Five-Star Conversation 08.04.09: The DVD Buying Public Has Spoken!

Posted by Geoff Eubanks on 08.04.2009

This week, we take a look back at the comments regarding WWE's proposed DVD sets.

DID YOU KNOW? I had very little idea who Jeremy Piven was before he got the Raw Guest-GM gig? I had to look him up and realized he's on Entourage. I've never seen the show, but I've done coke on one of the remote sets, a multi-level house up in the Hollywood Hills a mile or so north of my apartment.

COMMENTPALOOZA!
First of all, I have to thank everyone (but one) who commented last week! 47 comments, by far, is a record for 5SC and I enjoyed reading all the feedback, even those whose opinions differed greatly from my own. The one comment I did absolutely did NOT appreciate was one I am not going to give the attention of respect of reprinting here and how it got approved in the first place makes me sick. We have fun here, and at the expense of others a lot of the time, but even the harsh words are delivered with comedic intent. Anti-Semitism, racism, homophobia, sexism, anything that falls under the general banner of bigotry is unwelcome here and if that bothers you, take it back to the Klan rally, asshole.

That one disgusting comment aside, it was a banner week for comments, so let's get to it!

Forget all these compilation sets. I think they should put together something where you can order custom DVDS. They should put up a menu of everything they have and you could go in and pick and choose what you want on your own DVD.
Posted By: Guest#7714

I love this idea, although, unfortunately, I think this is a pipe dream, at least for now, owing mainly to technology. All of this old footage has to be re-mastered if it wasn't originally recorded in a digital format to be available for a DVD release (to say nothing of the legal necessity of obscuring the original WWF scratch logo before we "got the F out"), therefore, unless there's something I'm missing (and that possibility is certainly probable!), such a time-consuming process likely stands not to see the light of day for a good long time, although it is a nice idea in and of itself!

I'm sorry but i don't see how a Morrison dvd would fly off the shelves, however good he is in the ring, he's done nowhere near enough to get a dvd yet, hell he's not even that over.

Jericho & Steamboats should be next.
Posted By: jbardo

Compilations:
1.Wargames
2.Clash

Superstar DVDs
1.Tie Sting/Jericho/Steamboat

You're kidding about the John Morrison DVD right?
Posted By: Jake Fury

Complete Dirt Sheet on DVD FTW!!!
Posted By: Guest#2960

Personally I think it's too soon for Punk and Morrison to get a set. Especially not ahead of Orton and Jericho.
Posted By: SU_RKO

Wow, so little love for The Shaman of Sexy! When I suggested Morrison be allowed his own DVD, I didn't mean it had to be some multi-DVD affair. I agree, it's tough to showcase a career that's not even half completed (God willing!). However, we always tend to see matches omitted once the multi-DVD set is assembled and there's always complaining and a sense of incompleteness.

What I suggest in Morrison and Punk's regard, is a single "career-to-date" release, such as we saw with Brock Lesnar's "Here Comes the Pain" or Shawn Michaels' "Boyhood Dream" DVDs, a "career snapshot", eef you wee-yull. We all know Morrison is going to go on to a singles career, so why not honor his tag history with Joey Mercury and The Miz, especially since he's now John Morrison, having evolved from "Johnny Nitro"? It's not an unheard-of concept; if you think about it, the Jeff & Matt Hardy 2-DVD set was just such a collection, each Hardy having his own DVD (although, in Punk's case, a bit of a bio piece could prove to be interesting, where his whole straight-edge thing is concerned).

And although I'm not about to start a fight over exactly how over or not Morrison is (I'm of the opinion that he is and gaining more momentum each week), check out this week's Wrestler of the Week in his regard.

I agree with SU_RKO, that Orton and (especially) Jericho deserve their DVD sets before we even look further down the card to honor anyone else, but don't begrudge those of us who do want Morrison matches on DVD! If you're not down, don't buy it.

I agree about the Jericho DVD...I've been waiting for this for 10 years now!!!!
Posted By: BP

The reason there isn't a Jericho DVD is because they're trying to condense it into 3 DVDs. They should just make it a 5 Disc set. Same with Flair.
Posted By: Guest#9348

Seeing as Jericho was one of the first to say that the Benoit on that day in 2007 wasn't the one he knew (in his autobiography), maybe he'd have some leverage to finally let them use some matches?
Posted By: Guest#2213

How can you do a Randy Orton DVD without including his first World title win (Benoit)? Or a Elimination Chamber DVD without HHHs tenth title win (Benoit)?

I would buy:

CM Punk
Chris Jericho
Clash of the Champions

and

CHRISTIAN!!!!! Yes, I know it isn't on the list! ;(
Posted By: Me

Am I the only one who DOESNT want to see a Jericho DVD set. Over the past year, Jericho has been on a roll doing some of his best work to date (on mic and in ring). Why release a greatest hits album in the middle of your peak? You'll just have to add to it later.

What I wouldn't mind is a best of Jericho with everything leading up to 1999 when he jumped to WWF/E. If that's too limited, how about up until he won the unified title. Then a volume 2 (from 2001 on...) wouldn't seem like double dipping down the line.
Posted By: NomAd

To be fair you make a great point there, but there's still so much great material over the years i really want to see one now.
Posted By: jbardo

Not surprisingly, lots of love for Jericho, although funny how we see such a variety of opinions.

I forgot how prominently Chris Benoit figures into the histories of both Jericho and Orton, which is a damn shame, because we're either going to be stuck with abbreviated, revisionist histories of both men's careers (Jericho more so than Orton), which is, in my opinion, disrespectful to the fans and the men themselves. It's become so clear now exactly how important Benoit was to the world and legacy of professional wrestling, especially throughout the early portion of this decade and, consequently, how difficult it is to tell a complete and appropriate history without him.

True, time tends to lessen the impact of Benoit's tragic deeds, as we, fans of his work, have learned to separate Benoit the wrestler from Benoit the murderer, but nothing can (and nothing should) quell the gravity of such actions. To that end, as much as I want to see these matches, WWE as a company must toe a fine line when presenting them, because of Benoit's involvement, especially now that it has, once again, made children it's top target audience. Children are, by nature, curious and tend to have a knack for asking the very questions adults find it difficult to answer in a manner that's appropriate for and satisfying to them.

Therefore, do we include a Benoit match, when it is pivotal to the career of the talent in question or do we simply omit that portion of the talent's history? In Orton's case, I think it would be safe to include his first world title win over Benoit. There's really no need to dwell on the fact that Benoit was the incumbent champion going in, there's no need to bring it up in any greater means than a statement of fact in the bio, hell, his entrance needn't even make the cut, and, after all, he does drop the belt, so I say no harm, no foul in Orton's regard (the same could be said for Triple H's 10th title victory or any Elimination Chamber involvement on Benoit's part).

As far as Jericho is concerned, though, I think there's a bit of a different story to be told, considering the fact that they both trained at Hart House and that their careers mirrored each other's in so many ways, the fact that they were friends and even a tag team together for a bit there. However, because Jericho was his friend behind the curtain, as well, we have the luxury of including the Benoit family tragedy in Jericho's bio, where we could hear his take on the subject straight from his own mouth, therefore, justifying Benoit's presence in the wrestling portion of the set (I, for one, would love to see some of that old footage with Benoit & Jericho against THE TWO-MAN POWER TRIP!). I think it's absolutely more than possible to handle this situation with grace and panache, especially considering Jericho's gift for verbal eloquence.

Otherwise, it stands to reason we'll get a bunch of old ECW and WCW match footage, which certainly wouldn't suck as far as I'm concerned (and, like I said, there's always the possibility that Vince might fork out for some of Jericho's overseas footage, which should be included anyway!).

NomAd, your comment makes a fair amount of sense from a fan's standpoint, but not a business standpoint. Of course WWE wants to add to it later! That's how they make money! And, seriously, considering there's absolutely nothing on Jericho in the current market, they're absolutely spoiled for choice when it comes to content. Of course, as we've discussed where Benoit's inclusion-or-not is concerned, it's just a matter of how complete it's going to be. Plus, with Jericho's return and recent evolution to being one of the greatest in the game today, if not ever, that's a perfect starting-off point for the next DVD set.

And, Me, I'm right there with you wanting a Christian retrospective! It's about damn time Captain Charisma got his fair due!

Geoff, well done on the WWESP, again. When Miz called her that, I was like, "Didn't Geoff say this would happen?". I'll try one. Maybe Shaq will guest host RAW. Oh, wait. I'm not really a DVD person, but if I were to get some, I'd take the EC one, RAW, Steamboat, and Sting the most. Finally, loved the "pussy" video and now I can go to heaven and get my 72 virgins.
Posted By: The Great Capt. Smooth

First off, Are You Being Served is still funny, probably always will be. Good on you for using it.

I find it interesting that you prefer Lesnar over Goldberg. I think the major difference in them is their backstage group. Lesnar worked closely with guys like Tommy Dreamer and Undertaker while Goldberg had Hogan, Nash and Bischoff, so I think that their attitudes toward the business were largely shaped by their peers. I'll grant you that I'm a big fan of both guys but Goldberg was a license to print money and Vince only wanted to show that his champions were that much better than anyone else's former champs. Whatever has been said about Goldberg backstage, I've never heard of him being bad to his fans and there are tons of stories of him signing autographs in parking garages at all hours while Hogan snuck away. Either way I'm all for both of these DVDs. Throw in Punk and Jericho and the Elimination Chamber and I've doubled my wrestling DVD collection. I sold all the others, sue me.

Great column as usual Geoff. Keep up the good work.
Posted By: Pete

So you hate Goldberg but LOVE Brock Lesnar even though their stories in pro wrestling are similar? I hope Goldberg kicks your ass.
Posted By: Uhhh...

Goldberg and Lesnar are exactly the same, other than the fact that Lesnar was an excellent pro wrestler, who had no trouble keeping up with guys like Angle and Guerrero, and who even carried The Big Show to the only great feud of his 12-year plus career.

Goldberg couldn't carry Lesnar's jockstrap.
Posted By: saneiac

I second this sentiment. They're stories KAYFABE may be similar, but Brock was a two-time (two-time Xp) NCAA champ (I believe. I know at least once) for WRESTLING while Goldberg was a football player. Their characters were booked SOMEWHAT similarly, but Brock defined "wrestler". I think Brock's great and I think Goldberg sucks. If you can't agree with me, that doesn't bother me one bit, but I'm entitled to my opinion.

Eubanks is also entitled to his opinion. Jesus, you guys are attacking him for not liking the War Games match? Writers on this site aren't allowed to dislike something you like a lot? They're not allowed to like something you think sucks? Get over yourselves.
Posted By: Empire Of Ownage

First of all, it pleases me greatly to see so much love and appreciation for the great, classic British comedy. I didn't think anyone would have any idea who Hyacinth Bucket was! Here's another Britcom clip near and dear to my heart:


It doesn't really surprise me that Goldberg had some fans rise up to back him, as I laid it on really thick against him. It wasn't my intention to push buttons, but in accurately describing my disgust for him, there was really no choice…I mean, I'm not here to lob softballs at you good people. That's not how we roll here in 5SC.

I find it interesting that there are those who think Goldberg and Lesnar have similar histories in professional wrestling. Really, about the only things they had in common was that they were dominant, both walked away from the business at time when they both could have been highly marketable and bankable entities and that they had their last match against one another that turned into a complete trainwreck that helped to disgrace them both in the eyes of wrestling fans.

Lesnar was a wrestler, through and through, from his exceptional amateur career on through to his WWE tenure. There was a reason why Kurt Angle, Olympic gold medallist, held Lesnar in such utter high regard. Lesnar respected the craft and art of wrestling and the manner in which he approached the "fakeness" of professional wrestling still managed to hold quite true to his old school amateur roots. If he managed to disrespect the business, it was because he failed to grasp the actual lifestyle required to meet WWE's grueling "traveling circus" schedule and decided it simply wasn't worth it, as I said last week, a product of youth and its impetuousness.

Goldberg, on the other hand, was the biggest diva WWE has ever employed (well, okay, that's a stretch, but…). Here's a reprint of my take on Goldberg from when I counted down my Most Hated Wrestlers countdown awhile back:

"[Goldberg] couldn't give two shits about the business he raped for millions, other than when he cashed his paychecks. He's wasn't as horrible a wrestler as he's discredited for being, but he was an absolute one-note in the ring, and, for the best part of his career, was the epitome of formulaic. What's more, he felt as if the business and all those involved in it were obligated to allow him to play ball in the manner in which HE chose, simply because he fucking SHOWED UP.

Now, I'm not one of these "pay your dues" hardliners, because I DO believe that if you're the right person at the right time and you've managed to refine your act more quickly than someone else who's been there twice as long, as long as you've got the goods to entertain on the stick AND get the job done in the ring, welcome to the upper card, friend. It wasn't The Rock's fault he got his shit together quicker than Bob Holly. However, if that's the case, don't you think the person who gets it sooner than the rest owes even a modicum of courtesy to those who've been there longer and are putting you over? Not if you're the almighty Goldberg. The infamous "Chris Jericho" and "Triple H" incidents pretty well speak for themselves, especially when one considers Goldberg and HHH didn't even work for the same company and had never even MET!

Furthermore, Goldberg was manufactured by WCW from the word go. I guarantee you, if Vince worked the same thing with Kung Fu Naki starting this week, fans would eat it up. It wouldn't be RIGHT, but the sheep would LOVE it. Second, Bischoff was determined to push Goldberg to the top because it was self-vindication for having been IDIOT enough to have not just allowed Steve Austin to slip through his fingers, not to just admit that he had no idea what to do with just some wrestler who wanted to wear black boots and black trunks, but for actually FIRING the biggest draw in the history of the business. Do you think it was an accident that Goldberg had a baldhead, a goatee, black trunks and black boots?

This guy is an abject asshole who does NOT respect the business and milked it for all he could get out of it, not once, but TWICE, and Vince should have known better. Goldberg, who should have respected that he was being brought in to WWE out of respect for HIM; but he had to play ball with someone who wouldn't LET him dictate the terms of his contract, who MADE him look as foolish on occasion as any other performer in that role would have. He didn't like it, he bailed like a little BITCH and has talked shit about WWE ever since, but we all know it wasn't because he was mishandled, it was because little Baby Bill didn't get his way, although I don't see why he's unhappy, he still got his check."

Pete makes an interesting point about the possibility of Goldberg being a product of his environment, that being, Uncle Eric's ATM Bonanza back in the "heyday" of WCW, juxtaposed with Lesnar's having come up through the WWE farm system and working with Heyman and Taker, but, according to those I know who've actually come into contact with Goldberg have confessed that he's a pompous jerk who treats others as subordinates. I just can't respect anyone like that, especially when there's so much on the table that points to his caring little about anyone or anything else other than Big Bill. I welcome the opportunity to be proven wrong in this regard!

I second the Best Feuds of WWE/NWA/WCW/ECW/everything else DVD. One day, I also hope beyond hope that Vince and company will see fit to release a 3 disc Best of the Cruiserweights spanning both WCW and WWE. But mainly WCW. I also hope that we'll see a 3 Disc Andre set, as well as a set based around the Golden Age of the 40s and 50s. And I'd like a do over in regards to the NWO DVD. Let's see what else...oh, a Stinko Malenko 2 disc set. Kurt Angle 3 disc set, with Benoit matches. Some kind of comprehensive set on Liger's career, in English, though WWE couldn't do it. I MIGHT be interested in a best of Women's set, as long as it focused on the eras when the division had some decent in ring performers, such as the early 2000s with Trish and Molly and Jazz and so on. And I'd love to see more history of promotions sets, for Stampede and Florida and such. That's all.
Posted By: YepYep

I've actually had this idea before (and even wrote it in to JR's Q&A to which I got a less than satisfactory "I don't have anything to do with the DVD process" answer) and thought it'd be amazing to put EVERY SINGLE SEGMENT of interaction between said participants during a feud's specific run. I'd love to see HHH/HBK (2002-2003), HHH/HBK (2004-2005), Rock/Austin (1999-2001; WMXIX), Rock/Foley, HHH/Foley, Hardyz/Edge & Christian/Dudleyz, Angle/Lesnar, Angle/Guerrero, Guerrero/Mysterio, HBK/Jericho (2003), HBK/Jericho (2008), Austin/McMahon (4 disc set including EVERYTHING), Undertaker/Kane, The Rock/HHH, Flair/Steamboat, Hart/Hart, Hart/HBK, Hart/Austin, HHH/Flair, Orton/Foley, Edge/Foley, Edge/Matt Hardy, Angle/Austin (2001), and even though I don't want it, I'm sure they'd make a Batista/HHH.

I'd also love to see a Shane McMahon profile DVD with his matches with his huge leaps against Blackman, Test, and the Big Show, as well as his amazing street fight against Kurt Angle.
Posted By: Empire Of Ownage

Wow! That's a long order, gentlemen! YepYep, I'm stoked you appreciate the "feuds" concept. I think that would be a hell of an opportunity for WWE to really honor the past, while displaying exactly what it is that we watch professional wrestling for, vibrant characters, compelling stories, engrossing storytelling as well as great in-ring action. I stand by the notion, too, that there are lessons to be learned by current and future storytellers in wrestling by studying the past. I recognize there's the desire on the part of WWE to move away from the "old time rasslin" feel, but a good story is a good story. It's also possible to see how solid characters came to be and flourish by viewing the legends of yesterday in their best moments. I don't see how this series could miss.

A 3-DVD set spotlighting the best of the CruiserWeights? Yes please, sign me up! I'm shocked there's not an Andre set available, considering he's such an icon, whose name and legacy is still so fresh and beloved. Vince also loved claiming Andre as one of his own, despite the fact that he wrestled for a number of promoters all over the world. A "Golden Age" will likely never see the light of day, though, as I have a strong suspicion such a set would be regarded by McMahonagement as passé and too out of date. I'm right there with you on Angle, Malenko and Liger, too (although it's more probable that we'd get a CW DVD set with Malenko and Liger featured during their WCW days before each/either would see his own set; I'd be willing to bet we'll eventually see Angle back under the WWE umbrella at some point, at which time we'll get that DVD set). A "history of the WWE Divas" DVD set is probably quite likely down the line, too, although it won't get a lot of rotation o my DVD player, but more power to you!

Ownage, you really understood and latched onto the "greatest feuds" concept and, boy, did you run with it! But I can't blame you. I can't underscore enough how strongly I believe in this concept and how entertaining and beneficial it could be if done right. It seems to me they'd be fairly inexpensive to produce, as well, as Vince already owns enough footage to keep this ball rolling for a good long time. Well done and thanks for the contribution!

elimination chamber; i think you forget Geoff, one of the 9 matches will automatically be cut (NYR 2005) for containing old whats-his-name. also regarding the ecw chamber, it didn't help that the go-home sequence sucked, lashley eliminated test too quick and had to wait for big show to come out (fail). I'd still favour this set coming out though.

the raw wonder years; what am i, made of money? in all seriousness, there were certain years on the 15th anniversary set that i felt were got i bit short changed, 2000 especially, so just as long as individual volumes would be easily available, sure go ahead

clash of the champions/in your house/war games; PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE (let me get what i want - thank you morrissey)

craziest moments/giants and monsters; made me think back to those random vhs' like "WWF Action!" pass

goldberg; only if as an extra they had footage of jericho shooting his arse down in their backstage fight and making him his bitch!

jericho; i believe we've talked about this before, haven't we geoff? eleventy billion pleases let this happen!!!

lesnar; not enough footage, blatant cash-in on his ufc fame, please no

morrison/orton/punk; too soon, waaaaaay too soon in JoMo's case

steamboat; not sure how serious they're taking this considering lots of his back catalogue is on everyone else's dvd's, and that they've recently announced the chi-town rumble match will be on the death of wcw set. that still doesn't stop me wanting it though.

sting; while his no-selling doesn't stop me enjoying his matches, i've also had trouble with it too geoff, more specifically the logic behind it. no-selling should be left to the monster faces like hogan and undertaker.

and i'm spent!
Posted By: DaJ

I'd buy just about all of them, except Goldberg, Crazy moments, and Giants and Monsters. I think it is too soon for Morrison or CM Punk to have their own DVD though.

Why is it you would never watch the Sting DVD?
Posted By: Todd Vote

First of all, DaJ, mega points to you for quoting Morrissey.

We discussed the possibility of including a Benoit EC match, although if there's a chance for one match to be omitted, that would likely be on Vince's short-list (balanced, though, with the fact that it was Sonnyboy's 10th Title win…such a dilemma. Reminds me of The French Revolution portion of Mel Brooks' "History of the World, Part One". "Hump, death, hump, death, hump, death." You either get that or you don't, and if you don't, you should totally rent that film! Next to "Young Frankenstein", it's his best!). Good ol' Lashley comin through. Now that he's signed with TNA, it should be interesting to see how he's used there (we're going to return to Dixieland next week and discuss the new goings-on in front of as well as behind the cameras). But, yes, an Elimination Chamber DVD set is inevitable and I welcome it!

The Raw DVD set series, focusing on each year, would basically read like an encyclopedia of modern-day professional wrestling and there's no doubt what a guaranteed success it would be, thereby all but ensuring a SmackDown! series to follow. Made of money, indeed!

CotC is a must have, although I have a feeling all we'll get is a STARRCADE companion set, despite the fact that there's so much material worthy of seeing the light of day.

The only way I held back on Goldberg last week was by refraining from mentioning the backstage Jericho incident, but, believe me, I was right there with you, DaJ!

Quite frankly, I don't really care how they assemble the Steamboat DVD, I just want it! Didn't he and Flair have some matches that haven't already been featured on Flair's sets? I know they wrestled one another a whole shit ton back in the day, but that there just weren't cameras rolling at the house shows…how many televised/taped matches exist? I understand that his career was relatively brief, at least when compared with the size of his legend, but I have to think we've not already seen all of his career's significant moments….?

I think what always bugged me about Sting was that I just didn't have a context for him in my mind, and if that's my own deficiency, that's my own problem and nothing on him. To me, he just didn't have the same size and strength of a Hogan or Luger, even though he was doing power moves, while he didn't have the smoothness and grace of a Steamboat or Savage, yet he wasn't adverse to trying some aerial moves (for the day). He also didn't have the fundamental chops of Bret Hart, but used the same submission finisher, and, although he clearly had more on the ball than some remedial punch/kick one-note, he seem to rise too far above that level of acumen in my eyes. His matches always reminded me that what I was seeing was scripted and for me to enjoy a match involving him, I had to rachet up the willing suspension of disbelief. His offense seemed so hodge-podge to me, like he was borrowing from all over the board to get the job done and none of it really converged to make me see him in a cohesive light as a wrestler.

This aside from the runaway train he seemed to be when he got on the mic. Old school bleached-blond Sting seemed to be spouting out non-sequiturs and paragraph fragments during his promos, punctuated by his little scream, which, as I've said before, seemed to be to me a hyper rip-off of Flair's classic WOO! I don't mean this to be offensive to anyone, it's just my opinion based upon my perception of Sting the performer and why he never connected with me. If anything, rather than be pissed off at me, pity me for not getting it and missing out on all the great moments with which he's provided you.

Why won't Vince just cave in and hire Erik Watts? I need to see a Mid-South/UWF compilation. Plus, it'd really round out the eventual Sting box set. The WWE's kept Goldust employed for a lot less upside. They could make Watts some kind of effeminate redneck; those're Vince's two favorite stereotypes.
Posted By: Iron Knee

Yeah, then, in addition to Vince owning the Mid-South library, we could finally answer all those pleas from the fans, clamoring for a Tekno Team 2000 reunion.


While I think your comments about Sting are completely off-base (although you're entitled to your opinion), I have to agree with your assessment on War Games.

I noted this once before when the topic came up - War Games is an example of an excellent concept that seems like a must-see event. But often times, the results fell flat and didn't live up to expectations.

I don't agree with you that the match is confusing and overbooked - it's actually pretty straightforward. But in terms of sheer excitement, few of the War Games in history lived up to the hype.

The first two are definitely the standard barrier. The Horsemen/Warriors & Dusty/Nikita blood feud was textbook and could only be settled in this new structure. There was tons of bloodshed and innovative (for the time) spots. But once "The Match Beyond" started, it did seem anticlimactic, particularly since, as you mentioned, seeing managers or fill-in wrestlers (like "War Machine" Bubba Rogers) clues you in on who will throw in the towel.

From there, there were only two additional War Games matches that exhibited the intense hatred you'd expect in this type of match: the 1991 classic of Horsemen vs. Sting/Pillman/Steiners and the 1992 Dangerous Alliance vs. Sting's Squadron match that blew off the Alliance angle. And even those had weak endings (Pillman falling unconscious to Sid's sloppiness; Eaton submitting to a weak armbar mere minutes after all combatants were in the cage).

The only other one that was watchable was at Great American Bash 89, arguably the greatest PPV of all time. That one saw The Warriors/Midnight Express/Dr. Death vs. SST/Freebirds (Hayes, Gordy, J. Garvin). This match was missing some of the intense hatred of past War Games (Dr. Death had just turned good; Freebirds were only around for about a month) and more importantly, blood. But the action was solid enough to make it watchable.

Beyond that, War Games as a whole was a colossal disappointment. It's not worth mentioning the Fall Brawl matches over the years that either had participants nobody cared about (Harlem Heat when they were just "Kane" and "Kole", Shockmaster, any of Brutus Beefcake's incarnations) or were cartoonish in nature (Hogan/Sting/Luger/Savage vs. Dungeon of Doom in '95). None of them featured bloodshed (not even the '97 matchup where Curt Hennig turned on Ric Flair by crashing the cage door full force in his face) and again, there was nothing exciting about the end of the matches once "The Match Beyond" started.

War Games was a great, innovative concept for it's time that gets more credit than it deserves because there was nothing like it at the time. But if you take a match-by-match comparison of the gimmick (as this DVD will), you'll find that the alleged excitement is missing in most of them.
Posted By: Jason S

What's with this revisionist bullshit War Games bashing? Every match until '93 was either good to great, with '91 and '92 being about as close to ***** as you can get. Even after the match didn't get truly ruined until it fell into Russo's hands. The bad War Games matches in the mid '90s were either still enjoyable as okay mindless brawls Hogan/Sting/Luger/Savage vs DoD) or as matches so terrible you can only watch in awe of the sheer putridness (Hogan/Savage vs. DoD/Horsemen Triple Cage fiasco which was as an extension of the War Games concept). I mean, from '87 to '92 you have six years of awesome matches, then you get guilty pleasures until the late '90s which is where things finally died.

War Games doesn't get more credit than it deserves. It doesn't get the recognition that it rightly deserves as one of the NWA/WCW's innovative ideas. And shit, the Elimination Chamber has pretty much only produced one or two decent matches with the rest either being bland (NYR 2005) or sucking really hard (ECW's abortion). Fuck the Elimination Chamber. It's always been WWE's cheap knock-off of War Games because Vince didn't want to admit WCW had a good idea.
Posted By: Guest#4125

So you're gonna be waiting in line for three days for a John Morrison DVD, but you wouldn't buy Wargames?

Did you only see the one with Hogan and his buddies vs. The Dungeon of Doom? Really, Wargames '92: Sting's Squadron vs. The Dangerous Alliance is IMO the greatest match in wrestling history (Sting won the thing with a damn armbar and it made perfect sense for Christ's sake) and the rest are classic old school violence at its finest, even the one with The Shockmaster.
Posted By: Guest#0745

I disagree with you about Wargames and sting but I do respect that you have your own opinion...BUT...First off on the Wargames DVD, imo this is the greatest gimmick match of all time and there are some 5 star classics with some great moments involved and the rules were fairly simple to me.

Sure there were matches that fell flat but what gimmick match with as many matches as Wargames didn't fall flat? Second about the Sting DVD, I gotta say, Sting was one of the few wrestlers that not only stayed relevant all his career but stayed on top for MOST of his career through all his changes. That dvd would be a MUST buy.
Posted By: cj

I'd like to see a WarGames DVD. I saw one live in the old TB Bucs stadium when I was in high school and it was pretty fuckin cool.

I'd like to see a Crockett Cup DVD as well. Those seemed like such a big deal back in the day. In fact, I wouldn't mind the E ripping it off and having a similar (Vince Sr Cup?) tournament throughout the company. Get 32 teams made up of company men and let the tournament play through the shows until the final 8 teams finish off on ppv. It would only be 7 matches on ppv. Do it during May and call it May Madness (ripping off the NCAA).

If WWESP exists, then look forward to a DX/Brothers of Destruction match-up sometime next May.

Great column, as always. Have a good weekend.
Posted By: Angry Bear

Wait...so you give negative comments to Sting & to Wargames also while giving positive comments to Blandy Orton? When did you first become a wrestling fan, the Russo/Crash TV era? I'm not really dissing you, I'm actually just curious.
Posted By: MissyNEVERWearssocksWithShoes

Wow, people loves em some Wargames! And, by all means, you're all certainly entitled. It was never my intention to BERRY~! Wargames, in fact, I thought I put it over as being an innovative, groundbreaking concept that The WWF candy-coated and watered down to create the traditional SURVIVOR SERIES match.

Now I must admit, I've seen only two matches in the gimmick's long and storied history, the HORSEMEN-Dr. Death/Luger/Duthty/Koloff/Ellering match and the Pillman/Sting/STEINERS-HORSEMEN matches, which is why I'd be very interested in renting the set to educate myself (which I think I said last week) before committing to actually buying the thing outright.

In terms of "The Match Beyond" portion, as Jason mentions, in both matches, once the drama surrounding the entrance of each performer has passed, the ending in both was either telegraphed or lame and both were anti-climatic for me. I thought about it and, although it would force a hell of a long night for the eight or ten men involved, it seems to make more sense to me if such a bloody, angry, score-settling match should be decided under elimination rules, therefore, the only men left standing at the final bell are the men who come out on top. Vince may have softened the barbarism of Wargames with the traditional Survivor Series match, but he got the elimination part right.

For the record, I recall loving THE DANGEROUS ALLIANCE, which was back when I first remember discovering WCW, and so the opportunity to see their Wargames match is enticing indeed, although I already know the wrong team goes over. It strikes me that a bunch of people read this column who seem to be unfamiliar with my personal experience watching professional wrestling, warranting a briefing. Having grown up in California, I didn't have any access at all to old school NWA, especially prior to getting cable when I was 13 (which was when I discovered wrestling, period, when my brother was watching WWF Superstars one Saturday morning, in the final months of Bob Backlund's final Heavyweight Title reign of the 1980's). I subsequently had the pleasure of seeing bits of The UWF (Mid-South), The AWA and WCCW, all of which appealed to me a great bit more than WCW. Something about WCW just didn't jibe with me, and, quite frankly, I really was never a fan. There was a brief period in the mid-90s (pre-nWo) when I ordered WCW PPVs, but swore them off when I fell asleep before the main event. I hope that answers some questions.

And, yes, I'd rather watch Orton and/or Morrison over Sting any day. Sorry.

Bear, the Crockett Cup DVD idea sounds like a winner. I'd love to check that out! Good call! (Although, I hate to burst your bubble, but I already predicted the return of DX and THE BROTHERS OF DESTRUCTION when The Draft/subsequent talent exchange moved Tri back to Raw and Kane back to SD!. We'll see…!)

Vince should release a 13-DVD set of every 1986 NWA Great American Bash tour card in its entirety. That would be awesome
Posted By: Da Man

It's actually 14 shows that were part of the 1986 GAB tour. Each were highlighted by Ric Flair defending the NWA World title against a different opponent: Road Warrior Hawk, Road Warrior Animal, Wahoo McDaniel, Ronnie Garvin, Magnum TA, Nikita Koloff, Robert Gibson, Ricky Morton (3 times) and Dusty Rhodes (4 times*).

*--Flair would lose the title to Rhodes at the 13th show and drop a rematch to him at the tour finale before finally recapturing the title at a St. Louis house show.

I'm disgusted that I still remember that off the top of my head but 1986 was a fantastic year for wrestling!
Posted By: Jason S

I stand corrected Jason...you are right, 14 shows...and no need to be disgusted, dude....I remember all of that (except the 14-card part!) as well....those cards also had the Magnum-Nikita best of seven series for the US title right? Some great stuff. I recently read somewhere though that box office wise those shows were not a success. I don't understand that. That was epic shit.
Posted By: Da Man

This, I don't think, is out of the realm of possibility, considering the WrestleMania, ROYAL RUMBLE and SummerSlam Anthology collections. Once Vince runs out of his own PPVs, and depending upon the strength of sales for the other WCW-branded DVD sets, a BASHthology could very well be forthcoming.

Regarding Rachael "The Joker" Ray, I love the comparison between her and Mickie James. Even though Rachael still gets to put the "Next FoodStar" on the clock in her syndicated program, the clock is clearly ticking on her value to the network that launched her to...

well...

Rickie Lake type level of audience mainstreamed.

Now I am depressed. I want more of how to eat for less than $40 and less of her making messapies on the 30-minute meals.

Back to wrestling - the DVD series on feuds would be outstanding. Nothing disconnects with the younger fan more than watching one match of an old feud. The guys don't move as quick and frankly you can't feel any of the drama that leads to the payoff. A lot of my favorite feuds are from WCCW in Dallas and Mid-South in Lawlerland. None of these have been properly shown (even the Andy Kaufman deal) because no one has been willing to produce a complete series with any continuity. Yes, we know there was lots of stalling during the 80s with any of the heels! We know the action with the sound down makes one sleepy. A bit of effort on someone who actually loved the era could provide fun viewing for the young and old alike.

I mean come on...they did a series on The Riches...and that show blew!

A set not immediately mentioned in your column but I would pay money for would be the MSG cards from the old WWF in re-mastered digital. Surely they have the ability to produce it and those cards were so red hot, it would be worth the money for me to buy it.

You just can't get enough of Greg Valentine vs. Tito Santana, eh?
Posted By: thegunisgood

Messipies…OUCH! I laughed, but that's mean! LOL!

I don't think the issue with Rachael is so much a case of her outlasting her purpose as it is that she was the prototype (give or take an Emerill) on how to discover a raw talent who connects with her audience and learning how to exploit such talent to such an extent that they stretch her as thin as possible till she loses her passion, which is why Food Network is so intent upon constantly bringing in so much new talent with new faces each season. Sound familiar…?

Yes, I knew you'd understand and appreciate the continuity of program DVD concept, Chris, and you're hitting on all the areas of the business' history that I want to see exploited. I've always maintained the reason I don't like Lawler is because I've never seen the footage that helped him to lay the foundation of his legacy. Speaking of DVDs, I can't believe Vince hasn't created one to honor the royal clown of WWE!

I'd be down with the MSG DVD series, too. Great old matches that were before my time, although it's amazing to watch some of those old matches and see how many people were freakin out into the product and were led so far by so little (relating to your "stalling" reference, of which Pat Patterson was a master!).

Valentine and Santana, as little as I like the latter (there, I got it right this time!), had some fantastic chemistry and I'd love to see some of their old matches!

That's it for this week! Thanks for reading! RESPECK!