Ask 411 Wrestling 10.21.09: Diva Nudity, Divorce Courts and Draft Dodgers

Posted by Daniel Wilcox on 10.21.2009

The latest installment of Ask 411 Wrestling features discussion of future Hall of Famers, CM Punk's push, Brock's undefeated streak, Diva chair shots, Diva nudity, the term "Diva" and much more, including the all important question, "What is a Miz?"

Welcome to the latest installment of Ask 41 Wrestling, your one-stop shop for all wrestling-related factoids and tid-bits.

Matthew Sforcina is unfortunately out of action this week, and that leaves you in the somewhat less capable hands of yours truly. I haven't had my own column in the zone for a while, but hopefully you'll be familiar with my work in the 4R's, and the music zone.

I'm not even going to pretend that my knowledge of the sport is as complete as that of Matt's, but thankfully he gave me the option of pick and choosing which questions I answered, so I mostly just went for the ones I felt comfortable answering.

I'll leave the Backtalking and quiz bit for Matt to catch up with next week and get straight to the questions, but first, the greatest banner in 411 history!



Questions, Questions, Who's Got The Questions

Laszlo Takacs kick us off with two questions;

Hello, I enjoy your articles and had a question. I keep hearing people say Brock was undefeated the first time he won the WWE championship. But if I remember correctly didn't he get disqualified the PPV before he won the title. If I remember right he was fighting RVD for the IC title and was disqualified for using excessive force. Don't disqualifications count as losses?

At King of the Ring 2002, Lesnar beat Rob Van Dam in the tournament finals to earn a title shot at the WWE Champion at Summerslam. In the pay-per-view in between, you're quite right in thinking that Lesnar lost to Van Dam via disqualification. The reason for this is because they didn't want Lesnar reigning as Intercontinental Champion heading into the WWE Championship match. But the use of the term "undefeated" in wrestling is often misleading. Brock is one example. Essentially, what they really mean is that said wrestler has never been pinned or made to submit, thus they often ignore DQ or count out losses, or multi-man matches where the guy may have not won the match, but also not taken the fall. There are countless examples of undefeated wrestlers who weren't technically undefeated, such as Brock, Samoa Joe, Umaga, Vladimir Kozlov and countless others.

I was watching ECW Summer Sizzler '93 which had a match where a female wrestler named Angel had her top removed and a glimpse of actual nudity could be seen. Is this the first example of female nudity in wrestling? I remember other situations with Miss Kitty and Lollipop; what other examples are there of this type of thing?

Although I'm not familiar with the incident in question, I would wager that it's almost certainly not the first incidence of female nudity in wrestling, despite the fact that ECW, even in 1993 when it was still Eastern Championship Wrestling, was far more cutting edge and risqué than anything else out there at the time. That said, it's arguably the most notable incident up until that time. Apparently the incident occurred as a result of the match between Miss Peaches and Tigra.

As for similar occurrences, there are plenty, and I am a little bit worried that I may be fuelling your masturbatory sessions, which is a little weird, but here goes. The first one I remember seeing was at Capitol Carnage 1998 when Sable ripped off Jacqueline's top. Then there was the Miss Kitty one at Armageddon 1999 where she decided to strip just for jokes. Infamously, a month later the world got to see Mae Young's sickly looking puppies at Royal Rumble 2000. More recently, Candice Michelle's breasts were exposed on an episode of Raw in 2007 during a backstage skit, but tape was used to cover her nipples. But most such incidents are total accidents. Quite frequently you'll get an eyeful of ass crack, less frequently there'll be the occasional nip slip, and if you're really unlucky, you'll get to see Awesome Kong's tits as she is tossed from a battle royal on TNA pay-per-view. You may also remember Edge and Lita's Live Sex Celebration in January 2006 popped more than ratings when the bed covers accidentally got pulled down to reveal Lita's left breast.

Rob S. has a Divas questions;

1) When was the phrase "divas" first applied to women in the WWE on a regular basis? I was also wondering, has a women's wrestler (WWF/E) ever used a steel chair on her opponent? I can't remember any off the top of my head, but maybe you would know.

While Sunny is widely considered the first Diva, it was Sable who first used the term on the April 19 1999 edition of Raw. The term became popular and was used more frequently thereafter. Marlena would be the third of the original Divas, by the way.

As for chick-on-chick chair shots, I knew there'd be one involving Victoria and Trish Stratus, and I managed to find the video.



There are other examples, I'm sure, as Divas have competed in all sorts of hardcore type matches over the years. There's been a fair few in TNA as well. So they're rare, but it does happen.

Mark has a question regarding the brand split;

Hey, my name is Mark and I have a question regarding the WWE Brand Split:

I told you so.

Since the Brand Split by the WWE back in 2002 is there anyone still on the roster who has never been traded/drafted/gone to another show?

It seems as if nearly everyone currently with the WWE who was with when the brands split has been traded or drafted at least once. The only people I can think of who might have stayed with one brand this entire time is Funaki and maybe Shawn Michaels. But if you want to get technical I think Jerry Lawler has only been with Raw the entire time as well.

On the Raw roster, you have Shawn Michaels, Santino Marella, Cody Rhodes and Ted DiBiase. You can add Lawler to the list as well if you like. Outside of HBK though, those wrestlers haven't been around that long so it's not that big a deal.

On SmackDown, you have more relative newcomers like Drew McIntyre, Eric Escobar, Slam Master J, R-Truth and Jimmy Wang Yang and Funaki, who have been around longer, but as they're total jobbers who would hardly get used wherever they get sent, this is no big surprise either. Michelle McCool is one who has a prominent role in her division and has been around for a fair while.

From ECW, Sheamus, DJ Gabriel, Tyler Reks, Yoshi Tatsu and Abraham Washington all qualify too, but again they've not been around very long.

But clearly, HBK is by far the biggest name to have never switched shows. I nearly mentioned Taker, but you may recall he was Raw's very first Draft pick in 2002 but then went to SmackDown after his Undisputed Championship reign ended later that year.

Next up, Jared wants to ask about columns for this very wrestling zone, right here, at 411!

Matt, Love the column a couple of 411wrestling related questions.

First do you recall any columns on here you found very controversial and/or disturbing? I remember one in particular written by Jake Chambers suggesting Owen Hart's death was a hoax.

Second of all do you know what article has received the most comments? I believe the Owen article did over 250.

Personally, there's nothing written about wrestling that I would consider controversial, but obviously a lot of people would. I would never get offended by something I saw on a wrestling programming, let alone by something someone has written about it. That said, Chambers' columns were nearly always criticized for their controversy. The one you mentioned got 260 comments, nearly all of which wondered how he ever got hired by the site, which is exactly the type of response he wanted. In my experience when someone writes something so controversial that it gets hundreds of angry complaints, they were looking for a reaction. However, this isn't true of a column I wrote about a year ago that claimed Triple H was the best performer of the last decade, which sparked about 150 angry complaints.

As for most-commented articles, I can't name one. That Chambers article has to be up there. Anything that gets over 100 is doing pretty well, something I've only managed maybe a handful of times. The most frequently commented-on articles usually include the Year-End Awards, and any "list" type column e.g. The Top Ten/Five. Fact or Fiction usually does quite well. Pay-per-view and TV reports are up there too. As for what garners the most hits, again it's an assumption, but anything by Csonka or Dunn.

It's worth nothing though, that often the best-argued columns often receive fewer comments because they present such a good case that it's hard to argue with the points raised.

Steve Dicker has a question about wrestlers' residence;

So, Kofi Kingston is no longer from Jamaica. This week on Raw he was announced as being from Ghana, West Africa, yet he still had the reggae music and the Jamaican colors on his ring gear. I know it's common for wrestlers to change their hometown once they change their gimmick, but how many others have actually changed their residence without a gimmick change? I can think of Chris Benoit & Chris Jericho, who simply moved to the US, but that's about it. JBL, Undertaker, Mick Foley and others all changed or tweaked their gimmicks upon taking their new residences. The only other I can think of is Sid Vicious, who settled down in West Memphis, Ark., after many years of hailing from wherever he damn well pleased. And what was the reason for Kofi's move? That's a pretty big commute!

I would have to suggest that the reason for changing Kofi's billing is to de-emphasize the gimmick somewhat. I probably would have gave a different answer before Monday's Raw, where Kofi dropped the accent, but that now seems to be the case. Ghana is Kofi's real birthplace, by the way. Kofi was originally billed from Jamaica because, according to Leslie Goffe of the BBC, (although I have no idea what he has to do with wrestling), ""[People] would be more likely to embrace a person from the land of Bob Marley and reggae music" than someone from Ghana." And that sounds about right. Now Kofi is firmly cemented on Raw, there's no need to carry on the pretense.

As for the second part of your question, the same applies to Christian as it does to Benoit and Jericho. Although you could argue that this was initially done as part of a gimmick change, as the first time Christian was announced from Tampa, Florida was WrestleMania X-8 in Toronto – had he still been a face at that point, I doubt they'd have bothered to change his introduction at all.

Another question that I *need* to know, just WHAT is a Miz? And to a lesser extent, what is a Brian Kendrick?

Miz is one of the several hundred Enochian Angels. Or a Japanese pop/rock singer. Or the shortened form of The Miz's real name, Mike Mizanin.

As for Kendrick, I don't know what a Brian Kendrick is, but The Brian Kendrick is a pothead, likely to make his debut in TNA within the coming weeks.

Steve wants to know about some old wrestling terminology.

Hello again Mathew! Great column as I'm sure you know!

Quick question: As I was reading a review of Unforgiven 2005 on this very site (What's All The Hubbub: Unforgiven 2005), twice in the article was a description of a move called the "divorce court" (ex. "He does get a divorce court and applies a couple of armbars"). Do you have any idea what a divorce court is?

I had an inkling about what a "divorce court" was in wrestling terms as I was sure I'd heard it before, but I looked it up just to be sure and all I got was a bunch of articles about Hulk Hogan and Linda.

It turns out my inkling was completely wrong, and without sitting through several matches worth of tape (which I don't have time for right now), I'm still not certain this is right. In my research I found a report of a recent Dreamer/Kozlov match where the move is also used. In the report you mentioned, Carlito uses it against Ric Flair, but it is blocked at a second attempt, prompting Flair to begin his comeback. Now, comparing this to a report of the same match, Flair's comeback starts when he blocks an armbar DDT. So I'm thinking the divorce court is that DDT where the arm is hyper extended. This makes sense as the aforementioned Dreamer/Kozlov match features Kozlov heavily working on the arm of Dreamer.

Again, I'm possibly wrong, and there were surely easier ways of finding that out, but that's the best I've got.

Alec has a Punk question;

Hi,

Thanks for doing such a great job on the column. Been reading it since its inception and think this is one of the best - maybe the best - runs it's had. However, I like Charlie Haas so what do I know? That wasn't my question.

Everybody bangs on about CM Punk being straight edge and how that must appeal to the higher ups as he isn't likely to get busted for drink driving or having ring rats blowing coke up his bum hole, but are they getting carried away in terms of how clean a straight edge life is? Surely one of the biggest problems wrestlers face is becoming dependent on pain medication. I'm pretty sure straight edge doesn't mean its adherents have to behave like Christian Scientists - if a straight edger gets a headache I'm sure they can take an aspirin, and if they break a leg they most likely will take the painkillers they're given. So, hypothetically, are people overestimating just how inscrutable CM Punk's career could be? He might not run the risk of alcohol- or drug-induced misbehavior but should we all be mindful of the fact that CM Punk's body is just as fragile as the rest of us and when he's throwing himself around like a Hardy we shouldn't take for granted the fact that he is only human.

Straight edge means whatever straight edge-ers want it to mean, essentially. Some of them abstain from not just drugs and alcohol, but casual sex and eating meat. Some of them just abstain from drugs and alcohol. I don't know about Punk's dieting habits, but it's common knowledge that the guy has no qualms with casual sex, as he's been in relations with about half of the female worker's in WWE and many more on the indies. But as far as I know, Punk abstains from ANY and ALL forms of drug use, including painkillers for a broken leg or aspirin. But if he didn't, he's still not going to get addicted to anything if he only takes an aspirin for the occasional head ache.

But that's not to say that people don't overstate the importance of his straight edge lifestyle. WWE never looked and him and thought, "this guy won't get us in trouble, put the strap on him." If WWE thought like that Punk would have been the face and Jeff Hardy the heel in their recent program. But, it's definitely something that Punk has going for him that most others don't. It's just not the reason he's in the main event. Hell, it probably doesn't factor into it at all.

Courtesy Flush has 2 questions;

1. Is it possible to give a rough time estimate of when the kayfabe era officially ended? This would be when Vince and company finally come out with the "we're sports entertainment" talk.

No. It's not possible to give a rough time estimate on an official occurrence. Some people would even argue that the kayfabe era is still alive and while. Certainly a lot of the fan base take their wrestling so seriously that you'd think it was all real.

2. I know the tradition is usually "go out on your back" but has anyone ever left an organization with a clean win? Maybe even over a major star? I don't mean situations where someone got a big win and then had some issue and was fired the next day. I mean a guy who the company was well aware it was their last match, but they still got the victory.

The first name that springs to mind is Trish Stratus, who won the Women's Championship from Lita at Unforgiven 2006 in her final match, in her hometown as well. She even won it with the Sharpshooter.

Worth noting, the next month, Lita got beat by Mickie James and had jokes made about her "box" a month later when she retired. There's putting someone over on your way out, then there's being humiliated. Of course, perhaps they thought Lita should go out on her back because, well, why change the habit of a lifetime?

Here's 10 question from RM to finish off this section.

1) Ignoring PPVs with multiple World Title matches, what is the lowest position, on a PPV card the companies World Championship has been contested in?

I didn't think I would, but I'm really struggling with this one. Obvious in more recent times, World Championship matches have been curtain jerkers, but only when there's been other big title matches later on. Benoit and Kane was the penultimate match at Bad Blood 04, their world title clash taking the backseat to Shawn Michaels and Triple H. At WWF One Night Only, the WWF Championship took a backseat to the European strap, but again that was only the penultimate match. There's dozens of such instances.

Two matches went on after the WWF Championship match at Summerslam 1992. Four matches came after Flair and Savage's title match at Mania V. The title match went on third at the '91 Rumble, but that was a 6-match card.

I'm sure there are better answers out there, but that's the best I've got unfortunately.

2) With the exception of Title Vs Title matches and the legendary Summerslam 1992, has any Championship lower than the World title been contested in the main event of a PPV?

TNA Unbreakable was main evented by a 3-way for the X Division Championship, while Rhino and Raven wrestled for the NWA title lower down the card. Then there was the aforementioned One Night Only event where Shawn Michaels beat British Bulldog in the main event for the European Championship. There are more I'm sure, but that's a couple of examples of the top of my head.

3) Is Pat Patterson still employed by WWE?

Officially, the answer is no. But he is still used as a "creative consultant" and presumably gets paid well for it. Of course, he was used on screen at Breaking Point so he obviously has some active involvement with the company.

4) In 2002 WWE did a GGW special or GGW did a WWE special depending on your outlook, there was a big HOO-HA at the time and the "contest" format was supposedly brought in at the last minutes, do you know what the original plans for the show were?

I'm drawing a blank. To be honest I don't even know what you're referring to. Readers?

5) What is Missy Hyatt doing these days?

Missy Hyatt does commentary work for the indy fed Women Superstars Uncensored. She also hosts her own talk segment called Missy's Manor. The company has a working relationship with Dragon Gate USA and features the likes of Awesome Kong, Daffney, Rain, Portia Perez, Jetta, Nikki Roxx, Mercedez Martinez, Dawn Marie and every now and then, Sunny.

6) Was the Gobbledy Gooker suit possible to wrestle in? or was the one night only appearance always the plan?

Was it possible to wrestle in it? Sure. Was it practical? No. As far plans for the character, that's something of a mystery. It seems a little dumb to hype the thing so much for one night only, and the negative response would have persuaded them to drop it ASAP, at least until it was revived for the Gimmick Battle Royal at Mania X-Seven.

7) What was the story behind ThursdayRAWThursday?

No real story, just that the show got pre-empted due to that bloody dog show. Whereas now they just put the show on a different channel, or at a different time or whatever, back then they had to move it to Thursday.

8)Can you see Chyna ever returning to the wrestling world in the future? And would any company take her?

I'd be surprised if WWE. She's pushing forty, has drug problems and seemingly has no desire to wrestle again anyway. If she did ever come back to wrestling, TNA may look at her, but again at her age, what does she really have to offer? A one-off appearance for WWE isn't out of the question, but I can't see her ever really being involved in the wrestling world again.

9) Was Outback Jacks Boomerang, the lamest finisher in wrestling history? If you haven't seen it he would clothesline the wrestler from the front, go and stand behind him, twiddle his thumbs until he was vertical again then clothesline him from the back.

Maybe, but probably not. At least it's not a generic roll of the dice type move. Or a leg drop.

Finally 10) Back in WCW Chris Jericho was fueding with Dean Malenko who was going under the moniker "man of a 1000 holds", he claimed he had 1004 holds, thus was better than Malenko, he even read them out, has the list of the holds ever been posted online?

Go here.

My Damn Opinion

Rob S. has a question about future Hall of Famers.

I guess this would be considered an opinion question, but which of the following current (or recent) WWE wrestlers would you consider to be future WWE Hall of Famers (assuming they don't leave the company on bad terms). Probably, the main obvious ones would be Taker, HBK, HHH, Cena, Orton. Would you consider the following to be hall of famers:

Edge / Batista / Jericho / Jeff Hardy / Rey Mysterio / Big Show / Kane.

I expect every name you mentioned to make their way into the Hall at some point. Most of them have already accomplished more than enough to be inducted in the future. Edge, Jericho and maybe Rey should all be the "main" inductee one year, as should the bigger names you mentioned, except maybe Orton but there's still time for him.

I'd like to think Finlay has done enough to get in, not least because of his work as a trainer. William Regal could make it too. Matt Hardy should make it as part of the Hardy tag team, but I also feel that Jeff is far more worthy than Matt is. CM Punk is a 4-time World Champion so arguably he is half-way there.

Outside of those guys, I see a lot of people with potential to make it, but it's far too early to say. I'm thinking guys like, Morrison, Ziggler, MVP, Rhodes and DiBiase.

Chavo Guerrero should probably get in too, but likely never will.

Doug wants to talk Taker's retirement.

Hey man,

With all the talk of Undertaker possibly retiring, I started thinking about a way he could make his exit. At WrestleMania 26, he faces whoever is deemed worthy (Edge would be my personal choice) and they have an amazing match. Undertaker loses, ending the streak, then walks up the ramp and does his over the shoulder look back at the ring (maybe cracks a smile) and then he's gone. We never see him again, at least not in character. What do you think? How would you end his career?

Honestly, I don't like this idea. It just seems really boring and unclear. Fans would be expecting him to return all the time.

Writing out the Taker character is nearly impossible because the guy has gone away and comeback so many teams. He's been buried alive, blown up, and set on fire more times than Bruce Willis in the Die Hard series. So how can you possibly end his career. WWE without The Undertaker is less fathomable than pop music without Michael Jackson ever was.

I don't even know if I would risk ending the streak. If you give it to an up-and-comer, there's a risk that they'll blow the opportunity by leaving to play in the NFL, or just get caught with a shit load of drugs on them. But what's the point of giving it to someone already established. Maybe CM Punk is the best compromise, though I'd love to see a guy like Triple H end it just to see how the smarks would react.

But does his career even end when his streak does?

I think the only way to do it convincingly is for Taker to (in kayfabe) end it on his terms with a promo, not by getting blown up or banished, because people won't by it. He should probably do it after winning one last World Championship though and retire with the title to underline his importance.

Finally, Richard has a "dream card" question.

If the WWE and TNA decided to combine into a 'dream card', what would you pick as the matches? Personally, Id like to see Angle vs. Morrison, Michaels vs. Styles, Samoa Joe vs. Cena, Batista vs. Morgan, and Abyss vs. Undertaker. The possibilities are endless.

OK, let's assume you want WWE vs. TNA matches, and no matches where TNA guys face TNA guys or WWE guys face WWE guys. And just because I can, I'm going to make this a mammoth 10-match card, hopefully with a little bit of everything.

Ultimate X Match: Christopher Daniels vs. Homicide vs. Alex Shelley vs. Chris Sabin vs. Evan Bourne vs. John Morrison vs. Matt Hardy vs. Shelton Benjamin

2 Out of 3 Falls: AJ Styles vs. Chris Jericho

Tag Team Table Match: Team 3D vs. Cody Rhodes and Ted DiBiase

Awesome Kong, Tara & The Beautiful People vs. Mickie James, Beth Phoenix, Gail Kim, Michelle McCool and Maryse

Randy Orton vs. Sting

No Holds Barred: Undertaker vs. Mick Foley

Monster's Ball Match: Abyss vs. Matt Morgan vs. Kane vs. Tommy Dreamer (someone has to get tossed around and take the sickest bumps).

Street Fight: Jeff Jarrett vs. Vince McMahon (overbook the fuck out of this, and it'll be all kinds of fun. Maybe Shane shows up to screw Vince).

Kurt Angle vs. Edge

War Games: The Main Event Mafia (Samoa Joe, Scott Steiner, Booker T and Kevin Nash) vs. John Cena, Batista, Triple H and Shawn Michaels (Naturally, Nash rejoins the Kliq to screw TNA).

What card would you guys throw together?