That Was Then, Is This Too? 09.08.09: A Tale of Two Champions

Posted by Jasper Gerretsen on 09.08.2009

With WWE signing its second former ROH champion in as many weeks, we revisit the subject of Bryan Danielson as we compare his title run to that of Nigel McGuinness.

Welcome to yet another instalment of That Was Then, Is This Too?, the column that looks for parallel lines in all the right places. As usual, we have comments!

Lita got one of the worst sendoffs ever. I`m not even a fan of hers and it sucked.

Posted By: FUZEY (Guest) on September 01, 2009 at 03:12 PM

I can kind of understand why they did it, considering that Lita was a heel at the time, but I agree that she really didn't deserve this treatment after years of hard work.

Lita's band sucks to.....I'm a huge Lita fan and can't make myself like her music. Jericho's band is ok. I hope Hardy's band is better. Got a feeling that I will be let down.

Posted By: Guest fool (Guest) on September 01, 2009 at 04:56 PM

I haven't heard anything from the Luchagors, but I doubt it can be worse than the snippets of Jeff Hardy's music I've heard.

how danielson comes in will be a big indicator in how he fares. WWE has shown that they will workout a licensing agreement and let someone keep their real name if they think they are going to be a star (ie Cena, Orton etc etc) so if his name is changed it shows the E doesnt really believe in him.

Posted By: Jersey (Guest) on September 01, 2009 at 05:09 PM

As I said before, Punk keeping his name was basically a fluke, and name changes are standard procedure. It has nothing to do with how much faith they have in a wrestler's ability to succeed and everything to do with the time and money they invest in that wrestler.

Nice article, you draw the natural comparisons between Jericho and Hardy which works for me.
I have no doubt that if Jeff chose to come back, he could generate enough interest to main-event mania and it would be a good seller for the wwe if executed well.
My thought is on Nigel McGuinness however. Whenever I see him mentioned with wwe the name that always springs to mind as a caution is Mike Awesome. Nigel is a far better promo, and quite a bit more adaptable in his work. Like Awesome though, he has a structure to his matches that depends on him being seen as a physical force and by wwe standards he isn't.
Nigel is biggish for the indys.He works a that match well, whether it is high-impact or accumulation of moves leading to submission. In wwe, even though the wwe has got smaller, he is pretty much average sized.
Compared to a guy like Swagger(who is big, but not monster sized) for example, Nigel is pretty small.(Swagger has a good 4" and 30lbs of muscle on Nigel)
I reckon Nigel would do decent in the wwe, because of his promo and storytelling but I think he would have to amp up the intensity and submission skills and change styles a fair bit.Still, mid-card in the wwe would be an excellent achievement if it happened, something we often neglect.
Danielson, I think the wwe would have to misuse for him not to be at least a good mid-carder, after that it depends on whether they use his strengths with ring-work, facial expression, insensity and book him in angles that lead to in-ring work or focus on his negatives as a storyline character, look. size etc.

Posted By: Guest#7117 (Guest) on September 01, 2009 at 06:54 PM

I think Nigel has a huge advantage of not wrestling purely like a big man, like Mike Awesome did. While he has a lot of high-impact moves in his playbook, he isn't as reliant on them.

i also like matt hardy better. jeff was just a spot monkey. the fact that he and john cena had the wwe title has tarnished it for years

Posted By: rick goodwin (Guest) on September 01, 2009 at 08:18 PM

Cena bashing? Did I wake up in 2006? Also, I think it's very unfair to call Jeff a spot monkey. While he certainly relies more on the high spots than his big brother, he still managed to get a very strong emotional connection to the crowd, which made him a great babyface champion.

With that out of the way, it's time to drop the banner on this column!


That Was Then, Is This Too? - A Tale of Two Champions

First of all, I'd like to start off by apologizing for the repetition. I really didn't want to repeat myself here, but with the news of Nigel McGuinness signing a WWE contract I really had no choice here.

With the signing of Nigel McGuinness, WWE has signed its second ex-ROH champion in as many weeks. They now have five former ROH champions (Low-Ki, CM Punk, James Gibson, Bryan Danielson and Nigel McGuinness), but of these five McGuinness and Danielson have spent the longest time as the face of the company, both holding the title for over a year.

Nigel held the title for 545 days, becoming the first ROH wrestler to hold the title for a full calendar year. After beating Japanese behemoth Takeshi Morishima at the Ring of Honor Undeniable pay-per-view, he spent most of 2007 as a babyface. He turned heel before the show even aired however, as a reaction to criticism from the fans who had problems with the fact that he was supposedly injury-prone, and that he used far too many lariats in his matches. His two-part interview on the ROH video wire to cement his heel turn was absolutely brilliant, and it established his character for the entire rest of his championship run. He even began to wear the championship belt backwards, to give anyone coming for his belt a chance to kiss his ass as they tried.

For years it had seemed only a matter of time before McGuinness captured the ROH world championship. He made his debut for the company in 2003 against Chet Jablonski, but never really had any significant success. All that changed however, when he started feuding with Colt Cabana after their failed bid for the ROH world tag team championship. McGuinness became the number one contender for the ROH pure championship, a secondary singles title that was defined by its rules (three rope breaks, closed-fist punches cost a rope-break, 20 count on the floor). He pinned former ROH world champion Samoa Joe with his Tower of London finisher, starting his run as longest reigning ROH pure champion in the history of the company.

Nigel ended up hanging on to the title for almost a full year, constantly taking advantage of the unique rules that came with the belt by beating his opponents by countout, completely demolishing his opponents on the floor, then stepping back into the ring at the count of 19. While most of the company was focused on staving off the Combat Zone Wrestling invasion, McGuinness seemed content to focus on keeping his title. It was during this time that Nigel developed a rivalry with the company's other singles champion, ROH world champion Bryan Danielson.

It was a classic story of the secondary champion versus the world champion, and ROH booked it perfectly. They had several matches during the first half of 2006, with McGuinness beating Danielson by countout during their first title unification match and Danielson beating McGuinness twice when only the ROH world title was on the line. The rivalry would reach its peak in Nigel's home country, during the company's first tour abroad. At ROH Unified the two met once more in a title unification match and this time Danielson was successful by making Nigel pass out with his MMA elbows. The two would have a rematch, but the 2-out-of-3 falls title match went to a 60 minute time limit draw.

The two would move away from each other for a while, with Danielson's focus staying on the ROH world title while McGuinness spent most of the rest of the year feuding with Jimmy Rave. When Japanese behemoth Takeshi Morishima upset ROH champion Homicide, Nigel's focus shifted back to capturing the ROH world title. During his renewed efforts to capture the title he also started feuding with Bryan Danielson again, and the two met in a tag match during the first ROH pay-per-view, Respect is Earned. This time around their feud was more of a sporting rivalry, as both men were babyfaces at the time. They would actually team up a few times during this run, first against Takeshi Morishima and Naomichi Marafuji and then against The Briscoe Brothers in an unsuccessful bid for the ROH world tag team championship.

Nigel's world championship run seemed inevitable, but first he had to put Bryan Danielson behind him. He finally got his big win over his rival at ROH Driven in what many consider their best match. After his failed title shots at Fighting Spirit and Live in Tokyo, Nigel finally beat the monster from the orient in an incredibly hard-hitting match at the appropriately titled Undeniable pay-per-view.

His run with the ROH title didn't truly gain momentum until after his heel turn. His only major feud as a babyface champion was against Chris Hero, who he defeated in a cage match thanks to failed interference from Bobby Dempsey. As a heel however he had an excellent run, feuding with Bryan Danielson, Tyler Black, Jerry Lynn and Austin Aries, among others. Unlike many heels in ROH before him he managed to consistently get the fans to boo him, something that had been a problem in the past. He did this by simply crapping on everything and everyone the fans loved. For months they were rabid for somebody, anybody to take the belt away from McGuinness, but he successfully turned away all challengers until he finally lost the belt to Jerry Lynn, almost a year and a half later.

That Was Then...

It was about two years earlier that another ROH mainstay, and one of the company's founding fathers, finally realized his own destiny by capturing the ROH world championship from once-and-future WWE superstar James Gibson. Even though Danielson had been with the company from day one and had always been considered one of the company's top stars, he had never held any ROH gold. It was frustration with this situation that led him to take time off for kayfabe reasons, and at the first show back, the annual Glory by Honor supercard, he went straight for the gold, making Gibson submit to the crossface chickenwing to finally win the ROH world title. Glory by Honor IV was the first show where Danielson used The Final Countdown as his entrance theme, and over the next few weeks he would continue to add more and more new mannerisms to his repertoire, the most notable one being the "I have 'till five, ref" taunt. With the precious ROH world title now firmly in his grasp, Danielson was determined to hang on. Over the next few weeks he would grow more and more vicious, and more and more lax with the rules.

The first seeds of Danielson's full heel turn were sown early in 2006, when a war of words between Danielson and CZW wrestler Chris Hero led to a title match between the two at Hell Freezes Over. During the next few weeks Chris Hero, along with fellow CZW wrestler Necro Butcher, would repeatedly harass ROH wrestlers at ROH shows, only to end up getting thrown out by ROH security. The all-out war between the two companies would be declared at the Arena Warfare event, where BJ Whitmer's match with Necro Butcher was declared a no contest after interference from Super Dragon. After the show Whitmer called out the CZW wrestlers in attendance, and a huge brawl between wrestlers from the two companies broke out.

During ROH's ongoing war with CZW, Danielson personally led the charge, invading several CZW shows and defending the ROH title against CZW wrestlers like Sonjay Dutt. The feud between the two companies was to be settled at the annual Death Before Dishonor show, where a team of ROH wrestlers took on a team of CZW wrestlers in the CZW Cage of Death. The ROH team was coached by wargames specialist JJ Dillon, and actually won the coin toss. After Samoa Joe and Claudio Castagnoli started out, they were joined by BJ Whitmer, Chris Hero, and then Bryan Danielson. However, in one of the most brutal moments of betrayal in ROH history, Danielson demolished Joe's knee before walking out on his team, essentially deciding that his title belt is more important to him than the company he represents.

Despite now being down five to three, the ROH team still managed to pull out the victory thanks to Homicide, who had been on the fence for weeks about where his loyalties lay. He wanted to represent his company, but at the same time he hated ROH commissioner Jim Cornette. Still, the man came through for his company and in response Cornette granted him three wishes. The first two, a rematch with old rival Steve Corino and a future world title shot, were easily granted, but the reinstatement of Low-Ki was too much to ask and Cornette turned heel on Homicide, beating him down with the help of Adam Pearce.

While Homicide continued to feud with Cornette, Pearce and the Briscoe brothers, even teaming up with former rival Samoa Joe in the process, Danielson continued to defend his world title. He had a brief rivalry with Pro Wrestling NOAH star KENTA, he finally managed to put Samoa Joe behind him once and for all, and of course he had repeated success against ROH pure champion Nigel McGuinness. The constant title defenses were beginning to wear on Danielson however, as he continued to suffer injuries. A separated shoulder and torn tendons forced him to take time off to heal, but even after several weeks off he continued to be plagued by these injuries. He finally lost the ROH world title to Homicide at Final Battle 2006, in an emotional match for which the build started all the way back in January of 2006.

...Is This Too?

There's no denying that there are many similarities between Bryan Danielson's and Nigel McGuinness' championship runs. They were both dominant champions, holding the belt for well over a year, with 2006 being the year of Danielson and 2008 being the year of McGuinness. They were both strong heel champions, always focussed on doing anything they could to hold onto their belt. It was this kind of dedication to their strap that elevated the ROH world championship to the status of most important independent wrestling championship during the reign of Samoa Joe, and both Danielson and McGuinness continued that tradition.

However, there are also many differences between the way the two title reigns were booked, starting with the way they won their titles. Where Danielson seemingly simply came in and beat the champion with almost no significant build to speak of, Nigel's path to the title was almost two years long, first unsuccessfully feuding with Bryan Danielson and then finally capturing the belt from Takeshi Morishima, arguably the only truly dominant monster heel in ROH history. And then there were their respective heel turns. While Danielson's turn was built up slowly over the course of several months, Nigel turned on the fans almost overnight. While I personally prefer the slow build of the Danielson heel turn, turning Nigel heel so suddenly was pretty much a necessary evil as he failed to gain traction as a babyface champion.

It also seemed that Danielson had the stronger feuds, both as a babyface and a heel. Of course he had the advantage of leading the entire company against the evil CZW invaders, but he also had an excellent feud with fellow ROH legend Samoa Joe, and of course pure champion Nigel McGuinness. While Nigel had some good feuds of his own, mainly against Chris Hero and Sweet 'n Sour Incorporated as a face and Tyler Black and Jerry Lynn as a heel, I'm afraid I don't think any of them were as strong as Danielson's major programs. I think this is mainly because Danielson was booked as a fighting champion, while Nigel constantly seemed to try to weasel out of matches.

The way both men lost their titles however, is eerily similar. Both men had long, dominant reigns as champion, fighting through several severe injuries to keep representing the company they loved. Both men however, were finally forced to drop the title when they simply couldn't keep up the pace anymore. Danielson suffered from a separated shoulder and torn tendons when he dropped the title to Homicide, and McGuinness dropped the title to Jerry Lynn after tearing both his biceps. Granted, McGuinness' loss to Lynn was far more sudden than Danielson's loss to Homicide, but it still made sense from a storyline perspective, as "Geritol Lynn" finally got his revenge by hitting Nigel where it hurt the most: right in the title belt.

In the end, they were both strong representatives of a great wrestling company, a company that's better for having these men as their top star for over a year. They've both shown themselves to easily be among the best independent wrestlers of the world, and their feud deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk. Their score in ROH is currently tied, with both men having three wins a piece and two draws. While it would be great to see one final match between the two, I'm more than happy with their final matches that are currently announced. Last minute update: It was just announced that they will be going at it one last time on September 26th. Time will tell if their feud will carry over into WWE, but if it does we can only hope it will be as truly epic as it was in ROH.