High Road/Low Road 09.18.09: Dolph Ziggler
Posted by Chad Nevett on 09.18.2009
Dolph Ziggler, wrestler of the future. Do you agree or disagree? Hit the link and let us know. Plus, all the Breaking Point feedback you could ever want. What are you waiting for? Come on in!
Welcome back to the High Road/Low Road!
A brief explanation of the column: Sat takes the High Road (positive view) on angles, gimmicks, and other wrestling related "stuff" while Uncletrunx takes the Low Road (negative view).
Results for Breaking Point: Submission Based PPV:
High Road: 21%
Low Road: 74%
Both Roads: 05%
Dolph Ziggler
High Road:
I remember reading a few months back that Vince McMahon really liked Dolph Ziggler's intensity. Two things come to mind when I read this. The first is that if Vince McMahon is a fan of his, then if he is able to stay healthy then I think big things should be expected from him. The second thing that comes to mind is that he is doing something that nobody else is doing and that is showing some intensity in the ring. You would think that more people would be doing this, but I guess that is not the case.
Low Road:
This is a Low Road on the rest of the roster rather than a High Road for him. Surely some intensity is the bare minimum, unless the gimmick calls for the character to act in a different way? If his intensity is a rare thing, then WWE is in trouble. As for McMahon being behind Ziggler, you'll notice that despite the feud he had with Rey Mysterio, Ziggler was not the man they put the title on.
High Road:
While you can make an argument that he should improve on his mat wrestling ability, the one thing that can not be questioned is the fact that he does a great job in his selling. Just look at any of his matches and you cannot deny that he does a great job in making his opponent look good.
Low Road:
He does, but improving on the wrestling side would be of far more benefit for a heel than selling well, although clearly both are important. Selling well would be more of a factor if he were a face rather than a heel. As it is, I feel that he needs more attention to the wrestling side if he is to move up the card.
High Road:
A good finishing maneuver is underrated, but very valuable to a wrestler's success. Dolph Ziggler has a great finishing maneuver because it can be hit from anywhere. My only complaint with the finishing maneuver is the fact that it does not have a name, but I would prefer they come with a good name instead of just coming up with a name.
Low Road:
I like a finisher which can be hit from anywhere, but the fact that it has no name does not suggest that WWE are going to push it as a move to be feared. I remember reading an interview with Randy Orton where he was given a couple of hours to think of a name for his finish; while it is not the best name in the world, it has been established as a move which will end a match; Ziggler's nameless finish does not have the same aura in my opinion, nor will it until it gets some attention including a name.
High Road:
Dolph Ziggler has beaten the Great Khali three times in a row and I think that is huge for his career. Dolph has beaten the Great Khali by countout, disqualification, and pinfall (with help from Kane). The list is very short of people who have beaten the Great Khali and Dolph Ziggler is one of those guys.
Low Road:
None of those wins can be seen as decisive. DQ and count out wins are often regarded as cheap wins, which keep the loser reasonably strong, and for his pinfall win he had outside interference. Contrast this with the feud he had with Rey Mysterio, where Rey beat him decisively and all of a sudden the picture is not quite so rosy for Ziggler.
High Road:
Dolph Ziggler has proven a lot of people wrong. One of the things that you always hear is that it is impossible for somebody to overcome a bad gimmick. Well, I would say that he has overcome three bad gimmicks. First, he was Kerwin White's caddy. Then, he was a part of the Spirit Squad, which was universally hated. Then, he was stuck with that awful "Hi, I'm Dolph Ziggler" thing. While he still does that from time to time, he has developed beyond that. I think that Dolph Ziggler has shown that it is possible to overcome bad gimmicks.
Low Road:
It is possible to overcome them, but they don't help. He needs to ditch "Hi, I'm Dolph Ziggler" as quickly as possible, in my view. Sticking him with Maria is also not helping in this regard; if he's to be taken seriously, he needs to get past such things and have more involvement in the hunt for titles. He may not be World Title material yet but there's no reason why he shouldn't hold the US title or be part of a title winning tag team.
High Road:
I like Dolph Ziggler's chance of moving up on SmackDown because there are very few heels right now. The main four that come to mind are CM Punk, Edge, Chris Jericho, and Kane. Edge is hurt right now, so that leaves three. I think that with only three guys ahead of him, Dolph Ziggler is in a good spot right now. Add the fact that Kane has switched from heel to face and back again so many times, I would say that Dolph Ziggler is probably third on the list.
Low Road:
It would be a good spot except that unfortunately for him Batista has just landed on Smackdown. Batista will need an opponent to get him over as the man to be feared, which he is likely to do with a series of decisive wins. I can't see WWE sacrificing any of the other heels on that list to Batista, so I fully expect Ziggler to be the sacrificial lamb who is used to push Batista upwards and towards the blue brand belt.
High Road:
One of the things that needed to change for Dolph Ziggler was he needed to get some new entrance music. The first theme that he had was generic and you felt that the WWE did not put in a lot of effort when they decided on a theme for him. His new theme works perfectly for his character. The main thing that we hear in his new theme is "I am Perfection". This new theme works perfectly for Dolph Ziggler.
Low Road:
I am perfection. Sadly, whenever I hear that I think of a certain 80s / 90s wrestler and in that inevitable comparison, Ziggler comes out as the lesser of the two. In time he may live up to such a comparison but at the moment, I don't think such a comparison is doing him any favours at all.
High Road:
Dolph Ziggler's partnership with Maria has a lot of potential. First, Maria has basically been refereeing a few matches and that is not a good use for her. I think that this has the potential to be interesting because Maria has always been liked by the fans, but it seems like she is infatuated by Dolph Ziggler. I definitely am interested in seeing where this is going.
Low Road:
As I mentioned above, I consider a storyline with Maria to be counterproductive to him at this time. He's been in the US title hunt and needs to have his focus there. Having a non wrestling diva storyline is not going to help him in my view.
Simply write "High Road", "Low Road", or "Both Roads" in the comment section.
E-Mails:
These are all of the e-mails that we received this week. We do not respond to the actual e-mail, but the reply to your e-mail will be below.
Jake Corbet Writes:
I mean really, what's the point? With HiTC coming next, you know this isn't going to be the feud ender it should be, which is going to devalue submission matches as a whole. Submission matches are usually a lot slower than say, a ladder match .. and to fill an entire PPV full of them, is going to put off a lot of people that don't like slow moving matches. It's one thing to put one submission match in with a bunch of other things .. but to fill a card with it? That's too much. It's also obvious before it even happens, that with 4 people you can't see actually tapping .. someone is just going to get knocked out (Cena getting punted unconscious, or maybe .. oh .. I don't know .. thrown through a spotlight? Oh wait ..)
There are way too many ways around submission matches to have it end without someone actually submitting, or saying I Quit. Falls Count Anywhere usually means some form of No DQ .. so pretty much anyone can be waiting in the wings on that one. I don't know .. I see where they're trying to make their PPV's special by branding them, but I think they'd do better by cutting one or two out entirely, instead of really reaching and making more gimmick PPV's that aren't going to work. Cut back and give an extra week or two of buildup for the rest of them. It's getting kind of old for the Monday after a PPV to "only be 4 weeks away from (insert next lame PPV gimmick idea here)".
Sat: I think that the WWE is going to realize that this a pay per view like this takes a lot of time to prepare for and they will abandon it pretty soon.
Uncletrunx: I can't see there being a second, to be honest.
Rob Writes:
Not a lot of hope for this PPV. The match I wanted to see, Morrison vs. Ziggler got pulled, I can't see them coming up with anything but a bizarre ending to Punk vs. undertaker in order to continue their feud. Orton-Cena, been there done that, am really, really, really tired of seeing it. Same with DX vs. Legacy. Another yawner. Does anyone really believe that Michaels or HHH will tap out?
Sat: Like you, I was not expecting Legacy to win, but low and behold, we were both wrong.
Uncletrunx: To be fair, they made the finish look monstrous. It was one of the highlights for me.
Comments:
Below are the comments for last week's columns and our responses. Every comment will not be included because it makes our lives a lot easier.
AGM Writes:
Nice article, guys.
I'm taking low road. This just seems too contrived for my liking. Let's see. Cena has a submission finisher. Orton doesn't. Taker has an established one, Punk (on WWE TV) doesn't. Regal does, Christian doesn't. HBK does, Legacy doesn't. This concept would only work if each competitor in the match had an established/over submission move.
Side note, I've already WM13 booked the Punk/Taker match. And it involves run-ins from Danielson and McGuinness to beat Taker unconscious until Punk can beat him. Thus forming an ROH stable IN WWE.
Guy can dream, right?
Sat: I think the WWE knew that some guys did not have a submission that is why we only see a few matches that are submission based. While it would be nice to see those guys pushed right on their arrival, I think that would be a little threatening to some of the established guys.
Uncletrunx: Thanks for the compliment, AGM. J
I agree that taking a bit longer to establish a submission finisher for some of the other wrestlers in the major matches would have helped; I believe that it would benefit most if not all wrestlers to have a decent submission finisher for such occasions.
Bobby C Writes:
Low Road.
If the WWE was doing 6 PPV/year vs. 14 PPV/year - then this might be a high road. The reason is that not every wrestler has a defined submission manuever. Let's look at the two championship matches and the submission history for each participant
Punk - broke out the Anaconda Vice only in the past 2 weeks. For the majority of WWE fans, they have no idea if this will be effective because he's rarely used it. Would have been nice to see that hold used a few more times on other opponents to convince me about that hold (3 weeks between PPV is not enough time to introduce a hold like this).
Taker - He has the Gogoplata - so he's OK.
Orton - it's nice they changed this to an I Quit match since I don't think Orton has an established submission hold. A few extra weeks for him to introduce this would have been nice.
Cena - STF - so he's all set.
And what about some of the other competitors. Morrison, Ziggler, MVP, HHH, DiBiase, Rhodes - I don't recall them having a specific "go to" submission hold.
Jericho (Walls of himself), Henry (bear hug), Big Show (camel clutch) and HBK (sharpshooter) all have known submission holds. But their problem is that their each involved in tag team matches. As we know - tag team submission holds are next to impossible to win with because their partner can break them up rather easily.
So really - going into the event, I can only "believe" that Cena and Taker have finishing moves that can win a match. What the WWE needed to do was to build up more submission holds for all of this PPV's participants - and they needed to have some foresight and started this process 2-3 months ago - not 2-3 weeks ago.
Sat: I'll agree that they should have started introducing submission holds a lot earlier. Punk only recently started using the vice, when he should have been using it way before.
Uncletrunx: As I said above, having a submission hold for each wrestler as a part of their standard moveset and using it regularly would be of benefit in the longer term.
The Gold Standard Writes:
Low Road only cause its still the same people in high profile matches. Now if there were more submissionists or people who use submissions regularly in the high profile matches then it would make sense.Really out of all the matches only people who use submissions are Punk,Taker, Cena, Y2J and Regal.Maybe if Masters and other people who use submissions were competing it make more sense. Now if just if Legacy beats DX by DiBiase making HBK give up to the Million Dollar Dream then everything I'm saying right now is irrelevant.
Sat: While DiBiase did make Shawn tap out, it did take two submissions. That does ruin it a bit for me.
Uncletrunx: Submissionists is my word of week.
M:-X Writes:
Gotta say high road this time... stuff like "I Quit" is different enough from a typical submission match to make it interesting. If you remember Flair/Foley you can "quit" over things having nothing to do with how strong/weak you are. The other matches all depend on the participants and the moves used. If nothing else, maybe this ppv will finally get HHH to add a new move to his arsenal (and I'm actually a fan of the guy...)
Sat: Well, HHH did bust out the crippler crossface.
Uncletrunx: In this case, the I quit rule wasn't used anywhere near as creatively, which was a shame.
Phil Writes:
High Road. I think the PPV will be good even with Ziggler v Morrison being taken off.Taker v punk should be right up the IWC alley,and RKO v Cena could be the WM13 remake with Super Cena passing out to an Orton submission.
Sat: I actually like what Cena and Orton did. I would have had no problems with a WM13 remake though.
Uncletrunx: I wouldn't have minded a Mania 13 revisit half as much as what they actually did at the end of Punk vs Taker. Have we not seen that ending used enough now?
The Great Captain Smooth Writes:
Both roads. While it isn't the most needed gimmick for a PPV, it is something different. Also, it's not a sure thing that Cena or Orton will will say, "I quit." from a submission hold. Remember JBL screaming it in an I Quit match against Cena? To me, that is part of the fun, trying to think of what the WWE will come up with.
Sat: I was expecting something like this from Orton, but the WWE went in a different direction, which was very nice to see.
Uncletrunx: I don't think it was the best way of using the gimmick, but each to their own.
Guest#0766 Writes:
Low Road.
I just can't forget that awful Cena/Show submission match from earlier this year. If that's the quality we can hope to expect then I say no thanks.
Sat: Damn you! I had forgotten about that match and you had to bring it to the surface.
Uncletrunx: Moving on…
David Writes:
I am taking the Low Road. Does anyone honestly believe for one second that John Cena, the Undertaker, Triple H, or Shawn Michaels would say "I Quit" or Submit ever on this pay per view? That is where my fault is with this event. The matches are just not believable and too easy to predict.
Sat: I have to give the WWE credit for doing something unpredictable because we all thought that Legacy was going to tap.
Uncletrunx: Shawn was utterly demolished for the submission, which was a good end to that match. Cena / Orton led to more SuperCena, which was dull. Punk vs Undertaker was a travesty. That's one out of three.
JWestmoreland Writes:
Low Road
Really WWE? that's the best you could come up with? An all submission ppv(for the main events anyway) Im with Uncletrux here, either all the faces will win, or we are going to see some screwy finishes(like the one from WM13....or maybe Royal Rumble 1999!) I love how all the feds think we have short term memories.
Sat: I think people are expecting the WWE to do the predictable, but they have not been doing that.
Uncletrunx: Sadly, I missed the most obvious of all. A submission based PPV in Montreal. How did I not guess what would happen?
Guest#0940 Writes:
Low road. WWE protect their really big names and have conditioned people to think that submitting is weak.
Not everyone has an established submission finisher and the positioning of a submission match with the Undertaker at the start of a feud is horrible.
Sat: I'll agree that it seems like a bad idea, but let's see how it plays out.
Uncletrunx: Establishing a submission for each wrestler might help in this regard. The match with Undertaker ended up being horrible for an entirely different reason.
JLAJRC Writes:
Uncletrunx said:
Forcing wrestlers who are not submission wrestlers to wrestle in that way does not play to their strengths. While Undertaker vs Punk could be intriguing, as Punk tries to make ‘Taker give up while ‘Taker works MMA style may be interesting (although I prefer Monstertaker to MMAtaker) but Cena vs Orton in a submission match seems to be forcing a square peg into a round hole.
I disagree. I think this forces wrestlers/bookers to be creative because they have to come up with maneuvers and finishes that they rarely use, which would be a positive.
But I gotta go with Both Roads because I'd rather they'd kept Cyber Sunday. It may have been a gimmicky throwaway PPV, but they were fun PPV's at least.
Sat: I expect Orton/Cena to be good because it was I Quit. I did not expect it to be as good as it was though.
Uncletrunx: I agree with the comment about Cyber Sunday. I enjoyed that.
Your reasons for taking the High Road, Low Road, or Both Roads and suggestions for future High Road/Low Road are welcome at satuncletrunx@gmail.com or in the comment section. Your reply will be included in next week's column.
Both Roads more so High depending on the booking.I think eventually Dolph Ziggler will just go by Dolph like Carlito did when he was called Carlito Carribean Cool.With a doubt I know he will win the IC Title,Tag and maybe even ECW Title if he ever goes their but I'm worried he might be another Mr. Perfect.High Profile matches but never winning the big belt.A lot of mid carders have hit that.I guess its too early to tell right now but I think hes going to be part of future of rising stars.
Posted By: The Gold Standard (Guest) on September 18, 2009 at 12:32 PM
If "Hi, I'm Dolph Ziggler" blossomed into his current persona, then it was not a bad gimmick that he "overcame." THAT, my friend, was a classic example of the IWC judging a character prematurely. After 2-3 weeks of introducing himself, about 9/10 of the internet was SO SURE that they understood where it was going and that it would flop. (Just like that John Cena kid's rapper gimmick .... d'OH!) Ziggler then moved beyond the simple intros and started wrestling and people took notice of his undeniable ability. His character has grown, but is NOT disconnected from "Hi, I'm Dolph Ziggler." Developed, NOT disconnected, or, as you put it, "overcome." For all anybody on the internet knows, this was the plan all along. (But it sure makes us sound smarter if we PRETEND that we were right and Nick Nemeth "overcame" the bad gimmick handed to him.) That's probably one of the reasons McMahon thinks the internet is a self-serving joke full of people talking without knowing. (Because he's mostly correct.) Rather then EVER giving WWE the benefit of the doubt (as I am in this case), the majority of the internet assumes the worst.
You'll have to try harder to excuse the internet's perpetual rush to premature judgement next time.
Posted By: MDK (Guest) on September 18, 2009 at 12:48 PM
Wrestler of the future?
High road.
Ziggler has the look, charisma, and athleticism to be a solid upper midcard wrestler for the next 5 years. If he was bigger, more technically sound, or did high risk moves, I'd say he would have a better shot at becoming a main event talent.
I would also like to see him use a different finisher. Something like the old Rocker Dropper would fit well. Ziggler could extend his hand for a supposed handshake, twist his opponent's arm, kick him in the gut, and then drop him straight down.
Posted By: guest wrong (Guest) on September 18, 2009 at 02:00 PM
About Punk's Anaconda Vice in WWE. HELLO? He used it in ECW until the GTS came along in 2007/8.
Posted By: Guest#0207 (Guest) on September 18, 2009 at 02:40 PM
He looks like a mint Sid Vicious. Same hair, same vest, same trunks.
Hopefully not same leg.
Posted By: Berringer (Guest) on September 18, 2009 at 02:46 PM
Wrestler of the future?
High road.
Ziggler has the look, charisma, and athleticism to be a solid upper midcard wrestler for the next 5 years. If he was bigger, more technically sound, or did high risk moves, I'd say he would have a better shot at becoming a main event talent.
I would also like to see him use a different finisher. Something like the old Rocker Dropper would fit well. Ziggler could extend his hand for a supposed handshake, twist his opponent's arm, kick him in the gut, and then drop him straight down.
Posted By: guest wrong (Guest) on September 18, 2009 at 02:00 PM
I agree the I mean the Zig Zag is a cool finisher but I dont see that as being something a main eventer would use or hell lose to.I still dont know why Benji doesnt use the T-Bone as finisher than that leaping flatliner
Posted By: IC CHamp (Guest) on September 18, 2009 at 03:02 PM
High Road
Posted By: Guest#5042 (Guest) on September 18, 2009 at 03:14 PM
High road, he is aperfect guy to feud with Morrison and really could be huge. The WWE are builinding him up well, there making him chase the title instead of just giving it to him. His already had several good matches and the Morrison-Ziggler match should be fantastic. There is no need to rush him into getting belts but I would like to see him get an IC reign and possibly a Tag team one as well.
Posted By: Guest#5652 (Guest) on September 18, 2009 at 03:59 PM
I gotta go with High Road as he has a good gimmick with alot of potential. But I do agree they need to drop the Maria stuff, as I feel it's leading to a Maria heel turn. Not that I'm opposed to a heel turn, but I think of better ways to do it than by sticking up for a heating boyfriend.
Posted By: JLAJRC (Guest) on September 18, 2009 at 04:51 PM
High Road. The reason the WWE didn't have the Ziggler/Morrison match at Breaking Point in because they couldn't come up with a finish. The higher ups consider both of them stars in the making and didn't want to see either one lose to the other in a regular match. That is why the match will probably be at the HIAC PPV. The WWE doesn't protect guys that much, unless they have big plans for them. What does he have? Youth? Check. Ability? Check. Charisma? Check. Potential? Check. The guy has a lot of goods that the WWE would be dumb to ignore. I am interested in what is going on with him and the divas on SD. There are many ways they could play with the whole Ziggler/McCool fake picture deal. Finally, he's probably got one of the greatest smirks in history. When you look like a shit, most fans tend to hate you. When the fans hate you, you become remembered.
Posted By: The Great Capt. Smooth (Guest) on September 18, 2009 at 07:50 PM
I agree the I mean the Zig Zag is a cool finisher but I dont see that as being something a main eventer would use or hell lose to.I still dont know why Benji doesnt use the T-Bone as finisher than that leaping flatliner
Posted By: IC CHamp (Guest) on September 18, 2009 at 03:02 PM
Because he had a nasty habit of dropping people on there head. Not cool. In Dolph's case i'm taking the HIGH ROAD. i think he's great. Just give him some time to fine tune his character and in ring game. Oh yeah, he needs a new name for his finisher. JR called it the Zig Zag on superstars the other night, can't really picture a WHC match ending with JR screaming ZIG ZAG! ZIGGLER HITS THE ZIG ZAG!!! 1,2,3. New Champ. Just sounds weak to me.
Posted By: Luke7766 (Guest) on September 18, 2009 at 07:51 PM
"mproving on the wrestling side would be of far more benefit for a heel than selling well ... Selling well would be more of a factor if he were a face rather than a heel"
I thought good selling was a real boon for a great heel: Flair, Perfect, HBK always sold their asses of as heels.
Posted By: Alec (Guest) on September 18, 2009 at 09:04 PM
"High Road:
A good finishing maneuver is underrated, but very valuable to a wrestler's success. Dolph Ziggler has a great finishing maneuver because it can be hit from anywhere. My only complaint with the finishing maneuver is the fact that it does not have a name, but I would prefer they come with a good name instead of just coming up with a name.
Low Road:
I like a finisher which can be hit from anywhere, but the fact that it has no name does not suggest that WWE are going to push it as a move to be feared. I remember reading an interview with Randy Orton where he was given a couple of hours to think of a name for his finish; while it is not the best name in the world, it has been established as a move which will end a match; Ziggler's nameless finish does not have the same aura in my opinion, nor will it until it gets some attention including a name."
OMG his finisher has a name idiots its the ZigZag wow. Do your research guys.
Posted By: Miz fan (Guest) on September 19, 2009 at 08:07 AM
(followup to my previous post)
I'm still saying High Road, but I have a couple things to add.
If Ziggler gets a new finisher, they should call it the ZigSaw.
And it finally occurred to me who Ziggler reminds me of: "Stunning" Steve Austin from WCCW / early WCW days.
Posted By: guest wrong (Guest) on September 19, 2009 at 12:13 PM
Low Road
Posted By: Guest#6248 (Guest) on September 19, 2009 at 01:40 PM
high road and anyone who disagrees is a fool.
Posted By: db (Guest) on September 19, 2009 at 01:58 PM
High Road, he has everything needed to have success. Lots of charisma and lots of athletic ability plus as you have mentioned a flash finisher (called the Zig Zag BTW) that looks good. Not sure it looks as devestating as the RKO so I don't know if it can beat the main event guys but for now, in the midcard it looks convincing enough. After all the Attitude Adjustment doesn't look like it hurts yet Cena has won loads of belts off that.
Posted By: Zack (Guest) on September 19, 2009 at 04:23 PM
High Road
His relationship w Maria, while backstage fodder now, can elevate his character if done right. his involvement with her doesn't have to hurt. The last heel that had a nice, sweet, dingy valet/ girlfriend did ok without titles right away. If they can book the relationship right, Ziggler could be elevated to mid-main event level like Randy Savage before he even touches the IC title & by then he'll be way over with the non-IWC crowd, more so than guys like Morrisson or R-Truth can hope to be with 3 or zero IC runs... I hope that angle is done right & it doesn't build to a Maria heel turn but whatever keeps her on TV & out of the ring is a high road right there! :-)
His matches are amazing so far & his hunt for the IC title has been way more interesting than any fued brewing on Raw for the US title. If they script title fueds for mid-carders like they have done in Ziggler's & Mysterio's case, then a win isn't entirely necessary...yet.
Posted By: theHomewrecker! (Guest) on September 19, 2009 at 08:58 PM
High Road. Ziggler is the future!
Posted By: Guest#3841 (Guest) on September 20, 2009 at 01:18 AM
I think Ziggler has some potential, hes got some in ring skills, bumps hard, and has shown some solid mic work. However if hes ever goin to get over as a true main event player he needs a NEW name. I just cant see new World Champion "Dolph Ziggler" at all.
Mr. Ziggles?? maybe Morrison might be on to somethin ha
Posted By: ripstamps (Guest) on September 20, 2009 at 10:43 PM
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