Ask 411 Wrestling 09.23.09: Sports Administration, Jobber Entrances and Universal Finishers!

Posted by Mathew Sforcina on 09.23.2009

Why does WWE use licensed music? Why does Homicide hate Dan Maff? Was Dakota really Pillman's Love Child? What was the first WWE Triple Threat Match? What were the TNA tryouts like? Could John Nord have been The Undertaker? And is this the most videos ever in a Ask 411 column? The answers to all these questions, and more, inside!

Welcome one and all and every number of people in between, this is Ask 411 Wrestling, and last time I checked, was still Mathew Sforcina.

Quite a lot of stuff to get through this week, and that's even before we get down to the questions and answers. But, as has been pointed out by someone else, we're supposed to ‘blogify' these things.

Now sure, I'm fine given my sweet banner and my fiddling with the text and weekly comedy video and stuff, but still, always good to err on the side of caution.

Now, let's kick this up a notch~!



Before we begin, I have to point this out. This is the video Linda McMahon has put out announcing her candidacy for the US Senate. I repost the video in case you haven't seen it yet.



Now was I the only one who saw that and had flashbacks to this?



But hey, I'm not telling you anything you didn't already know.

Backtalking

TNA Tryouts: OK, I guess I probably should have mentioned something. But they were a letdown, so I was kinda down on the experience. But given that yet another someone posted my private thoughts on the matter, I might as well go full bore over it.

*glares at JP, realises that if he does so he'll have to answer money questions, stops glairing*

They weren't proper tryouts, like WWE is having in December. It was held in the middle of the CBD out in the open, in the middle of Martin Place. Thus the audience were mostly bored businessmen on their lunch break. I filled out my forms and read over the contract, which said that this was to find one person per state to be a part of the show in that state.

I was given the second match out of like 20, and about 2 minutes, with a finish 15 seconds before we went out. I went out, wrestled, had a good as match as one can have in that time, finished, watched everyone else, went home.

Technically I'm still in with a chance (unless me posting this DQs me which it probably does if they want to DQ me), but I doubt it.

But hey, it's experience, I got on the telly, and theoretically JB knows who I am, since he did genuinely seem to like my work.

The TNA Roundtable: Well, this was interesting. For the record, I didn't expect that jokey set of picks to appear. It was like 12 hours before the thing was due to be posted, and no-one had posted anything, which says something about the PPV. But calling me a WWE fanboy is silly given what prime material you had just above this entry, and my main point still stands. But yes, I probably should have put down a smidgen more about it.

Although this SURE as hell is not my job (it's my pastime), and I didn't ask anyone to defend or oppose my opinion, so both sides have the right to state them.

Is God A Heel or Face?: I'm not going to get into this argument since, as an Atheist, I'm biased. Although I do love you all for having it. I will however point out that the gimmick did split back in the day, you had the three personas, which were heel, face and tweener, so he's kinda been all at once really.

Taker's Threats to HBK: OK, so here's the video that was linked to.



OK, so he probably did have to tell Shawn to go out there and do the job. Although that doesn't mean Taker was there at the Gorilla position dragging him out there. But OK, in future I'll assume Shawn was a pissy whiny bitch.

Highest Paid Wrestler: We covered this a while back, but AndreFan wrote in to point out that in 1974, Andre the Giant was in the Guinness Book of Records as the highest paid wrestler ever. He's probably beaten on the All Time list, but in the territory days he'd be the winner for sure.

Mystery Man: Eric wrote in to say that he too wondered about that guy on the cover of Missy's book, and he asked her about it. She didn't know, but she did say that "the shoot was taking place at wrestling school (I think she said Damien Kane was running the school) and the person in the photo was a student that was picked by the photographer." So there you go.

Magnum and Tully's Wife: And finally Ron pointed out that the email he got over the Just S'Pose column I linked to that was from Magnum's wife has as her name Courtney Blanchard-Allen, so she's either an ex-wife or perhaps a sister.

Your Turn, Smart Guy…

OK, this question didn't exactly set my world on fire after I posted last week's column, so let's get this over with.

"There are 9 WWE titles currently active. Ignoring the Women's belts for the moment, which of the following companies can claim that their alumni have held every WWE title? Note that the person involved has to have held a WWE title AFTER being in that company. So WCW can claim Booker T, but not TNA.

WCW
ECW (Original)
TNA
ROH
AWA
OVW

And, as a bonus, if any of these companies can answer yes, can they also claim the full sweep with the Women's Titles as well?"

Here is those companies that can't claim a full Men's Sweep.

And here's those that can claim a Full Sweep with women too.

Anyone not in either pic can claim the men's but not the women's sweep.

Who am I? A WWE Grand Slam holder who can't run for US President, I've teamed with and feuded with many of the best this industry has to offer. Hogan, Taker, Rock, Austin, Jericho, HHH, RVD, McMahon, Hart, Foley, I've teamed with 7 of them and feuded with 8 of them. A 2 time world champion, it took me a while to find the groove, find the right combination of name, character and outfit/s, but once I found that winning formula, I've stuck with it for a while. Holder of a few Royal Rumble statistical highpoints, I'm still around, and might be YOUR next Intercontinental Champion. Who am I?

Questions, Questions, Who's Got The Questions?

Finally, we get to some questions!

And, as usual given the way I handle questions, we begin with a Puro one to be answered by Ryan Byers. Take it away, Christy.

Did Misawa and Kawada have any real heat with the seniors of All Japan during their meteoric rise during the late Eighties/early Nineties? One particular match in which Kawada helped Misawa rip the Tiger Mask off and beat the shit out of Fuyuki and Yatsu, there were certain sections that really made me think that Kawada was actually pissed off and started kicking the shit out them for real. One of them, Fuyuki (I think) even obliges him by suddenly going all sports entertainment by stupidly selling for missed punches and overreacting, almost scared to further annoy the young bucks. Also, I could swear that in the first triple tag between Jumbo, Fuki, and Taue vs Kawada, Misawa and Kobashi, Taue and Kawada got into it for real! So, any real heat between any of them or was it just the fantastic booking of Baba?

And, once again saving me making a fool of myself, Ryan Byers!

First off, I'm not sure if I'm misreading the question or if this reader's timeline is a bit off, but it isn't quite accurate to refer to Kodo "Samson" Fuyuki and Yoshiaki Yatsu as the "seniors" of All Japan compared to Toshiaki Kawada and Mitushara Misawa. All four men debuted in between the years of 1980 and 1982, so they're actually contemporaries, not two different generations of wrestler. In fact, Akira Taue was by far the least experienced of the bunch, having not debuted until 1988 . . . so if you think you're seeing "shoots" involving Kawada and Misawa on one side and Fuyuki, Taue, and Yatsu on the other, it's not because the latter group thought that Kawada and Misawa were disrespectful young punks trying to steal their spots. The five men are all of the same generation.

With that being said, I have never heard anything about there being legitimate heat between any of the men named in this question. If you think that you see Toshiaki Kawada beating the hell out of an opponent "for real" in an All Japan match, he probably was beating the hell out of his opponent for real. However, that's not because there was ill will between the wrestlers . . . that's because Kawada has treated EVERYBODY that way (and, to his credit, he takes it as good as he gives it). Hell, even today as a broken-down 45 year old he's brutalizing his much younger opponents.

As far as the men who actually were the older generation at the time are concerned, from my understanding this was one of the rare times in professional wrestling history during which the established stars understood that it was time for them to step down in order to allow a new batch of headliners to develop. Giant Baba had already been in wrestling for close to thirty years at this point and was breaking down. Jumbo Tsuruta probably would have had five to eight more good years in him but was diagnosed with Hepatitis and knew that he could no longer be a full-time, main event level wrestler. It was crucial for the survival of All Japan that they be replaced by a group of legitimate stars, and it seems that they were more than willing to do anything in order to allow Misawa, Kawada, and Kobashi to become those stars

Steve joins a list of question askers who show just how much of a backlog I have.

Hey Great Column. I was wondering, with the upcoming Night of Champions, has there ever been a WWE PPV with so many heel vs heel or face vs face matches? (this is with the idea that CM Punk is still a face). Furthermore you can almost consider Orton vs HHH vs Cena a tweener vs tweener vs tweener, based on the reactions they get in various cities.

Well, while I might give you Cena as a Tweener, Orton's hardly one to get tweener reactions nowadays. So, with that said, if you give Punk is still a face at that point, it has 3 face/face and heel/heel matches (JeriShow V Legacy, Punk V Hardy and Dreamer V Christian). Now, without going through EVERY bloody WWE PPV ever, I think you have a winner in Survivor Series 98. Shamrock V Goldust was a clear heel/heel match. If you give that he was acting sorta heelish, Mankind V Gill is also Heel/Heel. Kane hadn't really turned face, so Taker V Kane was heel/heel, technically. And given that Rock never officially turned face (like how Punk hadn't officially turned heel), Rock V Bossman, Shamrock AND Mankind were all heel/heel, giving us 6 matches total.

Anyone else out there got a more concrete PPV? I can't think of one…

JBBTHWK has two questions.

everyone knows the Jobber entrance is where the guy is already in the ring and the announcer calls them after the winning superstar has come down, but my question is when was the last time a superstar that got the Jobber Entrance won a match?

Well, sadly Snitsky didn't actually win his debut against Kane, that was a no contest. Certainly the last major guy to win on a jobber debut would be, ironically enough considering your next question, Bill Goldberg in his debut in WCW.



That's the last full blown "No music, announced after the other guy" Jobber Entrance winner I could find. Loosen the definition slightly, and the winner is The Great Khali on the 06/05/09 edition of SD.



So it depends on how rigid you are about the entrance.

also, Didn't Goldberg beat the same guy in his first match in WCW and WWE? I could almost swear he beat Bill Demott aka Hugh Morris because I remember a promo Demott cut about how he was not going to be the first victim of Goldberg's twice. please help me on this.

Well, no. Goldberg's first match in the WWE was at Backlash, when he defeated The Rock. His first Raw match saw him defeat 3 Minute Warning.

As for Hugh being the first guy to lose to Goldberg twice, that's not true. Bobby Eaton holds that record, as he lost to Goldberg at two house shows in a row, November 1st and 2nd, 1997.

Renegade has the record for the first guy to lose to Goldberg twice on TV, both of those losses on Saturday Night. Hugh can claim to be the first guy to lose to Goldberg twice on Nitro, but he cut no promo on his second loss, instead Jimmy Hart came out to speak to him, then he lost to Goldberg. And the two didn't interact in WWE, so I can't help you here.

Matt has a few questions.

Hey there, good work on the column!

I have a couple questions for you regarding entrance music and finishing moves:

1) Back in the old days of the WWF wrestlers used to have their themes composed and recorded in-house. Now though, most wrestlers (such as HHH, Orton, CM Punk, etc.) make their entrances to licensed songs. Why and when did Vince decide to make that change? Was it because he lost Jimmy Hart, who composed most of the old themes? Also, who was the first WWF/E wrestler to use a licensed song? The earliest one I can recall was Biker Taker.

Well, to answer your second part first, Hulk Hogan's the first big name to have a popular song for his entrance, he used "Eye Of The Tiger" in 84-86. Real American came later.

As for losing Jimmy Hart, that's not a huge loss, Jim Johnston is the current WWE Music Guy, a guy who I think is somewhat under-credited. Regardless, the change occurred when they began to get really huge again, in Attitude. At that point, the WWE could afford to get big names in to do music. At first, they would license songs that the artists had, and then after a certain point they compromised and began to go with the current model. In the current model, Jim Johnston composes the songs, then they will bring in an outside band to record it. That way, they only have to pay for the rights to the performance and not the rights to the song itself.

Any song that isn't by a band (or in rare cases is a music library track) will have Jim Johnston play all the instruments and then a guest vocalist in to sing it.

So, they changed when they could afford to and wanted to become more mainstream, it's just now they do it smarter than they used to.

2) What sort of things do wrestlers and trainers take into account when coming up with appropriate finishing moves? I ask because some wrestlers' finishers seem somewhat at odds with their ring style, size, or persona. CM Punk's GTS, for example, looks out of place when he uses it on anyone bigger than him, and I've never seen MVP deliver a Playmaker that didn't look awkward as hell.

There's a multitude of factors to take into account when picking a finisher. You have to consider what the guy can do, what the majority of people can take, what is appropriate for their character, what's appropriate for the company, if anyone else is using it, if it looks good, if it's safe… It's endless.

As for your examples, the GTS is fairly safe and while awkward looking on huge guys it's still useable.

The Playmaker I can't defend though.

3) Why do some wrestlers change finishers after a while but others don't? When Jericho made his comeback he started using the Codebreaker. John Morrison has been using Starship Pain, even though the Moonlight Drive had been very well established as his finish. Triple H has been using the Pedigree forever, even though he's developed a more *ahem* power-oriented physique over time.

Some guys like to keep things fresh. Some think up brand new moves and want to try them out, and then it may or may not work out. Some get told to change. Again, a multitude of reasons.

Jericho said he thought of the Codebreaker on his time away, given that he didn't have an impact finisher. Morrison… I guess it's a combination of Pain looking better and being a move he can use on anyone, whereas the Neckbreaker can be awkward on huge guys/anyone not used to it. And the Pedigree's perfect, why change it?

4) What makes moves like the Spear and variations on the Stunner/Cutter and neckbreaker so popular as finishers?

They're easy to do, look good, are over, can be done on anyone anywhere, and can be hit out of lots of positions. The best finishers are ones that can be used anywhere anytime on anyone out of anything. Sweet Chin Music, Stone Cold Stunner, Ankle Lock, Rock Bottom…

Is this not the greatest achievement in Human History? I think so.



After that, we have Shaun asking about beefs.

Hey there. Love the column. My question is about Homicide and his beef with Dan Maff. I know the two absolutely hate each other, but I've never heard the backstory. What's the deal?

Well, we don't know the full details. All we have is Homicide's final words on the matter. Note, the following paragraph contains naughty words and adult situations. If you do not wish to read such things, please ignore the text between the following gifs.


"This is the last time you will hear or see me mentioning that jabroni's name again. Dan Maff is done in the wrestling business. Finished. Maff blackballed himself. I did not blackball Maff. Promoters had to pick me or him, and all the promoters picked me because of what Maff did. There is only one side of the story and Maff fucked up and that is why he is done and no one is using him. Maff fucked with my family and fucked with my personal life. Maff is a pedophile. I hope fans can understand this. This shit is personal. This is my life. Maff screwed Maff and blackball himself because of what he did. No promoter want to use him because of what he did. Maff is done with wrestling."


So, assuming that Homicide isn't just using that term as an insult, and assuming Homicide isn't lying, it's clear that Maff interacted with someone in Homicide's family inappropriately, according to Homicide.

I'm not going to take a guess or make statements on the issue, given how passionate Homicide feels/felt about it. But Dan is back in JAPW, as their champion, with Homicide on the card as well (the last show had Homicide on second last, Maff in the main event), so clearly the two have come to SOME détente.

Brian asks about matches that may or may not have occurred.

I'm just wondering if these matches took place during the short time that these men were in the same place at the same time, (and if so) were they on TV and/or at least taped? Thank you for taking the time to read this; The Fantastics vs. The Midnight Express (Condry & Rose) WCW '88

*fires up History of WWE*

Yes they did, several times. November 18, 1988, in Washington DC, Dennis Condrey & Randy Rose defeated Bobby Fulton & Tommy Rogers. Then again the next night in Philly. On the Christmas Day edition of ‘The Main Event' (filmed Nov 25), an edited version of Al Perez, Rip Morgan, Dennis Condrey & Randy Rose beating Eddie Gilbert, the Italian Stallion, Bobby Fulton & Tommy Rogers was shown, with Condrey pinning The Stallion. But the December 6 NWA show saw Rose and Condrey beat the Fantastics in a televised match, thanks to a Paul E phone shot. The New Year's Eve edition of Worldwide saw The Fantastics beat the Original Midnight Express in a 2/3 falls match. Dec 28th, the OMR beat the Fantastics. It continued into the new year, 2nd Jan, the Fantastics, with Cornette, beat the OMR. Jan 6 and 7, same result. And that was the end of their feud, such as it was.

Ricky Steamboat vs. Mr. Perfect WWF '91,

They were supposed to. They were scheduled to meet at the Wrestling Challenge TV tapings of August 20th, 1991, for the IC title, but it was cancelled due to Perfect having a back injury. Steamboat left before they were able to have the match.

Ricky Steambeat vs. Ric Flair WWF '91,

No. Steamboat was too far down the card.

Ricky Steamboat vs. Chris Benoit WCW '93 ( I'll accept Steamboat & Douglas vs. Benoit & Eaton as an answer ),

Benoit did target Steamboat, among others, in an early promo. But the two never crossed paths.

& The Steiner Brothers vs. Chris Benoit & Dean Malenko ECW '95.

No. The Steiners did wrestle against both men, Malenko twice (once in a 6 man loss with Eddie Guerrero against Malenko, 2 Cold Scorpio and Cactus Jack, Aug 5th in the ECW Arena, and then they defeated Malenko and Scorpio August 25th), and Benoit once (the night after beating Scorpio and Malenko, they beat Scorpio and Benoit), but not the two together.

Next up some Ultimate Warrior questions, from Chris.

Hello First time Writer I have a couple of Ultimate Warrior Questions I would Like answed please.

1) Can you confirm this, Bret Hart Said that at the 1993 Royal Rumble his original partner was meant to be the Ultimate Warrior if he had not been fired. can you share any light on this please.

Well, not really. Warrior was meant to turn heel at Summerslam 92, and thus, logically, Warrior/Bret at the Rumble might well have occurred (although the belt may have been on Warrior and not Bret). I can't really explain it more than that.

2) When was the decision made to take the WWF title of Warrior, would it have been in the summer of 90 when slaughter came in? Or you think it was after survivor series? and why didnt they go go Hogan warrior 2 instead, that would have soled out the colosium considering how good there Mania6 match was.

Well, I can't pin-point it exactly, but at some point in late 1990, the WWF lost faith in Warrior as champion, and thus they panicked and decided to go back to Hogan. But while they had lost faith in Warrior as champion, he was still a draw, hence they didn't want to turn him heel. And it was so logical to think that Slaughter, given how much heat he was getting, would work as a heel. So they used him to get the belt back on Hogan without having to risk the fans turning on Warrior.

Ben gets a cop-out answer.

I remember a relative of mine playing a video of a past WCW match once from several years ago (I think it was War Games, with the two rings in a cage but I'm not sure). Anyway, there was a spot where Sid Vicious called a spot with the Steiner's that was too audible (you can hear Sid asking Scott if Rick is in place in the opposite ring corner for the next spot, saying "is he on the second rope" or something to that effect). Can you provide any other examples of wrestlers calling these a little too loudly (I would call it a "kayfabe buster", lol).

Whaddya think?

A start to the world of Botchamania. They have a regular feature of "Everyone Talks Too Much" dedicated to this very subject. Go nuts.

Michael asks about a little girl.

I remember the start of the Goldust-Pillman feud, when Goldust refused to wrestle Pillman, so Pillman mentioned 'Dusts daughter Dakota, to which Marlena grabbed the Mic and said that Dust would fight Pillman shocking Golddust. I'm assuming the angle was that Dakota wasn't Rhodes daughter and that Marlena didn't want him to know. Was the angle that Pillman was actually the father? I never heard the conclusion of this storyline and actually, I don't remember it being mentioned on TV ever again. Is Dakota, Rhodes' daughter? Even so, did Marlena and Pillman have a romantic i.e sexual history?

Actually, they did come out and say it, with an infamous quote, "Dakota's mine! She's my love child!" on the 18th of August 1997 edition of Raw. I think you must have seen an edited version, given that you had half of the segment right…



And yes, the two did have a history. Terri Runnels began as a make up girl at CNN, taking on doing make up for Jim Crockett on the weekends, before she became Alexandra York. At this point, she and Pillman briefly dated, until Brian found out his ex-girlfriend was pregnant with his child, so the two decided to return to being friends.

So there was some truth to it, but it was still twisted around. Dakota was not actually Pillman's daughter.

texans9 asks a short question.

Im working on a degree in Sports Adminstration. I was wondering what would a degree with Sports Adminstration do for me in the WWE or TNA?

Well, it's not the worst thing to try and parley into a job. Certainly WWE's business do state that working in the sports field is appropriate. However, as a rule, the WWE tends to state 3-5 years experience in the business world at a minimum. So while the degree is a great start, you'll still need to work a bit outside the WWE before you apply. But you'll be in a better position then most people.

TNA is a lot less open about job opportunities, but then again, they might be more willing to take on a rookie. Worth a shot at least.

Marty has another simple question.

When did WWE start using the triple threat stipulation in title matches?

OK, this will probably get overruled by someone, but to my knowledge, the very first triple threat match in WWE history was this one. HHH V Goldust V Owen Hart (c) for the IC Title, 23rd of June, 1997.

My Damm Opinion

Gregory asks about what could have been.

In JJ Dillon's book, he writes that Mark Calloway had been signed by the WWF in the fall of 1990. According to Dillon, Vince McMahon, Pat Patterson, and himself spent a great deal of time trying to figure out a gimmick for him. In the end, it came down to 2 choices: The first being an evil Undertaker and the second being an evil Viking. The genius McMahon chose the former.

Now I'm not sure on the timeline, but I think John Nord debuted as the Berzerker at around the same time. If you think about it, both Calloway and Nord were both agile, athletic big men so it is not impossible to see why Vince might have viewed them as interchangeable back in 1990.

Do you think Calloway would have achieved the same level of success as The Berzerker as he enjoyed being the Undertaker? Would John Nord have become a legend had he been given the Undertaker gimmick? Are you of the opinion that given their skill sets, Mark Calloway was destined to get over and succeed one way or another and John Nord would always be a servicable mid-carder or do you believe that given the merits of each gimmick, clearly whoever became the Undertaker would have an inherent advantage or some variation of the two?

Well, you do have a bit of a flaw in the argument, in that John Nord, while coming into the company in 1991, had already used "The Barbarian" as a gimmick in his career leading up to his WWF debut. So it's not like he only became a Viking in the WWF.

But even if you take that out, and assume both went in fresh…

The thing is, Calloway and Taker clicked. From day 1, he GOT the character, and it helped him hide his flaws and accentuate his positives. Whereas Nord, while solid, wasn't quite as high and low.

A Viking character for Mark might well have exposed him early on, and thus he wouldn't have got as far. And while it's possible he would have been great at it, I don't see Nord as a zombie.

So I think it's a case where neither the Undertaker character nor Mark Calloway were destined to succeed. You needed them together, to really work. He might have done OK as a Viking, and Nord might have been good as Taker, but Mark and Taker together was magic.

Vinson asks for a lot of thinking.

In Dusty Roads Hall of Fame Speech, he said that his dream version of the 4 Horsemen would be Dusty Rhodes, Harley Race, Arn Anderson, and of course Ric Flair. My question is, using any combination of wrestlers from the 80s up, who do you think would have made the best Horsemen, DX, NWO, Nation of Domination, Hart Foundation, Fabulous Freebirds, and any other factions that you could think of.

Horsemen: Ric Flair, Arn Anderson, Tully Blanchard, Triple H, Bobby Heenan.

DX: Shawn Michaels, Triple H, Chyna, The Miz, John Morrison.

NWO: Kevin Nash, Scott Hall, Big Show/Giant, Shawn Michaels, X-Pac, Scott Steiner, Midajah.

Nation Of Domination: Bad News Brown, Mark Henry, D'Lo Brown, Shelton Benjamin, Amazing Kong, Jacqueline, Kenny King, Rhett Titus.

That's not a typo.

Hart Foundation: The 97 Version was pretty much perfect. MAYBE add Yokozuna as the ‘muscle' and Trish as a valet, but that's pushing it.

The Freebirds: Michael Hayes, Terry Gordy, Buddy Roberts, Kerry Von Erich, Jimmy Garvin, Sunshine, Precious.

And, with such an open ended question open to debate, I'll open the floodgates, and ask for your guys takes, and call it a night. See you next week!