Column of Honor Special Edition 08.24.09: Danielson, The Desire for Success and The Damage Done to Ring of Honor
Posted by Ari Berenstein on 08.24.2009
Bryan Danielson is leaving Ring of Honor—great opportunity for him, not so good for ROH amid the reports that WWE is trying to “raid” its talent.
A note before we begin: I wasn't sure if I was going to come back to column writing at all since my hiatus began in late June. If I was coming back, I was thinking about returning from my extended summer break sometime in early September. I'm back a bit earlier than anticipated because I have some thoughts I have to get off my chest regarding the Bryan Danielson signing to WWE. Thanks for clicking and reading. -–Ari--
Danielson & The Desire for Success
Last night news broke that "American Dragon" Bryan Danielson "agreed in principle" to a WWE contract. Danielson has been a founding father of Ring of Honor, wrestling for them for seven years and even was a part of the main event of their first show. Danielson's presence has been instrumental in ROH's long-term success, especially during his time as ROH World Champion from September 2005 through December 2006. Danielson will be making a farewell tour of Ring of Honor throughout the September shows and his finale will be in New York City at the Grand Ballroom wrestling against current ROH World Champion Austin Aries on September 26th.
This is Danielson's first major decision to sign with one of the "Big Two" wrestling companies—WWE or TNA. Although having been under a developmental contract with WWE years earlier, Danielson had shied away from the mainstream stage. His decision to sign with WWE right now is filled with consequences for ROH, which is at this point at a crucial time in their history. It also signals a direct challenge from WWE, who are reportedly looking to sign more ROH affiliated talent. Now Ring of Honor, which has made it through losing many valuable wrestlers such as Samoa Joe and CM Punk to the Big Two, must try to succeed without someone who was arguably their most marquee name on the current roster.
I'm happy and proud for Bryan Danielson. He has accomplished so much during his time on the independent scene, and he definitely earned every bit of success he obtained. He has worked the independent wrestling scene for ten years now and in that time has created many amazing matches and moments, some of which I had the pleasure to attend firsthand. He was in the first ROH main event ever, racked up championships in America and abroad and he has been a draw for many other independent promotions all around the world. You can't argue with success, critical reviews and the adulation of many on the independent wrestling scene. Danielson has all of those during his time on the independents.
The representation of indie spirit in the world of pro wrestling, Danielson was the unofficial case study for the independent wrestler making a go of it without being signed to one of the major wrestling companies. When Samoa Joe, CM Punk, Homicide and others were beginning to dabble in the waters of TNA or WWE, Danielson stuck his ground and moved on with his career the way he saw fit. The "wrestling freedom" promo he cut after winning the ROH World Title in 2005 from James Gibson solidified that he was a man who did things on his own terms. He fervently decreed that the ROH World title represented "wrestling freedom" and that he would do his best to live up to and carry out that ideal. ROH fans embraced Danielson as "their guy". Danielson even calmed down some fans in attendance that night as they chanted "sell-out" at the leaving James Gibson, who was on his way back to WWE after nearly a year's stay in the company. Danielson said Gibson wasn't a sell-out, and after they both poured their sweaty bodies and beating hearts out on the mat that night, you could definitely see why he thought that way.
The problem with believing a wrestling promo is that no matter how genuine or believable it is at that specific time, in the end all it amounts to is a wrestling promo. The very nature of a promo is to make the fans believe at that time in a program or angle or point of view. When the words end, the emotions carry over and make you want to buy tickets or watch a show. The magic is in the words and in that particular timeframe, but it can't last forever. There have been countless wrestlers who have stated they were sticking with independent wrestling and would not be going anywhere who then decided to sign on with TNA or WWE. It has been four years since that Danielson promo, which is a long time, enough to make him think about new opportunities and how the grass is greener. He had received a few offers from WWE in the past and didn't take them at the time. This time however, he finally said yes.
I don't call Danielson's decision to sign with WWE being a "sell-out". I call that being brave. It is a bold move to make for Danielson for such a time as this. This likely the right decision for him at this time. It seems like he is ready to take a new path in his life. You don't always just stay in one place forever—if the independent wrestling fans has learned anything these past few years seeing guys like Joe and Punk move on and make it, it is that.
Danielson hasn't publically commented about his thoughts and motivations behind signing with WWE. However, judging from past interviews he is a man who is constantly challenging himself and looking at the next goal in his life. Several times he has considered moving on from pro wrestling to joining the Peace Corps. He has travelled all around the world. He has learned and trained Mixed Martial Arts. The move to WWE is a continuation looking to challenge himself and take advantage of opportunities, making his own way and being successful at it. I completely understand this mentality and I accept his decision completely.
There are those who are skeptical about how well Danielson will translate to eclectic nature of World Wrestling Entertainment programming. Critics and cynics have attacked his persona, his "apparent" lack of charisma or his ability to translate his wrestling ability within the WWE structure. However, Danielson has always been a "don't judge a book by its cover" wrestler. He has grown and matured with his promo work, and within just a few seconds of listening to him these days you can pick up on his passion and his emotion. He also has an underrated sense of humor and comic timing as seen most recently in his match against Kenny Omega from PWG One Hundred (which I fully recommend to any and everyone as well as the shows Express Written Consent and Ninety-Nine). That match was half farcical and at times gut-busting funny. It is this diversity in emotional display that will serve him exceedingly well in being a "storyteller" through his promos or through his matches in WWE. Fans who don't know about Danielson (and there will be plenty of them) may very well not embrace Danielson upon first impression. I have no doubt that he will win over many of those who doubt when they see him roaring for a comeback in a match or delivering a passionate promo that makes you really believe. Fans are going to embrace that passion in a big way if and once they see that from him.
Danielson's lack of size could affect him (he is about five-foot, nine inches) although in 2009 lack of height is no longer as much of an issue towards making it in WWE. It is true that Vince McMahon still has his hang ups about pushing large giants and those with large muscles. Yes, the well-quoted line about being six feet tall and two-forty to get hired is still out there. There have been plenty of exceptions to that rule and even the signing of Danielson is a marker of that exception. Of course, a part of success in wrestling is going to be how you look, but again, Danielson has always broken past that first impression and proved himself. These days it's more about how valuable you make yourself to the company and how you can make the company money. Wherever Danielson is placed on the card and in whatever persona / character he is given he will prove himself to be a very valuable commodity. He has the integrity and the dedication to show the WWE office that desire to succeed and the talent to pull it off.
There is already an example for Danielson to follow as far as winning over the cynics and creating a stable spot for himself in WWE. CM Punk began his WWE / ECW debut at the Hammerstein Ballroom in front of 2,000 hardcore fans who knew about him. They wanted him to succeed, even willed him on that night in his performance against Justin Credible. However, It was a rocky road through the first year of his run in when it comes to crowd reaction and backstage politics. There were pockets of fans chanting "CM Punk" like crazy, but also a backlash or sometimes apathy from other fans. A major turning point and indicator that Punk would be a success in WWE came at Survivor Series 2006 when Punk was crazy over with the entire crowd, chanting his name louder than even Degeneration-X. Three years later, Punk is one of the more over acts on a WWE show, is their top champion on one of the major brands and is in an incredibly important position. He is a success story and an example that Danielson can follow and blaze his own trail in WWE.
How will the backstage agents and office treat Danielson? I actually think he will get a fair shake. Of course he will have to work hard and be humble and work his way up, but I think Danielson will get a chance. Remember, WWE knew about Danielson for quite some time. They even brought him in to do a dark match against Lance Cade (who at the time was receiving a singles push) and was allowed to win. They don't do that for everyone. Even if Danielson has to spend some time in FCW earning his place there and working his way up, he's going to work hard to flourish. Not to mention, Danielson has friends in WWE, some in high places, enough to help him adjust to life in the "big time": Shawn Michaels, his former trainer (who he trained directly under, unlike Paul London) and William Regal (who isn't always regarded well politically, but has stuck around in WWE for years and can definitely help him get used to the climate there). They will help guide and shape his career there. There will be a few familiar faces for him there, including CM Punk, MVP and Evan Bourne.
About a year ago, a teacher with whom I am acquainted who was a former professional wrestler and worked as an "enhancement talent" for WWF in the early 80's watched Bryan Danielson vs. Samoa Joe from "Fight of the Century". He was incredibly impressed with both men, but definitely more so in Danielson. This man is close friends with Bob Backlund and remarked frequently throughout the match how much Danielson reminded him of Bob. Not just the clean cut look and the tights, but the workmanship, the passion and the dedication. He complimented Danielson on his ability to control the crowd not just through mat work (which he was incredibly impressed with) but also through body control, his facial expressions and his pacing of the match (since it was an hour draw, it was a hell of an example of Danielson's ability). This man was so impressed with Danielson's effort that after watching this match he immediately asked me to recommend him ROH DVDs with Danielson's best efforts on it. If Danielson can convince one man of his talent, he can convince tens of thousands.
As far as what Danielson does in the ring itself, his moves and adjusting to shorter timeframes for his matches, he is already in a position to do well with that format. Over the last year or two Danielson has simplified his offense. While he does bring out his grappling skills for major bouts, he has concentrated on incorporating a more strike based offense into his repertoire. That makes him very WWE-friendly already with his different kicks, running leg lariats and such. He has his running forearms. He has the spine kicks. He has the chops. He also works the ropes more often than before—a WWE specialty. He can tune down or simplify the chain wrestling to get to the essence of what works about his in-ring submissions and grappling. As far as a finisher (which is reality is the least important factor to think about right now but shouldn't go ignored), The Undertaker has used the Triangle Choke for a while, so that is likely out, but he can try out Cattle Mutiliation and see if it works or in a pinch use the always handy unbreakable Small Package, which WWE fans see end a match many times. In short, Bryan Danielson has what it takes to use what works the best in his matches and apply that within the WWE framework.
The Damage Done to Ring of Honor--Some by WWE, Some Self-inflicted
Even an ardent ROH fan can't ignore that Ring of Honor has been through many ups and downs this year. They've had some great successes (such as the tag team division, Austin Aries's awesome performances and their signing to ROH on HDNet) but they've also made choices which have led to mistakes both small and large. They have bungled programs (Black vs. Jacobs) and have hurt the pushes or over pushed some talent to their detriment (Tyler Black, Jerry Lynn). Signing wrestling legend "The Nature Boy" Ric Flair to a multi-appearance, mega dollar contract in early March appeared to be the right call at the time, but hindsight now suggests otherwise. The Flair signing coupled with the failure to resign top talent like Danielson and Nigel McGuinness to locked-in contracts (which would have prohibited their leaving for WWE) and lower DVD sales (as reported by the Wrestling Observer and other websites) opened the door for what is only now beginning to happen, the WWE signing ROH talent away.
I wrote my opinion about it it earlier in the year but Ill repeat it here: ROH should have taken all that money they had used to sign Flair and used to it to make sure Danielson and Nigel McGuinness signed on the dotted line. If Danielson wanted to leave because he wanted to spread his wings that's fine and I'd never begrudge him that. Maybe Danielson was on his way out for a while now, and maybe nothing they offered could change it. I don't know the particulars of their contract negotiations but it is my opinion that ROH should have given whatever Danielson wanted as far as money in order to keep him. He's THAT valuable to ROH. I know the thought (and have expressed it at times) when wrestlers leave ROH is no one wrestler is more valuable than the company as a whole, but if there is any exception to that, its Bryan Danielson.
ROH wrote a very classy news piece about Danielson leaving and mentioned how excited they were that Danielson would be leaving for WWE. Their statement in part said, "We couldn't be happier for Bryan and all of his successes, many of which Ring of Honor has been proud to witness first hand" and "we look forward to looking on in earnest as he shows everyone watching the wrestling world's biggest stage just why that is." I'm sure ROH officials and wrestlers are happy for Danielson for this signing, but on the other hand you have to think that Cary Silikin and Adam Pearce know just how much this move is going to hurt them and what it could ultimately cost them in the long run. Not only did they lose a top name for their product, they could lose more wrestlers and they need to figure out who can fill in the holes at the top of the card created by the loss of Danielson and any others that sign with WWE.
Reports also have ROH in financial trouble over the last few months, including reports from the Observer about bouncing some checks to wrestlers (which were eventually made good) and not bringing in enough profit through DVD sales. They have tried to change their financial strategy to concentrate on selling television rights to international markets, but so far no real news about that. In addition, DVD sales are way down. Their DVDs (which for the most part I have enjoyed) have become skippable and not a must buy product to many fans. In addition, so many fans who were upset at Gabe Sapolsky's departure and frustrated by the changes in direction of the product have left. They stopped buying the DVDs, attending shows and many haven't come back. Message boards all over the internet are littered with that kind of discussion. I personally know of at least two people who have stopped buying ROH DVDs for various reasons including the current direction of the product and that they don't "need" to buy the DVDs and neither one of them has a column or spends a lot of time on the internet (as an aside ROH's shows from June through September all do seem to have regained that "must buy" luster, but will they be able to sell is the real question). That kind of money you lose when customers walk away is not easily regained. ROH banked on getting new business with the "casual" audience, the one with families and kids, but it hasn't quite worked out that well for them.
They've had to paper their Philadelphia HDNet tapings heavily. They did not re-up their Pay Per View deal (which I agreed with at the time regarding it helping the continuity issues, but it did close a revenue stream for at least six months due to their no-compete). They reduced the "must buy" status of their DVD product, thus reducing their profit from an industry that was already seeing lower sales figures. They diverted their attention from what really mattered to the fan base they had in hand and tried to find new fans at the cost of what they had earned and saved away.
If ROH had never signed Flair and spent all that money, and instead reinvested that money into the talent they already had under contract, maybe Danielson never leaves. It's common knowledge that several major ROH names including Danielson and Nigel McGuinness never resigned contracts. Danielson still may have been a main event talent but he was never in the same position on the cards as he was before. Maybe it's not about money or positioning for Danielson, but about opportunity. That's great for Danielson, but from a business perspective, Danielson is an incredibly valuable, hard to replace commodity for ROH and if I were in charge I would have offered money, positioning and opportunity for Danielson to sign on the line.
The lack of new contracts which meant that ROH was back to the same system it had been under throughout 2002-2007. They were ripe for the poaching by either one of the big two, WWE or TNA.
I'm surprised WWE didn't come for ROH sooner. ROH signed a television deal with HDNet, but the amount of available viewers and their not-so-high profile timeslot on Saturdays meant they weren't ever going to be any real inconvenience for WWE. However, when HDNet decided to move the ROH show to Monday nights at 8pm, right before Monday Night Raw, that was the difference that has seemingly begun this process of WWE "raiding" ROH and independent talent. The HDNet advertising campaign for ROH's program was even more bold and audacious, claiming it was "the ONLY hour of pro wrestling on Monday Night" and that "Pro wrestling has returned to Monday night". Those statements were perhaps the worst advertising slogans that could have been used, regardless of their veracity given the variety show that WWE Raw has become these past few months. It's tantamount to walking right into the lion's cage and slapping a sleeping lion right in the face and then calling its mother a whore. For WWE, Monday nights are their property, their time to shine. Anyone who dares try to take a piece of that real estate is asking for trouble.
No surprise then that starting last week there were huge rumors spreading that WWE was looking to "raid" ROH talent. It was a response to ROH's actions, because no matter how low that ROH was on the television totem pole, they were still there on Mondays, the WWE's territory. Now we get the word that WWE is looking to sign up a lot of the ROH talent. It is not a coincidence that this is happening during the same week that ROH changed its timeslot. It is not a coincidence that this is happening as WWE stars Chris Jericho and The Miz are complaining in interviews with the press about the stale main event scene in WWE and the need to create new stars.
Why is it that WWE is signing more of the current ROH talent away right now? Did WWE suddenly "discover" the talent pool of ROH? No, of course not. However, this is not happening because WWE views ROH as a "threat". ROH is not and will likely never be a threat to WWE. No, I think this is part of an attempt for WWE to respond to the insult of someone being on their territory. Let's make no mistake, this is a great happening for the independent talent—regardless of the reason for it, they have or will about to be made offers that could help to make them some substantial money and move up to the "big time".
We've heard the argument that a wrestler under a WWE developmental contract usually makes less than an established independent wrestler on the independent and international scene (check Colt Cabana's new shoot interview for more on that). However, that doesn't mean wrestlers won't be tempted by the opportunity to "make it" in WWE. There have been success stories (Punk, Bourne, even London and Kendrick for a while) and failures (Cabana, Albright, Kendrick's last run on Raw), but at the least they get the chance to be a success or failure. Who knows, maybe this even gives the independent wrestlers some leverage for conducting contract negotiations with WWE that they could bypass the FCW developmental league. Even if not, it is still an appealing prospect for those who think it's time to finally go there and see what they can make for themselves in the mainstream wrestling world.
Did ROH not see this coming? Haven't they learned from the past? This all smacks largely of the original Extreme Championship Wrestling circa 1999, when they finally landed a spot on a national television cable network. The ECW on TNN (what is now SpikeTV) program started shaky because within a few months two of its most important and valuable acts—Taz and The Dudley Boys—were signed to WWE (then WWF) contracts. This happened in large part as a calculated and systemic counter measure to ECW getting a TV contract. Taz was BELOVED by fans, and you could say that he and RVD (who would sustain an injury and be out of action for a huge chunk of ECW's run on TNN) were the heart and soul of ECW at the time (Dreamer, Raven and Sandman being the fathers of the promotion by that point). The loss of Taz was a heartbreaking and shocking moment for ECW fans. While the Dudleys were a controversial act and had a love-hate relationship with the ECW hardcore fans, there was no doubt that the fans also understood how important they were to ECW and what their signing to WWE (at the time WWF) meant. For Taz and The Dudleys, it meant bigger and better things; for ECW it left them hurt (but not dead at that moment) and having to deal with a lack of roster depth that was being pecked away by both WWF and WCW.
Former ROH booker Gabe Sapolsky maneuvered and guided Ring of Honor a lot during his time a lot on the premise on not making the mistakes of the past that he saw in ECW. That is in part why he always shirked (although he eventually was convinced) at the idea of doing Pay Per Views and television. These were major chances to take and they had major consequences. It's not that ROH should have never gone to television or Pay Per View. It was their chance to take, much like Danielson is taking his chance right now. However, history speaks for itself. ECW lasted only about eight years before it folded under the weight of its financial mistakes and lack of roster depth. ROH is almost at the eight year mark right now, in financial trouble and at the precipice of losing their valuable talent to the top of the line wrestling company with deep pockets. The parallels to ROH and ECW have always been there, but they are quite clear now. For whatever reasons, ROH is now dooming itself to the mistakes made by other companies in the past.
Danielson should have been locked up to a new ROH contract in the beginning of 2009. It is clear now that he was THE major piece of the ROH puzzle, that if there was still a name, THE name left for ROH to back as their marquee star, it was him. I wanted Tyler Black to be the next ROH World Champion. I think Austin Aries earned his ROH World Title run by busting his butt the last six months. However, you could make a case that Danielson should have been the first two-time ROH champion and that he should have been the center of attention for ROH this past year as they tried to make a name for themselves on HDNet. Danielson as a fighting champion was huge business in 2006 and there was no real reason to think that if they went back to it that it wouldn't have been just as lucrative.
Sure, Danielson may have wanted to challenge himself to new opportunities, but it would have been up to ROH to keep him happy and make sure he stuck around, even if not so much for his sake but for theirs. Danielson was a star, the top independent star and yet this year he was never quite treated as such. He wasn't the top of the heap; he was a part of the pack. He was THEIR star, THEIR guy and he should have been treated as such. Yet, this year, despite the main events on HDNet (which were meant to give the rub to Black more than Danielson), he really wasn't the center of attention when perhaps he should have been.
Is Danielson leaving the end of ROH? No, probably not. ROH fans have experienced the departures of countless talents from the promotion at this point. They know the story. They've been here before. It's likely that one man leaving is not enough to bring down the entire promotion. Fans will do what they have done before at these farewell shows, which is to bring their appreciation and their positive reception to the wrestler who is about to be dearly departed from the company. They will help to make these last appearances some of the more emotionally poignant moments of that man's career. They will chant "please don't go" or "please come back." Then they will watch that man bow and say his thanks, and go back through the curtain, off to the next stop on his career journey. Then they will move on to the next show.
There is the possibility that in some ironic twist, Danielson's departure will end up helping ROH. The added attention his final appearances will make could help ticket and DVD sales, maybe bring the fans back. It's no guarantee though.
The problem with ROH right now is that we don't know how many "next shows" are left. ROH right now is in more of an unstable position than it's been since probably about 2004 during the Rob Feinstein incident. Maybe ROH will be able to sustain the loss of Bryan Danielson, especially if someone can step in and bring the same kind of hard work and dedication to ROH.
If a good amount of the top ROH roster is signed, then that's a different story. If WWE manages to sign away let's say four or five big names who have been valuable and productive members of the ROH product in 2009 that is asking for trouble. That will leave a huge hole in the roster, depending on who they go after. Realistically they will try to sign the main event and upper to mid card guys: McGuinness, Black, Davey Richards, The Briscoes, Claudio Castagnoli, Chris Hero, Brent Albright and even Kevin Steen & El Generico (though they don't have the WWE look, they do have the chops and the charisma and they are a huge piece of the tag team division). ROH, WWE and even the independent wrestling fans on message boards know who really matters is ROH's upper card right now and that if many of these guys left en masse it would hurt.
These guys will get offers, and they will think about taking them. They should, even if they know that WWE is offering them these deals not so much because they earned it due to their talent (which they have if you've seen their matches and their efforts), but because they are doing it to help themselves and in the process hurt the competition, however small, all at the same time.
ROH has always looked towards the independent scene to help to replenish their roster, but as has been pointed out in the past, you can only do that so many times before you run out of those who are ready to step into that role and thrive, or even those underneath that level that deserve the chance to prove themselves. Look at the UFC Ultimate Fighter reality show. They started out the first few seasons by signing up and building on some of the best unsigned MMA talent out there. However, by the time they approached their eighth and ninth seasons, they were pulling in dozens and dozens of fighters, some of whom had very few fights and questionable skills, just to be able to create new television shows, most of which did not do as well in the ratings as earlier seasons. Many of the MMA fighters who were on the early seasons have gone to big success, even those who didn't win the competition; only a few who were on the most recent seasons have even been kept around by UFC after the show concluded.
Likewise, ROH can only dig so deep into the talent pool available to them before they run out of the talent that can really help make an impact on their bottom line. They need stars and great wrestlers right now to sell the product. They can get the guys working in PWG and CHIKARA but that just brings up the point that I could buy a PWG or a CHIKARA show and get as good and even better a wrestling show featuring that talent. In fact PWG and CHIKARA right now are generally using ROH talent like Danielson, Colt Cabana and Kenny Omega better than ROH is using them, both in angles and in the ring!
Maybe I am overreacting. After all, only Bryan Danielson has been signed. And ROH made it past losing guys like Paul London, Samoa Joe, CM Punk and Homicide. However, with all due respect to those wrestlers and what they meant to ROH and its fans, this is a different situation and a different context. Ring of Honor is at the most critical point of its current booking regime. They need to get the company back to the point where fans want to buy their DVDs again. They need to create that "must buy" feeling again and give the fans reason to build up new hype around the product. The trouble is, Bryan Danielson was and is the definition of "must buy" for a lot of ROH fans. There's a good chance WWE fans will learn the same thing soon enough. His in-ring ability and his ability to create great matches has oftentimes helped a good ROH show become great, a great ROH show become amazing and a below average ROH show become worth owning. I don't know if there is anyone on the ROH roster who can fill that kind of need right now, although maybe Davey Richards is getting close. There is going to be a gap for that kind of quality match, the one that you come to see live because you KNOW guaranteed that it's a "got-to-see-live" wrestling match. Danielson was that guy and ROH needs someone to step up and close that gap when he leaves, but they better be careful that that person also doesn't end up signed to WWE as well.
For the longest time Bryan Danielson has been known for his moniker as "the best in the world" but what that really meant was that he was the best in the independent world of pro wrestling. Now he has a chance to take that moniker and apply it to a larger "world"—World Wrestling Entertainment. He was known to be the best by those in the know on the underground and gave viewers on HDNet a small taste of it. Now the mainstream could very well be shouting that catchphrase very shortly and understanding the accuracy of the statement.
Dragon's Most Recent Major ROH on HDNet match, vs. Tyler Black
Less we not forget the Backlund comparison and the use of the Crossface Chickenwing.
Posted By: Guest#2735 (Guest) on August 24, 2009 at 04:40 PM
Great to see the CoH return. It's been missed.
Posted By: dAVE!!! (Guest) on August 24, 2009 at 04:51 PM
does anyone really get HDnet?
Posted By: 50 (Guest) on August 24, 2009 at 04:57 PM
I'm disappointed you didn't mention his 2003 match against John Cena. Sure it was only four minutes, and it was on Velocity, but I still think it's an important match just because it showed the clash of styles very clearly.
The match starts with Danielson controlling most of it with the standard indy arm wringers, and there's even a pretty cool spot where Cena forces him into a pin off a greco-roman knuckle lock, only for Danielson to bridge out and sucker him into a monkey flip. Then right in the middle of the match Cena just hits a huge clothesline, and from there takes control with high-impact power based offence. It was a perfect display of the difference in style between ROH and WWE, packed within a four minute match.
Actually, I think I'll rewrite tomorrow's column to work it in.
Posted By: Skios (Registered) on August 24, 2009 at 05:01 PM
I thought Bischoff was the only one that dirtsheet "writers" claimed to be "raiding" talent? When did WWshEep start realizing Vince does this shit too? Whatever, maybe he'll buy ROH and BURY their talent too. Then he will have successfully screwed the public out of every actual wrestling company in the U.S.!
Posted By: DHX (Registered) on August 24, 2009 at 05:03 PM
If Vince really wanted to, and he didn't have the whole "WWE Channel" idea in his head, he could buy ROH and its entire library in about two seconds. Not only would he get any ROH lock-contracts, but as with every bought promotion, THE TAPE LIBRARY. The other good news is that we wouldn't have to see any more Austin Starr's or Gassed-up Himilayans in TNA.
Posted By: Cactus (Guest) on August 24, 2009 at 05:14 PM
i have no idea who this guy is and really who watches roh?
Posted By: rick goodwin (Guest) on August 24, 2009 at 05:37 PM
Very good column. Hopefully, ROH can revitalize itself with the absence of Danielson (and any other talent that gets raided). Why not bring back some of the names that Vince released? I'm sure the fans would love to see London and Kendrik back again.
A few additional comments:
1. I find it pretty disconcerting that ROH only ran a handful of shows this summer. What was it? Two shows in Toronto in July and two TV tapings in Philly in August? That usually isn't a good sign.
2. I also find it problematic that ROH is ignoring one of their DVD revenue streams: the classic DVD's. Usually, when a DVD runs out of stock, that's it unless they decide to release a "Remastered" version, which they did for many of their early shows. But there are a number of good to great shows throughout the company's history that are inaccessible to relatively newer fans or those who hadn't bothered to get the earlier shows. For example, i'd love to be able to get Danielson winning the title at Glory By Honor IV, but it's out of stock. From everything I've heard, Good Times Great Memories is also a classic, but that show is absent from the list too (particularly annoying considering Cabana's return to ROH, which might stir interest in him again). These classic shows are a valuable revenue stream that they are ignoring. Clearly, there is demand as they've sold out, so why not provide more supply?
Posted By: Michael L (Guest) on August 24, 2009 at 05:41 PM
I'm kind of cynical right about this right now. I'm almost terrified at the thought of a Danielson/HHH match if only because I can gather one of the ulterior motives behind it happening. Best wrestler in the world? We'll see how long WWE allows that to last.
Posted By: Guest#8650 (Guest) on August 24, 2009 at 05:59 PM
I think it's a great move on WWEs part, and a smart move by Danielson.
The advantage he has over other developmental guys is that we as viewers know that he can wrestle, and like CM Punk and Matt Sydal before him hopefully the WWE sticks with him and slowly pushes him as he adjusts to their style.
Posted By: AngryTas (Guest) on August 24, 2009 at 06:36 PM
Given what a huge ROH fan you've been over the years, Ari, it was a bit sobering to read this from you. But every word of it is true. You're not overreacting. ROH has made some serious blunders this past year, and imo losing Danielson is one of the biggest yet. (Yes, I'll blame them more than WWE if he signs.) The current ROH booker has shown no talent for making new stars the way Gabe Sapolosky did. So I don't believe this is a roster gap that can be filled.
Saddest thing is, I really don't care anymore.
Posted By: nomark (Guest) on August 24, 2009 at 06:38 PM
I thought Bischoff was the only one that dirtsheet "writers" claimed to be "raiding" talent? When did WWshEep start realizing Vince does this shit too? Whatever, maybe he'll buy ROH and BURY their talent too. Then he will have successfully screwed the public out of every actual wrestling company in the U.S.!
Posted By: DHX (Registered) on August 24, 2009 at 05:03 PM
I seriously hope your not implying that by the end of it's run WcW was a wrestling show in any sense of the word,it was far more of a circus then WWF/E has ever been with the inmates running the asylum,everyone is already aware how bad that company was pissed down the drain.
Posted By: Showster (Registered) on August 24, 2009 at 06:55 PM
"i have no idea who this guy is and really who watches roh?"
That's your problem. Press fucking play at the bottom of the column and enjoy.
Posted By: D-Steak (Guest) on August 24, 2009 at 07:48 PM
Glad to see the Column of Honor return, even though it is for bittersweet reasons.
Posted By: Guest#5902 (Guest) on August 24, 2009 at 08:02 PM
Maybe Jimmy Jacobs will finally get the damn belt if he comes back! Most underrated wrestler in Ring of Honor. Or maybe Murder City Machine Guns will get fed up with TNA and go back to the independents. Another name i'd like to throw out is Chuck Taylor....HE'S AWESOME!!
Posted By: the dude (Guest) on August 24, 2009 at 08:27 PM
There's only so much you can do in a company and Bryan Danielson has just done about everything there is to do.
On another note, the DVD sales have gotten low even with Danielson wrestling on those shows, so I'd expect those numbers to be the same if Danielson stayed.
Posted By: Chris (Guest) on August 24, 2009 at 09:31 PM
Anyone who doesn't know who Bryan Danielson is NEEDS to know. The prospect of him signing with the WWE really saddens me, mostly because I know that company will more than likely just bury one of the best wrestlers in the world.
Posted By: Angelmci (Guest) on August 24, 2009 at 10:50 PM
If anyone at WWE had any brains at all they would bankroll ROH, rather than FCW as talent development. Can't they see that all these FCW stiffs can't work, can't get over, and have no "real" experience that a place like ROH gives it talent. They work TV, they work Japan and all over the country. Look at Punk and look at a fool like Tyler Reks. Do something smart and help your own company Vince, by helping a real company in need. P.S. Get rid of Pearce, the suck started with him as booker.
Posted By: Dr Phil (Guest) on August 24, 2009 at 11:55 PM
I think it's a great move on WWEs part, and a smart move by Danielson.
The advantage he has over other developmental guys is that we as viewers know that he can wrestle, and like CM Punk and Matt Sydal before him hopefully the WWE sticks with him and slowly pushes him as he adjusts to their style.
Posted By: AngryTas (Guest) on August 24, 2009 at 06:36 PM
CM Punk had the advantage of Heyman in OVW and ECW. Heyman saw a good thing and did not repackage any more than he had to.
"I thought Bischoff was the only one that dirtsheet "writers" claimed to be "raiding" talent? When did WWshEep start realizing Vince does this shit too? Whatever, maybe he'll buy ROH and BURY their talent too. Then he will have successfully screwed the public out of every actual wrestling company in the U.S.!
Posted By: DHX (Registered) on August 24, 2009 at 05:03 PM"
That is just silly, as everybody and their kid brother acknowledges that the WWE raided ECW for ideas and has signed people just to keep others from having them.
Posted By: Guest#2076 (Guest) on August 25, 2009 at 12:04 AM
How crazy would it be if the death of ROH was because they took a shot at WWE? Why the hell did some rinky dink indy piss off the WWE? ROH was all but dead anyway. Their business is in the toilet.
I also expect Terry Taylor and TNA to pick off some top ROH guys now that the WWE thinks they are worth something. Bye-bye ROH!
Posted By: Kel (Guest) on August 25, 2009 at 01:10 AM
Agreed, Showster.
But my point is that this is one of the first times I've ever heard of Vince's talent sigings called "Raids".
Usually the dirtsheet writers of the old glory days (late 90's) only referred to Bischoff as participating in "raids". McMahon has been doing this for a long time! Longer than WCW was ever around!
Posted By: DHX (Guest) on August 25, 2009 at 01:55 AM
CM Punk had the advantage of Heyman in OVW and ECW. Heyman saw a good thing and did not repackage any more than he had to.
Posted By: Guest#2076 (Guest) on August 25, 2009 at 12:04 AM
-----
You seem to be forgetting that Punk was repackaged after Heyman was fired. His style has evolved quite a bit since the times he was squashing Justin Credible with the Anaconda Vice...
Posted By: AngryTas (Guest) on August 25, 2009 at 03:10 AM
to the one who said that WWE should bankroll ROH...I agree. Granted a few of the recent FCW comeups have been decent/good..the ins and outs of guys like Brad Attitude, Gavin Spears, etc(not to say any of them were bad, I got to meet Shawn Spears at a recent show I worked, he was a nice guy and pretty good in the ring) show that FCW may not be up to the task or that WWE just can't invest more than a month in a talent if they don't click..I mean c'mon how long were fans chanting Die Rocky Die before they turned Rocky Maivia into "The Rock" and one of the best heels of the late 90s
The best thing Danielson has going for him is look who just came back to RAW last week...HBK..his trainer/teacher for his beginning years.
Having HBK and subsequently the possibility HBK's longtime associate Trips in the ear of Vince, Danielson could show up in FCW for as little as a month or two and then be called up
Who knows..maybe by Summerfest(XD) 2012, We'll see CM Punk vs Brian Danielson for the World Title
Posted By: shaun_callen (Guest) on August 25, 2009 at 01:31 PM
Great column Ari and you make several good points. Danielson leaving for the fed to me is in context to where ROH is right now a huge loss, but at the same time with booking being what it is, ROH could weather this storm if they start doing things right.
They don't have any shows until Sept so with those Sept shows. Stack them to the moon. Make them must buys. Hell go the ROH:Reborn route if they have to, but make the customer care again with booking strong matches with obvious talent that can pull it off in matches that will make fans care again.
We've all read and heard about the tempered in ring style that Pearce has wanted to place upon the talent, get rid of that and bring back the puro-esque style that made ROH what it is. The Kings Road style popularized by AJPW in the late 90s is the style that made ROH gain so much ground with the fans in the early 2000s. Straight from Gabe and many ROH pundits, ROH was the American puro promotion for the puro fans in the US but wanted an American promotion to do it. ROH was that. That was the "ROH" style just like PWG and CHIKARA both have their distinct style of wrestling, ROH was the Kings Road (not to be confused with what some call Strong Style)/Puro style and they need that again. Maybe not all over the card, but definitely a hampering of what was the ROH style has made a lot of fans turn away from the product as it is now deemed watered down for the sake of main stream appeal.
A lot of good could also come of this IMO in that ROH needed a reason to create new stars just as WWE has. This is that time. So we could see that silver lining in the dark cloud that is this loss and possibly see a new future for ROH.
Thanks for the great read man.
Posted By: spawnsyxx9 (Registered) on August 25, 2009 at 04:11 PM
ROH killed themselves dead going up against the flagship of the 'E. Vince is just gonna throw money at anybody there worth a damn now that they tried to make themselves direst competition and kill the company like he did so many others 25 years ago. Nitro could pull the head to head thing off because of Ted Turners checkbook, ROH not so much.
Posted By: RIP ROH (Guest) on August 25, 2009 at 08:02 PM
Nice to see a return of CoH. Hopefully, you can work it into your future schedule as I've always enjoyed the read.
Posted By: Pete (Guest) on August 26, 2009 at 10:29 AM
I get HDNet, and have to admit, moving it to Mondays at 8 is brilliant. I typically watch Raw live, and this makes it easier to turn in a little earlier to catch ROH instead of trying to remember when its on Saturday.
Posted By: Deathpool (Guest) on August 26, 2009 at 11:24 AM
"I thought Bischoff was the only one that dirtsheet "writers" claimed to be "raiding" talent? When did WWshEep start realizing Vince does this shit too? Whatever, maybe he'll buy ROH and BURY their talent too. Then he will have successfully screwed the public out of every actual wrestling company in the U.S.!
Posted By: DHX (Registered) on August 24, 2009 at 05:03 PM"
The big difference being that Vince put Heyman on the payroll, because he knew ECW had become a worthwhile place to find talent.
Compared to Bischoff, who nearly had Mike Awesome as ECW Champion come out and throw his belt into the trash or whatever.
Posted By: Deathpool (Guest) on August 26, 2009 at 11:28 AM
"I wanted Tyler Black to be the next ROH World Champion"
You and every other 14 year old, Tyler is good, but he lacks "IT".
Posted By: Mr Poon (Guest) on August 26, 2009 at 12:56 PM
Tyler has it and every other tool to make it big in the pro-wrestling. I see more potential in him being a future world champion in the WWE than anyone else, even Aries and McGuinness.
Posted By: seaneb14 (Guest) on August 26, 2009 at 03:52 PM
I dont think shawn michaels would allow danielson to be "buried" by triple h because he trained him
right?
Posted By: anonymous (Guest) on October 12, 2009 at 08:42 PM
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