411’s Buy or Sell 9.25.09: The Nigel McGuiness and Bryan Danielson Farewell Roundtable

Posted by Michael Bauer on 09.25.2009

This week, the 411 Wrestling Staff gets together to look back at the Independent Careers of Nigel McGuiness and Bryan Danielson in this special edition of Buy or Sell!

Welcome everyone to Week 126 of BUY or SELL. For those of you who haven't been with us since the beginning, here's the Reader's Digest version of what this column is all about. BUY or SELL is very much like 411's long-running Fact or Fiction column. The main difference is that BUY or SELL focuses on topics like the U.S. Independent scene, Lucha Libre, Japanese Wrestling and pretty much anything else that isn't mainstream wrestling, WWE and or TNA. This allows for these areas to get a bit more press and for you, our loyal readers, to learn even more about the sport of professional wrestling.

SPECIAL BANNER!


(Special thanks to Jasper Gerretsen)


1) Bryan Danielson is synonymous with Ring of Honor, but his presence was felt across the entire United States, Europe, and Japan. Who is truly next in the line to be the Independent Wrestling "Best in the World"?

Michael Bauer: I never fully believed in Bryan Danielson anointing Davey Richards as the next "Best in the World", but when looking around, there isn't many people who can combine his youth, charisma, and talent. Davey is already being given the ball in Full Impact Pro and looks poised to do the same in Dragon Gate USA. FIP might not have much weight, but DG USA has more prestige thanks to its parent company than almost every independent in America. That bodes well for Davey.



Ari Berenstein: I've been commenting over the last few weeks that I believe that Davey Richards is the closest within Ring of Honor to taking the steps needed over the next year or so. He can become the next "Best Wrestler in the World" if he keeps the pace of must-see matches and spot-on promo work that he's been producing all year.

However, the way this statement was phrased makes me think about the very idea of someone touring all across the planet and representing the ideal of the "best wrestler". Sure, Richards can make some definitive impact on the future of Ring of Honor and even Dragon Gate USA, but both of those promotions are based in America. Can he do the same in Europe or Japan? That's a question that is much harder to say "yes" to, especially since Japan isn't utilizing as much of the Gaijin wrestlers as they have the previous three years.

So who else is out there who can truly be independent wrestling's "Best in the World"? Chris Hero has the presence and play in both Europe and Japan and he has been on a similar rise this year comparable to Richards.

Another, more interesting bit of speculation could occur if we reverse the trend—how about if someone important and dominant from one of the international countries comes across to America and begins to rule over here? There is one such a man who fits that description-KENTA. He has an important role to play in Pro Wrestling NOAH, has interacted and crossed over for dream matches with other wrestling companies in Japan, has wrestled in Europe for NOAH tour stops there. He has also quietly (relative to the hype guys like Hero and Richards are receiving) built up quite a resume for himself over the past year with his efforts in ROH. He is consistently involved with one of the best matches of the night whether it for an HDNet taping or a DVD show. KENTA is not able to speak English all that well enough for promos, but from a pure wrestling aspect KENTA may indeed be the actual "Best Wrestler in the World" once Danielson and McGuinness leave for WWE.


Steve Cook: Davey Richards is a popular answer, and I was very impressed with his match against Claudio Castagnoli in Dayton last week. He's really stepped up his game in the ring. I'm not too sure about his promo skills, as his stuff on HDNet hasn't done much for me…but I haven't seen too many DVD shows this year so maybe he's doing good stuff there. Chris Hero is probably the most well-traveled top-notch indy wrestler and has had an outstanding 2009. Austin Aries has had a tremendous 2009 in ROH and has also provided entertaining moments in PWG & Chikara…even though he's relying more on character-driven work than just pure workrate, maybe he's the pick to be Best in the World. I guess it depends if you think that the title of "Best in the World" should only go to the best pure wrestler. As WWE & TNA have proven…great workrate doesn't always equal money. I also have to mention Mike Quackenbush here, even though he's not as active as he used to be he's probably the most over babyface in Dragon Gate USA and is a master of many different wrestling styles.

Aaron Hubbard: Well, let's not start with easy questions. If you are looking for "guy who has great matches every time out", there's quite a few people that contend for that honor: Roderick Strong and Tyler Black come to mind. If you want to extend the list to Japanese Wrestlers, it's hard to argue with a motivated KENTA as far as delivering an exciting match every time out. Dragon Gate also has a couple of young aces in Naruki Doi and Shingo that deserve mention. Jerry Lynn and Mike Quackenbush are two excellent veterans who show no signs of slowing down. If you mean somebody who mixes character work, promos and hard work, there is Austin Aries and, to a lesser extent, Chris Hero. Aries can be the epitome of workrate when he wants to be, and he can be the best heel in the independents when he wants to be, but he seems to have trouble doing both. Otherwise, he would be a lock for the "Best in the World".

But honestly, I have to go with the man Bryan Danielson has been endorsing. Davey Richards has been impressive. His in-ring work has always been solid, and this year, he's been nothing short of stellar. His style mixes the best of the Dynamite Kid, KENTA, and Chris Benoit. He has an incredible intensity and can be an absolute dick of a heel when he wants to be. He can work a technical style, a hard hitting style, and a high flying style, giving him incredible versatility. His own weak area is his promos, but Bryan grew into a solid promo when many said he couldn't cut an entertaining promo to save his life. So yeah, Davey Richards is my pick.

Samuel Berman: A year ago, I would have said Jimmy Jacobs hands-down. However, with Jacobs on hiatus from competition in Ring of Honor, he has taken a step down in terms of having a national profile. Davey Richards seems to be the conventional answer, but I'm less sold on him as a singles competitor as compared to his work with Eddie Edwards as the American Wolves. Austin Aries and Tyler Black are both phenomenal workers, but I'm not sure that either has the ability to make any match they're in a must-see event the way that Danielson was able to in recent years. I've been a Chris Hero fan for a long time, and while I think he has the tools to take the torch from Danielson, the big star shine he had three or four years ago seems to have faded somewhat. For now, I'm going to put my money on a darkhorse and say that Brian Kendrick will re-establish himself as a top Independent talent. Come to think of it, Kendrick running his mouth about how he's better than Danielson would work as a gimmick in almost any Independent company in the world... By the way, anyone else remember three years ago when Roderick Strong was a shoe-in for this spot?

Jasper Gerretsen: Danielson's "Best in the World" monniker doesn't just come from his in-ring ability or his long list of big name victories, but also from his ability to travel anywhere in the world and adapt to the local style almost flawlessly. As it stands right now, it doesn't seem like there's anybody who can match up to all three criteria. Richards, Quackenbush and Aries seemingly always deliver in the ring, and Hero and Castagnoli have had significant success in both America, Europe and Japan, but I don't think anyone out there currently qualifies as the complete package that Danielson was. If I had to put money on anyone becoming that complete package in the foreseeable future, it would have to be Davey Richards.


2) The WWE is known for the "evil foreigner" gimmick. It would be wise to not automatically slot Nigel into this gimmick.

Michael Bauer: It has been done over and over again, why does Nigel need to do it also? Yeah, I'm sure he could fit in with William Regal, but not every foreign born person is an automatic heel. Now, this is not saying Nigel McGuinness shouldn't be heel. He is a natural heel and should stay that way in the WWE, but I think they can come up with something better than the generic "evil foreigner" routine.

Ari Berenstein: Nigel McGuinness's ability to be a heel lives far deeper than the stereotypical "evil foreigner" gimmick…however, it wouldn't be that bad a plan for Nigel to go there, if just for the ease of transition into WWE and for ease of acceptance by WWE fans. Honestly, Nigel has never shied away from his loyalty to Mother England—he wears the bleedin' Union Jack on the inside of his jacket and it's all over much of his merchandise. I think if WWE slots him as someone who sees and points out the underside of American culture, you can easily slot him into feuds based on patriotism against the faces in the company and effortlessly pair him up with his fellow Brits William Regal or Paul Birchaill on ECW. Not only wouldn't it be the worst thing in the world for Nigel to play the "Country" card, but it may actually be the best move possible.

Steve Cook: Nigel absolutely should be an evil foreigner. Would you rather have them announce him as being from Cincinnati, Ohio? Times are good for the evil Brits in WWE, as William Regal is leading the ECW heel roster, Paul & Katie Lea Burchill are also doing their thing on ECW, and Drew McIntyre is slowly gaining sea legs on Smackdown. If they insist on not teaming Regal & the Burchills like I wish they would, I think Nigel would be a great choice to team with Paul and maybe have something going with Katie on the side. There aren't many other appropriate fits I see for Nigel at the moment that aren't completely unrealistic.

Aaron Hubbard: Isn't "evil British guy" Nigel's gimmick already? I mean, for crying out loud, as an ROH fan, I want Nigel and Bryan changed as little as possible. And really, "evil Brits" are a different bird than other evil foreigners; they are from the motherland and we don't really have anything worse than a friendly rivalry with them. Honestly, I would love to Nigel and Bryan feud over who gets to be William Regal's protégé. Bryan was trained by him, but Nigel is British. It's intriguing.

Samuel Berman: While McGuinness could most certainly be successful without being portrayed as an evil Brit, I actually think it wouldn't be the worst decision in the world to let him run with something simple like that and let his natural charisma and talent get him over further. I think Nigel will be better served as a heel and if going with the cookie-cutter persona gives him the opportunity to show what he can do, so be it.

Jasper Gerretsen: I really don't think they'll slap an evil foreigner gimmick on Nigel, as traditionally this has always worked back with more hated nationalities, such as the Russians, Iranians and French. Besides, Nigel is capable of so much more as a character. However, I think that in this case going for the lowest common denominator might not be the worst idea, as the whole concept will be easy enough to grasp by the WWE fans. People have started out with silly gimmicks before, such as Regal's hilariously bad Man's Man period, but there has always been room for truly talented workers to grow out of it as time goes along.


3) Bryan Danielson has been rumored as a WWE target for a much longer time than Nigel McGuinness. How long do you think Ring of Honor knew that both men would leave at the same time and did they book accordingly?

Michael Bauer: I don't think anyone could have seen them leave at the same time. Danielson was a long time prospect to leave and think that became apparent to Ring of Honor as early as last year when they started with the weekly television show. But I felt like Nigel had some more time before he would get that call, especially with his recent injuries. Sure, Ring of Honor had to eventually take the title off of Nigel, but I don't think it would have happened yet if there was no thought of him leaving yet and he didn't get hurt. Once he lost the belt, I think it was very apparent he would be gone soon.

Ari Berenstein: Judging from reports from sources such as Wrestling Observer and PWInsider, ROH knew that either or both Danielson and McGuinness leaving was a distinct possibility as early as the beginning of the year. It was rather obvious that something was up when both refused to sign new contracts with the company. Difficult as it may be to consider then, ROH attempted to do the right thing for the company by beginning to de-emphasize Danielson and push other wrestlers like Austin Aries and Tyler Black to the top of the roster depth chart. In that respect, Danielson was used appropriately throughout the last several months by booking him to lose to other wrestlers who were more likely to stick around.

While there is still plenty of debate as to whether or not Jerry Lynn should have been booked to become the new champion, a title change was needed at the time due to McGuinness's injury. Since then he was almost a non-factor, with the lingering injury inhibiting his ability to wrestle at the level previously seen of him, and while he did main event some HDNet Tapings and received an additional title shot after his return, he was not booked to look like he was about to regain the ROH World Title at any point since April.

Steve Cook: I don't think ROH expected them to leave at the same time. I had been expecting Dragon to leave for at least a year now, and they had booked him like he was on his way out for about that long. ROH probably expected him to leave sooner. I think they knew that when Nigel came back from his most recent injury that he was probably going to be seeking work elsewhere, probably somewhere with a less demanding in-ring style. I do think that their leaving at the same time took ROH by surprise, as now they have to replace two of their top stars at the same time instead of just one. Maybe they should have looked at the history of ECW and learned what happens when a wrestling promotion gets a TV deal.

Aaron Hubbard: Bryan Danielson's booking has definitely been indicative of him leaving ROH for awhile. For the most part, he's been used to put over Tyler Black and the American Wolves, both by losing to them and by having awesome matches with them. He has been treated with respect, getting time on television to wrestle the kind of match he wants to wrestle, and as long as Dragon got to have a great match, it was fine. Bryan has unselfishly looked up at the lights over and over again this year. Compared to the last ROH Legend to leave, Bryan has been an absolute saint in putting people over, and he is leaving ROH as good as it was before he left.

Nigel is a little harder to comment on. He had an injury and that kept him from really "being booked" beyond cutting promos. Between his injuries, injuries to Lynn and injuries to Tyler Black, Nigel has had more storylines prematurely ended than anyone in ROH. He's just been too far out of the picture due to other circumstances to honestly say that he's been booked as though he was expected to leave.

Samuel Berman: I have no idea when Danielson and McGuinness made their decisions or how long (if at all) they were in consultation with ROH management on the matter. Anything I'd say here would be blind speculation.

Jasper Gerretsen: I think it's obvious that Danielson would be looking to go elsewhere for a wile now, ever since the rumors of him not resigning first started surfacing. They've been utilizing Danielson as more of a stepping stone since 2008 (and I don't mean that in a bad way), helping establish guys like Tyler Black, the American Wolves and Claudio Castagnoli. Nigel wasn't booked much after his return from injury, but at the same time he wasn't fully recovered either. Still, I think that the frantic reshuffling of the cards to allow the final Danielson/McGuinness match in New York is pretty much all the proof we need that, at the very least, they didn't expect Nigel to leave so suddenly, or at the same time as Danielson.


4) Bryan Danielson was considered to be the heart of Ring of Honor. Do you ever see anyone being as important to Ring of Honor as American Dragon?



Michael Bauer: I honestly doubt it. Austin Aries could have been that guy, but I just don't see the fanbase grasping to him like they ever did for Joe, Punk, or Dragon. Tyler Black, as young and as good as he is, doesn't have the popularity you might expect, since there are plenty of detractors. And Davey Richards is probably more over with everywhere else before even considering Ring of Honor. Down the line, somebody could come along and take the reigns, but I doubt anyone can match Bryan Danielson's meaning to the promotion.

Ari Berenstein: Well, there were quite a few names who were as important to ROH, that is before they left. Samoa Joe, CM Punk, and booker Gabe Sapolsky all were the critical pieces of the puzzle that led the development of ROH as a brand name going all the way back from 2002 until the time each of them left for other companies or were fired. Especially from about 2002-2005, Dragon was only really part time in ROH and would frequently go on extended trips to England, Japan or elsewhere (which is how he gained such a world-wide presence on the independent wrestling scene in the first place).

However, lest I be considered argumentative, let's say that Danielson was the heart of ROH, especially since the others left and through to current day. If that is the case, then no, I do not see anyone as important to ROH currently on the roster as Dragon had been over the years. However, that doesn't mean that someone won't step up and become as important to ROH over time—that is, if ROH continues to exist well into the future. It takes years and many "game changing" circumstances to build the sort of connection that Dragon has with the crowd. If you give someone on the roster that time, maybe it happens. It could also be that someone who isn't on the roster steps up to fill in that role.

Steve Cook: They better hope so. It's far too soon to tell who exactly it will be, as few would have predicted how important Dragon would be to Ring of Honor several years ago. For the good of that company, somebody will have to step up and be the heart of Ring of Honor. Most things without a heart don't last very long.

Aaron Hubbard: Honestly, it's impossible to say. I don't think people expected Bryan to become as important to ROH as he became. Though Bryan is one of the "founding fathers" of ROH, he spent the first three and a half years as a part-time worker, almost a special attraction. Even Gabe Sapolsky admitted that he saw Bryan as "the guy who has great matches who I can job to my REAL stars". And then, after the "Summer of Punk" and the surprise signing of James Gibson by WWE, Bryan came in and won the title, and promised to stay and defend the title like a man. You can't really repeat those same set of circumstances, because they were unforeseeable. So, somebody filling Dragon's role as "The Heart of Ring of Honor" is unforeseeable too.

I will say this: Bryan is a unique individual. People that are trained by Shawn Michaels because Dean Malenko closed his camp, who was scouted by the WWE, further trained by William Regal, world traveled before becoming ROH World Champion are very, very rare. Bryan Danielson didn't replace Samoa Joe and CM Punk, and Bryan will not be replaced either. Someone will follow in his footsteps, but they won't be Bryan.

Samuel Berman: This is a tough call, because four years ago, I would have said that no one would be as important to ROH as CM Punk and Samoa Joe had been. Danielson has since surpassed both men, at least in my opinion, as the true standard of ROH competition. While it's difficult to envision ANYONE becoming as equated with excellence as the American Dragon has become, I won't discount the possibility that someone will be able to reach that level in the future, just as Danielson reached the plateau pioneered by Punk and Joe.

Jasper Gerretsen: Samoa Joe has definitely been as important as Danielson was pretty much from the moment he won the title until he left the company. Looking at the current roster, I don't know if anyone will be as important as Danielson was in the near future, but they're definitely in rebuild mode right now. Tyler Black could be great in a few years, Austin Aries' new heel character looks to have some longevity, and Davey Richards has been improving rapidly for years now. None of these guys can currently claim to truly be the face of the company at the moment, but that could change over the next few months.


5) Everyone gets injured in wrestling. Nigel had his World Title reign affected by two of them. Will this damage his RoH legacy?

Michael Bauer: If his first cost him his title reign, then it would be an absolute yes, but since it didn't, then it didn't. The second injury came so far into his reign that there is no way it could kill his legacy. And like everyone will probably note, his injuries made him back into that killer heel champion that EVERYONE was begging to lose to the title. If he never got injured the first time, I doubt his title reign would have been as good as it truly was.

Ari Berenstein: NO and realistically the first injury actually helped shape his ROH legacy rather than damage it. It was the reaction from the fans regarding the early injuries that created the character change that carried the momentum of his ROH World Title run for almost eighteen months. As far as the second injury, apparently the title change in April was always in the plans, so McGuinness gritting through and making it to the shows in order to drop the belt the "proper", "professional" way just accentuates why he got to where he did during his career.

All told, he was a very important player in the company, taking over for Samoa Joe in the top position from 2007 onward. Winning the ROH World Title in addition to the Pure Title and the great feuds he had along the way all cement McGuinness's legacy in ROH.

Steve Cook: Absolutely not. Nigel's injuries were a key factor in getting his title reign the notoriety it had…but I'll go on record as saying that the ROH fans turning on Nigel for getting hurt was total bullshit. Now, he did things later on to deserve his heat, but the guy really didn't deserve the heat he got from the NYC fans for not being able to work Glory by Honor VI, and not being able to work Final Battle 2007 after that. They were just mad that they didn't get to see a title match and acted like petulant children. Not all of them, but most of them did.

Aaron Hubbard: Nope, not one bit. Nigel's reign was actually made better because of his injury, because the fans turned on him and turned him into a despised heel. Nigel was able to elevate everyone he worked with and made you believe that he would lose the title every time he stepped into the ring, and that's no small feat. He fought through both injuries to become one of the best champions in the company's history. Far from damaging his legacy, the injuries will actually add to it.

Samuel Berman: Not in the least, and that's hard for me to admit as I was one of the more vocal critics of Nigel early in his title reign. Realistically, McGuinness leaves ROH as a key player in the company's history, but a half-step below Danielson, Punk, Joe and even Homicide and the Briscoes. Part of it is luck, with Nigel's reign continuing into a less successful period for ROH (as compared to Danielson, whose reign seemed to create bigger and bigger audiences as it went along). Part of it is the perceived monotony of Nigel's style (which is a fair critique, despite Nigel's in-ring excellence). Nigel was one of ROH's great talents, but I would say that he does not leave as a part of the company's Mount Rushmore.

Jasper Gerretsen: McGuinness' title reign isn't the only one that was cut short by injury. Danielson struggled with injuries for the last few months of his reign too, and eventually he was forced to drop the title to recover. It didn't seem to affect him negatively, and I don't think it has affected Nigel negatively either. I absolutely loved Nigel's promo at Supercard of Honor IV, talking about how banged up he was, how tempted he was to just stay down and accept defeat. Then, just as he seems to have grasped our sympathy he yanks it all away again, vowing to hold onto the title just to piss off that wanker in the crowd. Furthermore, Ring of Honor has always had the advantage of having plenty of main event worthy matchups that don't involve the world title, which means that it can be easy for a champion to take some time off without the product suffering too much.


6) Looking back, who had the better Ring of Honor World Title reign: Bryan Danielson or Nigel McGuinness?

Michael Bauer: I have to say Bryan Danielson's was. Yes, Nigel held the title for three more months, but Danielson had as many defenses in those three less months. Nigel's reign was also stricken with injuries for about three months of time that he couldn't defend the title. Plus, Danielson's reign was the make or break time for Ring of Honor, losing Brian Kendrick, James Gibson, and CM Punk over that fateful summer.

Ari Berenstein: Ah, a tough question. McGuinness had the longer run by three months. Both had their share of epic, memorable title defenses, which rung up those oh-so important snowflakes like a blizzard in January. Both had memorable feud which defined their title reign. Both had early rough patches. Both ultimately suffered through injuries and yet toughed it out to drop the title according to booking plans.

The difference in the title run comes in the context of the timeframe and era each held the belt. Danielson picked up the ball from Gibson and Punk, who were leaving the company to go to WWE. He became the face of the company and a representative of its ideals. His championship run ran through huge strides in ROH development, including the ROH vs. CZW feud and the debut in the Grand Ballroom at Hammerstein. McGuinness became champion after ROH's PPV era already begun. Although he quickly became a focus of those shows, but not always the predominant focus (thanks to a strong tag division and The Age of the Fall storyline). He was the initial representative of the company's champion on HDNet TV, but it was only week three when the title changed hands and was recognized on the program. In much the same way that Samoa Joe brought the attention, popularity and reputation of ROH to the next level (towards coverage from mainstream wrestling press such as Pro Wrestling Illustrated and n exponentially increased DVD buying audience), Danielson's run also actually progressed ROH to the point where ROH was ready for these major projects. McGuinness (and early on, Morishima) benefited from that leap to the "next level", but it was not his representation as champion that created the next step (i.e. television deal).

Steve Cook: Nigel had a longer reign, but Dragon's meant more to the company and happened during better times for ROH from a critical perspective. Dragon had better feuds as well...his rivalries with Samoa Joe, Roderick Strong, Nigel McGuinness and Homicide gave him multiple challengers that seemed ready to take the title at any time. As vulnerable as Nigel might have been at times, he didn't really have quite the array of challengers that really seemed like a threat and created drama for ROH fans like they had when Danielson was champion.

Aaron Hubbard: I commented on Nigel's reign, and Bryan's was similar. He elevated people, made you believe he was going to lose the title, and fought through injury until the planned dropping of the title to Homicide. However, I do think that Bryan's reign was better. Danielson is simply, a better wrestler than Nigel, and he had better matches more often and against a larger group of opponents. He re-popularized the sixty-minute draw, he turned Nigel from midcard heel to main-event level babyface, and he had incredibly dramatic performances against KENTA and Homicide. Most importantly, he was the center of ROH's booking when they expanded and achieved great critical acclaim. Nigel was not "the center of ROH" during his reign, he was part of the puzzle. Bryan WAS ROH during his run.

Samuel Berman: Bryan Danielson, and it isn't really all that close. Danielson made bit players like Delirious seem like legitimate title threats. Furthermore, as I said before, Danielson's reign took place (and helped to cause) one of the hottest periods in ROH's history while McGuinness' happened in part while business began to decline. Danielson also gets bonus points for being the most interesting part of McGuinness' title reign.

Jasper Gerretsen: I'm afraid I'm going to have to go with Danielson here. His reign saw several big name challengers coming in, as well as the peak of ROH's talent exchange with Pro Wrestling NOAH (and subsequently the excellent rivalry with KENTA) and the CZW invasion. He also had extended rivalries with guys like Samoa Joe and Homicide, the latter of whom would end up finally taking the title from him. Unfortunately his reign was cut short because of his TNA commitments, but at the start of 2007 it still looked like he was set to be the man thanks to Danielson's hard work. Nigel certainly had his moments, such as his feud with Chris Hero while he was still a babyface and his feuds with Tyler Black and Jerry Lynn, but overall I think it's fair to say that Danielson had the better reign.


7) Bryan Danielson has had more memorable matches in the past seven years than anyone. Give me your favorite Bryan Danielson match(es).

Michael Bauer: There are too many to name, but for my money, his matches with Morishima in New York City were amazing. Yes, I might be biased for having front row seats to most of those matches, but that whole feud was nothing short of pure brutality.

As for matches I didn't see live, I'd have to go with Danielson vs. KENTA and Glory By Honor V and his match with Nigel from Unified.

Ari Berenstein: For a long-time ROH follower like myself that is probably a more difficult decision than "who had the better World Title run?" I have been fortunate to be there to witness both many of Danielson's most high-profile and many of his best matches throughout his tenure. Matches such as his dramatic ROH World title win against James Gibson in Long Island (Glory By Honor IV), which whipped the near 1,000 fans in attendance into frenzied reaction. There was his Best in the World tag team dream match with Joe against KENTA & Marufuji, which was a hell of a fun match to watch in addition to a historic moment for ROH and a gate-opener for many NOAH talents in the company. I was there for the matches that were amazing partly because of crowd reaction such as the one-hour draw against Samoa Joe in Edison, where fans were cheerleading advice for each man or the title retention against Sonjay Dutt as part of the ROH vs. CZW war at Death Before Dishonor IV. I witnessed the brutality of his match against Takeshi Morishima at Manhattan Mayhem II (that one almost got my nod in considering this question) and his "Give-it-All" efforts against Nigel McGuinness at shows such as Unified, Driven Seventh Anniversary Show and Rising Above 2009.

However, bar none, my favorite ROH match involving Danielson was his title defense against KENTA at Glory By Honor V Night 2. This was the first bout against each other, coming right after Danielson injured his shoulder and there were questions about his future in the company. It made the possibility of seeing a title switch at such a historic show seem far more realistic and enhanced the drama and impact of that match. This was a hell of a match, both going move for counter move and strike for counter-strike. I remember it all vividly. Again, the Morishima bout at Manhattan Mayhem II (and the rematch at Final Battle 2008) were close, but the KENTA bout remains my favorite.

Steve Cook: I will be picking from the matches I've seen of his live and in person, so my picks will be different from everybody else. His match at Final Showdown with Homicide in a steel cage featured an airplane spin with over 100 rotations, so that automatically makes any "best of" list. His most recent Dayton effort with Chris Hero was quite the match, and although Dragon came up short in the win column, it wasn't for lack of effort. I'll also mention the very first Danielson match I saw in person, at An IWA Homecoming in New Albany, Indiana where he was victorious over AJ Styles. That match was an early showcase of Danielson's heel persona that he wouldn't even use in ROH until a little over a year later.

However, the best Danielson match I've seen live has to be his match at Breakout with Tyler Black. In one night, Black became a huge star with the Dayton crowd, and with the ROH fans in other markets that purchased the DVD based on the hype from the show. Would Black have had his breakout on that night with anybody but Bryan Danielson? Highly unlikely. As good as Black was on that night, it was the greatness of Danielson that allowed him to step it up to the next level and start his path to becoming one of ROH's top stars.

Aaron Hubbard:I haven't seen his match with KENTA at Glory By Honor or his match with Paul London at the Epic Encounter. That's why there are left out. Here's my top 5 favorites.

5. ROH on HDNet, Bryan vs. Tyler Black III
4. Supercard of Honor, Bryan vs. Roderick Strong
3. Driven 2007, Bryan Danielson vs. KENTA
2. Driven 2007 AND Rising Above 2009, Bryan vs. Nigel McGuinness (TIE)
1. Manhattan Mayhem II, Bryan vs. Takeshi Morishima

Samuel Berman: There are almost too many to list here, but I'll go with some underrated classics rather than the more obvious choices. I love the match from Tag Wars 2006 when Danielson teamed with Jay Lethal against Austin Aries & Roderick Strong, one of the American Dragon's best tag matches ever. Danielson's second title defense against Strong at Vendetta remains one of the best ROH matches of all time, but is all-too-often forgotten by newer fans. Danielson's heel vs. heel defense against Alex Shelley remains the gold standard in how to book two assholes against each other. As for non-ROH contests, Danielson had a fantastic match with CIMA during PWG's 2007 DDT4 weekend, and a memorable PWG World Title win over El Generico a couple of months later. There was also Danielson's great matches with CM Punk, Chris Hero and Mike Quackenbush during various Ted Petty Invitational events.

Jasper Gerretsen: Besides all the obvious choices, I think one of the most memorable matches he was involved with was the Cage of Death match that settled the feud between ROH and CZW. In the months leading up to the match, Danielson was the aggressive yet confident heel that did everything to keep his title, but he had always been loyal to the company he represented. That all changed on that fateful night, when he turned his back on the company he had represented with so much pride as a champion, taking out Samoa Joe's knee in the Cage of Death and walking out on team ROH. Taking out Joe as a threat to his title was his ultimate heel moment, and it would eventually cost him the title. It was a hugely dramatic moment, and one that shaped the path for the entire upper card of the company all the way until Final Battle 2006, with Homicide (with the occasional help of former rival Samoa Joe) feuding with Cornette, the Briscoes and Pearce while Danielson struggled to finally put Joe behind him, which he didn't truly do until their cage match in December of 2006.


8) Likewise, Nigel McGuinness has had plenty of memorable matches in Ring of Honor. Give me your favorite Nigel McGuinness match(es).



Michael Bauer: Like I said before, his match with Danielson at Unified is one of my favorites. But from the ones I have seen live, I have to put his match against Aries at the Rising Above PPV at the top of the list, right ahead of his last successful title defense against KENTA and the Seventh Anniversary Show.

Ari Berenstein: The hits just keep on coming—another tough call. I guess I would have to go with either one of the two Pay Per View matches McGuinness had with Danielson—the Match of the Year they had in 2007 on the Driven PPV and what I still have as a Match of the Year (although that could change) for their match at Rising Above 2009 (taped in November 2008, it aired in January 2009, which means it would qualify for 2009's version of my column's Top 100 feature that I write each year).

Both men gave such effort in their matches against each other, making each match special. McGuinness really helped define himself over the last few years by wrestling against Danielson. It was those two matches that stand out in my head as being above and beyond.

Steve Cook: Oddly enough, while Dayton was Nigel's home market for many years it seemed that his best work took place outside of Dayton. Maybe he suffered from hometown jitters. Nigel was also on the IWA show I mentioned earlier…he teamed with Chris Hero against Alex Shelley & Roderick Strong in what was a pretty darn good match. Shelley & Strong won when Nigel turned against Hero for reasons that I'm sure made sense to Nigel. Each person in that match is several times better today than they were then, so I can only imagine what that match would be like now.

While Nigel's feud with Danielson put him on the map, one of my favorite feuds Nigel had in ROH was with Colt Cabana. They started out as friendly rivals, but somewhere along the line Nigel grew irritated with Colt's antics, even calling him a shithead in one memorable backstage promo. Colt knew enough of the British style to give Nigel fits in the ring, and any time they were in the ring you knew it was going to be interesting.

Nigel's best moment in Dayton was probably when he teamed with Danielson to defeat Morishima and Marifuji at United We Stand. Nigel got the pin on Morishima to end the outstanding tag team match, signifying that he was going to be the man that would probably end up beating Fat Kid for the ROH title. At least, that was the way I saw it.

Aaron Hubbard:Nigel McGuinness vs. Bryan Danielson, Driven 2007 and Rising Above 2009.

Samuel Berman: McGuinness' best matches have almost without exception taken place when opposing Bryan Danielson. I remember former 411mania and The Cool Kids' Table writer Brad Garoon noting that the most incredible thing about the McGuinness-Danielson series being that in their landmark matches in 2006 (Unified), 2007 (Driven), and 2008 (6th Anniversary Show), they were able to put on three completely different matches, each staying true to the storyline as it existed at that particular time. More than anything else, McGuinness will be remembered for his series with Danielson, the one that moved him from the midcard to the main event, and then changed him from main eventer to icon. Oh, and his first match with Tyler Black and Rising Above match with Austin Aries weren't too bad either.

Jasper Gerretsen: I think my choice here (again, besides all the obvious ones) would have to be his I Quit match against Jimmy Rave at Battle of the Icons early in 2007, during Rave's last serious push as a heel threat before his departure to TNA. At that point I had just begun watching ROH, and the whole match was just so different from anything I had ever seen before. To say that Nigel's offence in that match was consistent would be a huge understatement. He had quickly picked Rave's left arm as his target, and worked it over not just with creative submission moves but also by adding a hammerlock to pretty much every high impact move he hit. The match itself certainly was a strange one, with the most memorable moment being Jimmy Rave puking while in the crossface because of the pain, and the finish was a bit of a downer (Nigel never quitting, but Rave being awarded the match by the ref to protect Nigel's well-being), but it's one of the matches that really got me into ROH.


9) Who will win the Final Countdown Match? Bryan Danielson or Nigel McGuinness?

Michael Bauer: It has to be Danielson. With Ring of Honor, the more you meant to the company (and depending who you faced), the more likely you are to win. Punk lost and he meant tons to Ring of Honor, but Colt Cabana was thought to have a huge future. Joe won his final match, but he was facing a soon to leave Homicide. Colt Cabana won also, but he was facing Adam Pearce, who was near the top of any food chain back in 2007. Danielson is facing Nigel, also on the way out, and Nigel has meant nowhere near as much to Ring of Honor as Danielson. I definitely can't see this match staying a one on one, regular match. I am begging for two of three falls or something insane like an Iron Man Match. But I the end, the Countdown runs out and Danielson stands tall.

Ari Berenstein: Danielson is jobbing his way out of Ring of Honor, putting over the talent that is remaining behind. It seems the right thing to do to have Danielson go over McGuinness in his last match after losses to Hero, Aries, Strong, The Wolves and likely Richards in the singles match in Boston. I think a Danielson win is a proper sendoff for a man who has represented and meant so much to the fans.

I want to see Danielson win one more time in ROH. I am hoping ROH resists the temptation to do a time limit draw ala the Guerrero-Malenko finale in ECW. For one, it's been done before. Secondly, the loss won't hurt McGuinness any since he is on his way out as well. Thirdly, the fans in attendance deserve to witness a decisive finish to this finale and finally as always I believe in the happy ending for most wrestling storylines. Danielson winning is in service of that notion.

Steve Cook: 60 minute draw!

Aaron Hubbard:Even though the fans will cheer both guys, this is a babyface versus heel. The heel has bashed ROH Fans for the last month and the babyface has been putting everyone over for the last month. Both men are icons, but Bryan Danielson is a little bit bigger of an icon. But the real winners are the fans. This could very well be the Match of the Year.

Samuel Berman: There is no conventional wisdom on this one. Samoa Joe and Colt Cabana (at the time) won their last matches in ROH, while CM Punk and Paul London lost theirs. I'll go with Danielson to win so that he ultimately wins the career series between the two, but I have absolutely no confidence in that pick.

Jasper Gerretsen: With their current record standing at 4-3-2 in favor of Danielson, I wouldn't be surprised to see this one go to McGuinness to even out the record. However, at this point a 60 minute time limit seems just as likely. Either way, as cheesy as it may sound, the biggest winner will be the live crowd as we can be 100% certain that these two will leave it all on the mat.