Ask 411 Wrestling 08.19.09: Slapping Santino, Renaming Sheiks and Cena Hearts Douglas?

Posted by Mathew Sforcina on 08.19.2009

Who's won 2 out of 3 falls in 2 straight? Did WWF come close to turning Hogan heel? Or come close to doing Hogan V Tyson? Should WWE demographic-ise it's shows? Why did Warrior get a title shot at Summerslam 1992? And did The Rock really get plastic surgery? All these inside! Oh, and I might have got a question wrong last time...

Welcome one and all to the column who is glad to know so many people are reading him who have copies of Wrestlemania VI on tape, Ask 411 Wrestling!

I gotta tell you, Cornette Rebooking The InVasion sounds pretty damm awesome. Although I do hope they keep some level of reality to it. Now, sure, Fantasy Booking is not for everyone, however, I think Guest Booker is unique in that it's not really Fantasy Booking when it's legends like Cornette, or Dillon doing it. That's pretty bloody legit.

But then I've always held a soft spot for Re-Booking, given my history with it on site.

Guess what's next?

Backtalking

Dreamer and the ECW Title: The question was not who held the same title while under contract to different companies. It was holding a certain belt when THE BELT was in two different companies.

Wrestlers and Cups: Well, ok, I cannot categorically state that no wrestler has never worn a cup. And perhaps some guys do. But for the most part, you learn how to take a blow to the crotch and miss the fun bits. You get hit in the upper thigh, basically. Certainly if you plan to do this sort of spot you might wear a jock strap to keep everything compact, but hard, solid protection? Nah, it'd show up.

What was The Lita Column?: This. And yes, at one point 411 was desperate enough to let that sort of stuff get posted. But hey, without the period when you're a git, you never become a great guy.

Bundy became Studd?: Oops.

Common Man: OK.

First off, for every man and his dog and it's fleas that pointed this out, yes, I got this wrong. Wrong wrong wrong.

No, I don't mind being corrected. In fact, I welcome it, especially when it comes with proof. However, there are ways to do it. Posting a comment saying I'm wrong, fine. Posting a comment with a joke or mild dig? I can live with that. Calling me names and calling my parentage into question? That only makes you look like a sad, little man.

Anyway, since I got it wrong, let's try this again: (Oh, and I'll read Bret Hart's book if I ever find a copy of it on sale somewhere down here.)

Manu has a question.

what music did Dusty and Sapphire come out to the ring to at WM 6?

Because on the randy savage dvd, its some generic crap, and not Dusty's themesong, "Common Man". I was looking forward to that little piece of wrestlecrap! and I would assume WWE owned the rights to that song, so its not like all the other instances where they replaced music because they didn't want to pay for it.

Yes, they did indeed replace "Common Man" with that generic stuff. Someday someone will work out all of the WWE's Music rights and set it all out. And on that day, their head will explode.

As for why, while they ‘own' the song, the performance is another matter. And thus, it probably would have cost them $50 to have the song, and only $49.95 for that generic stuff. They probably went in and redid it when they de-WWFed the footage for the Wrestlemania Box Set. And when they went to put it on the Savage DVD, since it was also the sole appearance of Dusty, they decided to save that nickel.

You can tell it's been redubbed by Finkle's announcement, it's clearly a dub.

Your Turn, Smart Guy…

Last week's question:

What show am I? I am a North American PPV event, somewhat famous. The brand name I was an edition of no longer exists as a PPV. I featured a title change, and a title retention, despite two more singles champions and a set of tag team champions having matches that were not for those belts. Someone won two matches by Submission in the same night, while the title change was by a non-usual means of victory (even before you take into account the outside interference). You saw ‘two' companies wrestling (the hosts and a tag team from another), an inanimate object wrestling, and Chyna being a part of two straight matches without having a match herself. A show with a Match Of The Year in it, I am… What?

And the answer would be Viewable as a Jpeg here.

Let's try this idea out. I'm going to give you a list of connections. Your job is to name what each connection is. So, for instance, Michelle McCool > Maryse > Mickie James would be "Diva's Championship Lineage".

Masahiro Chono > Steve Austin > Owen Hart
Don Muraco > Harley Race > Randy Savage > Ted DiBiase > Tito Santana > Bret Hart
New York > Minneapolis > Raleigh > San Jose > Uniondale > Phoenix
Tommy Dreamer > Bradshaw > Crash Holly > Tommy Dreamer
Ivory > Jazz > Victoria
Mike Rotunda and Barry Windham > Hulk Hogan
Bart Gunn > Scott Steiner > Owen Hart > Kwang > Bob Backlund > Billy Gunn > Virgil
Rick Martel > Jake Roberts > Triple H
Jeff Jarrett > Raven > Jeff Jarrett > Kurt Angle > Kaz > Samoa Joe > Suicide > Kurt Angle
Steve Blackman > Big Show > Kane

Questions, Questions, Who's Got The Questions?

The ever-present Rob S starts us off.

Were there ever any serious talks about turning Hogan heel during his first run with the WWF, before leaving for WCW? If so, was the idea rejected because of the fear of it backfiring? I assume that the WWF/E was far more reluctant to do this back then because of Hogan being so over as a face with the fans. But in his last year or two with the company, when maybe his character was fading slightly, would it have been feasible to turn him heel to liven things up and make him a more dynamic character?

No. Because while he was fading, he was still Hulk Freaking Hogan. Although now people tend to view the last year and a bit of Hogan's run in the WWF as being an abject failure where he was despised wherever he went, he was still popular, and he was still a draw. More so than Bret, who tanked enough that the plan was to have Yoko walk out of Wrestlemania IX as champ.

Yes, his star was fading. And maybe if he had stuck around for a bit they might have talked about him turning heel (perhaps against Bret), but there were no serious talks about turning Hogan heel at any point in his Hulkamania run. You don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs, even if the eggs are smaller. Unless…

Also, I was wondering about the specific circumstances surrounding Hogan's departure from the WWF for WCW in the first place. Was it the WWF's steroid controversy, Ted Turner's offer, politics, or was there more to it than just those factors?

411 owns

It wasn't the steroid controversy, as Hogan was gone from the company for nearly a year and a half before he gave his evidence in the Vince McMahon trial.

And it wasn't Ted Turner's offer, as that didn't come until he'd already left the WWF.

Politics… Maybe.

From Hulk's point of view, Hogan was tired of being on the road, wanted to spend more time with his family, and maybe, he recognized that the fans were tiring of his act. So, he chose to leave the WWF and turn his popularity and name recognition and make it as an actor, full time, with "Thunder In Paradise" as his first major vehicle post WWF.

From Vince's point of view, while Bret had tanked as Champ, Hulk's absences got out of control. Being a cross-media star is all well and good, but if he's to be the champ and be Hulk Hogan he needs to, you know, wrestle occasionally. Plus he still had some resentment from Hogan's attitude. He was Vince McMahon dammit, he could make anyone into Hulk Hogan. So, let Hogan go, have Yoko squash Old Hogan, find New Hogan, have New Hogan beat Yoko, everyone wins!

The truth's somewhere in the middle of that. But no, Steroids have nothing to do with it, Ted Turner even less.

The Anthler should prepare for some degree of disappointment.

Hey S-Man, great stuff as always.

While some question who has achieved the most title reigns (i think it's still jerry lawler), my question refers to the number of different promotions who are willing to recognize a wrestler as one of their champions at some point in time. So instead of comparing the number of championship reigns (which can be an eschewed value, especially if the individual owns their own promotion like Jerry Lawler or Carlos Colon) I wonder who has been recognized by the greatest variety of different promotions as a champion of any kind, including tournament winners (King of Europe Cup, ECWA Super 8, AJPW Champion's Carnival, PWG Battle for Los Angeles, WWF King of the Ring, Super J-Cup, etc). Also having amalgamated titles (J-Crown, I-Crown) count as recognition from each individual company that has their championship as apart of the amalgamation.
Factoring all these variables, which wrestler can claim to be the most 'universally recognized' as championship material in
1. The Modern Era (2000-onwards), but active wrestlers can include their past achievements before 2000
2. Of All time.

My wikipedia inspired educated guess would have to go to Mr. I-Crown, Mike Quackenbush, who has been recognized by 15 different promotions as a champion.
If you can answer this, i bow down to your superior research abilities and proclaim you a wrestling knowledge GAWD.

I could spend a lot of time going though lists of guys. Or, I could simply go to the guy who has made a gimmick out of being the guy who's held the most gold anywhere.

My vote, in both Modern and All Time, for the guy with the greatest number of companies to give him a title/important win, is, drumroll please.



"The King of Old School", "Mr. Wrestling 3" Steve Corino!

*blows on his party favor*

After all, Steve has held gold in, deep breath, One Pro Wrestling, Absolute Intense Wrestling, AWA Superstars of Wrestling, Appalachia Pro Wrestling, Blue Water Championship Wrestling, Brookwood 4 Wrestling, East Coast Wrestling Association, Eastern Shores Wrestling, Extreme Championship Wrestling, Funking Conservatory, German Stampede Wrestling, Hawai'i Championship Wrestling (which was a tag title win with Mr. Wrestling II which proves my old point of him being the ‘legit' Mr. Wrestling III), Independent Wrestling Federation, Independent Pro Wrestling, Independent Pro Wrestling Alliance, Intercontinental Wrestling Association, International High Powered Wrestling, KYDA Pro Wrestling, Major League Wrestling, Mid-Eastern Wrestling Federation, NWA Florida, NWA New Jersey, NWA New Jersey/New York, NWA Southwest, NWA 2000, Organization of Modern Extreme Grappling Arts, Pennsylvania Championship Wrestling, Platinum Pro Wrestling, Premier Wrestling Federation, Pro Wrestling World-1, Pro Wrestling Zero1, Pure Wrestling Association, Southern Championship Wrestling, Union of Independent Professional Wrestlers, United States Championship Wrestling, United States Extreme Wrestling, AND World Wrestling Council for a total of 37 different companies that have put enough faith in Corino to hold gold.

That's really impressive, and I seriously doubt you'll find a better result.

Next up, Dom wants our secrets.

Love the column. I was wondering how exactly a site like 411 gets their news/rumors. I know that most of the time every bit of news on 411 has a link to their source at the bottom, but where does the news or rumor originally come from? Do certain websites have people who work in the front offices/on air talent of tna/wwe/roh who tip them off? How does this all work? I know there is some b.s. news and rumors, but what is the process for legit news?

Well, frankly, the only ‘legit' news is whatever is posted on WWE or TNA or ROH's official News Pages, or the official news pages/press releases from whatever company or person you're after. And/or obvious news, such as when new sites open, or blogs etc.

Wrestling doesn't have many, if any, true ‘Journalists', in the mainstream version of the word. What they have are leaks. Lots and lots of leaks. For the most part, the ‘major' sites tend to get a lot of their stuff from sources within the companies. They can come from on air guys, writers, backstage workers, anyone really. Hence why you have to be somewhat sceptical of all rumor news. Especially now that Vince and Steph try to deliberately fool us sometimes.

Given that I don't run or work for a site that is on the front line, rather a superior site that collates all the news and gives it to you in one easy to read place with superb analysis, great reviews and occasional awesome stolen gifs, I can't tell you exactly how it happens. And I'm sure those that do will claim I have this all wrong.

But basically, yeah, there's a whole bunch of people that the ‘names' of the IWC know, who might pass on info and/or get called up when news floats about. Hence it can, and often is, filtered through bias. So take it with salt.

I found him! I finally found him! HBK's Smile, everyone's been worried sick about you…

1) Why did Valentine go over Steamboat at WMIV? I can see why you job out the departing wrestler, but Valentine was on the verge of JTTS territory and he didn't get any real rub from the win. Whereas had Steamboat won, he would have met Savage, who could have gotten quite a rub from avenging his loss from the previous WM. As it was, Steamboat left without ever losing to Savage on TV.

No, but Savage beat the guy who beat Steamboat, so he in a way did beat Steamboat. Plus, more importantly, that would lead to a face/face match, specifically one involving the guy you had winning everything. The last thing you do in a tournament where you want to create the next huge babyface is put him in a situation where the fans might be split on the matter. Furthermore, would reminding everyone about how Savage nearly killed Steamboat been a good idea at this point?

But yeah, if it had been today, they probably would have had Steamboat advance. But it was different back then.

2) What was the expected payoff to Mike Tyson's planned referring of the Hogan-Savage match on The Main Event? I remember seeing many magazine covers and even a newspaper article speculating about a possible Hogan-Tyson match at WrestleMania VI, but the Royal Rumble, which sowed the seeds for Hogan-Warrior took place before Tyson's KO loss to Buster Douglas. Explain please.

Ok. Those articles you read were totally inaccurate. There was, to the best of my knowledge, never a plan for Hogan/Tyson. The only possible way I could see such a match happen was if the original plans of having Warrior win the title off of Perfect went off, and they might have done Hogan/Tyson.

If they were insane. Hogan V Tyson, in Canada? That is just a ridiculous concept for the time, there is now way they could clear that with the Boxing bodies, no way they could train Tyson, and it'd be a split crowd, Tyson was liked back then. No, not on the cards, even before the upset.

3) Both Sgt. Slaughter in 1990 and Steve Austin in 2001 were in the midst of some very fresh heel runs when outside forces watered down their effects considerably. Slaughter changed from a xenophobic patriot who couldn't deal with the end of The Cold War to a simple Iraqi sympathizer while Austin changed from a paranoid, frantic champ so desperate to keep the title that he "sold his soul" to Vince to the face of The Alliance going back against Vince. My question is – have there been any other clever runs tarnished by outside events like The Gulf War and the WCW purchase?

Well, Slaughter's run you'll have a grilling for in the comments section perhaps. The scale you're talking about is fairly rare. Certainly aspects of characters have been forced to change due to outside events, Sting losing the trench coat after Columbine, Sting losing the zip line after Owen. Probably the only gimmick change anywhere near those two would be Mohammad Hussan, who's run towards the main event was derailed thanks to the London Bombings and bad timing. Although that was hardly a clever run by the time it got there, the cleverness had long since vanished by that point…

Sometimes, comedy and informantive can co-exist. I give you Jim Cornette, discussing just why he slapped Santino Marella about.

Jones links to not only the last question, but the video as well!

why during the 1990 Gulf War, or Iraq part 1, did Sgt Slaughter bring in the Iron Shiek as a manager. Isnt the wwf aware that 1 Iran and Iraq are 2 different countires, and 2, they spent the 1980's at war with each other?

Kinda. I mean, they did make the Iron Sheik into a different guy, Col. Mustafa =/= The Iron Sheik in WWE History. And while yes, on one level it's totally illogical, Iron Sheik was an old hand who looked and sounded Arabic who they could easily slide in and it would work since American Fans Are Stupid.



So, yes, they knew, but they assumed no-one would notice and/or care. (And if you REALLY need justification: Sgt. Slaughter and Sheik were old enemies, and so on some level they had respect for each other. And since Slaughter had embraced his anti-USA stance, Sheik wanted to join him in his quest. But he couldn't join as The Iron Sheik, he had to go by a pseudonym so he could play along with the Iraq thing.)

and is the character Santino Marella some sort of smark tribute to Gorilla Monsoon whose real last name was Marella?

It's not smark if the WWE is doing it. Then it's insider. But yes, it is in tribute.

Sam asks about Cena hand gestures, since that worked out SO well last time…

What is the significance of John Cena throwing up the three fingers 'Triple Threat-esque'? He calls himself 'The Franchise' in his entrance theme. Does he yearn to be Shane Douglas? Or was he a fan of his?

Yes, I'm sure deep down Cena wants to be Douglas.



Well, we never got a consensus last time, but the most common answer was that it's not a Triple Threat hand signal, it's a Boston hand signal.

And yes, I only included this question to have a Chandler.

Dan asks about Summerslam 1992.

Hello, I've been reading this column for a while and I have a few questions about Summer Slam 1992. I had heard that the original plan was for the event to be held at the Capital Centre in Landover, MD. My first question is why was Ric Flair not the challenger for the WWF title? I mean for some reason, they stuck the Warrior in there to challenge the Macho Man and he had just returned to the WWF.

They ‘stuck' him in because he was meant to win the World title and turn heel at the event, and had agreed to it but changed his mind right before the show. Which explains the placement of the match. Warrior wins belt, turns heel, gets Razor as lackey. What could have been…

If the event had been held somewhere besides London, do you think the card had been the same? If there would have been other matches, what do you think we would have seen?

No, the card would have been the same, just the order. Had they not been in London, then once they went with Savage keeping the belt that probably would have been the main. Although given the result, maybe not. But the card would have been the same. The outcomes on the other hand…

Jerry and Jesse has similar questions, so I'll post one to answer both.

When was the last time on pay per view or television did the WWE/WWF have a 2 out of 3 falls match that was ended in the first 2 falls. At The Bash the other night there was no doubt we were gonna be getting a stretcher match but also thought what if they had just ended the match in the 2nd fall and we hadn't got to it. The last one I personally recall was in my early months of watching wrestling... The May edition of Saturday Nights Main Event when The British Bulldogs beat The Hart Foundation in 2 straight falls... surely that isn't the last time is it?

No, the last time a major 2 out of 3 falls match went 2 straight was July 25, 2006, WWE Vengeance, Ric Flair vs. Mick Foley. Foley challenged Flair to a 2 out of 3 falls match to prove he was better, by beating Flair at his own kind of match. Foley would lose the first fall by pinfall, then get DQed for the second fall. Although he won the war that night by leaving Flair in a pool of blood.

MVP won the US title by winning 2 straight falls over Chris Benoit at Judgement Day 07, Playmaker for one fall, cradle for another.

Another, slightly obscure occurrence of this was at the UK only PPV Insurrextion 2001, from London. On that show, Chris Benoit beat Kurt Angle 2 straight, via Flying Headbutt for fall 1 and rolling cradle for fall 2 (which seems really popular for a second straight fall), then showed that he had Angle's medals down his trunks the whole time.

Long story.

Anyway, in the older days of the WWWF, lots of matches were 2 out of 3 falls, and thus lots ended in 2 straight falls. Some even saw title changes. Which makes sense, if you use it more often, you'll go with this booking more often, and if you use the rules less, it's less likely.

And sometimes it's forced, like when Beth beat Candice 2-0 after Candice broke her clavicle, Oct 22nd, 07.

neverAcquiesce wants to hear about plastic surgery.

I remember reading that The Rock wore that track/workout/etc. suit in late 1998/early '99 because he had some cosmetic surgery done and wanted to hide it until it fully healed. Any truth to that?

Yep, he's admitted as much. He had some liposuction done to counteract, well, his Samoan genes a little, since if you look at most Samoans they are certainly very solid people. Thus, when Rock's stomach began to expand, he had work done to counter this. His first appearance without a shirt after he had it was Wrestlemania XV, where you can still just see the scars.

And hey, more power to him. It's as valid as getting tattoos or boob jobs…

And another Rock question, from Michael

Hey man what's up? I am new to this column but have viewed it before, so this question may or may not have been asked already. I recently was watching most of The Rock's title reign from 2000, well the one from King of the Ring '00 until No Mercy '00. I noticed he would never really have a clean pay-per-view bout even though he was the top guy. (big feud with HHH in 2000 and he does not even pin him in the 6 man tag at KOR, Benoit wins title by DQ at Fully Loaded then the match is restarted by Foley, SSlam was weird with the whole Angle-hhh thing even though rock won, and Unforgiven when Benoit won the title without ref seeing 'Taker's foot on the rope and Foley coming out and restarting it) Do you have any idea why he just didn't reign cleanly and look unstoppable for his best title run? It's like we fans were screwed with and to this day it seems whomever the top guys are holding the title(s) as a face they don't go through that crazy stuff.

Because Rock was about as over as God at that point. Rock didn't need to win cleanly, the guy jobbed to half the roster at various points, Bossman, Steph, anyone, and he was still as over as he was prior. He didn't need to win ‘clean' all the time, the fans still loved him despite dirty finishes, which helped to elevate his opponents. And he did get his clean win at Summerslam, it's just Angle's concussion caused some problems to work through.

Next up is John asking about ECW.

Hey guys, I remember a few years ago coming across a video of Tommy Dreamer, probably in the original ECW, giving a piledriver to a woman, I'm not sure now who it was. What I remember is, while Dreamer had her in the position for the drop the woman's breast popped out of her top. You can see her trying to cover them up with one arm. The whole time she is doing this Dreamer is turning and facing each side of the crowd with her breast out. My questions are, when was this?, Who was the woman? Did he know her boobs were hanging out? If he didn't then why turn her around and face all four sides of the crowd?

Well, I found the video, and no, I can't link it on site.

The woman was Francine, in the match of Tommy Dreamer & Beulah vs. Shane Douglas & Francine, held on December 7, 1996. And no, Tommy didn't know her boob was hanging out at first, but you can see her talking when he faces camera, and he stops turning (which he did whenever he piledrove a woman, normally to give the fans a shot of her panties since usually they would be wearing a skirt) and then drives her down. He couldn't just drop her quickly, since he hated her in character and needed to make sure she was safe out of character.

Big Show is on Jason's mind.

From what I've read and seen, Andre the Giant suffered from gigantism, and this was why he was, well, a giant, but also why he died so young. So I'm curious, does the Big Show have the same malady? He seems to have followed the same type of body morphing as Andre. So if this is the case, is Show not long for this life? He's 37 now, and Andre died at 46. Has Show ever discussed this?

Yes, he has. Big Show does, or rather, did suffer the same condition Andre did, Acromegaly, which sees the pituitary gland produce excess growth hormone after the sufferer hits puberty. Basically that growth spurt you get when you hit puberty? Some people just keep going.

However, while Andre lived with the condition his entire life and never got treatment, Big Show has, in the early 1990's he had surgery done on his gland that has halted the condition. So while Show's probably going to have some medical problems later on, he's not going to suffer like Andre did.

From Big Show to Angle, Ollyparris takes us.

I'm absolutely convinced that I saw The Rock vs Kurt Angle on one of the 'B' shows before Angle became a real star. The match only went 6-7 minutes, wasn't much more than a squash and ended clean with the People's Elbow. I can't find a record of it on any website, but this may be down to me watching international editions of the shows rather than the US versions. It also doesn't appear to be on any compilations or Youtube.

I've an inkling that this match took place just after Angle's loss to Tazz at Royal Rumble 2000, as I remember thinking 'Hm, that's the end of Angle then'. Can you shed any light on this, and is it kicking around the internet?

I'm fairly sure you're referring to Angle's first official (‘proper') loss. January 31st, 2000. Angle loses to The Rock in 5:32 after the People's Elbow on Raw.

My Damm Opinion

Jason has a simple question.

Is Jack Swagger the next Kurt Angle?

Well, he may not want to be after the problems Angle's had recently.

In terms of the in ring work… Maybe. It's hard to say. Certainly he's not as intuitive as Angle was, but it's certainly possible. But put a gun to my head, and I'd have to say no. Angle's a rare breed, which is bad.

And good.

Nick expects to be called an idiot. He won't be.

Hey Sforcina....Keep up the great work!

I've got an opinion question for you.

My question is this. Why doesn't WWE use their brands to appeal to different demographics?

Monday Night Raw could be a tweener show, geared towards family friendly without the stupid gimmicks, ECW could be geared towards the 17-35 demographic, WCW (New Wed. show) could be a catchall like raw, but geared more to 17-35 without the sex & violence, Smackdown could be straight WWE circa-1989, aimed specifically at kids and Superstars could mix up Raw & Smackdown strictly for the kiddies.

Why would Vince McMahon surrender any portion of the wrestling audience to potential competitors? Not only would the WWE fully implement it's monopoly, but doing so would enable them to create a cradle-to-grave audience, where each viewer graduates to each show through their lifetime, and the superstars could then move along with their audience to each show? I think it makes a lot of sense...but I'd love to hear if you think I'm clever or an idiot and why.

Well, there's two issues here.

The general idea of giving each brand an identity? I'm totally in favor of that. And no, making Raw like SNL-lite does not constitute an identity. JP Prag has discussed this before, that you can get more fans with different products than just the same one in different packages. Of course, the problem is that WWE tried that, and PPV buyrates went down, so they panicked and went into the current model.

As for your specific ideas… I can see a couple problems with that layout, namely PPV and talent moving. You can't keep talent on one show for years until their demographic has moved up, unless I'm misunderstanding that point.

But more importantly: If PPVs are still cross brand, then kiddies can't get them since the ECW stuff is in it. And if you go back to sole brand PPVs, the buyrates will go down too much for WWE to take. Plus you still have the WM problem.

Unique Identities are good. Demographic splits like you suggest aren't feasible, in my view. Sorry.

And on that note, my neck is killing me, so so long and thanks for all the fish for now.