Wrestlings 4Rs Tuesday Edition 11.17.09: TNA Turning Point And Dragon Gate USA: Open The Untouchable Gate Thoughts
Posted by Larry Csonka on 11.17.2009
TNA Turning Point served up two match of the year candidates and lots of good wrestling to deliver one of the years best PPVs! Check out Wrestlings 4Rs for a full breakdown of that show and thoughts on the latest Dragon Gate USA PPV!
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Short Thoughts On Dragon Gate USA: Open The Untouchable Gate By: LARRY CSONKA
Apologies for this being late, but I had to cover a lot of MMA last weekend, and some things needed to get pushed back. I am going short form for this with that being the case.
Dragon Kid pinned Masato Yoshino @ 14:12: In a rematch from the first PPV, Dragon Kid and Masato Yoshino once again did battle. This is a perfect example of the right match to kick off the show, as these guys are fast as hell, they always excite the crowd and they built off of the last show with the rematch. The other thing is that this was different from what else was to come on the show, and they were able to let it all hang out, and not burn out the crowd. Their first match on PPV was good, this was better, and hell, bring on #3! [****]
Mike Quackenbush and Jigsaw beat Yamato and Gran Akuma @ 14:13: On the first show, the CHIKARA special was a great match, and was followed up with an angle that would bring us to this show, which was great booking on the company's part. The first two matches of this show directly fed off of the debut show, that's episodic shit right there, and episodic TV/PPV is always a good thing in my eyes. Unfortunately the match just didn't deliver in my eyes. It was not bad, but it felt like an average TV match to me. Part of it was that the bout was over choreographed, and the other part being that Jigsaw blew out his knee. So the match suffered, but they continued the angle stuff as after the match, Yamato choked out Quackenbush until Hallowicked made the save. I still say that they should keep building this towards an all CHIKARA vs. Dragon Gate PPV. [**]
Naruki Doi pinned Bryan Danielson @ 22:23: The ace of the US vs. the ace of Dragon Gate, a match with a ton of hype, a ton of promise and a match that delivered BIG TIME. When Bryan Danielson in on, he IS the best in the world. His great mix of MMA and pro wrestling, always place din the right places and timed right makes the man just an incredible athlete. Doi is just a fast and amazing worker, and when he gets in there and has the time, he also delivers. They worked a great pace, with good mat wrestling, counters and Guerrero/Malenko counters and pin falls sprinkled into the bout. This was one of those matches that sucks you in and you lose all reference of time because you are so involved in what you are watching. This was one of the very best matches in all of 2009 right here. In closing, while I am happy that Bryan Danielson got a job with WWE and will finally be making some good money after years of hard work and abuse to his body, I am also sad because we likely will not be seeing awesome shit like this from him anytime soon. [****¾]
Cima pinned Brian Kendrick @ 2:35: There were two things that I did NOT like at all on this show, and one of them was this "match". For those wondering, the match was actually much longer, but they ran too long on other matches, so when editing the show, they made the call to clip the piss out of this match and air it in its bastardized form. This was EXTREMELY stupid. This was simply a case of trying to squeeze as much on the show as possible, and in a bad way. The first PPV was rather well paced, better than some of the ROH PPVs, but this was just a bad mistake. They know how much time they have, and they should have worked out the match times better. They simply should have shown a 30-second video package of the match and hyped it as one of the "DVD extras". This match added nothing to the show, it did nothing for either guy, and was a poor choice by the company. [NR]
Davey Richards pinned Shingo @ 25:43: The whole point of the Davey Richards vs. Shingo match was to get Richards over as a really big deal for the company. Richards was allowed to run wild for a bit on Shingo, but when Shingo got the heat on him, the crowd really got behind Richards, I mean in a big way, which was great to see. Richards used some great work on the arm through out the bout, while Shingo did his thing well and it clicked big time. The end played well into the arm work, as Richards, after a near fall from a SSP, locked in the kimura and made Shingo tap. Richards has really developed his "hybrid" style well, and always works his style so that the finish makes sense. This was an excellent match, but I liked the Doi vs. Danielson match a little more. [****½]
Genki Horiguchi and Ryo Saito beat The Young Bucks @ 17:00: This was a really good tag team match, and it is really fun watching the Young Bucks thrive here in DGUSA. These guys are awesome, and they delivered yet again. Horiguchi and Saito took control with a low blow early, and worked over Matt after that, who sold the beat down really well. Again, I say that the Bucks have a great Hardy Brothers feel to them, and I mean that as a good thing. The end saw MIST by Horiguchi, and Saito hit the double cross for the win in a fine main event. The only real complaint is that since they can edit these shows, I think that they should alter things around and make sure that the main event is the BEST match that they can provide. This is the second PPV they have run, and this is also the second PPV where the main vent comes off as a bit of a let down. But that's just my opinion. [***½]
Production Values: The other thing that also hurt the show in my opinion were the production values. I know that some people are not satisfied unless they get WWE production quality, and thusly they tend to not give Indy companies a chance. I am not that guy. I understand that not everyone will be WWE and or TNA for that matter when it comes to production values. But this show, for whatever reason, regressed in the quality of production from the first show, and it bothered me. Hell, my brother was over and walked in while I was watching and asked why I was watching such a shitty VHS tape. Now while it may not have been that bad, it also wasn't good. This company may be a promotion for hardcore fans, but if they want to grow they will have to snag some casual fans, and fans that are used to WWE and or TNA usually will not go for low production values. It may not be "right", but it is reality.
The 411
Dragon Gate USA continues to deliver on PPV. There were two EXCELLENT matches, another very good match and some other solid outings. The only math I didn't dig was the Kendrick match as I explained. The only thing that will hold back the quality of the shows right now will be silly decisions like the Kendrick one, and the production values. Still, for $15-$20, the promotion is the best bang for your buck right now if you want no bullshit and all wrestling.
SHOW RATING: 9.5
TNA Turning Point By: LARRY CSONKA
MATCH RESULTS:
* X-DIVISION TITLE MATCH: Amazing Red defeated Homicide @ 10:00 via pin [***¼]
* KNOCKOUTS TITLES ON THE LINE: ODB, Sarita and Taylor Wilde defeated The Beautiful People @ 7:00 via pin [*½]
* TNA TAG TEAM TITLE MATCH: The British Invasion defeated Beer Money and The Motor City Machineguns @ 12:00 via pin [***]
* SIX SIDES OF STEEL: Tara defeated Awesome Kong @ 8:00 via pin [**¾]
* Rhino, Ray and Devon defeated Matt Morgan, Hernandez and THE POPE @ 14:00 via pin [***¼]
* FALLS COUNT ANYWHERE MATCH: Scott Steiner defeated Bobby Lashley @ via pin [*]
* Kurt Angle defeated Desmond Wolfe @ 17:00 via pin [****½]
* TNA WORLD TITLE MATCH: AJ Styles defeated Samoa Joe and Daniels @ 22:00 via pin [****¾]
THE RIGHT:
X-DIVISION TITLE MATCH: Amazing Red defeated Homicide @ 10:00 via pin [***½ ]: TNA picked the right match to kick off the show with the X-Division Title match. The first thing I liked about the match is that it wasn't a cluster bout as I said that they needed to get away from. They worked on building a singles feud, and hey, they delivered a singles match on PPV. Red and Cide work really well together, and all I asked is that they get some time to work, and they got it and delivered. They worked hard, Don West fits in his new role well, and in the end, I really have no complaints. The other thing here is that they had a CLEAN finish. No bullshit, no one else involved, just a clean finish. They had a good pace, the crowd liked it, and the show was off to a good start.
TNA TAG TEAM TITLE MATCH: The British Invasion defeated Beer Money and The Motor City Machineguns @ via pin [***]: The tag team title match was another good match. As I have said, three teams have a certain level of greatness. The Invasion is always getting better as a team, The Guns are awesome, and I felt that Beer Money would be that all important anchor for the bout. This was just a good and fun match, as the Invasion looked good as champs, the Guns were the sizzle, and Beer Money were just great in there. While it wasn't a blow away match, it was a ton of fun, and for now, the right decision was made to keep the titles on the Invasion. I have to mention that I HATED was the shit with Eric Young and Nash at the end. We were doing SO WELL with the clean finishes and lack of bullshit, only to have it come up here. Thankfully the match was good, but I did not like this at all. And no, I don't care about the "Hulk knows" shit.
SIX SIDES OF STEEL: Tara defeated Awesome Kong @ 8:00 via pin [**¾]: While I was not a fan of them jumping right to the cage match in the feud, due to it devaluing the stipulation, but with that being said, they had a god match here. I felt that they used the cage stipulation well, they both worked hard, and they also used some creative spots. Kong was Kong, and used her power to control things, but Tara was able to come back and finished with the Thesz press off of the almost top of the cage. The best part about the finish is that the BIG MOVE actually was the finish of the match. I was so worried that they would keep going there, but they stopped at the right time, and I dug it. This was the best Knockouts match on PPV in some time.
Rhino, Ray and Devon defeated Matt Morgan, Hernandez and THE POPE @ 14:00 via pin [***¼]: Another good match was the six-man tag. As I figured, the heels would win by shenanigans as well as the faces not working that well together. Pope BUSTED his ass in there, and continues to shine as a star. He tried to prove himself out there to Morgan and Hernandez, which as mentioned, played into the end. Everyone worked hard, and to those complaining about the "young guys" losing, this was the first match of the feud. Rhino is being reestablished, and 3D just turned. They needed to win here. I figure that this will lead to Rhino vs. Pope and possibly Morgan and Hernandez vs. 3D for the IWGP tag team titles. This was a lot of fun.
Kurt Angle defeated Desmond Wolfe @ 17:00 via pin [****½]: Desmond Wolfe's time in TNA thus far has been handled well, and they certainly have high hopes for him by virtue of programming him with Angle. The match itself had a TON of hype going in and high expectations, and I have to say that they delivered big time. Wolfe's work of the arm was great, as he was trying to keep Angle from being able to use his suplexes and such. Wolfe was awesome here, and while the Impact Zone didn't react to his moves like an ROH crowd would, due to them not knowing him as much, he came across like a star. And what can you say about Kurt Angle, the man just delivers when he is out there, and one has to wonder how good he would be if he was completely healthy. The end worked as Angle had to use something that he never used before, which threw off Wolfe, who claimed he studied Angle. Also, the way he walked away was similar to Austin walking away after losing to Hart. Taz also did a great job calling the action, explaining the moves that some may not know about and using obscure, but fitting references like Billy Robinson. I do believe that wins and losses in wrestling, but I am also a believer in the WAY that you lose. The bottom line here is this, they went into this match with the idea of creating a star in Desmond Wolfe, and I feel that they did that here. Who knows if they mess it up at TV this week, but this was greatness.
TNA WORLD TITLE MATCH: AJ Styles defeated Samoa Joe and Daniels @ 22:00 via pin [****¾]: And then we came to the main event, which had a lot to live up to due to their past reputation and also due to the match that came before it. I had my doubts, mainly because it is four years later, and these guys have worked so hard and damaged their bodies, that I was not sure that they could capture lightning twice. I am happy to say that I was wrong. The chemistry that these guys have is simply amazing, and this match goes up their with the first as one of my all time favorite three way bouts. The execution of the three way moves was flawless, they set a rapid pace and kept it, and it JUST CLICKED. I think you all know what I mean, sometimes there are matches that just click and flow so well that you get sucked in and are in a different world, and this was one of those matches. I said this about Doi vs. Danielson and I will say it here, this was one of those matches that sucks you in and you lose all reference of time because you are so involved in what you are watching. And also, this was one of the very best matches in all of 2009 right here. Congrats to all three men involved, they delivered and showed that four years later that they could still deliver at the level that they have previously.
PURGATORY:
NONE
THE WRONG:
KNOCKOUTS TITLES ON THE LINE: ODB, Sarita and Taylor Wilde defeated The Beautiful People @ 7:00 via pin [*½]: The second match of the night was for the knockouts titles. I HATE these matches, tag matches with more than one title on the line, they suck and are lazy booking. There were times when the match was ok, but honestly, ODB, Sarita and Wilde carried the match as they could. Sky and Rayne tried, but they had a lot of trouble keeping up, and LVE is just SO BAD. I used to love TBP, but as I said in the RT, they have lost all of their heat with LVE replacing Love. With Tara winning against Kong, I suppose she challenges next, and I hope that they set up challengers for Sarita and Wilde. Flash and someone else (would love Sara Del Rey) would be excellent.
FALLS COUNT ANYWHERE MATCH: Scott Steiner defeated Bobby Lashley @ via pin [*]: The only other match I didn't like on the show was Steiner vs. Lashley. Sure they tried hard, but the match was just not good. It was slow, sloppy, and I thought that they would die on a few times, like the Frankensteiner spot. Steiner landed on his head as Lashley didn't want to take the move at all. It was a sloppy 1998 WWE Hardcore match without the heat. And then there is the perplexing decision to have Steiner defeat Lashley CLEAN. And yes, with it being anything goes, that was clean. I first thought that they were going to write off Lashley with the ending, but then he got up and was all pissy. I have no clue what they tried to accomplish here, as the only redeeming quality was Steiner's continued Rick Rude tribute with Krystal on his trunks. At least they didn't have Krystal turn on her husband.
THE RIDICULOUS:
NONE
The 411
I have said it before and I will say it again, when TNA stops with the overbooking and lets their talented roster go out there and do what they are capable of, they can deliver on PPV and that is exactly what they did here. The last two matches were awesome and delivered what I hoped that they could. The opener was a good one and did its job, the tag title match was also good and had the only real "bullshit moment" of the night, Tara and Kong had the best Knockouts match in some time, and the six-man was a ton of fun. The only let downs were the Knockouts Tag and Steiner vs. Lashley, which were not good, but also weren't horrendous. TNA simply delivered a great PPV. Where they go from here is anyone's guess, but for now, I am a happy man. Buy the damn show.
SHOW RATING: 9.0
**LARRY'S** RANKINGS THUS FAR
Rankings may change through out the year upon a second, third, tenth, one hundredth viewing
2009 PPV Rankings:
-DG: USA ENTER THE DRAGON {9.9}
-DG: USA OPEN THE UNTOUCHABLE GATE {9.5 }
-TNA TURNING POINT {9.0}
-TNA BOUND FOR GLORY {8.1}
-ROH RISING ABOVE {8.0}
-WWE NO WAY OUT {8.0}
-TNA SLAMMIVERSARY {8.0}
-WWE NIGHT OF CHAMPIONS {6.9}
-WWE THE BASH {6.8}
-WWE EXTREME RULES {6.7}
-WWE BRAGGING RIGHTS {6.6}
-WWE JUDGMENT DAY {6.5}
-TNA NO SURRENDER {6.5}
-WWE BREAKING POINT {6.3}
-TNA HARD JUSTICE {5.9}
-TNA AGAINST ALL ODDS {5.5}
-WWE HELL IN A CELL {5.0}
-TNA DESTINATION X {3.5}
-TNA VICTORY ROAD {2.0}
2009 TOP PPV Match Rankings:
-[WWE WRESTLEMANIA] HBK vs. The Undertaker (*****)
-[TNA TURNING POINT] TNA WORLD TITLE MATCH: AJ Styles vs. Samoa Joe vs. Daniels (****¾)
-[DG: USA OPEN THE UNTOUCHABLE GATE ] - Naruki Doi vs. Bryan Danielson (****¾)
-[ DG: USA ENTER THE DRAGON] - Mike Quackenbush, Jigsaw, Fire Ant and Soldier Ant vs. Amasis, Icarus, Hallowicked and Gran Akuma (****¼)
-[ DG: USA ENTER THE DRAGON] - Yamato vs. BxB Hulk (****¼)
-[ROH TAKE NO PRISONERS] Tyler Black & KENTA vs. Austin Aries & Katsuhiko Nakajima (****¼)
-[ROH RISING ABOVE] I QUIT MATCH: Jimmy Jacobs vs. Austin Aries (****¼)
-[TNA GENESIS] - Kurt Angle vs. Jeff Jarrett (****¼)
-[TNA GENESIS] - X-Division Title Match: Alex Shelley vs. Chris Sabin (****¼)
-[TNA SLAMMIVERSARY] X-Division King of the Mountain Match: Suicide vs. Lethal vs. Creed vs. Sabin vs. Shelley (****¼)
-[WWE NO WAY OUT] THE RAW ELIMINATION CHAMBER (****¼)
2009 PPV MVP AWARDS: Not every PPV will have one, it just depends on who I think steps up and deserves some extra recognition.
-[TNA GENESIS] Sabin, Shelley, Angle and Jarrett Rocking The House
-[ROH RISING ABOVE] Danielson and McGuinness - Defining the ROH World Title
-[WWE ROYAL RUMBLE] RVD The Joke Pays Off
-[WWE NO WAY OUT] EDGE The Ultimate Opportunist
-[WWE WRESTLEMANIA] HBK and The Undertaker Stealing the Show
-[ROH CAGED COLLISION] Nigel McGuinness Better Than You Sugar Nuts
-[TNA LOCKDOWN] - Christopher Daniels Pulling Double Duty
-[WWE BACKLASH] Edge and John Cena Stealing the Show
-[TNA SACRIFICE] The TNA Roster Making the Best Out of Shitty Booking
-[WWE EXTREME RULES] Rey, Jericho, Edge and Hardy They Are Awesome
-[TAKE NO PRISONERS] Tyler Black, KENTA, Austin Aries and Katsuhiko Nakajima Main Event Excellence
-[TNA SLAMMIVERSARY] Daffney and Taylor Wilde Two Hardcore Bitches
-[WWE THE BASH] Rey Mysterio vs. Chris Jericho Making the Show Worth It
-[WWE NIGHT OF CHAMPIONS] CM Punk Solidifying His Spot
-[TNA HARD JUSTICE] The Terror Dome Guys Continuing to deliver despite the booking of the division
-[WWE SUMMERSLAM] CM Punk and Jeff Hardy THIS IS AWESOME!
-[DG: USA ENTER THE DRAGON] The Entire PPV Roster Redefining PPV
-[WWE BREAKING POINT] Randy Orton vs. John Cena I QUIT!
-[TNA NO SURRENDER] AJ Styles Champion Again
-[WWE HELL IN A CELL] Dolph Ziggler vs. John Morrison Stepping Up
-[TNA BOUND FOR GLORY] Matt Morgan Finally Stepping Up
-[WWE BRAGGING RIGHTS] John Cena and Randy Orton Respect To The Iron Men
-[DG: USA ENTER THE DRAGON] Doi, Danielson, Richards and Shingo You Guys Are Awesome
-[TNA TURNING POINT] Kurt, Desmond, AJ, Joe and Daniels You Guys Are Awesome AS WELL
2009 TOP TV Match Rankings:
I will update as often as needed.
-Kurt Angle vs. AJ Styles (Impact: 010.16.09) {****½}
-Bryan Danielson vs. Tyler Black (ROH on HDNet: 07.25.09) {****½ }
- Roderick Strong & Bryan Danielson vs. The American Wolves (ROH on HDNet: 11.09.09) {****}
-Bryan Danielson vs. Austin Aries (ROH on HDNet: 10.19.09) {****}
-STEEL CAGE MATCH: Jeff Hardy vs. CM Punk - (Smackdown: 08.28.09) {****}
-Jeff Hardy vs. John Morrison - (Smackdown: 07.31.09) {****}
-Edge vs. Rey Mysterio - (Smackdown: 06.05.09) {****}
-Bryan Danielson vs. Tyler Black (ROH on HDNet: 04.25.09) {****}
-Evan Bourne vs. John Morrison - (ECW: 04.14.09) {****}
-Christian vs. Jack Swagger - (ECW: 02.24.09) {****}
-Shawn Michaels vs. John Cena - (Raw: 01.12.09) {****}
-Christian vs. Chris Jericho - (ECW: 10.20.09) {***¾}
- KENTA vs. Chris Hero (ROH on HDNet: 10.12.09) {***¾}
-Jerry Lynn vs. Tyler Black (ROH on HDNet: 09.07.09) {***¾}
-Christian vs. Zack Ryder - (ECW: 07.28.09) {***¾}
- Jeff Hardy vs. Chris Jericho - (Smackdown: 07.24.09) {***¾}
-Edge vs. John Morrison - (Smackdown: 06.12.09) {***¾}
-Edge vs. Jeff Hardy vs. CM Punk - (Raw: 06.08.09) {***¾}
-Edge vs. Jeff Hardy - (Smackdown: 06.12.09) {***¾}
-CM Punk vs. Chris Jericho - (Superstars: 05.21.09) {***¾}
-Bryan Danielson vs. Tyler Black (ROH on HDNet: 05.09.09) {***¾}
-Bryan Danielson vs. Austin Aries (ROH on HDNet: 04.04.09) {***¾}
-Beer Money vs. Team Canada (Impact: 02.19.09) {***¾}
-Kurt Angle vs. AJ Styles (Impact: 01.22.09) {***¾}
Posted By: Guest#3265 (Guest) on November 16, 2009 at 11:15 PM
WWE is still beating them all though.
Posted By: Miz fan (Guest) on November 16, 2009 at 11:47 PM
So Untouchable was awesome, Turning Point was awesome, can Survivor Series continue this streak of awesomness? One look at the card says yes. Let's hope they can do it.
Posted By: Phil (Guest) on November 16, 2009 at 11:50 PM
I think Untouchable would have come off a lot better if they had rearranged the matches.
Posted By: AngryTas (Guest) on November 16, 2009 at 11:57 PM
A 9.0 for a two-match show?
Wow, TNA bias confirmed.
Posted By: Peep#3835 (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 12:06 AM
Hey Larry, just a thought but maybe its time for another R. There's an R that's worse than wrong so how about one that's better than right? It would be rarified air reserved for truely great matches and unforgetable moments. Taker/HBK and last nights 3way would fit this potential 5th R nicely. A possible name could be "Righteous", or any number of other clever titles that you and the braintrust can dream up.
Posted By: gbh1978 (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 12:18 AM
I think Untouchable would have come off a lot better if they had rearranged the matches.
Posted By: AngryTas (Guest) on November 16, 2009 at 11:57 PM
true remember TNA Genesis this year? 2 matches with over 4 stars but TNA chose to have a stupid main event so it didnt come off as good as it should have
Posted By: Guest#4728 (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 12:58 AM
A 9.0 for a two-match show?
Wow, TNA bias confirmed.
Posted By: Peep#3835 (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 12:06 AM
----------------------------------------
Sorry there were 8 matches on the ppv.
Posted By: Guest#0982 (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 02:02 AM
A 9.0 for a two-match show?
Wow, TNA bias confirmed.
Posted By: Peep#3835 (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 12:06 AM
Hey, although i think it was a really good show, Larry Csonka and Lansdell have been know for being bias to TNA so get used to that, lol
Posted By: ljd smalls (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 02:12 AM
A 9.0 for a two-match show?
Wow, TNA bias confirmed.
Posted By: Peep#3835 (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 12:06 AM
lol dumbass. 5 3*+ matches sounds like a pretty good PPV to me. You're probably just butthurt that whatever company you blindly follow hasn't produced a PPV as good as Turning Point this year.
Posted By: Guest#5374 (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 02:25 AM
Hey Larry, just a thought but maybe its time for another R. There's an R that's worse than wrong so how about one that's better than right? It would be rarified air reserved for truely great matches and unforgetable moments. Taker/HBK and last nights 3way would fit this potential 5th R nicely. A possible name could be "Righteous", or any number of other clever titles that you and the braintrust can dream up.
Posted By: gbh1978 (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 12:18 AM
Agreed. This column, by nature, features the negatives, by only one category as being 'good'.
A 9.0 for a two-match show?
Wow, TNA bias confirmed.
Posted By: Peep#3835 (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 12:06 AM
I don't care for ratings and stars and such, but I will agree that the show only had its' two main events to fall back on. Outside of the amazing main events, it was nothing special featuring 2 women matches, 6 man borefest with a usual swerve and a worse Steiner/Lashley brawl.
Posted By: WATTRYYY (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 02:27 AM
I ordered Turning Point which was the first TNA PPV for me and enjoyed nearly all of it, especially of course the two main events.
However coming from years of watching WWE PPV's I really noticed the lack of polish in the production values but that will come with time as they grow and have more funds to invest in that area
The thing that did really stand out was the lack of crowd noise?! I don't know if it was the guys in the production truck failing, the venue being terrible for its atmosphere or just the crowd itself but it really dragged on me.
I thought the triple threat was the best I've personally seen since the WMXX main event but the difference in crowd and atmosphere could not be further apart! (Original) ECW showed a tiny venue and cheap as production can still get an amazing atmosphere across.
Oh well I still enjoyed it and maybe in time if they can keep putting on shows like this (we can dream can't we?) then the rabid crowd noise will come too.
Posted By: Pidgeo (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 03:12 AM
It's so sad when these WWE fanboys can't stand seeing TNA get credit where credit is due. Turning Point may only be remembered for those two matches, but the difference between those matches and any of the garbage WWE puts up will be that YEARS from now, wrestling fans will remember those two matches, something the WWE could never do.
Posted By: Orlando (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 09:51 AM
The PPV rankings alone show the best and worst of TNA. While WWE walks the middle of the road pretty consistently, the fact that TNA puts on both the 2 best and 2 worst PPVs of the year (of the "Big 2" -- I like DGUSA, but not having to contend with weekly scheduling makes their job somewhat easier) shows how bipolar they can be.
I just hope they stick to the "high" side of the scale from now on.
"A 9.0 for a two-match show?
Wow, TNA bias confirmed.
Posted By: Peep#3835 (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 12:06 AM"
But I guess you have no problem with No Way Out being given an 8.0?
It only had 2 great matches with just over 4 stars (less than both of the Turning Point matches), 1 good match with 3 stars, and 2 bad 1-star matches.
Turning Point had 2 great matches (both of which were better than their NWO counterparts), 4 good matches with 2 3/4 - 3 1/4 stars, and 2 bad matches. For less money than the WWE PPV.
So, yeah, I'd say it was a fair judgement. Especially since most PPVs are remembered by the quality of their main events, and these both delivered in spades, as well as having a decent undercard that didn't drag it down in the least.
Posted By: Jimbob Jones (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 10:18 AM
Good stuff Larry, on the money as always.
Posted By: Bruno (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 10:46 AM
You know what really sucks about PPV's in today's market - you never know when it would be worth buying a PPV until it's over.
I would spend $15-$30 on a PPV if I thought it would be excellent or important. Problem is - there is only 2 PPV's out there that I know, in advance, will fit that bill (Royal Rumble and Wrestlemania).
Wouldn't it be great if a company would produce a consistently great PPV product rather than it be hit or miss month after month?
TNA - they do two solid PPV's back to back - and I think that if the card looks good, I might buy their next event.
But with WWE (and I am more of a WWE fan), I can't get excited about any of their PPV's except for WM and RR.
I want two things for my PPV. (1) I want great wrestling. (2) I want to see something that I won't see on free TV.
Right now - TNA seems to be delivering that. TNA is setting up their matches, delivering matchups that haven't been done dozens of times, and the quality of the matches has been above average or better. WWE is the same old/same old. Their best matches are more "story" than wrestling - which is fine for free TV - but free TV should lead towards epic wrestling matches. And it's not.
Posted By: SpankyHamm (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 11:24 AM
Turning Point was a solid PPV with 2 really good matches. I wouldn't rank it a 9. I'd give it an 8 (8.5 at the very best).
I wouldn't have put Red/Homicide or Team 3D-Rhino/Morgan-SuperMex-POPE in the Rights, maybe puRgatory. Shit I fell asleep during the 6man tag match.
The PPV had two damn near flawless matches that made the show. That's not a 9 in the book of Fag.
Posted By: Big Fat Fag (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 12:48 PM
I think I agree with the Untouchable ratings, in that I liked Danielson/Doi better than Davey/Shingo, both were fucking spectacular, but neither were quite 5 star. I feel like Davey/Shingo was a tad underrated, but I have no way to logistically quantify that, so...I don't know what my point was. I do know that when the end of the year comes, I marked way harder for Davey/KENTA than for that match.
Haven't seen Turning Point yet but I plan on rectifying that soon.
Posted By: The REAL MP (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 12:51 PM
Oh, and the guy who disagreed with the Untouchable match order was spot on. That was the only thing that kept the show from being better than Enter the Dragon, in my opinion.
I have no idea what Gabe was thinking sticking the tag match at the end. It was a good match and all, but it was just left out there to die like Hunter/Jericho from WMX8 or Hunter/Orton from WM25.
Posted By: The REAL MP (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 12:54 PM
as long as HBK vs taker exists, none of those matches can be considered MOTY
Posted By: Guest#3126 (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 01:10 PM
So Larry, would you explain why Doi/Danielson and AJ/Joe/Daniels missed the full boat? Or do you just want to make Taker/Michaels MOTY no matter what?
Posted By: Guest#5330 (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 01:25 PM
WWE is still beating them all though.
Posted By: Miz fan (Guest) on November 16, 2009 at 11:47 PM
WRONG!
-DG: USA ENTER THE DRAGON {9.9}
-DG: USA OPEN THE UNTOUCHABLE GATE {9.5 }
-TNA TURNING POINT {9.0}
-TNA BOUND FOR GLORY {8.1}
-ROH RISING ABOVE {8.0}
-WWE NO WAY OUT {8.0}
Posted By: Fail (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 01:29 PM
TURNING POINT & BOUND FOR GLORY > ANY WWE PPV
Posted By: TNA > WWE (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 01:37 PM
A 9.0 for a two-match show?
Wow, TNA bias confirmed.
Posted By: Peep#3835 (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 12:06 AM
If he's biased towards TNA then why would he have shortchanged the mainevent of the 5 stars that it was? The triple threat was far better than Taker/HBK.
Posted By: bs (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 01:40 PM
as long as HBK vs taker exists, none of those matches can be considered MOTY
Posted By: Guest#3126 (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 01:10 PM
WRONG!
AJ vs Daniels vs Joe 2 is the current MOTY for me. *****
Taker/HBK was way too predictable and the biggest spot was botched. ****
Posted By: Guest#0663 (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 01:44 PM
To those WWE Fanboys complaining about TNA getting great reviews for a "two match show", I have two words for you:
Wrestlemania Ten.
Posted By: Guest#3610 (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 01:51 PM
Thanks for all of the comments.
#1. I know Chris gave the main event *****, I just didn't feel that it got there.
#2. Most other places rated the three way ****1/2.
#3. I plan to rewatch Taker vs. HBK this weekend to see how it stands up. As it says, I can and tend to change ratings of matches and shows through out the year as I watch them again,
Posted By: The King of 411~! (Registered) on November 17, 2009 at 02:46 PM
If there was any ppv in the past 3 years from TNA that I would recommend to a biased fan of anything else, Turning Point would be it. Top to bottom just a good show and two great matches that heavily outweigh the little bit of bad that we did get. If you're just a fan of wrestling, forget all of the blind loyalty to WWE or TNA or ROH, if u just enjoy being entertained by wrestling, Turning Point is for you.
Posted By: bighustle (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 11:06 PM
Just goes to show that whatever you wrestling nerds like doesn't mean good things for the company - hence why the WWE doesn't listen to you.
You've given a rating of 9's to these 2 PPV's yet it won't mean a thing for the business it just gives you wrestling nerds a hard on
Posted By: Guest#2517 (Guest) on November 18, 2009 at 04:42 AM
It's so sad when these WWE fanboys can't stand seeing TNA get credit where credit is due. Turning Point may only be remembered for those two matches, but the difference between those matches and any of the garbage WWE puts up will be that YEARS from now, wrestling fans will remember those two matches, something the WWE could never do.
Posted By: Orlando (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 09:51 AM
Turning Point will only be remembered by the IWC, nobody cares about TNA in the real world, the only way TNA will become successful is if they do the opposite of what the IWC says - great wrestling doesn't equal ratings
Posted By: Guest#2059 (Guest) on November 18, 2009 at 04:48 AM
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