In a lot of ways it's true, BUT there's one major point. A good talent can get a bad gimmick over with good booking You can overcome one obstacle, but very few can do both. The Euguene gimmick was horrible but was booked perfectly. On the other hand, Muhammad Hassan was a wonderful idea for a gimmick that got over in a hurry despite being booked totally wrong almost from day 1.
A gimmick really is just a set of blinkers, a way to channel a guy's talent into one direction in order to help get him over. If it becomes a crutch and the performer gets lazy, then the gimmick gets over while the performer is not. The separation won't become obvious until you try to turn the performer or you elevate them to the point where their old gimmick doesn't make sense (e.g Tajiri as Regal's gopher).
Serious conclusion
When it comes to getting over, the actual initiator of the chain of events is secondary to the follow-up. I cannot stress this enough. Too many people in the last couple of years have been given the start of something to get the crowd behind (or against) them, only for the bookers to give up when it didn't get an instant reaction and kill the idea in its infancy. Eric Young's numerous aborted pushes every time he gets over again, MVP's losing streak turns him face but just switches him from midcard heel to midcard face, Kofi Kingston gets taken out by Edge before the Raw Elimination Chamber and does nothing to get retribution (which would have skyrocketed him up the card with his personality and athleticism), Kaz has great matches against everyone but at the end of the day he is fighting with Dustin Runnels over a rat. To quote Ryan Byers, "Austin 3:16 would've meant nothing if he got beaten by Jake Roberts the next night on Raw and then started to feud with Savio Vega again." And really, how often do we see this stuff at the moment?
Sunday's Miz-Cena match is another example. Many people have pointed out how Miz had no right beating Cena, and they're probably right. Miz should not beat Cena...clean. He could have grabbed some tights, used a loaded fist, had some interference, or won by count out. He could also have put up more of a fight before losing. Instead, we got what we got. Follow-up, my friends.
Moment over.
He's baaaaaaaaaaaaaaack!
This week, I thought we'd pay tribute to the greatest entertainer of all time, Michael Jackson. So here it is, the Top 10 Michael Jackson songs used as entrance themes!
10. Thriller - The Undertaker
9. You're Just Another Part of Me - Zach Gowan
8. Smooth Criminal - MVP
7. Black or White - John Cena
6. Off the Wall - Abyss
5. Billie Jean - Jerry Lawler
4. Man in the Mirror - Make a Difference Fatu
3. Pretty Young Thing - Kelly Kelly
2. Scream - Daffney
And the number 1 Michael Jackson song used as an entrance theme...
Posted By: WATRYYYY (Guest) on June 29, 2009 at 11:17 PM
I see where you're going but disagree on your favorite way for a heel to get over (talk the talk and walk the walk). Once a heel starts winning a lot fans get behind them (Austin is of course the biggest example of this).
The problem is once a heel gets popular they think they can just turn him face by making him less of a jerk. But then they lose their edge and even if they keep winning they lose the talking which was helping them get over in the first place (see Cena, Orton's first turn, Kennedy, etc.).
So to keep the hell heat they usually just have them cheat to win (foreign objects or run-ins, etc.). If they kept Orton the same but let him look strong alone (winning clean without the Legacy) then it would be a short matter of time before he got over as an anti-hero.
Maybe if the 'E get a completely mark audience your strategy can work, but I just don't see it.
Posted By: Save.Us_Y2J (Guest) on June 30, 2009 at 01:01 AM
Didn't Vince admit in a playboy interview that he had affairs with some of his divas .. or was he simply in character?
Posted By: K. Bett (Guest) on June 30, 2009 at 01:49 AM
Don't you think you're going out on a limb, implicitly claiming that you know enough about booking a pro wrestling company that you can actually educate the masses? Even in a rudimentary way? That's some damn confidence, man, even for a web columnist. Those who can't do, teach, I guess. But teachers tend to have some sort of formal training, no? I mean, you wouldn't find a U.S. History professor at Temple U who got the job by watching Founding Fathers Week on the History Channel, know what I mean?
Also, I've seldom heard of the "just being better than everyone" heel persona getting over that well. MVP was probably the best example of this gimmick that I've ever seen, but his persona was bigger than just that. Bottom line: if you're the best, if you really do prove to be better than everyone else, who the hell's gonna boo? You're the alpha dog! That's basically what Triple H was between 2000 and 2006, and the way I recall, he was only actually booed when he held the championship. If your character NEEDS the world title to get heat, I think its success is questionable.
In my opinion, every great heel has at least one exaggerated personality trait that people cannot stand. They take that trait and crank up the volume, shove it in people's faces, and they get genuine heat for it. The crowd will hate THEM, not just their actions...
For Jericho, right now, it's his moral superiority complex and general pomposity that gets the crowd riled.
For Edge, it's his conniving, manipulating tactics, combined with the fact that they usually work.
And as far as Orton goes, I really thought they were onto something with the "not in control of my actions" thing. A refusal to take responsibility for one's actions makes for a GREAT heel trait. But they pulled that 180 right before WM25, had him claim to be "in control the whole time" and switched him back into the cookie-cutter heel he was two years ago. Too bad...
Damn, I wasn't even planning to READ your article; I just read the headline and wondered what was up with this noticeable swelling of ego. I guess you tricked me into it with that pic of the Sheik....
Posted By: KanyonKreist (Registered) on June 30, 2009 at 02:40 AM
I know how to get a face or heel over. It's easy. Have them win 90% of their matches, clean with their finisher, regardless of their talent, at the very least the women and children will cheer for them. If they still get booed or get no reaction, you just ignore that and keep having them win.
Posted By: Guest#7925 (Guest) on June 30, 2009 at 09:00 AM
I would have given Jerry Lawler Beat It. He seems a big fan of nocturnal masterbatory actions. Yes, i believe i did make that word up.
Posted By: the dude (Guest) on June 30, 2009 at 09:36 AM
"And the number 1 Michael Jackson song used as an entrance theme...
In The Closet - Michael Cole"
This tidbit of fact makes Chris Lansdell the BEST...411...COLUMNIST...EVER!
Posted By: Jason S (Guest) on June 30, 2009 at 12:56 PM
"I know how to get a face or heel over. It's easy. Have them win 90% of their matches, clean with their finisher, regardless of their talent, at the very least the women and children will cheer for them. If they still get booed or get no reaction, you just ignore that and keep having them win.
Posted By: Guest#7925 (Guest) on June 30, 2009 at 09:00 AM"
Your not-so-clever jab at John Cena (really? The IWC hating Cena? I'm stunned!) has no merit. You can look at all the hateful reactions he's received (most notably at WrestleMania XXII and One Night Stand '06), but there has NEVER been an instance where he's gotten on reaction.
Tons of cheers? Yes. Tons of boos? Certainly. A 50-50 mix of both? Of course. But he's never come out to an X-Pac type of reaction no matter how much the IWC wants to believe that's the case.
Plus, another thing shooting large cartoon-style holes in your theory is that Cena isn't getting nearly the amount of boos that he used to. Recent crowds have about 80%-90% pro-Cena and sorry to inform you, that's not just women and children.
And I'll just point out my favorite example of how most wrestling fans ("marks" and "smarks" alike) can't even remember who they're supposed to hate anymore: Cena at Royal Rumble '08 at Madison Square Garden. He received one of the largest ovations in recent years and that's arguably the hardest venue to win over fans (with the largest number of fans who think they're smarter than everyone else). And you can't say it's just the surprise element. Hate somebody enough and have them make a surprise return and they're not guaranteed to get a shitload of cheers the way he did.
Posted By: Brad B (Guest) on June 30, 2009 at 01:09 PM
"...but there has NEVER been an instance where he's gotten on reaction."
That was obviously supposed to be "no reaction" not "on reaction."
In before the typical bashers ignore the facts I'm presenting in order to nitpick a typo.
Posted By: Brad B (Guest) on June 30, 2009 at 02:26 PM
It's hard to say why Randy and Vince are not on speaking terms. There's only a few people in the world that know the absolute truth, but if Steph and Randy Scrogged, or Liz and Randy Scrogged(bump uglies) then they would put that in a DVD. Above all else, Vince does what will make money. The truth will make them a ton of money, more than any other movie or DVD they ahave made, plus make a HHH/Savage feued. Give Savage one last hurah and the best feuds are the ones based on real life(AKA Edge/Matt Hardy, Bret Hart/HBK, Foley/Flair) That is serious coin.
Posted By: awsome69 (Guest) on June 30, 2009 at 02:34 PM
At a "university" like Temple, you might find a US History Professor who got his facts from a Denny's placemat.
Posted By: Iron Knee (Guest) on June 30, 2009 at 03:26 PM
Well said, Brad B.
Posted By: Darth Mortis (Guest) on June 30, 2009 at 03:43 PM
Getting people over (heel or face) is not an exact science. What worked for one person (Austin's anti-Authority run) will not work for everyone (Orton in 2004). However, there are a few rules:
If you want to have a heel turn work, don't do it against a face that the fans don't already resent. Two key violations of this were Sting/Hogan in 99, and Midnight Express/Dynamic Dudes in 89. In both cases, the fans were not buying the lower level faces as faces, and thus the heels got cheered for their turn.
Don't turn someone face and heel willy nilly. And certainly don't do it more than once in a few months. Big Show had at least 6 or 7 turns within his first year and a half in the WWE, and it wasn't until he settled in as a heel in 2002 when he started getting consistent heat.
Don't turn a truly despised heel into a face and expect the fans to buy it right away. (Otherwise known as the Sgt. Slaughter rule).
If you have a character that is working, don't change it unless you have no other choice. In most cases, change does nothing but weaken the character. Victoria was doing awesome as the crazy psycho, and then all of a sudden she was normal and doing dance moves. Goldust had a resurrection in 2002, but then they went with the tourrettes syndrome and turned him into a bad comedy character.
Try to make your wrestler distinctive, different from everyone else on the roster. There are far too many cookie-cutter characters in wrestling today, with "generic big man," or "standard diva." Why should we care about your character if we can't distinguish him or her from others on the roster? The Diva's are particularly susceptible to this, as I haven't been able to tell most of them apart.
Whether the wrestler is a heel or a face, he (or she) has to be someone that can get into the character and make us believe that they believe in what they are doing. Nothing is sadder than watching a wrestler play a gimmick half-heartedly.
Posted By: Michael L (Guest) on June 30, 2009 at 04:04 PM
Please excuse me for not knowing, but what exactly is the "Sunny-Candido-Ahmed Johnson-Shawn Michaels" incident? I've looked at a few links, but haven't found much. If someone doesn't mind explaining this to someone who is "not in the know" I'd appreciate it. Thanks.
Posted By: John (Guest) on June 30, 2009 at 04:04 PM
i love marks who have never ever taken a bump think they know things....
Posted By: Guest#4533 (Guest) on June 30, 2009 at 04:43 PM
I know how much you love the Miz but face it, the guy hasn't done anything to prove he's worth anything over mid-card level. He was never sucessful during his singles run in ECW and was only made successful by teaming with a better in-ring performer and more seasoned veteran (compared to him anyways) in John Morrison, who at the time was already a former (world) ECW champ and multiple time IC champ. Morrison already established he can hang in the singles division, albeit not quite at the world title yet, as I don't count the ECW title as a world one in terms of prestige. Miz hasn't really shown that he can hang with the mid-card champs, let alone Cena who is a multiple world champion. Giving him the win would be like Hornswoggle coming out and beating HHH, with any of the suggestions you said for the Miz beating Cena.
It's not a burial of Miz as you seem to think. It's a way to show that while the Miz talks the talk, he doesn't have the skills to back up his talk against main-eventers are this point. What he needs to do to get him over with the majority of the audience is fight Kofi and get the US title so people can believe he can win without Morrison doing all the work. He was the mouth piece, Morrison was the better wrestler and it's showing as Miz can obviously deliver better promos but Morrison can out-perform him in the ring.
Without giving the Miz time to build himself up, no one is gonna believe he can just sudden elevate himself up to beat SuperCena. At least with Big Show, the man has been at the main-event tier before and it's credible for him to get a win over someone in the main-event, granted no one wants to see him as a champion at the moment.
To the majority of the audience/fans, Miz is nothing more than a mid-carder at best. He hasn't proved that he can hang with the mid-carders, let alone SuperCena and isn't and shouldn't get a win over SuperCena in any way at this stage of his career.
Posted By: Steve (Guest) on June 30, 2009 at 04:45 PM
How about A-B-C 1-2-3 for Matt Striker?
Posted By: The Great Capt. Smooth (Guest) on June 30, 2009 at 05:04 PM
wait. i wanna hear the Sunny-Candido-Ahmed Johnson-Shawn Michaels thing
Posted By: Guest#3108 (Guest) on June 30, 2009 at 05:49 PM
I'e seen the Royal Rumble with Cena at #30. I dont know if it's because I wasn't there, but the notion that he got a huge ovation is lost on me. Didn't hear it then, didn't hear it on those youtube videos from people in the crowd. I'll say HHH returning in Janurary of '02 (Think it was 02) at MSG. Was an uber-heel before getting hurt, came out to an amazing pop.
Posted By: Brian C. (Guest) on June 30, 2009 at 07:25 PM
BEAT IT - Robert Gisbon
Posted By: Guest#4945 (Guest) on June 30, 2009 at 08:21 PM
The Sunny Story is that she did coke with Candido , in a hotel .
They ran out of coke , Asked Ahmed for some , He wanted Sex in exchange , Sunny agreed .
Candido waited all night in his room .
In the morning , he Found she was with HBK .
"I Was up all night ".
:)
More detailed :
- Ahmed Johnson did a lot of coke back around 1996 at the height of his WWF pay. I don't think I have to tell you that Chris and Tammy enjoy their fair share of nose candy. Well once they had blown through their cash but were still jonesing, they got desperate. They asked
Ahmed for some coke .
- Ahmed wanted sex . 20 minutes later Ahmed finishes and Tammy leaves his room with the tiny, paper envelope. Instead of going back and using it with Chris (who was in their room freaking out), she did the coke with Shawn Michaels and spent the night in his room. A few hours later a frantic Candido starts banging on Ahmed's door. Ahmed answers the door and Candido asks, "Is Tammy here?" Ahmed shrugs and Chris says, "Where the fuck is Tammy?" Ahmed says he doesn't know because she left hours ago. Candido immediately abandons his search and says, "Well did she take the dope with her?" The next morning he still hasn't seen Tammy so he goes to the front desk where he runs into Shawn Michaels in the lobby. Shawn walks up to Candido and pushes a nostril close, sniffs, and says, "Thanks for the bump, Chris." Chris asked where Tammy was and Shawn said, "She's probably back in your room now." Candido stormed up to see her, got in a big argument, went to the building, and quit on the spot. The agent told him he couldn't quit w/o a written notice. So he picked up a booking sheet, flipped it over, and wrote: "I quit. Chris Candido"
- And that was the end of his WWF career.
Posted By: HBK Rules (Guest) on July 01, 2009 at 12:46 AM
Guest#4533 said:
i love marks who have never ever taken a bump think they know things....
i hate to do this, but i have to agree with this guy. who are you, oh that's right you write a column for 411wrestling that means you know everything, lol. i love your work man, but please, don't ever try and write a column about something in which you know nothing about. have you ever had to get yourself over inside a wrestling ring??? legitimate question. stick to the stuff you know. once again, usually love your work, but you are better than this drivel. expecting better stuff next time around.
Posted By: hartfan (Guest) on July 01, 2009 at 03:31 PM
I am going to echo the statements, go train, take some bumps, learn the business then promote a show and IF you are successful you are still not qualified to tell people how to get over.
You are a fan, a mark, nothing more.
Posted By: Curtis (Guest) on July 02, 2009 at 11:06 AM
The piece on RS and VKM is good, a lot of detail about maybe what happened although I would not have spelt it out so clearly VKM is notoriously touchy about using Jerry McDevitt to silence people.
Sorry I have to echo the others on this, in that when you have worked for a successful wrestling company holding the pencil then you can claim to have the secret to how to get talent over with the fans.
What I see is the usual I know better than the professionals and I will be blunt a lot of the talent get over by accident and its cause they do something that the fans react to which can be unintentional or just act in amanner that the fans like.
Sometimes the pencil gets people over but as you know a lot of the pencil's chosen ones never get past the starting blocks when they are shown to the people who count.
What it does come down to is how the talent just do their job in and out of the ring, fans have to hate you or like you, no middle ground and its how that reaction comes about that is the hardest thing to achieve.
We may all mock Cena for his poor wrestling skills as I think the IWC feels he is taking up someone else's spot but he has gotten a reaction from the fans for nearly all of his tenure, it might be boo's but he still gets them.
So in essence if you feel that you can go get a performer over walk on down to TNA and see if you can't replace any of that committee and get some of its younger talent over using your statements here.
Posted By: VictFan01 (Guest) on July 02, 2009 at 04:32 PM
Gotta love the standard "You've never wrestled, hence you can't offer opinions on wrestling." If you don't understand why that makes zero sense it can't be explained to you.
The problem with a heel tag team splitting and one becoming face (Miz & Morrison) is that, at least in Morrison's case, he was never given a chance to really turn face. Miz obviously stays heel because he's a dick who attacked his friend, but why should we cheer Morrison now? You've never given us a reason to cheer you before so now we're supposed to feel sorry because you, as a dick yourself, chose to hang around with another dick? What did you expect? A face is not a face just because he smiles and doesn't break the rules.
"Dirty Diana" would've worked for Lita in '06.
Posted By: neverAcquiesce (Guest) on July 02, 2009 at 04:42 PM
As for the 'you couldn't get over the 'doesn't need to cheat because he's better than you' heel' comment above, a couple of words:
Mr. Perfect
Posted By: Robin (Guest) on July 03, 2009 at 07:07 AM
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I use to believe Savage left Vince and the WWE high and dry. Then you bought up Rick Rude. He did the same thing with more publicity. Yet he is mentioned on WWE TV all the time. They have released Rick Rude t-shirts. So I really am not sure.
Getting over as a heel – Hate me today, hate me tomorrow
Getting over as a face – Give me something to believe
The importance of the turn
A good talent can get any gimmick over
