If I Can Be Serious For A Moment 10.15.09: Serious Round Table, Episode 2
Posted by Chris Lansdell on 10.15.2009
Lansdell invites Sforcina and Bauer to talk about Bret Hart, Undertaker, The Rock and Sting.
Hey yo. Welcome back to If I Can Be Serious for a Moment, your weekly dose of intelligent wrestling discourse with me, Chris Lansdell. Having spent the last two weeks looking at Randy Orton and John Cena from different angles, we're going to take a small detour this week and bring you the second installment of the Serious Round Table. Despite only managing to round up two fellow 411 writers, I think we got a nice assortment of ideas and opinions. We'll bring those to you right after the
BANNER!
Lansdell: Welcome to the second installment of the Serious Round Table. With me again for this episode, the Encyclopaedia Oceanica of 411mania, Mathew Sforcina! Sforcina: Hello all! Lansdell: And of course, the moderator to end all moderators, our ECW recapper, Michael Bauer! Bauer: What's up?
Finally...The Rock MIGHT COME BACK to WWE!
Lansdell: Well, I figure we should start with the 95 mile an hour fast ball/bouncer: Is The Rock going to wrestle again in WWE? Lansdell: Bauer? Bauer: You have a better chance of not seeing HHH/Orton/Cena main event Raw before the draft than that happening. Sforcina: I'm not so sure that's true there Mike. Bauer: Seriously, it is definitely not going to happen. Lansdell: So you think the appearance on Smackdown, the comment about guest hosting Raw, the appearance for his uncle's promotion and the Cena rumours are all coincidence? Bauer: Cena has been talking smack about the Rock and a match for a little whole now. Sure, Rock made an appearence on Smackdown, but that was a special show. Remember, he also came on Raw to hype Trump vs. McMahon. And there was no talk about him coming back then. Lansdell: No, but this time there are a lot of factors combining. I happen to agree that he won't be back full-time, but Sforcina I sense you think there's a chance he'll be back at least once? Sforcina: Look, I think it's unlikely, but given that WWE is now PG, given Rock's new found career as Disney Leading Man, it's now ok for him to acknowledge his wrestling past. Now if the stars align just so and a Disney movie is coming out and he has a break of a month or two before a WM, it's now a very outside chance that's plausable. I don't think it WILL, but it's possible. Unless there's a prolonged SAG strike, in which case all bets are off. Lansdell: That's my thinking. Vince smells money, and there's no doubt Cena-Rock would be the biggest match since Hogan-Andre. The thing is, will The Rock go backwards? Is the potential to make millions worth the risk, however minor? It's an intriguing concept. So Bauer, can you see him hosting Raw? Bauer: I can see him hosting Raw to promote whatever he wants. That seems like a no brainer. But if he does, I can't see him stepping in the ring like Trish did. Lansdell: I would think that's unlikely too, even Vince doesn't hate money that much. BUT...if he does host, what happens with Cena? Does that suggest that he might lose to Orton at Bragging Rights, Sforcina? Sforcina: If anything it makes it more likely Cena wins. The two need to have a face to face confrontation at some point long before the WM the match is held at, so that they have stock footage of the two face to face on which to sell it. Bauer: I tend to agree with Matt there. Rock coming on the show that soon can possibly set up Cena/Rock and still leave plenty of time for Cena to drop the title again. Plus, let's not forget. If Cena doesn't win the title, he goes to Smackdown and can't interact with the Raw guest host. Sforcina: What will probably happen, planned match or not, Rock will guest host on the first Raw of 2010, and he'll book a main event of say Orton/Jericho/Show V Cena/DX and then help clear the ring at the end of the night, leaving Raw to end on him and Cena standing face to face. Bauer: Ugh, not the match I want to see when 2010 starts. Sforcina: Well, I don't think Legacy will still be around, and Rock needs to beat off some bad guys. Lansdell: Hilarious double entendre aside, I'm going the opposite way. I figure that moving Cena to the Blue Brand not only freshens both main event scenes, it also moves him away from Rock in the event that it's not Mania THIS year for that match. Which, with Taker likely to retire, is probably a good idea. Sforcina: Then why did you move over Batista? Lansdell: To turn heel. Only Cena has been a face longer. Sforcina: Uh, Taker might disagree with you there. Bauer: So Raw's main event becomes HHH, Michaels, Orton, and whoever the WWE expects us to back? Lansdell: MVP, Henry, Swagger...and Taker has been heel between 2005 and now, hasn't he? Sforcina: Well, maybe they'll pull a fast one and have Cena win the tag belts his first night on SD so he can come back to both shows. Bauer: Mark Henry should be nowhere near a main event. Look what happened at the Royal Rumble. Sforcina: Heel Mark Henry should be nowhere near a main event. Face Mark Henry is allowed to skirt with it. Bauer: True, but you need a heel. Which makes Swagger, which I can't buy either. Sforcina: And Taker's a good guy since that brief flirtation with heeldom with Heyman.
Dead Man Walking...Off Into The Sunset
Lansdell: If we can swing back to Taker for a moment...how much will his eventual retirement hurt or help WWE? Bauer: It has to help the WWE. Do you think Punk would ever have had his momentum killed if Taker wasn't around to never lose clean? Sforcina: But with Taker gone you lose a major star, a lot of merch, and one of the bigger WM drawcards you have. Lansdell: Does Taker really still shift merch? I mean is he anywhere near Cena, Rey, DX? Bauer: Undertaker only has his WM streak though. If that is gone, he has nothing to still compete for. And last time I checked, Jeff Hardy still sells like hotcakes, so no, they don't lose his merch. Sforcina: I was under the impression that Taker moves a solid amount, albeit not the Cena/Jeff level. But I agree that Taker should be winding down, and that the Punk thing was stupid, but I think losing him will cause a change in the WWE. Maybe for the better, maybe for the worse. Bauer: Actually, a quick look at he Top 20 items has no merchandise of the Dead Man. Lansdell: I'm not a fan of the "buried" talk around HHH and Taker and their treatment of younger or newer talent, but with him gone does the young talent have an easier time, or a harder one? He doesn't lose clean to many, but he DOES put people over while beating them. Bauer: Well, not every person looks that good when losing like Legacy did with DX. I don't think Punk was helped at all by losing in 10 minutes to the Taker in the opening match of Hell in a Cell. Overall, I would think it would be easier for the next wave of talent after the current "future" of the WWE is on top. Sforcina: Of course, it's not just in front of the camera that will change. Unless he takes an Agent's postition, Taker's retirement is going to TOTALLY change the dynamics of the WWE backstage enviroment. It'll be interesting to see what happens then. Lansdell: Very true. There is no doubt though that Taker is one of the most visible WWE stars. If you talk to someone who was a fan 10n years ago, they tend to say "Oh I used to watch that, does Undertaker/Rock/Stone Cold still wrestle?" With him gone, they lose that last link to their glory days. Sforcina: And unless the guy who beats him is another character driven-monster, you'll lose any chance of hooking people to see the guy who beat Taker. If, say Ted DiBiase retires Taker, I think most casual fans will think that's silly. That guy did it? Bauer: Honestly, more people have asked me about Brock Lesnar's WWE experience because of UFC. And these were WWE fans back in the day. Sforcina: Ah, UFC. The Modern Day Pro Wrestling. Lansdell: Is this Taker's last hurrah? Bauer: I have to believe it is, but I think he loses the title before his one last Wrestlemania. Sforcina: This is probably his last run as a full time compeditor. I think WM26 will end his run, but WM27 will be his final match. 20 years later and such. Lansdell: On that note, does Taker retain at Bragging Rights, and if not who wins? Sforcina: Punk pins Rey a second before Batista pins Taker, giving Punk his title back and giving Batista a reason to destroy Rey, assuming he's turning heel. Lansdell: Bauer? Bauer: This is tricky, because you have to think about the Smackdown vs Raw main event. I think CM Punk takes back the title and maybe opens up a feud with him and Mysterio. Lansdell: OK, to finish off the Taker topic...let's assume that Sforcina is right, and that Taker's last match as a regular competitor is at WM 26, and he returns for a goodbye at 27. Who does he face each time, and does anyone beat him? Sforcina: 26 he'd face someone like Dolph Ziggler or Miz, a mid-card heel he can defeat on the undercard. He is then attacked and 'retired' by some slimy heel (like, say, Jericho), who spends a year crowing over it and then fights Taker at 27 and I don't know who would win that one. Lansdell: And Bauer? Bauer: I think that the last match he has will be the one loses. So I say he wins at Wrestlemania 26, loses at 27. Lansdell: Against? Bauer: I hoenstly can't imagine, thinking of current storylines. Probably someone more established than Mat has in mind or maybe some memeber of Legacy wins this year. I'd have to say he loses to someone not as established. Yes, I'm vague, but only because I don't have an hour to think it over. Sforcina: I just don't see the WWE risk putting a young guy over for the Streak only for him to pull a Lesnar. Bauer: Well, I have to take he 2 year scenario here. In my mind, he loses this year to CM Punk. Lansdell: I'm torn. I've always thought his last match should be against Kane, but if we're going off the WM27 assumption, I don't like that. I want to see Taker-Cena this year, if for no other reason than it would drive the internet beserk. ESPECIALLY if it leaks that it's his last match. As for the comeback...it has to be someone who can cut promos that will tempt him back. Someone with history. Randy Orton. Sforcina: I can see Orton being The Guy. Lansdell: Especially if he punts Taker at some point. Sforcina: A proper one, not a Cena Special.
The Tail End For Sting?
Lansdell: Moving to TNA briefly...is Sting going to retire after Bound for Glory? Sforcina: I want to say yes, but since Russo is booking, I expect Sting to win here then lose a double or nothing match at the next PPV, Sting's Title And Career V AJ's Career and Video Game Collection. Bauer: It sure looks like that is what they are setting up. Sting is one of those guys I never thought would have come back before, but sure enough he did. Sting needs to step aside sooner or later and with the recent pushing of people like Styles and Red, I think TNA and Sting are finally realizing it. Lansdell: Sting has a streak of winning the title at Bound for Glory, and is facing one of the hottest "young" names in the business this year. Doesn't this feel a bit like Undertaker to you Bauer? Bauer: It does, but unlike the Undertaker, Sting knows when to put people over. That has always been the biggest difference between the two. Sting doesn't bury people, no pun intended. Lansdell: What I was really getting at with the first question was, will he retire, or go to WWE for a year? Bauer: There is no way Sting goes to the WWE. Even the Stinger said it himself. You have a better chance of The Rock returning. Lansdell: Wasn't that before PG? Sforcina: The closest you'll get is a Bret Hart style HOF Induction/DVD. Lansdell: So you think he'd accept a place in the HOF, and not pull a Sammartino? Sforcina: He might. It wouldn't be for a couple of years, but unlike Bruno I think Sting cares about his fans enough to agree to work on a DVD, and a HOF induction would go along with that. Bauer: I agree. Sting has enough respect for the business to do this. And considering there is really no independent place that has a Hall of Fame, this is the most logical result. Lansdell: So who inducts him? Sforcina: Flair. Bauer: Flair by a mile. Sforcina: Given Warrior's insane and Luger's not suitable. Bauer: Nobody else should even be in the conversation. Those two fought the last match in WCW history. Sting has never had as great of a rival as Flair. Lansdell: Excellent, we all agree. Sforcina: Good to see.
Ranting Over Rating
Lansdell: Now, the penultimate topic. Is WWE's PG rating really a big deal, or should the quality of the content be the issue? Bauer: I think the PG is great for bringing in the younger fans, but for old school people like me, I haven't been liking it as much. The really old school might not like it, but that's due to too much flipping. Lansdell: But can they put on a quality show without being risqué? Sforcina: The rating is a symptom of the disease, albeit a clear, obvious one. I think most people understand the idea that WWE is trying to bring in the kids again, like they did in the 80's and early 90's, so that when they become cynical teenagers in a few years we can redo Attitude. But you can do that without moving the belt around, or locking in PPV ideas ad such. And sure they can put on a good show without being risque. You just have to think like a booker, not like a Hollywood writer. Bauer: I think the match quality has been better than average when comparing it to other years, but the risque business is what made the WWE larger than life. Lansdell: And that, to me, is the crux of the issue. The way they are working now, I don't think it would be good with an R rating. I've long held the belief that you do NOT have to sacrifice good wrestling to be a sports entertainment show, and WWE has rarely followed that philosophy. Sforcina: Or vice versa, for that matter. Bauer: Yes, but you don't need to be PG to entertain. Lansdell: You make an excellen t point though Bauer. WWE got big when it shocked people, and it's given up on that. Sforcina: Because you eventually run out of shock tactics. Bauer: Not if you re-fresh the scene with new talent. Sforcina: At some point people stop getting shocked, at which point you either go overboard trying to top yourself or pull back for a while. Lansdell: Are the fans using the ratings change as a scapegoat? Sforcina: Some are. A lot of fans I think are smart enough to realise that the rating isn't the real issue, but sure, some are scapegoating it. Bauer: The ratings are the worst indicator ever to determine success. I don't remember who said it, but there are more people watching television now than during the height of the Monday Night War. So the ratings being lower now can equal the same number of people. Lansdell: This is very true. When Impact has a good show, the rating is often low because the show before was crap and nobody wants to watch the next week. It takes a week for a good show to affect ratings. Sforcina: Well, wrestling ratings overall, across the entire run of TV history, have been fairly constant as a percentage. It's just no-one tried them in prime time before the MNW, at which point it became abnoramlly high. And yet, ratings is what TNA is chasing, not PPV buys or merch sales or anything. Lansdell: Fans need to understand that the Monday Night Wars period was an anomaly, not the norm. Bauer: And the other thing is that the WWE can't attempt to match ratings with Monday Night Football. Especially not with every fan eatching Green Bay vs. Minnesota. And especially not tonight with New York being on ESPN. Sforcina: And maybe remembering that WWE is global now, so maybe if you stop worrying about the ratings for one country and focus on just making the show great, but that's a pipe dream... Lansdell: Plus internet streams, PVRs, watching with friends...all these hurt ratings. You'll never again see wrestling break a 5 in my lifetime, Bauer: Ah yes, forgot about the DVR taping.
Lansdell: So, imagine you own TNA. What can you do to make it competitive? Sforcina: Hire a big guy to stand behind Russo with a big stick and tell him to hit Russo if Russo comes up with anything stupid. Bauer: Is there a maximum to the number of things I can do? Lansdell: Let's say three things. Realistic things, not "Hire HHH, Cena and HBK" Sforcina: Seriously, the main thing would be to shift the focus of the company into selling PPVs. Make the company revolve around them, not the TV show. And that, hopefully, would lead to a knock on effect that would help the entire company. Bauer: First, fire Russo and every loyalist he has, allowing me to bring back Cornette. Second, I would actually maintain the pushes for Styles, Joe, Red, Daniels, etc... And lastly, I would stop hiring everyone the WWE lets go.
The only thing I'll add on is that I liked the midcard shuffle by letting people go to bring in different guys. Now, they ned to do that with Nash and company going away. Lansdell: Step 1: Change the philosophy. If you are going to push the TV show, stop giving away big matches and gimmick matches with no promotion or build. Step 2: If you must have older guys, make them older guys who aren't useless and allergic to putting people over. Bauer: cough::Nash::cough Lansdell: Step 3: Move opposite SmackDown. Bauer: Seriously? You would take thme off of Thursday nights why? Sforcina: Yeah, Step 3 sounds kinda crazy to me. Lansdell: Because they are on a network with wider reach, and by putting them in direct competition with WWE they can build some hype, stimulate some competition and be a TRUE alternative. Going against Raw is Suicide, and going against ECW proves nothing. An ad campaign showcasing what TNA has that WWE doesn't would turn some heads Bauer: Yeah, but people might actually skip ECW to watch Impact. I wouldn't skip Smackdown, if I was ever home, to watch TNA. Lansdell: They already come very close to the ECW rating though. Sforcina: Of course, they're profitable now, so they won't change a thing. Bauer: What exactly does TNA have that WWE doesn't? Besides an actual good Women's Division and the awesome combo of Styles and Joe. Sforcina: Tara. Lansdell: You know what got me into TNA? They ran a PPV for a penny showcasing the best of TNA. The athleticism, the quality wrestling, the focus on tag teams. It was aimed at the things that WWE has not done well in years. They could do something similar again, and it would attract some disillusioned people IF they promoted it. Bauer: Sure, so could Ring of Honor, but those same people don't care that Ring of Honor is on television, it's not the WWE. Sforcina: Would you do this on PPV or would you use one of the specials they have with Spike? Lansdell: Either way works. And the comparison with RoH is not really a fair one, since most people have Spike in their homes. The point is that people are switching off WWE and NOT switching on to TNA. THOSE are the fans they should be chasing. Sforcina: I thought those fans were meant to be switching to UFC? Bauer: I think the problem is that TNA's Television isn't much better than WWE's most weeks. Lansdell: The way I see it, TNA's rating has not changed significantly no matter what they've tried. Moving to Friday won't hurt them in all likelihood, but it MIGHT help them if they market it right. What do they have to lose? Sforcina: The percentage of their fans that are WWE and TNA fans. Bauer: Which was the point I was making earlier. Lansdell: You may well be right, which is probably why I'm not the CEO of a major company.
How Can You Bring Back A Broken Hart?
OK, to the final question then...is Bret Hart coming back? Sforcina: To WWE? Perhaps. To TV? No. Bauer: To do what? He can't wrestle anymore and I don't think he is really suited to be an on-air authority type person. Sforcina: Maybe he'll take the Agent's job he was suppost to transition to after 3 years. Lansdell: OK, three differing opinions then. Tremendous. I think he'll do a short stint on air, obviously on SmackDown, and stay well away from HBK because he's still sulking. And I think it will be awful. Sforcina: Well, hope DX wins the Tag titles then, then all he'll have left is ECW. Bauer: Bret's skill was always in his ring work and with that gone, I agree with you. Lansdell: Wouldn't it be a terrible waste to bring in Bret Hart and never put him on air though? He may not have been the draw that some of his contemporaries are/were, but he's still a name Sforcina: A name that most fans now equate to Montreal and that's it. The best thing to do? Hire him to fly around the world as a WWE Ambasador. Bauer: I can't see Bret coming back to work for Vince if he wasn't doing something significant. Lansdell: Bauer, can you see him in a trainer role? Bauer: A trainer role I could definitely see. Bret has more knowledge than most ever would hope to attain. Sforcina: If they ever set up that WWE Global Domination plan, after Vince dies, Bret would be a great choice to go around and set each training camp up. Lansdell: Do you think he will ever grow up and work with Shawn in any way? Sforcina: God no. Bauer: I was recently at an autograph signing with him and he still refuses to sign the double pack of him and Shawn. Granted, it says Montreal Screwjob on it. Lansdell: Having said that, would you have thought that he would ever even consider it if you had been asked this last year? Sforcina: I see your point, and while it's still a snowball's chance in hell, at least this year the snowball has a little baseball cap on. Lansdell: Bauer? Bauer: I'm not sure. Bret supposedly doesn't like many people, but alot of it seems to be smoke and mirrors. Shawn is a different story though. I just can't see them ever being on the same page. Sforcina: Although I'm sure there will now be 50 comments in this about how Montreal is a work.
Wish Me Love A Wishing Well
Lansdell: OK, last question: What's one thing that will never happen in pro wrestling that you would LOVE to see? Sforcina: Tara: TNA World Champion. Bauer: How did I see that coming? Lansdell: I call shenanigans, Sforcina. Russo is booking. It could happen. Sforcina: Curses! All right... Lansdell: Anyone? Bauer: I'm going to say Colt Cabana and CM Punk teaming up again. Sforcina: WWE hires Josh Whedon, Diablo Cody and Bruce Campbell to write Raw, SD and ECW respectivly. Lansdell: I'm a little easier to please. I want to see CM Punk beat HHH at Mania for the title...with a Pepsi Plunge. Bauer: Hell, HHH has put over Punk before. Lansdell: Sure, but that would be putting him over on a whole new level Sforcina: With a move Punk doesn't use anymore since he wants to continue walking. Lansdell: As a one-off, for a match of that caliber? He'd do it. That. or Savage coming down to the ring to guest host Raw with Stephanie on his arm Bauer: Has he future guest host for November 2 been passing you anything? Sforcina: Now THAT I'd like to see. Lansdell: On that note, I'd like to thank my guests this week for their ever-insightful contributions Sforcina: You're quite welcome. Bauer: Anytime Chris. Now back to coming up with mind numbing Top 5 topics.
Well that's the column folks. I had hoped to include a reader on this Round Table, but by the time I got a reply on Twitter we were halfway through. Want a chance to appear in a future Serious Round Table, or any other Lansdell column? Click the link above to follow me on Twitter! Next week I'm working on wrestling and social media. Stay Cool, Rock Hard.
Goldberg/Austin, Rock/Hogan, and a WarGames type nWo/DX were all MUCH bigger moneymaking type dream matches than Cena/Rock.
Who really wants to see Cena/Rock? Cena is nowhere near a guy like Rock, Goldberg, Austin, or Hogan in terms of being a massive name.
Cena/Orton is the dream match for Cena and it has happened a billion times.
Posted By: miles (Guest) on October 14, 2009 at 11:23 PM
I lol'd at Savage coming out to guest host wrong with Stephaie at his arm, haha.
Posted By: Johnny (Guest) on October 14, 2009 at 11:29 PM
I want to see CM Punk beat HHH at Mania for the title...with a Pepsi Plunge.
That would be legendary.
Posted By: Steve (Guest) on October 14, 2009 at 11:48 PM
"And lastly, I would stop hiring everyone the WWE lets go."
Really Bauer? First of all, they don't pick up EVERYONE WWE lets go, and two, why would they quit picking up certain WWE castoffs? That is how WWE got over WCW! Picking up WCW castoffs like HHH, Austin, Foley, and the Undertaker. So why would TNA not pick up some WWE rejects? Oh, and most of who you call WWE-throw aways prolly would have never went to WWE if WCW hadn't have closed down(Booker T, Steiner, Nash, all decidedly more WCW than WWE)
PS, the Idiot who said Realistic things, not "Hire HHH, Cena and HBK"....Why would they do that if they could? They already get flack for having "Old guys" yet, for some reason, WWE gets a free pass to keep HHH, HBK and the Undertaker? Plus 90% of the wrestling world hates Cena so how would that help? You know what I think is wrong with TNA? Its stupid columnists like you ripping it apart because it ISN'T WWE and it ISN'T run by Vince McMahon. So do us all a favor and SHUT THE HELL UP!
Posted By: JWestmoreland (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 12:29 AM
WWE never was prepared to lose The Rock & Austin, There is nothing that can replace any of those guys on air time. Mr.Kennedy as being groomed but didn't have what it took. The only thing that the crowd cares for right now is 'Taker and DX (as a crew or individually). So when 'Taker is done that will another big hole, right next to the ones Rock and Austin left, that can't be filled.
Posted By: TheR (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 12:46 AM
If you guys would actually read Hart's book or read between the lines on how everyone else talks about HBK and Bret Hart (outside of the book/in other media/interviews/etc.), you'd see that it isn't Hart that "needs to get over" anything, it's the WWE and these other guys that are clearly in the wrong and need to stop rehashing the damn thing.
Learning from past experience and acting accordingly makes you a wise person. Making stupid mistakes over and over again and trusting the wrong people shows you are an idiot and a pushover. Say what you will about Bret Hart, but he's definitely an intelligent guy and he's not a pushover.
Hart has moved on. At the end of the book he says he even forgives Vince for his part, and he forgave Hebner very quickly for his role in everything as well, even though Hebner just stabbed him right in the back, after swearing on his children or something that he wouldn't.
HHH and HBK are both cancers that love driving the business into the ground to feed their own egos. Business was absolutely terrible with HBK as champ, and Bret certainly drew better than he did. You have to look at the periods around whoever is the champion to figure out how good the drawing is, if it's about the same then you know they did similar to others, if it's a lot lower or a lot higher that also paints the picture. You also have to look at how people are booked: are they booked as a strong champion or as a joke, at the expense for someone else?
HBK and HHH are both responsible for MASSIVE drops. Obviously Hogan, Austin and The Rock are all guys that drew big time. Hart is not the draw of those "big 3" but he is certainly ahead of HBK and HHH, so he's a pretty solid draw. Hart has definite name brand value OUTSIDE of wrestling fans. I doubt anybody else knows who the hell HBK is. Hart's been on the Simpsons and appears on the Malcolm in the Middle intro.
Posted By: Guest#3652 (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 12:48 AM
Savage coming down to the ring to guest host Raw with Stephanie on his arm.
^ This. Is. What. I. Want. Probably more than anything.
Posted By: Brad (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 12:49 AM
I think iff Brett came back it would be cool as fuck if he ran the concession booth. it would be cool becuz when the young taletn would come up fer a hot dog or a beer or somethin, then maybe Brett could give them some advice from his long years on the circuit. If I went to a show I would buy a hot dog from him for sure. I would sell him a sack 2. me and Brett the Hot Dog Vendor gettin wasted out by the dumpsters. how fuckin cool would that be
Posted By: groot (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 01:03 AM
"Sforcina: Seriously, the main thing would be to shift the focus of the company into selling PPVs. Make the company revolve around them, not the TV show. And that, hopefully, would lead to a knock on effect that would help the entire company."
The problem there is that you are relying on an income stream which is hugely cut by piracy. People seem increasingly reluctant to pay their $30-odd each month, and if the TV show's content is restricted in favour of PPV, then the relatively small viewership base will be even more likely to tune into something else.
"Bauer: First, fire Russo and every loyalist he has, allowing me to bring back Cornette. Second, I would actually maintain the pushes for Styles, Joe, Red, Daniels, etc... And lastly, I would stop hiring everyone the WWE lets go."
Russo tends to be responsible for the push for AJ and co. Look at how big AJ was promoted in the early TNA days, and see how he won the title just after Russo took charge again. The reported reason Cornette was let go was for refusing to go along with the push for a TNA original.
Posted By: Donners (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 01:04 AM
Re: Guest#3652
The only reason Bret was a bigger draw then Shawn was because they waited to long to give the belt to Shawn. He should've defeated Diesel at WM 11 but instead he lost at Shawn lost all his momentum and by the time WM 12 came around the fans didn't care at that point. It's not like when Bret came back in late 1996 he was drawing huge numbers anyway actually he was drawing less then Shawn. HBK is the better wrestler and better talker of the two so I have no doubt in my mind he would've been a bigger star if the circumstances had've been different.
Posted By: giver123 (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 02:31 AM
lol @ JWestmoreland & Guest#3652
Posted By: Cortez (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 03:16 AM
Rock would wrestle again, considering they gave Mayweather how much, I am sure they can budget in the Rock.
Undertaker won't retire... he will still be on WWE television as long as he chooses to be. Awesome character and backstage presence.
With WWE going PG... Sting COME ON DOWN! He was against the angles and content so now he has no reason to be unhappy, plus the WWE can put big money his way considering Sting v HBK, Sting V Taker, Sting V Edge would be HUGE DRAWS. Although PG will take away from people Like Edge and others who use stronger tones.
Considering Bret Hart's eye for talent, and his knowledge of the Wrestling aspect he would make a GREAT road agent. Vince would sit him and HBK down and clear the air and I am sure Bret would do what's best for the business and himself (help the youth and make money), however he was very smart with his funds and doesn't need to do it or anything.
Posted By: Bobbay (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 03:58 AM
"Sforcina: At some point people stop getting shocked, at which point you either go overboard trying to top yourself or pull back for a while."
Well put.
Posted By: Ryushinku (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 04:07 AM
Now I got "Wishing Well" stuck in my head.
Posted By: The Great Capt. Smooth (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 05:50 AM
I don't usually make a comment on these articles but that comment about Bret Hart needing to grow up really pissed me off.
Bret Hart is a man who stood by his principles no matter what, he felt wronged and he stood by that. He forgave Earl Hebner casue he had no choice, he forgave Vince McMahon becasue although he didn't agree with it and knew in his own mind he wouldn't take the title to Bischoff he understood Vince's position. But Shawn? Why would he forgive him? Shawn and Hunter's only reason for taking part in Montreal is becasue they are assholes and hated Bret. Shawn as good as is he is is a crybaby and a tit. He claims to be a born again christian but yet doesn't have the stones to own up to his own wrongdoing and apologise. Hell even reading Shawn's book you can tell what a crybaby waste of space the man really is and that's been edited in his favour! Shawn may be a great entertainer infact one of the greatest but he'll also go down as one of the whiniest, political, brown nosing tits in wrestling history. Bret Hart is, was and always be more man than Shawn could ever dream of
Posted By: MoMoney1985 (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 06:01 AM
I think iff Brett came back it would be cool as fuck if he ran the concession booth. it would be cool becuz when the young taletn would come up fer a hot dog or a beer or somethin, then maybe Brett could give them some advice from his long years on the circuit. If I went to a show I would buy a hot dog from him for sure. I would sell him a sack 2. me and Brett the Hot Dog Vendor gettin wasted out by the dumpsters. how fuckin cool would that be
Posted By: groot (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 01:03 AM
Groot, you're the man!
Posted By: Angry Bear (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 08:37 AM
""Sforcina: Seriously, the main thing would be to shift the focus of the company into selling PPVs. Make the company revolve around them, not the TV show. And that, hopefully, would lead to a knock on effect that would help the entire company."
The problem there is that you are relying on an income stream which is hugely cut by piracy. People seem increasingly reluctant to pay their $30-odd each month, and if the TV show's content is restricted in favour of PPV, then the relatively small viewership base will be even more likely to tune into something else.
Posted By: Donners (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 01:04 AM"
I call bullshit on this. Does piracy also affect live attendence at shows or tv ratings? If piracy is so rampent, how come UFC has huge buy rates? And how do you measure piracy? It's just like the video game publishers. Make a shitty product that doesn't sell and then not take any responsibility for the crap by blaming people stealing it.
Posted By: mogamer (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 08:42 AM
There is no bigger Bret Hart fan than me, but you can't have "the best there will ever be " back without having some kind of fued with DX. He has to be involved someway. How is this for a thought? Turn HBK heal, join forces with Bret is a WWE version of MEM. I know it's just a pipe dream, but still think of the possibilities. The two biggest stars of the mid 90's, the two biggest rivals of all time joining forces to take on and destroy all, eventually putting someone over(not Cena, he's a fag). A young man can dream can't he?
Posted By: awsome69 (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 09:16 AM
"Lansdell: You may well be right, which is probably why I'm not the CEO of a major company. "
Yes, yes it is.
Posted By: z (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 09:37 AM
Lansdell: This is very true. When Impact has a good show, the rating is often low because the show before was crap and nobody wants to watch the next week. It takes a week for a good show to affect ratings.
A regular comment that I see is "how could the ratings go up when the show was so bad." Well - it's because you really don't know if a show is good or bad until the show is completed, and by then, that show's ratings are set.
If you want to project out ratings for a show, there are 3 primary things you have to factor in.
1. What is the competition that week. With MNF in competition with Raw, the matchups on MNF definitely impact Raw's ratings.
2. What is the set up for a particular show? Is this the go home show before a PPV, or first show since the PPV? What are the announced matches or features (i.e. guest host)? Bob Barker would pop ratings, but Al Sharpton will not. Main event featuring Undertaker vs. Jericho would pop ratings, but a match of Orton and Legacy vs. DX and Cena will not.
3. Momentum. Smackdown has momentum because they constantly put on good shows. Raw is losing momentum because their shows have been poor. When you put on good shows, you will retain viewers from the previous week. Bad shows - you lose viewers.
Give you an example based on my viewing habits. I usually watch Raw. When there is something else on (say a good game on ESPN), I'll watch Raw and flip over to ESPN to get my updates. But lately, ESPN (MNF) becomes my primary program, and I will flip over to Raw to see if something interesting happening.
And here's another problem with Raw. Let's say that I flip over and see a match between Kofi and the Miz. Cool - they have good matches and I really don't know who is going to win. But then, 2 minutes later, the match is over. Well - I've got no reason to stay here because I know that another DX skit is coming. So I go back to ESPN. But say Kofi and Miz have a 10-12 minute match. I'm now invested in Raw and it's more likely that I will stay around afterwards because it appears that Raw might be delivering a product that week that I'm interested in seeing. The 4 minute matches allow channel flippers to leave Raw quickly. 10-12 minute matches capture the flippers.
Man - work is slow today - usually I can't ramble on like this without a phone call or an e-mail popping up. Looks like another 75 minute lunch is going to happen today.
Posted By: BobbyC (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 11:03 AM
I tried to read this. I really did. I got a 1/3 of the way through the Rock talk, and started the Undertaker bit, but then I lost it. Lansdell, I know you really like this AIM conversation style column thing, but it really sucks. I think your column is really good when it's you talking about a topic. But all of this stuff mixed in makes it unreadable.
Posted By: Guest#8358 (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 11:44 AM
WWE cant let Cena/Rock happen because there is NO WAY they could keep the fans behind Cena at all. They might tag up or Rock might make a save for Cena, but never against eachother.
Posted By: Jason (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 12:00 PM
One thing that will never happen but would be awesome? That's the easiest wrestling question ever: Hogan in his prime jobbing clean to Savage in his prime.
Posted By: M:-X (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 03:05 PM
Not sure I'd want to see Rock wrestle again. He used to be a power-based wrestler and it looks like he's dropped about 30lbs of muscle since retiring.
As for the Taker, I think it's time for him to pass the torch. He could become part of a tag team or lead a stable where he's essentially the mouthpiece.
Is it a sure thing the Hitman couldn't wrestle again? They said the same thing about HBK's injury years ago. A low-impact match might be do-able. But I'm not sure it would be very entertaining.
Posted By: Guest#5347 (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 03:55 PM
Sting v HBK @ Wrestlemania would be ok
Posted By: Guest#7639 (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 04:50 PM
Way to improve TNA?
Simple.Stop writing 90's-early 2000's tv style and focus on the current trends while building to whatever makes you the most cash.
Some people have the idea that evrything has to build to ppv in the N.American market.
Bullshit.
N.American ppv is the largest individual market and frankly it's largely sewn-up and highly competitive for a young business.
There are far better growth areas for a young company with less competition that you can make equal amounts of profit from with less risk.
To give you a real world example.
Fedor has been offered about half the money he can earn from the global economy to fight in UFC, as for UFC to offer more would fuck up the UFC pay-structure and company control of rights.
Not surprisingly, he said "Fuck Off" as he earns more elsewhere and has more control,but people can't understand as he's turning down the biggest mrket.
Same with TNA.
Everyone says they should try to build to ppv in the N.American market as it's the largest out there.
Bullshit.
There's far less risk, more profit and better structure long term in building a european fan-base and getting chinese and indian tv exposure and then if you couple that with the mexican market ( and the Lashley/Joe spot and Hernandez push shows they ain't dumb to that) you have enough profit, along with the obvious pick up of good talent that are pissed at being midcarders in the 'E (as NO-ONE says demote me) to make it big.
Seriously, I find some of the analysis here juvenile, as it concentrates only on what the current market leader is doing and the largest market and how to approach that rather than what is good for business.
TNA now does 2 tours a year in the U.K with attendences around the 5k mark for each of the week long tours and rivals wwe in the viewing figures.
Replicate that in important markets like China, India and at a push Mexico and then if you can get impact up to half of the raw audience it would be worth looking at ppv market.
People are largely wrong about about what TNA should be doing. As to attack the market leader in the area they do best comparatively and follow their model is dumb.
Posted By: Guest#5962 (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 05:08 PM
Very satisfying to see three intelligent people dissect the issues of the business without being too mark-y or smark-y.
Great column. Thumbs up.
Posted By: Zipper (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 07:11 PM
"Really Bauer? First of all, they don't pick up EVERYONE WWE lets go, and two, why would they quit picking up certain WWE castoffs? That is how WWE got over WCW! Picking up WCW castoffs like HHH, Austin, Foley, and the Undertaker. So why would TNA not pick up some WWE rejects? Oh, and most of who you call WWE-throw aways prolly would have never went to WWE if WCW hadn't have closed down(Booker T, Steiner, Nash, all decidedly more WCW than WWE)
PS, the Idiot who said Realistic things, not "Hire HHH, Cena and HBK"....Why would they do that if they could? They already get flack for having "Old guys" yet, for some reason, WWE gets a free pass to keep HHH, HBK and the Undertaker? Plus 90% of the wrestling world hates Cena so how would that help? You know what I think is wrong with TNA? Its stupid columnists like you ripping it apart because it ISN'T WWE and it ISN'T run by Vince McMahon. So do us all a favor and SHUT THE HELL UP!"
You Mad?
Posted By: Camron (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 10:06 PM
My thoughts......
1.) The possibility of The Rock getting back in the ring is very small. If I had to put a percentage on it I'd say 10%. Hosting Raw? Absolutley...him hosting the first Raw of 2010 sounds like a good deal to me. As for him getting back in the ring, realistically we'll know more about that possibility after he hosts Raw.
2.) As it pertains to The Deadman, this is wrestling and nobody retires. Especially such a huge Wrestlemania drawcard like Undertaker. The fact that so much of him is wrapped up in the big show every gives him a tailor one night ring action per year with a few appearances in and around for him to look scary. He certainly may semi-retire after XXVI but he won't go away for good for another 10 years. I'd be shocked if that happend. Undertaker facing an up-and-comming star makes no sense and isnt believeable. He's only going to face proven big name draws because fans to a reason to believe that his streak may end. This only brings me 5 names, 2 being strong possibilities one just possible and the other 2 stretches (at this point).
The 2 strong names out there are Cena and Jericho. Of all the names mentioned Cena is most likely to beat the streak (although I dont think anyone will). A possibile opponent would be HBK, they tore the house down at XXV so people would knock down doors to see it again. Would it be as good as their last encounter? With 'Taker's condition, probably not but it would still be another classic that's for sure. A far reach would be Triple H because well...he's Triple H. The 5th and final name out there I've been yelling for for the last year is HULK HOGAN. That would be huge money and if all sides are willing to do business it probably draws more money than any other match up other than Cena.
3.) We won't really know if Sting will retire at BFG but what we do know is that he won't wrestle for Vince but that he'll contribute to a DVD and accept the HOF that's for certain.
4.) Sforcina....the WWE isn't gearing their product towards kids so that when they grow up they can "redo" Attitdue. Do you honestly think that Vince and the rest of the brain trust is really sitting in a big meeting saying "Hey! Let's turn our product PG and attract younger fans so that they will grow up and hate the product then we can "redo" the Attitude Era and make it all edgy, great idea!" Come on fucking think you moron. They're directing their product towards kid sbecause kids parents have MONEY and and the ones that will be making the ultimate decision buy their kids the t-shirts and video games and take them to WWE events just to make them happy. Also it helps the WWE's rep when they tell the world they are a family oriented TV show that mom and dad can watch with their kids...and actually mean it.
Posted By: Justin (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 11:01 PM
More thoughts....
5.) How do I make TNA competitive....Fire Russo, hire Heyman to book my TV cuz he knows what he's doing. I would get rid of all the dead weight (old guys) and I would look for a financial partner to back me that has marketing savvy so that product can actually reach people. I would also use my TV to sell my PPV's hard. Possibly cutting back to 8-10 PPV's a year would be a bad thought either. Competing with Smackdown is a good idea also...not bad.
6.) Bret will not get in the ring again so toss that out the window along with "Stunning". Will he be on TV full time? It's possible again not likely. Him working as a trainer/agent fits him best therefore making it the most likely scenario. Hosting Raw sounds very possible as well since it's only a one shot deal.
PEACE
Posted By: Justin pt 2 (Guest) on October 15, 2009 at 11:07 PM
Guest#3652
The only reason Bret was a bigger draw then Shawn was because they waited to long to give the belt to Shawn. He should've defeated Diesel at WM 11 but instead he lost at Shawn lost all his momentum and by the time WM 12 came around the fans didn't care at that point. It's not like when Bret came back in late 1996 he was drawing huge numbers anyway actually he was drawing less then Shawn. HBK is the better wrestler and better talker of the two so I have no doubt in my mind he would've been a bigger star if the circumstances had've been different.
........................
yeah right, Shawn a bigger draw than Bret Hart, C'mon, first and foremost, Bret Hart only wreslted 5 months in 1996, Jan. Feb. March,Nov, and Dec.,meanwhile Shawn Wrsetled for 10 months or 11month meanwhile he faed his foot injury. So yeah Shawn drew more, only why because he was tehre for more months. and evryone knows Shawns tenure as champ, he drew crap... I like HBK, but Bret is way better an better draw...So dude get ur facts right
Posted By: REBEL (Guest) on October 16, 2009 at 12:14 AM
Some of these comments and rants are hilarious, but I'll keep it "PG" and not poke fun at any one in particular.
However, I do gotta disagree wtih the person who said no one cared about HBK beating Bret in '96.
"The only reason Bret was a bigger draw then Shawn was because they waited to long to give the belt to Shawn. He should've defeated Diesel at WM 11 but instead he lost at Shawn lost all his momentum and by the time WM 12 came around the fans didn't care at that point. It's not like when Bret came back in late 1996 he was drawing huge numbers anyway actually he was drawing less then Shawn. HBK is the better wrestler and better talker of the two so I have no doubt in my mind he would've been a bigger star if the circumstances had've been different."
Posted By: giver123 (Guest)
In early '95, HBK was just gettig his feet wet in terms of the main event scene. Not everyone can just become "the man" over night. Bret was already established, and Diesel was pretty much Vince's "new generation" version of Hogan. Why would you job him to a guy who up until that point was a mid-carder? Also, HHH was the first heel to walk out of WM with the belt and that was 5 years later. There was no way HBK was winning that match. Even if he had, the win would have been outshined by Lawrence Taylor in the main event anyway. Everyone knew Shawn would be a big star, and while his match the previous year with Razor put him on the map-he went out and made himself look better than Diesel at WM 11, and that pretty much cemented him at the upper echelon of the roster, imo. The next night was his memorable face turn, and his "superstar aura" was increased tenfold. The next year, it was clearly his time and stage to shine on and he accomplished that, with Bret's help of course. I cant help but chuckle when you say he "lost all his momentum" by losing to Diesel, when he in fact became essentially the #1 face in the company immediately afterwards, due to Bret's depush (Lawler, Hakushi, Isaac Yankem, JPL), and Diesel's less than stellar reign as champ. So in reality, he lost to the top dog in the company and still became more popular than him just a few short weeks later.
That rant aside, I really enjoyed the layout and execution of this column. I know some may not like it, but I enjoyed the back and forth diatribe, as a conversation between 3 people flows better and is more entertaining, to me at least. Good shit keep it coming.
Posted By: amusing comments (Guest) on October 16, 2009 at 03:48 AM
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