Five-Star Conversation 11.25.09: Monday NyQuil!

Posted by Geoff Eubanks on 11.25.2009

Vince tries out some new blood in the guise of Jesse Ventura and we close the Jericho topic.



Forgive me my tardiness this week, as well as the fact that this will not be the usual tome. I've been flat on my back since Thursday night with a cold that's wandering around my body, throat and head like Jews in the desert. I finally seem to be coming out of it, thus I'm getting this far, but I'm certainly nowhere near where I usually am for this weekly task. That said, here's my version of MONDAY NyQUIL!


No, I don't mean to imply that Monday's three-hour edition of Raw was anything like what Superstar Steve Austin thought of Eric Bischoff's Nitro back in 1996, just that I was soaked in Cherry NyQuil as I watched Raw, so my thoughts might be a little blurry.

Ah, here comes a typically chipper and jovial Randy Orton. You know I'm quite frankly amazed that Kofi Kingston, seemingly out of nowhere, is getting the opportunity to shine in such a manner as we've seen him these last several weeks, and especially at the expense of a young-though-established character like Orton. Let me pose a question to you, readers, the main fear that prevents more established personalities such as The Undertaker and Triple H, The IWC's favorite whipping boys, from putting over a youngster like Kingston is that they're afraid they'll lose their spot, that combined with the fear that the kid'll soil their reputation if they flop or go the path of a Lesnar or Lashley. The question is, do you think Orton has suffered from giving so much to Kingston? If so, how? If not, why not?

I love how Orton comes out and says, "I know I'm not supposed to face John Cena for the title anymore…" Yeah, but by POPULAR DEMAND…I want a shot! I swear, with that one sentence, Raw lost ¾ of the entire IWC, who turned off their TVs and ran to the message boards to complain about the same thing happening again even after THEY said it wouldn't be!!!

Well, this prompts the entrance of this week's guest GM, The World's Most Dangerous Chin Cleft, Jesse The Body The Governor Ventura, who claims he's dressed, not like a governor tonight, but like a professional wrestler! I was gonna suggest a molasses-glazed alligator, but who am I to argue with a Navy Seal? Ventura tells Orton he reminds him of himself back in the day (give or take a few feather boas and dangly earrings and other femmey festoonery). Then Jess proclaims that he, basically, has been reading the comments here at 411, saying that people are tired of seeing the same old people at the top of the card fighting over the WWET and that he's going to spark a revolution! A tournament will ensue, comprised solely of those who have never been allowed the right to challenge for a world title in WWE, the winners will all meet for a battle royal at the end of the night and the winner will be named the new #1 Contender! My first thought is, Hmm, I wonder if Kofi might win…?

Favorite signs of the night: Beth Phoenix is my dad - - Big Show ate my turkey. Shame neither performer was in attendance that night.

I further am encouraged to consider that Kingston will win the evening's efforts when his match against Dolph Ziggler, is the first of the tournament, thereby giving him plenty of time to rest to pull off a spectacular performance in the battle royal at the end of the night. I'm even more convinced I'm right when Mr. Ziggles works the entire match, allowing Koingston to chill and be "stretched", required only to come back and hit Trouble In Paradise for the pinfall. (BTW, I HATE The Boom Drop, but it looked awesome when Kingston put Orton through that table last week at MSG!)

Then I consider, what if Orton finds some way to interfere in the battle royal and screw Kingston out of his chance to meet Cena for the strap? The fact that Orton walked right past Kingston as the latter made his way to the ring earlier and didn't pounce him made me consider that Orton had a greater plan at work, hatching an "If I don't get the shot, neither do you!" kind of mentality. This would allow Kingston's popularity to continue to gather momentum, facing a hated heel against whom he already has some mileage, thus this program sees completion before Kingston moves up the card, while allowing another character, most likely a heel, considering Cena and Taker's shared face statuses, to get the nod?

Enter Sheamus. I could watch that footage of The Celtic Warrior kicking Lawler's head off his shoulders all night. I was stoked to see Sheamus square off against Finlay, but was bummed that it was such a short-lived affair. Obviously, we knew Sheamus was going over, but this had some real potential for a great and memorable FIGHT. Hopefully we'll see more in their regard!

But you know one thing I can't help but reflect upon, even in my doped up state, is how JBL would have built that match as opposed to the benign statistician report we got from Cole Slaw and Lawler. JBL would have juxtaposed the young and hungry nature of newly-arrived-on-Raw Sheamus, fighting for his first opportunity to challenge for a title in the big leagues and Finlay's thirty year career having never held such an honor, making us believe that maybe the old guy could pull it off (although, granted, I don't know that even JBL might have had the time to establish that in the time provided for this virtual squash). Also…now repercussions on Sheamus for having attacked Mark Eton last week? Notwithstanding, though, Sheamus became my new favorite if Orton and Kingston would prove to factor one another out.

I'm wondering what people think of Punk kinda just hanging out in limbo the way he is currently, getting by on dropping super obnoxious promos. Is it obvious we're stalling to get to another cycle of booking that finds him to be more included or is this critical character establishment? Because I find myself wanting to catcall the screen, owing to how great Punk is in this role. "No, straight-edge doesn't mean you're better than me, it means that I didn't have gin-soaked dad who beat the taste of liquor out of my mouth when I was a kid, but apparently, straight-edge has nothing against turning your body into walking product placement for another company that produces a body-rotting product." But since when does straight-edge equate to not over-eating or using antacid?!

Still, a fun match between Punk and John Cena that reminded me a lot of a similar such match on 2009 Draft Raw between Cena and the then-Great White Hope Jack Swagger, with the same outcome, although I see Punk fairing quite a bit better in the coming year than has Swagger. I maintain, though, that there's no way Punk should have made that bottom rope while suffering in The STF, considering Cena's control of the situation and his far superior upper body strength, but I quibble.

Wow, speaking of Swagger, poor Jack is already tantamount on the Rawster to Chavo Guerrero and Chris Masters? OUCH. Very ouch, baby. Gotta love the "Steroids!" chant when Masters gets in the ring, too. Cole and Lawler quip about Vince & Ventura reuniting to call the battle royal later in the evening. "Wow!" exclaims Lawler, "one went on to be Governor and the other went on to be a billionaire! What's that say about us?!" Well, since one of you couldn't even manage to secure the mayor's seat of Memphis, which is a shame, because Roman Polanski could use all the help in power he can get now…

As anyone with a lick of sense would have predicted, The Braid Brigade walked easily with this "let's pad out the battle royal" match. Again, merely a quibble, but didn't Mark Henry challenge Kurt Angle at Royal Rumble 2006 for The World Heavyweight Title? Wouldn't that disqualify him from competing, or is this another example of Ventura making rules to break them…and isn't that DX's gimmick…?

See, Ventura decided to acquiesce and allow the persistent Orton into the tournament because he likes Orton's style, IF he could manage to defeat Evan Bourne, and if, when Bourne's music hits and you're not wondering, "Hmm, who is ol' Sydel gonna make look good in defeat this week?", you're just not paying attention (that, and, if you wanna get smoked out after the show, you know who to "sydel" up to). Of course, there went Orton to the battle royal and there went Sheamus to the TLC main event in my mind.

The 2009 model of D-Generation-X. And Mini-Me. In Little People's Court. Lord help us.

Well. The Marine 2 looks…Marine-y. Apparently, all acting in this film is handled by the hot blond chick and Ted DiBiase is there to look moody and confused (Hey, it worked for Robert Paddington Bear or whatever that so-called vampire's name is). Thank God we took two months off DiBiase's establishment time in the company to film this hunk of "Made for USA Network" stinkburger.

I wonder who was in the Gobbledy Gooker suit now that Hector Guerrero is with TNA? Did Chavo pull double-duty? Make the fam proud, Shabbo. Oh, hot damn, Maryse is back as The Gooker! And she beat Melina unconscious…with the Gooker suit! Well, this segment wasn't a total loss!

You know compared with the pedestrian match we got from DX and The Hart Legacy, I almost would have preferred a big mic segment where HBK and Tri berated the kids about having proven their dominance over the last generation of Harts, they may as well do it to this generation, too. THD never really got out of the box, even though the first half of the match was devoted to them working over HBK as the face-in-peril. THD has really been gelling on the fast track to working like the proverbial well-oiled machine, but that just wasn't the case tonight, not before HHH was tagged in and it was all over but the Pedigree-ing.

Then Chris Jericho hit the stage alone (Show is due for knee surgery, so don't expect JeriShow to keep the belts at TLC. Damn, Jericho gores through partners like Spinal Tap goes through drummers!) to display his confidence and to continue to bring a level of seriousness to the tag belts that we've not seen in a LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONELY TIME, which is why I'm going to be so sad to see him drop them in three weeks (unless he's allowed to score The WT off Taker…I know, I busted a gut, too). Great promo from Jericho.

Batista continues to roll on the right side of booking as he absolutely demolished Rey Mysterio the night before at Survivor Series (working an injury angle for still another injury on his left knee), warning anyone on the SD! roster to stay out of his way, because he's on a beeline to rip the belt from around The Dead Man's waist, which is fine by me. Taker's been gaining momentum as he heals and the new pissed off and driven Batista combined with their great series of matches a couple years ago could harbor some fun results.

Of course, Kane comes out to run interference for his big brother, as usual. Kane is to Taker as John The Baptist was to Jesus Christ. He goes beforehand to make the presence known, yet always ends up beheaded for the cause. I like that Big Dave smirked and backed off Kane tonight because it makes everyone think he's afraid of Kane, when he's actually plotting a course of navigation for the next act. See, this is the return of the thinking man's behemoth, what I thought we were going to get when Batista left Evolution. I'm interested.

Cryme Tyme was doomed from the beginning. With Orton already having qualified, to consider that Legay wouldn't too…come on. This was a piss break.

Dear Santino. You were upstaged by Vickie Guerrero. Time to join Hogan in Australia…?

And just as predicted, Orton and Kingston, in the end, pretty well cancelled one another out, as Kingston was too preoccupied lording over his rival to recall the Malevolent Irish Ghost lurking behind him, Sheamus dumping him easily to advance to the main event at TLC. I really did love the commentary between Vince and Ventura, because anytime I get to hear someone get away with telling Vince to shut up is a great day in front of the tube, although, in classic fashion, they missed the fact that Sheamus was hanging back and biding his time in the corner for virtually the entire battle royal! How do you miss him? He's like someone's drying laundry on a line in the corner! Sure Jess, give Orton props for hanging out on the floor when he's out of the shot, but never mind the guy in the ring doing the same thing. It was one thing to hide Santina Marella in the Divas battle royal at WreslteMaina, but, like I said, you kinda can't miss Sheamus.

And then the end. All in all, good idea, pushed WAAAAY too fast, but then when you only give yourself three weeks between PPVs, and you're finally giving the new blood a shot, what can you do? It was a nice idea, having Ventura try to stir the pot, and Cena did a great job trying to make the fans care, but in the end, it was to much too fast and WWE is really going to have to be clever in the coming weeks to pull this off successfully.

All in all, Raw this week made me feel as if WWE is like that high profile high school jock who's finally coming to grips with the fact that he likes guys. Oh, sure, he has his long established trophy girlfriend who's given him a lot of mileage and she's been faithful, but he realizes that she's not going to be his future and that he needs to start…dabbling. But in the end, he just can't commit to this scary new lifestyle, so it's back to the safety zone. Vince. Come out of the closet and commit.



COMMENTPALOOZA!
Who knows, but anyone who would write a column titled that in order to fuel the fires of race/sexuality hate CLEARLY is though. After you wrote this did you go burn down some black churches and shoot up some gay night clubs? You should be ashamed.
Posted By: Guest#6530

Can I ask why your viewpoint would be different?
Posted By: jeff

The first comment was my favorite of the week, and there were a lot from which to choose this week, thank you, friends, a record, as a matter of fact, unless I'm mistaken. To answer jeff first, because, as we've discussed here in the past, I believe I'm the only openly gay columnist in the wrestling zone, so it would stand to reason that my opinion might be a little skewed than that of the majority of another columnists.

As for the first one, not only did I not shoot up a gay night club, I went to one, The Abbey, which I've mentioned here in 5SC many times (which was just voted Best Gay Bar in the World by Logo viewers, BTW), and was warmly greeted as the regular that I am by two bartenders, three members of the wait staff and both managers before sitting at my table and performing my weekly moratorium of the column I will have just submitted as I knock back a couple martinis. You sure got me pegged, buddy.

Why is this still being discussed? GLAAD had to call out Jericho with their idiocy last week and the Arab guy posted a video about it.

Stop trying to draw attention to it. It's not relevant anymore and it will no doubt draw in actual racists and homophobes to post obscene comments (90% of the people who post on here have no manners), based on a drunken stage moment by Jericho.
Posted By: Guest#3204

Why is this still being discussed?

He was playing to his character. 20 years ago, any heel would do the same. If this was back in the 80s, it'd probably be Piper up there doing the exact same thing, and we'd be praising him for it.

Seriously folks, get over it.
Posted By: ZeroVX

I think Jericho is a disgrace. Yes, he's racist and homophobic and if all these white, straight IWC dickheads would look past their Jericho-tinted-glasses they'd see that. If this was Bastisteroids that did this, you'd all be calling for his head, you hypocrites. Honestly, I hope he ends up on the streets, the bum, clawing for every penny, that'll teach him for disgracing our TV sets.

Seriously, Jericho, fuck off and die!
Posted By: Sable's Mom

It's still being discussed because, at 53 comments, there were plenty of people who had an opinion, one way or another, about the individual/topic at hand, the first two of thee comments, included.

I have to admit, GLAAD can be like any group and take things too far, or make comments based upon misinformation (remember the egg they had on their face when they praised WWE for the Billy & Chuck commitment ceremony, not realizing it was, well, like any WWE wedding…?). Like those other groups, the majority, at least, I truly believe they have the best intentions at heart, they can go beyond the lines of reason. I'm not necessarily saying they did such here, though, and I'd certainly rather have them around than not!

The dichotomy existing between, Had Piper/Batista said what Jericho said, we'd be praising/cursing him, is interesting. I, for one, stopped and thought, okay, what if Hogan had said this? Would I be able to maintain such an even keel, especially since I do think Jericho was playing this in character (much in the same way that I felt the incident from a while back where he "assaulted" a fan was similarly played)?



And, yes, had this incident occurred with Hogan rather than Jericho, I'd have been screaming for his shiny head on a platter. The difference, though, is that I'm a whole lot more capable to believe Jericho would play something like this in character, as opposed to Hogan, for example, because Hogan would just be stoked on soaking up adulation, not in being clever. The fact that Jericho took his cleverness to a different level is unfortunate, but I can see the fun in it for a start.

I always wonder about the people who actually take life lessons from South Park. It's a funny show and all, but Jesus Christ...

Like, Gob Bluth is a funny character and all, but you don't see me running around on a Segway like an asshole do you?
Posted By: The REAL MP

The idea that a racist term makes you a racist is totally asinine. It happened earlier this year with Anton Du Beke saying someone looked 'like a Paki'. This led to a massive witchhunt against him even though he apologised profusely, the woman in question wasn't offended by it, and it was a private conversation and would not even have been known to the public if someone hadn't leaked it. Jericho's case is slightly different in that it WAS broadcast, and the person he called a fag is apparently acting like a fag about it, but it's still being blown out of all proportion.

In fact, I wonder if that South Park episode about the Harley riders being called fags was anything to do with Jericho? The argument was 'you can be gay without being a fag, and you can be a fag without being gay. If you are both gay and a fag, then you are a gay fag.' The same applies here. Clearly, from his response to the situation, whichever Z-list presenter Jericho called a fag is a massive fag.
Posted By: Bimmy

I find Bimmy's comment quite interesting. "The idea that a racist term makes you a racist." Hmm. I suppose that could be so, depending upon the company you make the comment in and in what spirit said comment is intended. For instance, I have all kinds of friends, male, female, straight, gay, who know they can call me a fag, and, if meant in the intention of good-natured ribbing, it can be well-deserved and quite a laugh and it means nothing. Juxtapose that with some of the thirty-or-so comments that were submitted and were deemed unsuitable for our site, well, that's a different story.

A good friend of mine, a black woman, laid out a pretty good bottom line: Excepting the circumstance I detail above, where select company is friendly and tight, if your funny-yet-off-color joke can't be told in the company of a member of the group the joke is about, then your funny-yet-off-color joke is more offensive and hurtful than it is funny-yet-off-color. Coming from a black woman, a minority double-whammy, I, as a honky-white man (gay, though I am), I look to that guideline to control my Jericho-like tongue, myself.

As far as The REAL MP, This is much less the fact that I take life lessons from South Park (I always looked to Absolutely Fabulous for those, actually), than acknowledging, appreciating and referring to brilliant social satire, which is how I see South Park. Dating back to European theatre, English, French, even back as far as ancient Greece, examples of farcical satire as existed to parody in larger than life terms our own society such that we might see how foolish we as human beings can sometimes behave ourselves, a definite case of art imitating (and then taking the piss out of) life. There's a difference there and if you fail to recognize that, sad on you, bro.

He only is if you're a weak minded Politically Correct Jackass.

Posted By: MichiyoYoshiku (Guest) on November 17, 2009 at 09:38 AM

i agree. he called someone a fag, big deal, people need to get over it, everyone is so friggin PC nowadays, people get called fags all the time, unless the guy he called a fag is gay, than it really doesnt matter, and if the guy is gay, than oh well. .... long live Jericho
Posted By: akimbo

So you would feel the same if he called someone a gook or nigger or kyke? It must be ok b/c you are not gay.
Posted By: Guest#4063

"PEOPLE GET CALLED FAGS ALL THE TIME"... I love that rationality... "911; how may I help you..? -- Ma'am, just chill out; burglars steal stuff all the time! Long live Jericho!"
Posted By: KanyonKreist

I agree that there is way too much emphasis placed upon being politically correct in America (how is it in other countries, my international friends?), but that's because of two things: 1) Hurtful comedy has come en vogue yet is only such when it's funny, because, like any weapon, can only be used properly when in knowing hands, and, 2) as a result, everyone is scared of getting their little feelings hurt and feel as if their case is special and requires coddling. Here's another good, general rule of thumb, not to sound preachy – Making fun of a person's asinine life choices and general poor aptitude? FUNNY.



Belittling someone for their genetic code, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, physical or mental handicaps, etc.? NOT COOL. Unless you're with your friends. Then let ‘er rip.

For instance, do we laugh at this clip because 1) this meteorologist goes from manly to nelly in 0.2 seconds? Because he's flaming freaking out on a live televised broadcast? Or because he's just plain nelly?



I remember Jericho used to call himself the "ayatollah of rock and rollah." Well, I have some middle-eastern friends, so I went and looked up what that meant. I then actually e-mailed Chris and asked him to stop using that since I thought it was racist and I'd prefer as a fan he doesn't even show the hint of that. This was a really long time ago, he probably actually did read his e-mails back then.

I never got a response but, I have never actually heard him use that phrase again, when he had been using it every week and in every appearance before that. I don't know Chris personally, and it could all just be a coincidence, but that's the honest truth on my end.

I thought he made worse comments from how people were reacting but those weren't a big deal. I have quite a few homosexual friends and even they use the terms "fag" and "homo" to refer to people at times negatively. I personally try to avoid using negative words and being negative in general, but you can't just put blinders on and try to impute that on everybody else.

I will say though that as a pro wrestler, I'm surprised Jericho wasn't smarter about that. I was a semi-pro fighter and nobody ever used the hint of a racial slur or sexual slur in any confrontation or anything. I figured wrestling would be kind of the same since they sort of fight, but maybe it isn't.
Posted By: Guest#8756

With respect to the "Ayatollah of Rock & Roll-ah" thing, who can say? I've never heard him address that subject in any of his interviews (certainly not that I've seen or heard them all!) or in his book, but who knows? He could very well have not realized what he was saying and had many similar-such e-mails and opted to quietly remove that from his act? If so, good on ya!

Well, I for one, appreciate the fact that you had good sense enough not to include such speech into your vocabulary. I mean, there's so many reasons to hate people individually, must we single out race or gender or orientation? LOL! Besides, if you're a semi-pro fighter, throwing around that kind of language, you could find yourself in a whole lot more fights for which you pay, as opposed to the other way around!

The REAL question, though, is how many people actually, say, look at me and think, "Hmph. FAG," and yet are all hunky-friggin-dory to my face? I actually have a little more respect for those who at least lay it on the line and let me know how they feel about me, as opposed to hide it behind a mask of insincerity and political correctness. Just another thought that occurred to me.

If you read Jericho's book I am sure you will find many stories involving things that no racist or homophobe would find themselves doing.

Ive dropped plenty of N-bombs and gay slurs in my day yet some of my best and closest friends are black and I know a few gays too. People are too touchy in todays world. Makes me sick.
Posted By: AG Awesome

I read Jericho's book and he doesn't appear to a racist. He makes fun of himself.
Posted By: Jerr

A hardbound, first edition of Jericho's book stands on the shelf under my TV at the foot of my bed, and you guys bring up another great point about Jericho's humor, in that, sometimes, those who poke fun at themselves feel all right with poking fun at others because they demean themselves. If I make myself fair game, why, then, everyone else is, too. I get that and subscribe to that mode of thought myself, as well, within reason and I can see it being part of Jericho's, as well, although it's difficult to make that a hard-and-fast rule, not knowing the man as a person.

The thing that makes me believe he's most decidedly not a racist is that, having read his book, you realize that he's gotten to where he is today because his career has taken him literally all over the globe and into countries where he had to, at least to a certain extent, embrace myriad cultures early on, Mexico, Japan, Germany, etc. If anything, I'd think he has a greater appreciation for the people and cultures other than his own. Again, though, just an assumption.

I'm not entirely sure that Stephanie actually HAS a vision that's all that far removed from either her father's or her husband's. She already has a considerable amount of backstage power in WWE, particularly in the creative department. We've seen the fruits of that...most of the guys who're over in 2009 are the same guys who were around in 1999 and, even 1989...coincidentally, they're all either personal pals of Triple H or the McMahons, or over past any conceivable point of denial.

Right now, the only guys getting over are the ones who can adapt to having their every word and move diagrammed for them. Guys like Miz, Kofi Kingston, and to a lesser extent Morrison and Jack Swagger, seem to be able to make it work and make it their own, but not everyone gets into wrestling to be an actor, though it's a lot more necessary than it used to be.

What I'm saying is, Vince's transition of power to his daughter and son-in-law is already well underway, and not much has changed for the better. I don't expect it to once the transition is complete, either.
Posted By: BJC

I agree with the first paragraph, except to suggest, who gave her that power and who is still running the show? Are these impotent writers her idea, or is she being forced to flex her old man's muscle (EW.)? We've seen myriad examples this decade of how exactly out of touch Vince has become and how resistant he is toward anyone even gently implying that fact to him (The real reason I suspect we've seen the switch back to marketing to children, because they're much easier to manipulate and thus to please). The fact that Stephanie all but begged Paul Heyman to remain part of WWE back when it would seem he left for good displays to me that she "gets it" in a way her old man is too proud to allow himself to see, because Heyman understands modern booking in a way Vince does not. If that's the case, then why shouldn't she have more of her own ideas she's unable to explore as long as she works for dear ol' dad?

I think you hit the nail in the head when you attribute Morrison's success to the fact that he appears to have managed how to make the current mode of booking work for him, still managing to imbue his own personality into that which is set forth for him, combined with his look and his ability (I'd actually switch out Swagger for The Miz in this case). That may just be the future of WWE…unless Steph and Naitch have other ideas, and, considering how Tri is such a fan of the old school NWA, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the two were simply nodding and smiling to appease the monarch, all the while pillow-talking about how they see things once they're no longer forced to bow and scrape to the old guy…? Just a thought.

Oh... and no one cares about Brock!
Posted By: Guest#3983

No, you mean to say I don't care about Brock. The fact that, hours after this column posted, Lesnar's malady was a top story on Yahoo.com, I'd suggest that more than you are concerned about his well-being. Like so many readers here at 411 (you know who you are), you might be shocked to discover that your opinion does not equate to fact.



RESPECK and a Happy Thanksgiving to all those who celebrate it! Comment and tell em what you did…hope it's a great one, at least as a good a time as Cook had at the Megadeath concert with the hot chick he met!