Ask 411 Wrestling 11.04.09: Sex Scandals, Parody Wrestlers & Banning Off The Top!
Posted by Mathew Sforcina on 11.04.2009
In this special practically almost totally Hogan free column, we discuss bookers doing TV shows, King Haku vs. King Race, Punk in the doghouse, rule ignorance, Death Match paychecks, Shamrock's failure, CM Punk's skull, title holders respect, and try to work out the best way to smarten someone up. Join us, do.
Hello, and welcome to this, the only column this week on 411 that can state that, while it cannot totally avoid mentioning that Orange Guy, is doing it's utmost to avoid him this week, Ask 411 Wrestling! Yes indeed, care has been taken to try and avoid all unnecessary mentions of Mr. Hogan.
Apart from that reference to Hulk.
And that one to Mr. Hogan.
And that one.
And the banner.
Backtalking
That's Not Ironic!: So I misused the word ironic? Well, in terms of the question, which implied that That Guy and Rude never fought, the fact that they did wrestle, twice on the same day even, is somewhat ironic, it's the exact opposite of the original statement.
That work? No? Darn, ah well, as a fell nit-picker, my bad.
Dave did remember seeing the match live in the Boston Garden however:
Anyway, Hogan wrestled Rude (I believe it was right before intermission) and the match ended when Ted DiBiase and Virgil did a run in for the DQ. Another clear memory was Bobby Heenan challenging Hogan to try and beat Rick in an arm wrestling contest prior to the match, with the taunt of "...or are you the same color as your tights, yellow?!" (Hogan won, of course).
The post match had Ted laying the WWF title across Hogan's fallen body, while throwing money down on him. Bam Bam may have made the save, it was a wicked long time ago, dude!
Thanks for that Dave.
Matt and Edge, sitting in a tree…: According to Steven and others, Matt has taken photos with Edge on Twitter, so the two have now made up, ‘5 years is a long time' is a quote from him about it. So, assuming that's true (while I fully endorse and support YOU joining Twitter and signing up to 411mania's Twitter account, I'm not going to join), good to know he's moved on a little.
Saturn V Malenko: It's an in-joke on the net that Dean wants to be the Last Standing Radical. 2 Down, 1 To Go…
Mankind's Debut: In an earlier draft, I had him as the joke, but then added in Khali, thinking I kept them both. My bad.
Your Turn, Smart Guy…
So yeah, no need to give the answers, since they came with it. So if you didn't try last week's Sporcle quiz, Clicky Clicky!
This week's (somewhat easy) question:
Who am I? A man who has never wrestled that guy I'm not mentioning this week, although it's now technically feasible. A man who is in contention for the highest number of total WWE title reigns of all time, more if you add in those titles held by people this person's managed. I've appeared in all of the Current ‘Big 3', as well as the older, proper, Big 3. Having gone through several looks, and at least one haircut, I am fairly easy to guess, since I am…?
Questions, Questions, Who's Got The Questions?
Jones starts with comedy, the immediateness of the ‘joke' forcing it's quick posting.
1 with Florida State having a less than great record this year and coach Bobby Bowden accused of NCAA violations, what do you think the first thing former FSU All American and WCW Heavyweight Champion Ron Simmons said? What do you think his VERY FIRST WORD was when he found out about his alma matter's problems? (this is supposed to be funny, I hope you get it.)
Oh I get it. I know exactly what answer you want. You want the expression Ron Simmons is famous for uttering in various situations, since it is appropriate here.
…
What was the other question?
2 the WWE has gotten criticism for hiring TV writers as bookers, what I am wondering is, what would happen if well known bookers tried to make it in TV? could you see Vince Russo scripting Family Guy or Dusty Rhodes writing for House or 24?
Actually Russo probably could pull off Family Guy. Given their Conway Twitty obsession, anything Russo can come up with wouldn't be too far off.
And most current WWE writers WANT to make it in TV. They use WWE as a job, like working on a soap or a teen drama, as a step towards making it big as a movie writer or as a sitcom writer who works on a sitcom about sitcom writers. So by all means they could.
But the really good bookers, probably couldn't pull off a regular TV role. Wrestling and TV, despite what WWE wants it to be, are too different. Which is not to say that a wrestler can't write, or that the booker of your choice might not be able to do it, but it'd be coincidental, it'd be an extra skill, as opposed to an extension of their wrestling booking.
Unless the story was about wrestling…
Brandon relies on his local newspaper.
I recently read in my local newspaper where the writer that previews the upcoming PPV said that CM Punk was in the WWE doghouse what did he do i thought he was doing good unless i missed something
Well, to be fair, CM Punk has been in and out of the doghouse practically his entire run in WWE. He is put in then wins the ECW title then he behaves and loses the belt and then goes back in and gets pushed on Raw and then he shapes up and is de-pushed then wins the World Title while in the doghouse then goes to SD and goes back in despite never leaving…
He seems to just rub certain people the wrong way. That, or the WWE Doghouse has a revolving door.
However, there is a recent issue that put him back, during the European Tour the WWE did just prior to Hell In A Cell. The story (which may not have happened this way but this was how it was told) says that:
"there was in issue with how Punk was dressed and The Undertaker tried to nicely tell Punk that he was the World Champion and was representing WWE overseas so he should dress better. Punk said something to the effect of "what about John Cena?"
This got back to WWE management and they took it as Punk thinking he was a bigger star than John Cena. Then the decision was made to take the belt off Punk at Hell in a Cell and put the match as the opener."
Now, depending on your viewpoint, Punk may or may not have a point.
It is true that John Cena, The Undertaker, and other such people are exempt from the WWE Dressing Requirements since it's incompatible with their characters. If someone were to debut with a gimmick of being a homeless person, they would be exempt from having to wear nice shirts and pants everywhere, since they should be dressed like a bum.
Now, with that in mind, one could argue that CM Punk could think he too is exempt from said requirements since he's a Smug Heel Bitch with a Superiority Complex.
On the other hand, he's not someone with a gimmick built around being a street born and raised type, plus Cena is much more popular than him.
Suffice to say, that seems to be where the Doghouse comments of recent stemmed from.
Mark also gets moved up since it's recent and I don't want to lose the video.
First time asking, read every week. Great Job!
Is it me or did everyone miss the fact that on this past Raw in the Miz v Bourne match, when Bourne jumped out on Miz and Swagger at the end, the ref did not restart the count? He just kept going and then Miz lost. Did WWE just not think of it or did they just figure no one would notice? Also, any other notable times when they have just blatantly ignored the rules of the match for one reason or another?
Well, the issue there was timing. They had to have Swagger cost Miz the match, but they couldn't justify Miz being distracted/KOed for 17 counts. So they used ‘referee's discretion' to say that he chose not to restart the count since Miz was clearly abandoning the match. But yes, according to the normal rules, the count should have restarted.
Of course, they could have had Miz toss Bourne out then go after Swagger, then Evan recovers, climbs the ring steps onto the apron and dives onto both, then slides back in, and that would have been one count, but that's logical! Can't have that…
Which is not to say rules aren't ignored all the time. Certainly watch any Botchamania, you'll see First Blood, Stretcher, Strap and lots of other gimmick matches end by pinfall. But in my mind the weirdest looking time that the rules were ignored in terms of counting was when Honky Tonk Man won the IC title.
Steamboat gets 1, Honky then gets the 2-3? Ga-Huh?
I'm sure the readers will now share their favourite rule ignorance moments.
Greg asks a question about an old rule that is viewed as being a very bad one.
Love your column. I look forward to it every week. I have a question concerning the AWA. I've been pretty much watching the AWA on ESPN every night now. I noticed that they pretty much skipped 1990 and went to 1991. In those episodes moves off the top rope were illegal compared to years past. How did they come about, and how did it play out in storylines?
Well, sadly I was unable to find the Kayfabe justification for bringing it in. I did however find a discussion about it, that occurred on one of the ESPN episodes, courtesy of Combat Sports Blog (and edited slightly).
The rule, as clearly defined by Lee Marshal of all people:
The guy coming off the top rope did a leg drop onto his opponent who was being held upright by his partner. AMW's Death Sentence is a pretty close visual for everyone. The referee immediately disqualified the guy for coming off the top rope, and both Lee Marshall and Verne Gagne on commentary protested. Marshall then noted that the disqualification is only put into effect when an opponent is laying prone on the mat. Marshall went further by actually saying if the wrestler had at least one knee on the mat, it would have been considered a legal manoeuvre.
This is very close to the rationale behind kicks and knees on the ground in mixed martial-arts (if one knee is on the ground, a fighter cannot kick or knee his opponent.)
Basically, the usual justification when bringing in rules such as this is that it's about safety. Moves off the top rope are far too dangerous, they might kill a man, hence they must be DQed.
Thus, when people do them, the effect is like a Piledriver in Memphis or a Hansen Lariat in Japan, that guy is dead. Hence heels are evil bastards for using it, and when the face does it to the heel we finally get satisfaction since he's now toast.
When you make something illegal, it instantly becomes cooler.
But I would welcome an old school AWA knowledge expert to step forward and give me the justification for this…
Jason asks a simple booking question.
So with the giant plate of awesome that is Smackdown these days, I was wondering, who is responsible? Who's booking the show these days? Michael PS Hayes? If not him, then who, and what is Hayes doing these days?
Yes, the old Freebird himself is the head SD writer at the moment. Below him is Christopher DeJoseph, a.k.a Big Dick Johnson. And below him are a bunch of minor writers and flunkies. Of course, above PS is Vince, but Hayes is the main writer for SD.
Next up is Sean, who's all about the Mon-Ay!
As with everyone else, my favourite column of the week.
I'm interested in finding out how much guys who wrestle for CZW get paid for doing what they do to themselves all in the name of (supposed) wrestling entertainment. I've recently watched some of this stuff on Youtube and some of the stuff they do (big bumps through tables from 40 feet up), light pole matches, fire, barbed wire, ultra-violence stupidity style etc makes the Foley – Funk death match look tame. And if the pay is rubbish, what else do these guys get from it and why do they do this to themselves? I'd want a huge paycheck (at least six figures) before I'd consider doing what they do even once.
Well, I don't have the exact fee structure on hand, but it's almost certainly far, far, FAR less than six figures. The figure I found was $70-$120 a show, which I can't verify but sounds about right, for those on the undercard.
As for why they do it, because they want to. They want to be a wrestler but don't have the skills to do it properly, or they grew up on ECW and want to top it, or they have a death wish or they had a bad childhood or… Who knows? Everyone has different reasons (some, for instance, can actually wrestle which makes their choices even more mystifying).
And like most indy wrestlers, they have day jobs, they work at various (mostly menial) jobs during the week, then ‘wrestle' on the weekends.
Of course, sometimes the pay isn't enough, at least once CZW wrestler (JC Bailey) has been arrested and put in jail for theft from a shopping mall, so clearly for some people, CZW doesn't pay the bills.
Did Vince McMahon ever have big plans for Ken Shamrock? For a while after he arrived, in 1997, he was portrayed as pretty badass. I remember watching him actually making then WWF Champion Bret Hart tap out in a WWF Title match. But they had done a ref bump. Then in the end Rick Rude clonked him with a briefcase so he won by DQ. The idea was that DX had saved Bret so that HBK could beat him up himself. But then Shamrock recovers and then goes nuts and starts beat the crap out of Shawn. I think the first Pay Per View after the Montreal Screwjob was Shawn Michael's defending against Shamrock. I didn't see the match, but I know he again won by DQ. And I think it was because Shamrock had Michaels in the Anklelock so DX interfered. I would have imagined that after beating two consecutive WWF Champions and actually all but winning the WWF Title, The WWF would have been building him as an up an coming star.. That's certainly what I thought back then, (at least in the capacity I could, being a little kid), but in the years he was with the company afterward he never turned into a star. He was in a triple threat number 1 contender match that he and Mankind lost to the Rock in the following year, but that's all I can think of that he even approached the main event during his WWF tenure. What happened there?
Certainly Shamrock was slated for big things. Bret Hart was a big fan (hence him tapping out). And even after Hart left, he did get a decent push. Rock only kept the IC title off him due to shenanigans, he ended up the 98 King of The Ring, then he turned heel and became a Dual Champ, which was pretty much the height of his standing in the company.
As for why he never became a huge star, there's a few factors. There's the old story that he never made it huge because he would always call out his spots really loudly, which was a deliberate move on Shawn Michaels part, he got him to do that so he could turn around and say that he couldn't work.
There's the fact that he was never a great interview, he never really learnt how to talk well.
But probably the biggest reason was incompatibility. You look at who was on top at that time, Austin, Mankind, Taker, guys that couldn't work well with Shamrock at that stage due to their style or personas. Had Shamrock either stuck around longer or debuted a little later, once the Radicals came across and Angle got established, then he really would have been in his element, since he had guys who could work with him in the ring and put on great matches.
Also, given that Bret Hart seemingly had no problem tapping out to him with the Title on the line, do you think he would he have found losing to him at the Survivor Series (or whenever) sufficiently less objectionable than losing to Shawn Michaels? Thinking back, he struck me as a viable candidate for a transitional champion, if nothing else, at the time. Especially given the guys booking, apparently thought he was good already enough to beat the champion.
Well, yes, if Vince had gone to Bret and asked him, Bret probably would have agreed to lose to Shamrock at Survivor Series, although probably not by submission. I don't think Vince would have done that, given how Shamrock was still somewhat untested and rusty, but it would have made sense.
And ruined the WWF comeback.
OK, so this is clearly advertising. It's shameless pap designed to sell cameras.
But still… BRAINBUSTAAAAA!
Chris brings us back to CM Punk.
While watching an old CM Punk vs. Chris Hero match from IWA-MS I remember hearing a commentator mention something about how CM Punk fractured his skull going for a corkscrew blockbuster. I've tried to find more information about this but I can't. Do you know anything about it?
Well, I did find this interview about it-
"The worst injury I've ever had was a fractured skull. I thought I broke my neck at the time. I was giving a guy a neckbreaker and his head wound up on top of mine and everything just sandwiched and hit the mat at the same time and my head was turned. It felt like somebody took a pot of warm water and poured it inside my brain. Everything got hot so I thought I broke my neck. I still had feelings so like a knucklehead I continued to wrestle for 12 more minutes. Afterwards it was a chore to walk from the ring to the back and as soon as I got in the back I hit the floor and couldn't get up. I couldn't open my eyes, I couldn't see and was throwing up."
On the reaction he got from doctors over the injury:
"No they didn't say anything like that they told me that they were shocked because I walked into the hospital. They were like 'how did you get in here?' I said 'I walked' so they said 'the bad news is you have a fractured skull. The good news is you should have died.' I was out two months."
This took place in 2002, so well before he began to wrestle for ROH. In 2002, Punk worked mostly for IWA: Mid South, and there is a big gap between May and October where he did not perform on any of their shows. So that would be roughly the time period, although who he was in the ring with I can't tell you.
Also, I noticed on his Wikipedia page they have a quote of him talking about CP Munk, the parody of him from CHIKARA. Their was one sentence in particular that I found intresting: "Sure it's no secret that the dorks that run Chikara and I don't get along, so they're [sic] judgement on trying to "mock" me is a little off." Now, I know that Mike Quackenbush runs CHIKARA. Does this mean CM Punk and him don't get along? Do you know anything about this? Since Chris Hero and Mike Quackenbush are friends, you think CM Punk would get along with Quack. Weird.......
Well, the problems with CM Punk and CHIKARA are more to do with the company vs. him, rather than any one person. Punk had to cancel an appearance at the very last minute, which CHIKARA didn't appreciate. So they created the parody, which Punk didn't like.
I'm not sure of the personal relationship between Punk and Quack, but he probably doesn't hate him, he just doesn't get along with him professionally. Although I'm sure if they had to wrestle he'd be professional about that.
Jason (again?) asks about the Icon… The Undertaker.
Phew.
Taker was one of my favorite wrestlers in the E. Now i understand he is older and probably cant work a full schedule. My question is that how come every time he makes an appearance he is always involved in the title picture. Is that something he demands or is that always Vince's call? Is he too good to feud without it involving the belt . Also what do you think are the chances of anyone ever ending the WM streak?
Well, the problem is that Taker is so well established and so high up that if he's not fighting for the title, then you have to work pretty hard to justify his not being in the hunt. Although during 2007 he was fighting for the right to get a title shot instead of wrestling for the title.
Taker doesn't come back and demand to be champion, it's more that he knows that he's high up the card and thus should be in the title hunt, a viewpoint Vince agrees with. He's proven that he doesn't have a problem working with and losing against new guys, it just has to be done right, with some build up. And putting the belt on him helps that, it helps make the other guy for taking the belt off him.
As for ending the streak, Vince is open to the idea, so if they found someone they knew they could rely on and who they wanted to build as a major name, it might happen. I don't think it will, and I wouldn't end it, but it's a real possibility. Especially if he fights anyone named ‘John'.
And ‘Cena'.
Next up it's Sunny, although probably not THAT Sunny.
1. I had a question about the late 80's/early 90's WWE sex scandal. I always notice most accusations are against Pat Patterson and a Terry Garvin. I was wondering if that is the same Terry Garvin that used to wrestle in the USWA and Global Wrestling Federation in the early 90's. It would make sense since that Terry Garvin's character was a flamboyant homosexual. But I find it odd that he would have been in a position of power in WWE in the late 80's.
No, that was not the same Terry Garvin. This is the GWF/WCCW Terry Garvin.
And this is the Terry Garvin that was embroiled in the Sex Scandal.
Not the same guy. The Terry Garvin in the video pretty much vanished after a while, whereas the photo one was big in the 60's and 70's, so when Pat Patterson brought him into the WWF he was already retired and into booking, and was co-owner of the Northern Ontario region. You can read more about the sex scandal Mr. Garvin here.
Sunny's second question comes later. Instead, we have Clyde.
Hi there, long time reader...
My question is, what was the issue about Harley Race and King Haku fighting for the crown in the 1989 Royal Rumble?
I admit, it is a good idea. Did it happen because Race got hurt, and they were trying to make Race a good guy (or Haku, for that matter)?
Did anything happen with the two men after that match? Shouldn't Bobby and Haku been nicer to Harley at the end of the match? Did Harley stay part of the family after that?
OK, let's go from the top.
Early 1988, Harley Race, in the closing stages of his career (although he wasn't about to retire any time soon), was in the WWF, playing a slightly silly "King" gimmick, with Bobby Heenan. All well and good.
Then on the March 12th edition of Saturday Night's Main Event, as part of the build up to Wrestlemania IV, Race wrestled… One half of the soon to be Megapowers. During the match, Race tried a diving headbutt onto a table. But Thunderlips moved, and Race hit the table hard. So hard, in fact, that a metal part of it jammed upwards into his gut.
After the match was over and he lost, he felt injured but kept going. A month or two later, he had to leave for a while, as he had a nasty hernia from the injury. WWF chose to acknoldge this injury, and they had Bobby find a new King while Race was out. He found one, in Haku.
And at the time, Race was for this. They had a video package (which I sadly was unable to find) of Race giving Haku his blessing before zooming off up to the stars.
I wish I was kidding.
So all was well and good, right?
Nope.
Harley returned in November that year, and Race began a rather odd feud. Race was still clearly a heel, as he teamed up with Andre the Giant at Survivor Series, but he was also anti-Heenan and anti-Haku, as he cut promos about how while he was out, Heenan never called, never visited, and he was back to regain his throne.
The two wrestled a few times up until the Rumble, where Haku won, kept his crown, and left with Heenan. That would be Race's last match in the WWF, as he left, in disgrace.
Of course, the reason he came back was to just put Haku over a bit, although him staying a heel was an interesting twist, both men were heels, but in the end we were supposed to hate Haku and Heenan more. Bobby especially since he cheered on both men and left with the winner, not even having the guts to pick one.
The final questions in this section this week are a bit metaphysical, from Jake.
I'm watching ECW, and the last match is Christian and Tommy Dreamer vs Kozlov and Ezekiel Jackson (with Steven "Evil Genus" Regal watching on), and a thought occurred to me that's occurred to me many times before, but I've never had a place to ask. Christian and Regal have a title match in "less than a week" (even though this was filmed when it was technically over a week away), so this match is put together clearly to weaken Christian at the hands of his underlings, while Regal sits back and watches. I've seen this same scenario a hundred times. There's always that "brutal match" just before the PPV involving someone in a major match .. and someone not on the PPV card at all. Have they ever done a story line or something, where someone just said .. no? I mean, what's the kayfabe reason for actually putting up a fight, and not just going in, and laying down for a 3 count to save your body for your title match? Would the fans really hate someone for laying down for a match that meant nothing, if it meant he could keep his title and not be so "banged up" that he loses? Since they don't say that winners of matches earn vast amounts of money more than losers .. and they make a big deal about how "having a title brings you respect in the locker room and money" .. it would seem to me that it would be a wise thing to do, and that someone would have done it by now. I'm not saying Fingerpoke of Doom lame .. but there's 20 kickouts in half these matches .. just .. don't kick out the first time. Something like that. So I guess my question is two fold, first .. has anyone done that before? And second, has there been an established kayfabe reason NOT to do something like that, given how important they make the titles sound?
Yes, at least once, someone has had a match that is meant to be a beat down match where they just lay down, or in this case, submitted. Although this match was not the week before but right before. I give you the glory that is Chavo Guerrero V Stevie Ray, followed by the proper match, Chavo V Eddie, Hair V Hair.
As for the reason why, for faces, it's about honor and respect. When you step into the ring, you give your all, each and every time. Sure, you could lay down, take it easy. But if you did that, why not just use an exposed turnbuckle to win? Or a chair? Why not grab the ropes for leverage? It's about how when you step into that ring, you're upholding fine traditions that go back a hundred years, and taking it easy, laying down, you don't just spit in the face of your friends and other wrestlers, but you spit in the face of every wrestler who ever stepped foot in the ring. Faces never back down from a challenge, never take the easy way. That's the general idea.
Or, they don't want to show their opponent that they are weak, they want to show them that they can beat their flunkies and thus they can beat them too.
Now, heels can and have set up matches like this and just gone and gotten themselves DQed deliberately, that has happened on occasion. But sometimes, heels have had to fight. In those cases, it's about ego. Some guys just refuse to lose, their ego will not let them lay down.
Or, if they lay down, they might get fired for not doing their job.
Or they too want to prove that they are better than their opposition.
There are plenty of justifications, and no one right answer.
Although as an interesting side note, at least once the opposite happened, where the guy who was supposed to be wearing someone down for their buddy won the match and thus the title. That's how RVD's run as ECW TV champ began, he beat Bam Bam Bigelow in what was meant to be a match to wear Bam Bam down for Sabu.
Oh, also .. I've heard various stories in the past about locker room things .. and it seems that some amount of pandering does go to the belt holders, and that just by virtue of having the belt, a person gets some amount of increased say within the company. Why? I mean, since it's not real, and the matches are fixed beforehand .. it seems rather odd that they'd suddenly start listening to someone, because he "won" the belt when it's something they can script off him anytime they really feel like it. Granted, the star still has to go out and drop the title to lose it .. but there's plenty of instances where for one reason or another, a title is vacated or whatever to move it without a match needing to be held. So .. why do title holders seemingly get special treatment, when the title is just a plot piece?
You kinda have the cart before the horse, in a way. Belt holders don't get special treatment because they hold the title. Those who hold the World Titles get the titles, in theory, because they are the best in the company, they are the best wrestlers, or the best draws, or the biggest names or whatever. When you are made champion, it's the company saying "We trust you to make us money, we believe you can draw crowds". Thus, with that, comes the implied idea that they are good at what they do, and thus know what they are talking about.
Hence some pandering is to be expected, since they are, theoretically, at the top of their game. Doesn't always work like that, and certainly not all title holders get such esteem, but that's the general idea.
My Damm Opinion
Told you Sunny would be back.
2. I was also curious about your opinion of Mr. Kennedy. I ask because I've noticed that most members of the IWC don't think his loss was a big deal. However, I think that he was a HUGE loss. In order to become a huge Wrestlemania worthy main eventer you need that special charisma and connection with the crowd. And I think Kennedy had more of that than just about anyone on the roster. Even though he had been injured and booked horribly, every time his music hit the place went insane. The crowd chanted along with him and he came across as a top guy. I think its a huge loss because they need new stars and I think Kennedy was a definite future main eventer. Your thoughts?
I'm torn on Kennedy, which is fitting, since that's what his muscles did all the time.
…
The thing about Kennedy is that while he is charismatic, and his youtube videos have shown that the guy has charisma in spades, the dude never had a truly great match, and was always getting injured or suspended at the WORST moment. When he almost injured Randy, that was the last straw, in that WWE has a bunch of people who, while not as charismatic as Kennedy, are close and much better in the ring.
If WWE were struggling for talent, he'd have been kept on. But being the big dog means you can play it safe sometimes.
I expect MVP to get the sack sooner or later for much the same reasons, honestly…
Gee, I'm skipping ahead a whole bunch of questions this week. But this one's important, from Jesse
I have a judgement call for you Matt. My son has been watching "sports entertainment" with me, literally, since the day he was born. He's become the kind of kid Vince targets…DX backpack, Cena lunchbox, etc…But he's in 2nd grade now and he's starting the hear the "it's all fake" talk from his friends. My question to you is, when do I "smarten" him up and how do I go about doing so? This question has taken on new meaning for me because Wrestlemania is being held here in Arizona next year and I'm getting ready to drop some serious cash for something that I'm hoping will create lifelong memories for us. I'm conflicted about telling him the truth because, well, it's still real to me dammit!!!
Well, it depends on what he says. If he comes to you and asks if Wrestling is fake, that's different than if he asks something milder, like why do people keep running after an irish whip or something, or if he's happy to ignore his friend's taunts.
But overall, I'd start with a WWE DVD, and the ‘Do Not Try This At Home' bit. (If that appears on TV on your channels, great, but the DVD is a better bet since you can pause it). Ask him if he understands why they say that. Explain to him that wrestling is really dangerous if you're untrained, they really are going out there and throwing each other around. While they are trained and they know what they are doing, it's hazardous. Mention that people have been severely injured in the ring. And even without getting injured, it still hurts. They still do it since they love it, and they enjoy entertaining guys like you and me, but it still hurts.
Let this sink in for a bit. You can go straight into the next step if you like, but you should probably let the idea that it's painful and injuries happen get in first, and let him accept that it's still ok to watch, despite this. It certainly gives him a response to "It's fake", if he needs one. "Guys get hurt!"
Once he accepts this, then you go into the next step, wherein, after a show, ask him about it, ask what was his favourite bit, did he enjoy Cena winning or whatever happened. Then…
It depends on the kid, and what else he's into. I can't tell you the exact words, obviously, but hopefully he's a fan of something else, like Ben 10 or some other animation or comedy show. The general idea should be that you bring up this other property, and you ask him that he understands that it's not real, that it's animation, and/or that they really aren't Wizards at Waverly Place or such. Well, wrestling is like that. While they do go out and wrestle, they are telling a story. They don't REALLY hate each other, but they're acting. But it's still dangerous and real in terms of the physicality of it. But they're telling a story, just like any show.
And that's the default response to teach him when someone teases him. "It's fake!" "So's The Simpsons, so what?" or whatever.
Hopefully that helps. But at the basic level, you make sure the kid understands that it's physically real, then you can reveal that it's a show. But I'm sure someone in the comments section will disagree with my approach. Timing… I can see the argument on holding off, but then you can also argue that you'd want the kid over the hump of understanding it's a show as early as possible. I guess it's a matter of how he reacts to the real physicality of it.
But what about you guys? How were you told? How would you tell him? Leave a message, and I'll see you all next week.
Punk has been in the doghouse since 2006 when he debuted. Give it up people.
Posted By: WATRY (Guest) on November 03, 2009 at 11:56 PM
Answer this fellow men and women:
Is the name of the company 'TNA' holding them back, perhaps?
Posted By: Question (Guest) on November 03, 2009 at 11:57 PM
i am Think That Eirc Bischoff is from Arizona, any chanc ehe maes the trip to WM26 for a HOF appearance in his home state?
Posted By: Jimmy Johns (Guest) on November 03, 2009 at 11:58 PM
I think that Ken Sramrock was very under rated. World champ? Not in the WWE. TNA? Yes. IC mid card man-he was a very good performer.
Posted By: Shamrock (Guest) on November 03, 2009 at 11:59 PM
React to what? Wrestling is real right? It can't be fake. Really?
Posted By: Vince Russo (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 12:00 AM
Awesome.
Thank you!
Posted By: Clyde (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 12:12 AM
Raven
Posted By: RVD 4:20 (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 12:31 AM
I've got a question. In late 1999 before Savage left WCW he said he was going to pass the torch to someone in a promo but never said the individual. Does anyone know who he was referring to? I'm curious how this individual's career went.
Here is the clip if you have no idea what I'm talking about.
Posted By: wwf1992 (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 12:35 AM
You're Mick Foley?
Posted By: subtlefuge (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 12:43 AM
I don't know about the managed bit, but it seems like it has to be Mick Foley.
Posted By: Guest#8083 (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 12:47 AM
That dress code rule is bullshit. Either make it apply to everyone or don't bother having one.
Posted By: His Bubbliness (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 01:10 AM
it's raven, he held hardcore title 27 times and managed the quebecers
Posted By: Justin (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 01:15 AM
Matt, thanks for taking the time to answer my question. $70-120 wouldn't even cover the cost of the medical bills...
Posted By: Sean (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 01:16 AM
Mick Foley
Why all the talk about Taker always being in the title picture and being champ? He went from July 2002-April 2007 not holding the World title.
Feuded with Lesnar in the fall of 2002 and fall of 2003 for the strap, and same as JBL in fall of 2004. That was about it.
Posted By: Joe Blow (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 01:18 AM
I'm gonna take a stab at the question and guess Raven unless by 'WWE title reigns' you mean reigns with the actual WWE Title and not just any WWE belt. There's only a handful of people who've held it a large number of times.
HHH: 8 times (highest ever)
The Rock: 7 times
Steve Austin: 6 times
John Cena: 5 times
Bret Hart: 5 times
Randy Orton: 5 times
Hulk Hogan: 5 times
Anyone else is 4 times or less so I'm gonna guess you meant any WWE title and Raven's got quite the number of Hardcore Title reigns.
Posted By: His Bubbliness (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 01:26 AM
Someone beat me to it, but You are Raven. He wrestled in WWE, WCW, ECW, TNA, and ROH, covering both past and present Big 3, he held the Hardcore title too many times to remember off the top of my head, and lent his skill managing, so to speak, in every promotion he's been in
Posted By: Last_Rider (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 01:36 AM
I was 9 years old and I wanted to see the Big Bossman vs Mr Perfect rematch from WrestleMania VII on an episode of Superstars. I asked my dad if we could hurry up the shopping so we could get home to see it and he told me its fake anyway. They dont really get hurt the belts dont mean anything. Bossman is a fat hillbilly and Perfect is probably one of the boys thanks DAD.
Posted By: Radtke (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 01:37 AM
I think you're missing the biggest question as it relates to Punk being in the doghouse. Couldn't it all just be a bunch of B.S.? It seems like any top name who didn't start in the WWE or at least make their name there is always subject to "in the doghouse" rumors. Someone like Punk who was an indie darling is especially prone to this.
I could be overthinking this but it seems like whenever Punk loses a big match or it seems like he might the rumor mill automatically runs with stories about him being in the doghouse.
Granted, I've heard stories about the guy and he probably has been there a time or two (most guys probably have; I'm specifically thinking about how his undefeated streak ended unceremoniously against Hardcore Holly) but it seems like a kneejerk reaction.
Punk has a big match coming up and most fans think he's going to lose... post a rumor about him being in the doghouse! I mean, maybe he was just scheduled to lose and there's no reason to overthink it?
---
"He's proven that he doesn't have a problem working with and losing against new guys, it just has to be done right, with some build up."
You're going to need to expound on this because I don't buy that 'Taker has been losing to new guys. While it's true on paper he rarely ever loses to them in convincing fashion. When he does, he usually gets the better of them in at least one (usually more) rematches. The only two truly big lay downs I can think of 'Taker doing were to Kozlov and Khali: two giant, talentless lumps.
More often than not when 'Taker loses to up and coming guys he does so in gimmick matches that require lots of cheating and run ins. Again, when the feud ends it almost always ends with 'Taker having gotten the better of the young guy.
'Taker is a great legend and all but he still comes off as incredibly protected (even though he doesn't need to be) and one who rarely puts over young talent (not sure if that's his call, Vince's or a mix of both.)
Posted By: Ron Mexico (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 02:58 AM
My mother told me every single time I sat down to watch wrestling from when I got into it at the age of seven - "It's not real you know. You know it's not real." It kinda ruined it for me actually - I never got to be a mark.
Regarding disregarding rules - Finlay getting DQ's in the Royal Rumble is a biggy.
But I think the biggest ever was the Flair/Hogan First Blood cage match at Uncensored 1999 - it ended in pinfall, and both men were wearing the crimson mask.
And I wasn't that bothered about Kennedy when he was released. I was a big Kennedy fan, but repeated injuries made me apathetic. However, the Edge Road to Wrestlemania in Smackdown vs Raw 2010 reminded me how entertaing he was, and now I miss him :-( Damn that Randy Orton!!!
Posted By: Quimby (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 03:26 AM
Im in a similar situation to Jessie. My son is 5 and we watch Smackdown every week (and sometimes catch Raw). He’s not realised its not real yet and probably wont for another few years. I remember even when I was 12 or 13 I had some doubts, even though all my friends thought it was fake. I kinda liked that I didn’t know as it made it more intriguing and I’d watch more closely to see if I could catch a mistake or an audible. I still do that now! If he asks, tell him, but otherwise let him figure it out himself. Life’s tough, let them be kids while they’re young!
Posted By: pure dynamite (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 04:39 AM
the bill watts era in wcw was infamous for the ring participants forgetting the rules. sometime the ref would call for the bell suddenly as the wrestlers forgot about the tope rope rule. then there were times the wrestlers just stopped wrestling and standing around. they knew the rule but the ref forgot.
Posted By: rey (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 05:57 AM
I believe that Punk was wrestling Reckless Youth Tom Carter when he fractured his skull.
Posted By: y2jdingo (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 06:17 AM
I'm confused, AWA stopped running shows and producing tv in 1990, so how could espnclassic air shows from 91?
Posted By: educated savage (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 07:25 AM
Posted By: Propagandhi (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 08:26 AM
Who is the heel holding the ropes open for King Haku in that video? I've never seen him before.
Posted By: Ralphie Boy (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 09:28 AM
"Well, the problem is that Taker is so well established and so high up that if he's not fighting for the title, then you have to work pretty hard to justify his not being in the hunt. Although during 2007 he was fighting for the right to get a title shot instead of wrestling for the title.
Taker doesn't come back and demand to be champion, it's more that he knows that he's high up the card and thus should be in the title hunt, a viewpoint Vince agrees with. He's proven that he doesn't have a problem working with and losing against new guys, it just has to be done right, with some build up. And putting the belt on him helps that, it helps make the other guy for taking the belt off him.
As for ending the streak, Vince is open to the idea, so if they found someone they knew they could rely on and who they wanted to build as a major name, it might happen. I don't think it will, and I wouldn't end it, but it's a real possibility. Especially if he fights anyone named ‘John'."
1. If the writing staff was more creative, Taker could have plenty of feuds that did not involve the belt. Guys used to have brutal feuds about something other than gold. Writers just dont know how to write it any more. Seriously, will Orton or Cena ever feud with other guys over something other than the belt? Taker, a gimmick character has plenty of feud opportunities without the title.
2. What young guys has Taker lost to? He has been pinned clean so few times over the years it is a joke. Kozlov is the only recent example, and that really benefitted him, huh?
3. The streak should end. I love how you all could care less about being cheated out of the outcome of one Mania match every year. Lame.
Posted By: Guest#6001 (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 09:44 AM
Have the kid smack his buddy flush on the ear and scream "That's an open-hand slap. That feel fake to you?"
Posted By: GG 206045 Allin (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 10:10 AM
Taker always in the title picture solution
Get him in a feud with some random monster with a rellated backstory. Take a big guy from FCW have Paul Bearer come back say he's not dead and swears revenge on Undertaker with the aide of a guy recently escaped mental institution who used to work as an apprenice to bearer and taker at the funeral parlor until Paul revealed to him that Undertaker was the one that caused the fire that killed this guy's parents as well and the big monster guy goes insane and was never seen again. UNTIL NOW.
Taker IMO was never more entertaining as a character than with the initial Kane stuff.This gives us mindless horror goodness, and a potential shot for a new guy to get something and make it stick.
Posted By: Will (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 10:22 AM
Personally, I never had to be TOLD it was fake. I always knew. I mean, I just never saw how it could feasibly be real. I mean, the stuff they do to each other every week and then they just come back the next week without even a bruise. But, that was never what was important to me. I could never understand people saying "But it's fake." In my head, I was always thinking. "...Yeah, DUH! What's next, Einstein? Water is wet?"
Personally, I feel like I would have that discussion as soon as possible. When I have kids, I'd much rather have them understand that right away, that way you avoid the possibility of them taking it seriously and therefore having their heart broken to find out it isn't. But, I agree with Matt that it is also VERY important to be sure they know that as "fake" as it is, it is still very real and even though the guys actually know what they are doing and are highly trained, they still get injured sometimes, and most of what they do still hurts.
Posted By: RavenEffect (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 10:29 AM
Hey Matt.
I read the column every week and it's my favorite piece on this entire site.
You always seem to do a great job answering questions, and for the most part being very honest when you either don't know something or need to accept some help from other members and staff.
I'll tell ya though.... The last 'opinion' piece in this weeks' column totally raised the respect level.
That was very nice and well written by you regarding Jesse's 2nd grade son. I don't think I could have imagined a more well-written comment to her. I think you handled that perfect, so my hat's off to you.
Alot of people really appreciate the work you do, please keep up the great job Matt!!
Thanks again
Posted By: Just another fan (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 10:42 AM
I got the taunts in jr. high and Mick Foley's first book saved me from completely giving up on wrestling.
Posted By: Carnivore (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 10:48 AM
Punk 'in the doghouse' and his NUCLEAR HEAT has become a running joke now. Every time some dirt sheet tries to assure us he's going to get buried badly now he goes and wins another title or beats another top guy. You could set your watch by it.
Posted By: Ryushinku (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 10:49 AM
I know that in the Royal Rumble they change the rules all the time, but I still remember the 1997 edition when Mil Mascaras went out between the middle and top ropes to splash to guys on the outside and the ref said he was eliminated.
That bad rule management has always stood out to me.
Posted By: chemolition (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 11:02 AM
more wcw questions please
Posted By: JWestmoreland (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 11:30 AM
IIRC, the AWA top rope ban came after a cage match involving the Destruction Crew and Paul Diamond. After the match was over, the Crew attacked Diamond as he was leaving the cage after his partner was already on the floor.
The Destruction Crew gave Diamond their "Wrecking Ball" finisher several times before help could get into the cage. (The Wrecking Ball is basically the Road Warrior Doomsday Device finisher.)
In kayfabe, Diamond was badly injured by the Wrecking Ball which led to the top rope ban. (In actually, the injury was to explain Diamond's leaving as he was on the way to the WWF to reteam with Pat Tanaka as the new Orient Express.)
I think at first all top rope moves were banned but later was changed to Marshall's explaination from above.
Posted By: MG (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 11:49 AM
Don't know if this exactly answers the question, but for 'avoiding beating' like Chavo there, there were a couple of times DX did something similar when *insert authority figure* wanted to make them fight each other, when HHH and HBK fought for the European title, and there was a Fatal 4 Way to take the titles off of the Outlaws, they were both tagged in, one pinned the other so they kept the belts since they both won and lost.
Posted By: Robin (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 11:53 AM
"I expect MVP to get the sack sooner or later for much the same reasons, honestly…"
and I agree, 100%, MVP sucks. It seems like everybody else loves him, so im glad somebody agrees with me.
Posted By: NickNitr0 (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 12:21 PM
I started watching when I was 8 and knew from the outset that it was scripted. Not sure if I figured it out on my own, but more likely my brother just told me. I don't think this is the sort of thing that is delicate and requires any amount of subterfuge. I guess it's a bit different because the kid has been watching for a while, but I would probably just explain it all straight out.
Posted By: Paul (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 12:31 PM
I was 7 yrs old sitting in a pizza place with my older brother and older cousin and my mother told us it was fake. Sure she would trow it in here and there but as we staresd at two twin girls our young minds finally clicked and the world as we knew it that day ended. Now I am the only one left who watches it.
Posted By: hateman (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 12:49 PM
Posted By: Propagandhi (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 08:26 AM
Congrats on the double failure. First you should that you are incapable of reading for context based on your assumption that Punk thinks he's a bigger star than Cena. Then you failed again by trying to overemphasize your point with a Drew McIntyre comparison. I understand that going over the top is a tool some people use to put a finer point on something. But when you do it you just look like a clueless fool.
"OMG, I made fun of Punk! He's an independent darling so if I mock him I'll totally stick it to the IWC fanboys! Aren't I clever?"
No dear, you're not. You're sad. Try again.
Posted By: Tom Talker (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 02:08 PM
Sorry but taker may have lost against younger guys, but he has yet to put over a single opponent
Posted By: Guest#3086 (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 03:07 PM
"But he's in 2nd grade now and he's starting the hear the "it's all fake" talk from his friends. My question to you is, when do I "smarten" him up and how do I go about doing so?"
Just tell him the truth so he doesn't think you forced him to live a lie. Also, doing so will prevent your son from respecting the men of the playground more than his dad who wasn't even willing to share the facts of life with him.
Posted By: Kip (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 03:08 PM
Explain to him that these guys get hurt all the time because it's dangerous, but that it's scripted, along the same lines as the NFL or NBA. Except the WWE is willing to admit it's shows are scripted, and professional sports leagues aren't.
Posted By: Sink (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 03:28 PM
Elimination rules in the Royal Rumble vary by what fits the storyline. In '96 an eliminated Vader threw Shawn Michaels out, but Shawn was allowed back in. The very next year an eliminated Ahmed Johnson returned and tossed Faarooq (with the aid of a 2x4, no less) and that stood.
"Would the fans really hate someone for laying down for a match that meant nothing, if it meant he could keep his title and not be so "banged up" that he loses?"
Have you ever heard the crowd boo when an awesome match is made for the upcoming PPV or even the next week's TV? They want to see good wrestling live. The kayfabe explanation is definitely about honor and respect for the business, title, etc. Another example, this too from ECW, would be Taz laying down for Sabu (after kicking his ass, of course) to "lose" the FTW Title so that he would be in line for an ECW Championship match with Shane Douglas.
I think your advice is pretty spot on. As for me, I always had an inkling in my mind because a) I was twelve when I first started watching and b) would hear my dad's snide remarks constantly. I was in heavy denial at first (angry beyond belief that Bret lost at the Iron Man match) but always knew in the back of my mind. It was once I fully accepted it that I begun to watch the matches as an artform as opposed to an athletic contest and I became an even bigger fan. And now that I think about I prolly figured it out in late '95 as I watched the Bret/Bulldog IYH match trying to grasp how to perform the la majistral cradle pin on my brother and coming to the realization that one could never do this unless the opponent let him.
Posted By: neverAcquiesce (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 04:07 PM
1 - Taker lost to Brock in an AWESOME Hell in Cell match
2 - PREDETERMINED and FAKE are two different things. WWE is the former.
Posted By: MotherFriendly (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 04:11 PM
"CM Punk thinks he's a bigger star than John Cena?
Posted By: Propagandhi (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 08:26 AM"
Ehm learn to read, Punk never said nor hinted at that. Punk asked a pretty legit question, since Cena has often been World Champion and dosent dress in any particular way, its a perfectly legit question to ask why he should, given that he was World Champion at the time the question was asked by Taker.
I know you wanted to make fun of Punk, or maybe even make yourself look cool or smart, but at least read whats posted in these (quite great colums) before you jump the gun.
I never post but i simply had to pick you aside and slap you around here for being a fool.
Posted By: Nightz (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 04:28 PM
You wanted an AWA expert you got one. The off the top rope rule was used for a two fold purpose. Most clearly know the AWA was on life support immediately following SuperClash 3. This led to drastic booking calls such as The Team Challenge Series, the career ending injury of Greg Gagne, and the quick title trade between Larry Zbyszko and Masa Saito.
The Texas Hangmen and The Destruction Crew were the AWAs top heel teams, and the Destruction Crew especially were using top rope maneuvers to prone opponents, most notably "The Wrecking Ball" which was better known as The Doomsday Device.
Over time on commentary Lee Marshall, Verne Gagne, and the rest of the AWA broadcast team covering live matches sold that these moves were career threatening and became more and more incensed by them. Taking the lead from the WWF who used figurehead President Jack Tunney in making major decisions on-screen that got fans interested, the AWA decided to use their on-screen President Joe Blanchard in that capacity.
Unfortunately they didn't make a major announcement such as Hogan vs. Warrior or a 16 man tournament to crown a heavyweight champion. They used him to make the announcement of banned maneuvers off of the top rope to "prone" opponents which you took the time to explain very well and draw a great comparison with the use of kicks and knees to a downed opponent in an MMA fight.
So the banning was used to A) Shake up things in the AWA to try to hotshot the crowds which failed miserably, and B) To get the heels more heat when they did use top rope maneuvers and get them over as dangerous guys who didn't care about rules.
Posted By: Patrick Mullin (Registered) on November 04, 2009 at 04:29 PM
Easy...you are?..."The Natural" Butch Reed.
Dusty Rhodes did write for a tv show. He was one of the writers on the tv show "party of five" between wrestling gigs. He talks about it in his book, and on interviews on youtube
Posted By: Handsome Ray Bronson (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 04:44 PM
regarding finding out when wrestling was fake, anyone else get swerved like me? After watching the wwd for few years I finally realised around 95 or so that it was fake..then the nWo came along in wcw in 1996 and they were beating everyone up and i thought this is so real!
the thing is people tell u it's fake and they think you've never heard that before!
Posted By: vince mcfan (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 05:09 PM
dusty wrote on party of five? That seems so weird... of all the shows.
when i first really watched wrestling for the first time, my sister started freaking out about how Booker t. was getting beat up by the flock and my dad was trying to calm her down by telling her it wasn't real.
In my young mind I thought, he's just saying that to calm her down and she couldn't possibly be reacting this way if it were fake. About a month later this kid, who was a wrestling fan told me it was fake, and i freaked out and went home to ask my dad, who told me it was fake. It's odd because I always knew santa was bullshit.
I would tell your kid it's fake ASAP, I knew it was fake and I loved it and reacted to it in the same way i would have if it WERE real. Also, Sforcina makes a good point to make sure the kid knows they can still get hurt if they try it themselves.
Posted By: Brett (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 06:53 PM
Now i love deathmatch wrestling(Just like how i love the Puro style, The Lucha style, The American"Strong Style", Technical wrestling) But after deathmatches the wrestlers get free medical help.(The only man that i know that have come close to dying in deathmatches are Atsushi Onita when after a deathmatch he almost died from germs after he jumped in a River. And Nick Gage(who i believe sued the hospital because they didnt want to send a ambulance so CZW had too call a airplane that cost gage many bills). Deathmatch wrestlers earn about 200$ a match, they do it because they love the hardcore/deathmatch style of wrestling. Alot of deathmatch guys now a days work both Hardcore and Non Hardcore matches while there are some deathmatch guys that dont know a wrist lock from a wrist watch(Ian Rotten, Freekshow, Lobo, Zandig). Dont bury hardcore wrestling because now a days there is ring pyschology in deathmatchwrestling and guys who incorparate Deathmatch wrestling and techincal wrestling(Drake Younger, Jun Kasai, Danny Havoc, SeXXXy Eddy, Scotty Vortekz, Nick Mondo, MASADA, Thumbtack Jack, Nick Gage, Justice Pain, Balls Mahoney, Terry Funk(in his prime)) I think deathmatch wrestling gets shitted on just like how the Lucha Libre style is criticised, How Lucha fans criticise 60 minute technical masterpeices. How TNA gets criticised, and how the WWE gets criticised. So if you dont like a certain style of wrestling DONT WATCH IT. Plain and simple.
Posted By: I Love Wrestling (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 07:05 PM
During the McMahon Helmsley era, I had a dream that Stephanie McMahon told me wrestling was all an act and that she was actually HHH's brother.
LOL I think I had a crush on her or something.
Posted By: circh (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 07:50 PM
The Undertaker has been champion less than CM Punk has in the last 7 years. And Punk hasn't even been in the WWE that long. And that's not even counting his ECW Title reign. If you do count it, then Punk has o far been Champion only 1 month less than Undertaker has in his ENTIRE 19 year career.
It's only been relatively recently that Taker actually was in the title picture semi-regularly at all.
It's worth saying that right after the report that report about Punk being in the doghouse came out, it was ALSO reported that it was completely untrue, and none of it really happened.
Posted By: Guest#7765 (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 08:02 PM
Why is the "Taker's so high on the card, he has to fight for the title" used? Dude was always one of the top 2 faces in the company during the '90s and wasn't even involved with the title from '91 until '97? He's at a point now where he doesn't need to be in the title picture, and he's detrimental to it when he is.
Posted By: Guest#4903 (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 08:14 PM
RE Mr Kennedy; apart from almost injuring Orton, the major problem with Kennedy was you never knew which wrestler was going to show up on any given week. He would be sloppy, have poor timing, miss-call spots etc one week, then the next week he'd be crisp, smooth and look great. Just too inconsistent and injury prone.
My fuckface of an uncle ruined wrestling for me when I was 9 or 10 in terms of markdom. But before this, I remember one of my friends telling me about the Million $ Man hitting someone in the face with the Million $ Belt and being horrified.....how could someone survive being hit in the face with diamonds like that??? Those were the days.
Posted By: dennett316 (Guest) on November 04, 2009 at 08:44 PM
Smarten him up right away. Wrestling ain't Santa Claus.
Posted By: King Hake (Guest) on November 05, 2009 at 08:24 AM
I got a question about Matt Hardy. It looked like he was on the rise around the time that Jeff left, but then when the whole drug bust went down, it seemed like they killed his push just to try and distance themselves even more from the situation.
Now that it's come out that Jeff was more or less framed by the cops so that they could search his house, what do you think WWE will do with Matt? Because lately, they've been burying him more than The Executioner, Kane, and Mankind did at Buried Alive years ago.
Hehe...The Executioner. What a crock.
Posted By: Jason King (Guest) on November 05, 2009 at 08:24 AM
You could have your kid powerbomb the little booger-eaters telling him wrestling is fake, preferably through a table. After he does that he could scream, "Get up you pussies! It can't hurt! It's all fucking fake, right?!" That's what my dad told me to do and I turned out just fine.
Posted By: Zingy (Guest) on November 05, 2009 at 07:46 PM
Here's a question for you that I've seen a lot recently on this site. Shane's departure is said to be taboo, almost in the same light as Randy Savage's departure. What's the whole deal between Savage, Vince and apparently Stephanie?
Posted By: Steve (Guest) on November 05, 2009 at 09:10 PM
Bullshit Austin can work with most people especially in 97,98.Shamrock wasnt exactly luggae either he was easily carriable to a good match.
I think he could have been big.The WWE just cant get someone who cant cut good promos or under 6'5 over,thats all it is.
Posted By: MacDollarz. (Guest) on November 06, 2009 at 08:07 PM
My freinds a wrestler for ECWA and JAPW (mainly) he gets paid like 40 bucks a show...ON A GOOD NIGHT bro.
TOP guys get like 60-100,i doubt even 100.
You defintley dont get into wrestling for the money unless you have an "in" in the WWE,TNA,or Japan.
You can forget about money.
Posted By: MacDollarz. (Guest) on November 06, 2009 at 08:12 PM
There was a time when Orton was "in the doghouse" and now look at him.He's the only guy that can stand up to HHH and HBK and not get fucking fired an hour later.
Being in the "wwe doghouse" can mean anything from midcard veterans not liking you to just being happy to be there(Booker T when he first signed).
There's just juvenile,sophmoric,jealous assholes in the WWE who loved to demonize other companies for politics but dont realize theirs is worse in a sense because they go "seniority" instead of whos drawing and who doesnt.
Probably only the wrestling locker room in the world where a Hardcore Holly or a JBL can rib a world champ and get away with it.
Honestly I think being injury prone is worse than being a junkie the WWE right now.
It makes sense from a business standpoint to avoid certain guys like Nigel and drop guys like Kennedy but there are others who are injured on the regular as well.
The WWE needs to give their wrestlers mandatory time off not everyone is a Cena or an Eddie or a Steamboat and can wrestle with broken limbs for weeks and tell anyone.
They need to give more time off at least 2-3 weeks(from houseshows) every six months.
Posted By: MacDollarz. (Guest) on November 06, 2009 at 08:33 PM
I grew up watching the NWA and was a Ric Flair mark like nobody's business, but my dickhead older cousin(who went on to become a priest, go figure) was always about telling me how fake it was and what a jerk I was for believing in something so clearly phony.
My dad eventually found the right way to explain the situation to me. As a 10-year-old, I started taking Tae Kwon Do, and was knocked out and suffered a concussion when an instructor was demonstrating kicks and inadvertently tagged me right in the head, although I was told later(by a fellow student who went on to become a drag queen, I shit you not) that my ragdoll physics moment looked awesome. My dad told me, "Boy, you know how dangerous getting kicked in the head is, right? How do you figure these guys do it to each other night in and night out and aren't (here he did an entirely inappropriate and entirely fucking hilarious mockery of the mentally handicapped)? You've got to understand, they're AT THE VERY LEAST pulling their punches so as not to kill each other. Watch the matches a little closer, you're a smart kid, you'll figure it out."
Goddamned if the old man wasn't right. And the best part was, it didn't dilute my enjoyment of wrestling one iota. I was now focused on the storytelling aspects and how they DIDN'T kill each other with moves that looked like they rightfully should. A couple of years later, my buddy Dustin introduced me to usenet, specifically RSPW, and that was it.
In before, "And you descended into your parents' basement and never looked back". Cocknobblers.
Posted By: Action Hank (Guest) on November 06, 2009 at 10:02 PM
i wrestled very briefly for a small amount of time for a couple of promotions in southern Ontario in 1997 and 1998. i banged up my leg falling out of the ring and could not believe how many people would then ask, but its alll fake right? let the kid enjoy the show. youve got to believe....(cue crappy music).......
Posted By: pjl (Guest) on November 08, 2009 at 05:49 PM
Anybody remember Wrestlemania IV? Slickster pulled the ropes and caused Bam Bam to tumble out. The ref started counting - Bam Bam was on the apron trying to re-enter while One Man Gang kept pounding on him.
The ref kept the count going and that was that - granted, it was a mercy killing but still not following the rules.
Posted By: mdhpiper (Guest) on November 10, 2009 at 06:35 PM
rasslin's fake !?!
Posted By: ICON (Guest) on November 10, 2009 at 11:21 PM
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