Ask 411 Wrestling 03.10.10: The Flight From Hell, Checking Zingers and Wrestling with... Dice?
Posted by Mathew Sforcina on 03.10.2010
Did Chris Jericho actually win the WWF Light Heavyweight Title? Did Shawn Michaels get punished for overselling against Hogan? Why do we call it a DDT? Get the answers to these questions and more in the latest edition of Ask 411 Wrestling!
Hello, and welcome to a somewhat streamlined edition of Ask 411 Wrestling! I am your usual party host Mathew Sforcina, but I'm also a guy with a workplace who needs me for a day shift. And I normally write this column into the wee hours, since my normal work hours are late anyway, hence with sleep and then work, that doesn't leave too many hours left over.
That's not very clear, so let me simplify: I can't spend too long on this, and it's too late to get someone else to do it. So this will be the first (and hopefully last) Ask 411 Wrestling Speed Run!
I'm going to spend 2 hours and try and answer as many questions as I can (which is a fraction of my usual time limit). Thusly, this week will probably be shorter, and filled with questions that don't need massive research time. Nor will there be Backtalking or Your Turn, again due to time. Next week, however, will be a double decker for both to make up for it. I apologize if this upsets you, but… I'm just a guy.
If you don't sign up, then your next X Division Champion will be Bubba The Love Sponge.
Questions, Questions, Who's Got The Questions?
Cyrith starts us off with an old, but still damm effective move.
Love the column, I was wondering about the genesis of the DDT. Obviously Jake "The Snake" gave the move its current name(at least if the story of DDT standing for Damian's Dinner Time is correct) but was he the first to use the move?
Well OK, let me cut you off there. Yes, Jake is certainly credited as the inventor or at the very least innovator of the move, but it does not stand for Damien's Dinner Time, that came afterwards. DDT was the name given to the move because of the pesticide DDT, which causes serve damage to the brain and spinal column of insects and animals, killing insects instantly, just like the move. Supposedly that's the origin of the name, the story changes every time Jake tells it. It's somewhat of an orphan acronym, not standing for anything. But Damien's Dinner Time specifically was thought up afterwards, given that at the time he ‘invented' the move, he didn't have a snake, so there was no Damien.
Personally I prefer the response he gave later on, when asked what DDT stood for.
The End.
Also does it have another name that doesn't associate it with Roberts?
I have heard it referred to as a Side Piledriver, but that was long ago when Roberts was still active and the move was still fresh. Which leads into your final section…
And finally, why does it seem anyone can call it a DDT if it was in fact coined by Roberts? You don't see other companies calling a double-underhook facebuster the Pedigree. Thanks for your time.
No you don't, but that move had/has a name prior to HHH naming it, and more importantly, Hunter's still around. Sometimes, wrestler specific names catch on and are used for a move, even if it has another name, but normally long after the wrestler has retired or faded into the background. Certainly people call is a Figure 4 Leg Lock, they don't call it a Modified Spinning Toe Hold Into A Double Leg Lock.
And heck, a wrestler doesn't have to be gone long for his move name to become generic. The F5 is now called that, regardless of who uses it.
The fact is that if someone is using that move at the time, for the competition, then a company will think up a new name. But after several years, names can stick. Hence why the DDT is still called the DDT. Because it's been several years, and that's a catchy name.
From moves to gestures with Justin.
was wondering if you know what cm punk says when he gets on the turnbuckle and gives the "safe" signal i know when he does the watch thing on the ramp he says "its clobberin time" help me out
Well he's not so much giving the safe signal as he is giving the Straight Edge signal. And thus, I have to assume he's saying "Better than you" or "Straight Edge" or words to that effect. I couldn't find clear video of him doing the signal WHILE being heel. Face periods, it seemed generic "Come on" and "I'm the champ", but as a heel, couldn't find proof. Anyone want to correct me here?
C. Clown wants to talk money.
How much money do wrestlers make per annum?
Main eventers make about 1-2 million a year, midcard guys in the 6 figures, jobbers/developmentals/women make about 30-70k, known indy names can make that or more depending on the circumstances, and your average run of the mill wrestler at your local indy fed might get a couple hundred bucks a show if he's lucky. If you work the indys, your per annum income from wrestling is directly related to how many shows you work. Higher up you get, the more guaranteed money you get.
Plus stuff like merchandise, video games, PPV payoffs, that can all inflate the figures.
Chet Lemon asks about checking zingers ahead of time.
After watching RAW tonight with the Springer segment I just had to ask. When Santino makes a comment about Brian Christopher being a screw up,is something like that planned ahead of time? does Santino sit down and ask Jerry if he can say that or how does it work?? or when Vince dissed Piper about the black hair cream or something like that, like does Vince sit down and tell Piper he is gonna say that? and also has there ever been a time a wrestler said something in an interview that someone really took exception to? Thanks
The vast majority of the time, yes, people check before hand. In the WWE certainly, when they run through the script, the writers will probably check and make sure comments like that are cool (or rather, they might just tell the talent "We'll be making this joke about you tonight"). WWE writes everything out now, so most of the time it's not the talent making the comments, they just repeat the words the writers say, so it's not their fault. Of course, sometimes as a rib they won't tell people ahead of time, and that can problems. For example, at Backlash with the Khali Kiss Cam, when Santina declared her love for JR, that was not cleared ahead of time with JR. And he was none to pleased, as you can tell when you watch it. (I couldn't find video, sorry)
As for people getting really upset, that's happened all the time in the past. The whole Shawn/Bret issue was based, in part, on Shawn and his ‘Sunny Days' comment. The nWo parody of Arn Anderson's retirement hit hard, as did Oklahoma. Scott Steiner is notorious for being on both sides of it, in that he cut ‘shoot' promos about Ric Flair that really hurt Flair's feelings, and yet, supposedly, when Bagwell made fun of him during a build up to a match they had, he was very much hurt by those comments. Thus the match is more of a beating than anything.
You can see both Steiner's beating on Bagwell and his ‘shoot' promo on Flair in this video, if you're interested.
Bash has two unrelated questions.
Hello! Love your column! Long time reader and fan!
I remember reading on the internet back in 1999 that prior to Chris Jericho's television debut in the WWF he won the Light Heavyweight Championship at a House Show. Obviously if he did then the WWF never recognized it but is there any truth to this?
Well, let's see. Chris Jericho debuted with the WWF August 9th, 1999. Checking the still superb History of WWE site, I look at the whole year of 1999 and… Nope. Jericho did not win the Light Heavyweight Title in 1999. Hell, that was well into Gillberg's ‘reign' that saw him win the title in late 1998 and then vanish until 2000 when they brought the title back and put it on Essa Rios.
Jericho wrestled on the Curtis Goes Home tribute show to Brian Curtis Hildebrand which featured some WWF guys in July, but Jericho's first official WWF appearance was when the Millennium Clock hit all zeros and he interrupted the Rock. And let's watch that again, why don't we? Hey, it's still an awesome little moment…
Jericho's first actual MATCH in the WWF was 2 weeks later, August 21st, the day before Summerslam 99, when he replaced The Rock in the main event against then Hardcore Champion Big Bossman in a non-title Nightstick match. Rock couldn't fly in due to Miami airport being closed.
My second question comes from the famous "Flight From Hell" in 2002. I remember reading that Curt Hennig and Brock Lesnar got into an impromptu wrestling match on the plane and Goldust got drunk and was singing to his ex-wife, Terri Runnels, over the airplane's intercom system. What actually happened?
Well, pretty much what you described. The Flight From Hell was a plane trip back to the US from England, after a long European tour in 2002. The Smackdown roster had visited Finland, Northern Ireland, and England in four days, having 4 events including one English only PPV. And it was a long flight back home, and given that almost the whole SD roster was on the flight, and the booze was flowing into practically every wrestler's body and thus… Stuff happened. Here's some attempt to list all the indiscretions, every one of which is, for the record, merely alleged and never proven in a court of law.
1: Ric Flair was travelling in one of his legendary robes… And nothing else, and was showing off, uh, ‘Little Naitch 2' to the stewardesses, to the point of ‘terrorising' them with it.
2: Scott Hall then got into the act as well, showing off, uh, ‘Razor's Inside Edge' to Steph.
3: Goldust, as you stated, sang a song to Terri over the PA system. Sadly the song he chose has been lost to time, but I'd like to think it was ‘Golden Slumbers' by the Beatles, or at least "The Inquiry Of Ms. Terri" from The Dear Hunter.
4: Michael Hayes chose a bad time to try and sleep, X-Pac choosing this flight to shave off Hayes' trademark mullet.
5: The biggest and most dangerous one of all was Hennig and Brock, though. Hennig apparently pushed and prodded and poked and generally demanded a shoot fight with Brock then and there. Brock agreed, and the two went at it, and at one moment during the ‘match' the two slammed, very hard, into one of the emergency doors. It held, obviously, and probably would not have opened, but still… How dumb can you get?
Suffice to say that once Vince heard about it, he was non too pleased, in fact he was, apparently, angrier than anyone had ever seen him. Hennig and Hall got fired, and everyone else got reamed out.
So remember kids, don't drink and fly with the WWE.
Sigh, if only CM Punk had been there. Still would have happened, but he could have got one hell of a promo out of it.
I'm too tired to think of comedy intros, so here's just two videos.
Brian asks about Jim Cornette being bitter. Cornette? Bitter? Say it ain't so…
How onto a question. I was watching Jim Cornette's "Guest Booker" DVD from RF Video and I heard him make a comment that I didn't quite understand. he was talking about his time in OVW working with the WWE. For some reason, me makes a big point about how the WWE sent them a new WWE-style ring (with ropes instead of cables) and Cornette said something like "I mean we are doing very good with cables, we don't NEED a ring with ropes. But we did it and of COURSE first night with the ropes, they BROKE!"
Now, is this just Cornette's bitterness at...well pretty much everyone taking hold? IF the WWE wants these guys to work for them in development, wouldn't be in their best interest to give them experience working in a WWE-style ring? Also, what exactly is the difference between a WWE ring and an Indy-style ring?
Well, there's arguments on either side on that. I've run ropes and cables, and there's not a huge amount of difference, there's a little, sure, but it's more cosmetic than anything (it feels different when you run them), and the very minor difference in jumping off them/running them you can adapt to fairly easily, so I've been told (since my moveset is somewhat grounded [but not totally, I have a second rope fallaway I've quite proud of], I've had to take my fellow worker's opinion on that matter, and they've never had a problem with it.)
But there is that difference. So you can see WWE's argument, they do want them to be comfortable in a WWE ring, so why shouldn't they be like that?
But on the other side, 2 minutes just running the ropes and doing some test jumps and you can adapt, so Jimmy has a point too.
Unless he's referring to under the ring, in which case he's totally right, you need steel cables underneath the ring to hold them together properly, but I don't think WWE are that stupid.
As for differences between the rings, apart from the size thing that we've discussed before (WWE has huge rings, comparatively), but underneath… There's several ways a ring can be built. All of them are basically the same, in terms of having supports running between the corner posts, steel bars on those supports, and then wood on top and then padding, but there's lots of different ways to have them held together and in what order and in what configuration. So by default, most indy rings will be different, even removing the size issue.
Elmuerteloco manages to drag in another of my hobbies, Gaming, into this thing…
Good Wednesday,
First time ever asking a question. Great column, man, keep it going. In the 90's there was dice game called Pro Power Championship Wrestling that you could order by mail. It was advertised in Pro Wrestling Illustrated and other Bill Apter magazines. You would use two, 6 sided dice and to my knowledge, only two versions came out. It had fantasy wrestlers like French Falcon and Ragman. Do you have any recollection of this game and if possible, would you know if there were anymore versions printed and where could I get them? Thanks for the helpful column!
Well, sadly since I wasn't into wrestling in the early 90's and had no access to the Apter mags if I wanted to, I don't have any personal recollections about the game.
However, I did find Pro Wrestling Superstar, which is a game based on the dice games, now in convenient PC game form! I haven't played the game, but it claims to be based on the old one that you're referring to and it does look like it fits the description, with 2 dice and everything.
However, if you really want to bust out some d6s and roll your way to victory or defeat, here is Powerhouses Of Wrestling! which uses some more dice but is old school in that you actually NEED dice.
But by all means, if anyone bought this game, does PWS there match up?
boy liilii wants to talk double threat teams.
hey dude i have a question that i hope you can answer.
has there ever been a team that started together, not thrown together but debuted together and both went on to being champions in single's action?
OK, here's the thing. Most of the following you can argue didn't exactly debut ‘together', but do fit together, for a given value of singles success (Stevie Rey was only WCW TV champ, but it's still a singles title). But if you want a true blue team that debuted together and was great in singles, The Hardy Boys. The rest of the following pretty much fit your question, but not totally.
The Steiner Brothers
Edge & Christian
Harlem Heat
Powerteam USA (Sting and Ultimate Warrior)
That's all I could think of off the top of my head. Judges?
Finn asks 3 questions about people leaving.
Hello Matt, I'm a longtime fan of yours. The thing about your column is that I learn something new each time, or else solve a mystery that's been bugging me for years. Definitely one of the highlights of 411mania, keep up the good work. Here are my questions.
1. Everyone knows Shawn Michaels oversold the hell out of Hogan's broken-down, doddering offense during their match at Summerslam 2005. What I'd like to know is if Shawn suffered any repercussions afterwards, because I don't think anyone making a mockery out of his opponent would be able to get away with it. Or was Shawn protected enough that he didn't get any backlash for what he did?
Sort of. I think most people were able to see what was going on, but fact was that Hogan was leaving right afterwards, HBK produced some great stuff leading into the match (in which he went in as a heel under protest) and, despite the overselling… Ah what the hell, any old excuse…
As I was saying, despite the overselling, it was still a pretty good match. And with Hogan leaving, he wasn't around to complain, so Shawn got off the hook. Had Hogan stuck around, or if Shawn had done it for no good reason (Hulk demanded the Heel/Face dynamic), or if it had been anyone other than Shawn Michaels, he would he been in trouble. But with all those, he got off the hook.
2. Why on Earth did Kurt Angle jump to TNA? Was it purely the lighter schedule of travelling only to one place for shows, or was it something more personal? It still seems shocking to me because from reading his book Vince gave Angle a chance when he was broke and desperate after not being able to cash in off the back of his Atlanta heroics, and turned him into one of the biggest and best stars in his company's history, and one of my personal favourite wrestlers.
Drugs.
Well, OK, not officially. WWE let him go, the story goes, because he refused to enter drug rehab and needed time off due to his many injures. Angle insisted he did not have a problem with the pills, and that he was OK to wrestle. WWE insisted he did have problems, Kurt didn't agree, so he left. And then went to TNA in part because of the schedual and in part because they weren't as hard-lined about the drugs.
But that's the story that floats around. Is it true? I cannot say for sure. Certainly Kurt doesn't see it that way, his stance is that he went for the lighter schedule, that he didn't want to work 300 days a year anymore. That's the ‘official' reason. Above is just the juicy gossip version.
3. In similar vein to the previous question, why did Chris Jericho leave the WWE a few years back? As I recall he was quite heavily pushed around the time. Was it simply a case of him wanting to recharge his batteries and take a break?
Bingo. He felt burnt out, and wanted some time away to recharge and heal up and generally extend his career but stepping away from it for a bit. And thank goodness he did, because ‘Hypocrite Suit Wearing Jericho' came to him during the time away, so we got him thanks to the time off.
My Damm Opinion
Matthew asks about something that I have to speculate on, hence it's in here.
Hey Matt,
Seems to me that even in this day when the business is open and exposed the wrestling community is still a very insular one. There is a strong separation between who is considered and insider and an outsider, and the idea that to earn respect a wrestler has to pay their dues first. I am curious if this attitude extends to guys who come into the business with legit amateur credentials or who come from an MMA background, especially if they get a big push from it. If a guy like Brock or Shamrock or even Sheldon comes in are they still looked at as noobs, or is there a grudging respect for the guys who can "do it for real"? Do these guys tend to get messed around with more or do the guys in the locker room think it is best to avoid a situation where they might be on the receiving end of a beating?
Well, it's more of a case by case basis. As a rule, your pre-Wrestling accomplishments don't tend to count, either positively OR negatively, most of the time. I man, if you're a convicted child murderer you're not going to get very far by all means, but guys like MVP and Booker, their criminal backgrounds as a rule would not be used against them (in any meaningful way. Many a joke would be made, but nothing concrete). Likewise, if a guy is a great football star, or a bodybuilder or whatever, those accomplishments don't tend to be viewed on as anything to be proud of, when you wrestle, you start from the ground up.
However, being able to handle yourself in a fight, be it because you're a MMA guy or if you're a brawler or if you're just bloody tough, that sort of stuff DOES get you cred, so overall an MMA guy probably would get respect out of it, but not because they are MMA, just because they are tough guys, which is because of the MMA, if that makes any sense.
But of course, even if you are a superb shoot fighter, if you're a jerk and don't shake the jobbers hands and don't watch the show you'll get crapped on regardless, because you deserve it, the locker room mentality goes.
Phil wants to talk about the Shaman Of Sexy himself.
Okay first I thank you for delivering a great article each week. Now onto my question. What are the chances that John Morrison makes it out of the mid-card and into the main event?
Well, WWE certainly WANT to push the guy, and he's got the looks and enough charisma to get him there. The problem is the moveset. A lot of guys online were calling him the next Shawn Michaels, pre and post M&M break up. And you can see the similarities, but there's one fatal flaw between them.
Shawn rarely does anything THAT super-flashy, all his stuff is simple and direct now, and he does it spot on practically every time. Every move, no matter how basic, is crisp and spot on, 99% of the time. (Everyone has bad days.)
John's moveset is wide, varied, flashy as all hell, and he misses like half the time. His finisher, Starship Pain, I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've seen him hit that well. He's like a lot of indy guys, wanting to get everything in, regardless of rhyme, reason or effectiveness.
That's really what's holding him back, the moveset. If he stopped trying to be so damm special and unique, toned down some of the more out there stuff, and worked on getting his stuff to land and make contact and generally not be all flash and no substance, he'll be a main eventer for sure. But until he does that, he'll never get above midcard. In my opinion.
And on that note, I again apologize for the shortness of this one, but Mathew Need Sleep Now. Mathew Go. Bye Bye.
Chris Masters said in an interview that he and Shawn knew they were working a program for a few weeks before it actually began....
Now HBK's story? Who knows, but anything after Hogan is a step down, so it would seem to me.....
Posted By: Mikey!!!! (Guest) on March 09, 2010 at 11:03 PM
Best Ask 411 question ever....
How can people still defend TNA and their ratings after last night?
Posted By: Chungles (Guest) on March 09, 2010 at 11:04 PM
And I'm in the background in the Rain/Melissa clip :D
Posted By: Ultima (Guest) on March 09, 2010 at 11:15 PM
Wouldn't the Rockers count for the tag team question also?
Posted By: Cory (Guest) on March 09, 2010 at 11:22 PM
HAHAHA i fuckin love scott steiner
Posted By: ripstamps (Guest) on March 09, 2010 at 11:32 PM
i think Punk has been yelling "This place sucks"
Posted By: Guest#3807 (Guest) on March 09, 2010 at 11:43 PM
How about the Thrillseekers counting for that tag team question(Lance Storm and Chris Jericho)
Posted By: ripstamps (Guest) on March 09, 2010 at 11:54 PM
Wouldn't the Rockers count for the tag team question also?
Posted By: Cory (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 12:04 AM
Ropes have more give than cables. But unless you've got guys doing springboards and stuff, it doesn't make much of a difference. Even then, I've never had any problems with ropes. As for the paying your dues bit, at least in America, it doesn't matter what you've done or where you've been, you've still got to pay your dues or else you're just a want to be, or a meat-head who thinks this stuff should be easy because he's a "real fighter"
Posted By: Max Maverick (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 12:13 AM
I remember in one interview, I believe Vince asked Jake what DDT meant. His answer, simply, "the end."
Posted By: Micah (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 12:38 AM
Thrillseekers wouldn't count I think because they didn't debut as a team and had been wrestling for a while beforehand. On the other hand, I think The Hardy Boyz would be a team for that list.
Posted By: Blanky (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 01:00 AM
Yeah, the Rockers totally work. Janetty's been IC champ, and Shawn ...
Posted By: Guest#2619 (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 01:11 AM
Wouldn't the Rockers count for the tag team question also?
Posted By: Cory (Guest) on March 09, 2010 at 11:22 PM
Well, even Jannetty got to be the IC champion, so yeah, they should be mentioned too.
Posted By: JK (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 01:13 AM
I was MIA from wrestling for the Micheals/Hogan match. I've read about it, but its the first time I've seen it, I couldn't think of a better presentation for it. The leg drop bump is the best, Hogan had to be thinking "WTF Brother?"
Punk on that flight from hell would have been awesome. I can't imagine Lesnar even fitting down a plane aisle how the hell is he going to try to fight on a plane?
Posted By: midcard madness (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 01:32 AM
With all due respect, I definitely disagree about John Morrison. When has he ever missed the Flying Chuck? Honestly, you talk about all the stuff he misses... can you name ANY move that he misses with any regularity besides Starship Pain?
Yeah, it's easy to rag on that move but that move hardly defines his entire skillset. One example does not prove an entire point.
Here's a question: why did he stop using the Moonlight Drive as his finisher anyway? Was that his choice or a choice of the higher ups? That's a pretty simple finisher that's almost impossible to not hit properly.
I also hate the idea that have a flashy, wide, varied moveset is a bad thing. I know the WWE somewhat frowns upon that but you're talking Sforcina as if that's a bad thing in general.
Oh boy! Shawn Michaels is hitting the Atomic Drop! That move stopped being remotely interesting after immediately. A monkey could make that move look crisp.
One more thing, Morrison has had tons of matches that have great psychology where he picks his spots. Punk, Mysterio, Bourne, Ziggler, Benjamin, etc. have all been great opponents. Comparing him to an indie guy who just hits stuff for the sake of hitting it (which I agree is annoying) not only is insulting to Morrison but it also makes you look rather dim as someone who doesn't even pay attention to John's matches. I don't think that's true but that's the way you come off.
I know, I know. It's your opinion. That's cool. This is mine. Morrison absolutely should get rid of Starship Pain from his moveset unless he can learn how to hit it more flush. But nothing about John smacks of a guy who just goes for big moves without any rhyme or reason.
I urge you to rewatch Morrison vs. Bourne from John's last ECW match following last year's draft and then come back and tell me that he's just hitting stuff for the heck of it. That match has lots of big moves but they're all hit well and with reason.
Posted By: Ron Mexico (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 01:33 AM
"I've run ropes and cables, and there's not a huge amount of difference, there's a little"
Is 'run' an exaggeration, you fat fuck?
Posted By: Guest#1993 (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 01:38 AM
the self-destruction of scott steiner dvd available everywhere march 30th
forget undertaker, i wanna see hbk vs hogan 2 just to see him sell the big boot again
Posted By: sid delicious (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 01:39 AM
Best Ask 411 question ever....
How can people still defend TNA and their ratings after last night?
Posted By: Chungles (Guest) on March 09, 2010 at 11:04 PM
Perhaps he can also answer another nagging question?
What the Hell is your damage and what can we do to rid the Earth of you?
Posted By: Guest#1718 (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 01:52 AM
What about some of the old timers? Did the Funks or Briscos debut as tag teams?
Posted By: Guest#0510 (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 02:36 AM
nice last line, lol
Posted By: YEDemon (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 02:59 AM
Steinermania running wild!
Posted By: Mig (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 03:24 AM
On the CM Punk question:
He yells "This place sucks!" when on the turnbuckle during his entrance.
Posted By: Maha (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 04:06 AM
The concept that Shawn should have been punished for overselling Hulk's moves when he clearly made the feud with an awesome build-up that drew a lot of money (just compare that SummerSlam to the following ones) and considering that Shawn carried Hogan to his last decent single match is either wrong, retarded, or just another sign of the hate some fans still have for Shawn. Have you seen the match? Apart from the obvious overselling (that btw certainly caught the attention of the viewers that probably didn't notice that much how Hulk was incredibly slow) Hulk was THE ONE to be protected in the match, not Shawn, have you ever seen a Hogan match durin the Hulkamania golden years, his opponents used to fly away when Hogan was hulking up. Ok, this time Shawn's done all the match that way. To me it's much more offensive not accepting a match against a phenomenal wrestler if you don't get to win clean(an old legendary wrestler, the biggest draw ever). Hogan got to kick out of the SCM (they didn't even give Shawn a visual pinfall) and win superclean via his finisher (one of the very last time he's been able to do the legdrop). Now that's protection for you. Now you could have talked about the sort of shoot promo Shawn cut at Monday Night Raw, now that was more interesting cause one could wonder how much of that was Shawn getting a little verbal revenge on the Hulkster or the WWE letting him do that (eventually blaming Shawn, who even called it a shoot). HBK was the one that was working almost full time for the WWE. Sometimes some questions about Shawn's past almost seem like a: is it true Shawn was such a dick... tell me more... when everybody in the wrestling world knows that cause Shawn's always been the first to talk about it, no protection at all on his past mistakes. Nobody can't bash the WWE to have protected Shawn too hard since his return cause he's held the title the last time the year 2002 (just one month). I'd like to remind some people that Shawn Michaels has jobbed three times to Miz in tag team matches.
Posted By: Max (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 05:07 AM
"Thrillseekers wouldn't count I think because they didn't debut as a team and had been wrestling for a while beforehand"
They were a tag team (as Sudden Impact, they got renamed to the Thrillseekers in SMW) within a few matches of the start of their careers.
Michaels, on the other hand, had been wrestling for at least a year before getting teamed with Jannetty.
Depends what the question's asking, I guess. The Rockers were brought into the WWF as a team, split and both held singles gold in the WWF. The Thrillseekers were an established team (under a few names) for a good long time during the early part of their careers and went on to hold singles titles, but (as far as I'm aware) not in any fed that brought them in as a team originally.
Posted By: Dave_W (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 05:18 AM
Either Hogan is a real professional in the ring, or he just had no idea what was going on. We all know that the guy can be a bit delusional from time to time. 3.0? Give me a break.
Posted By: Squid Vicious (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 05:24 AM
Yeah, the Rockers totally work. Janetty's been IC champ, and Shawn ...
Posted By: Guest#2619 (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 01:11 AM
========================================
Well? What about Shawn?
Posted By: Squid Vicious (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 05:27 AM
another signature move whose name has become synonoymous with said move is the reverse piledriver, which now everyone calls the tombstone piledriver.
hbk/hogan never gets old. when i saw the match the first time, i stood up and applauded. F-Hogan.
Posted By: rey (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 05:51 AM
The Steiners wouldnt count! Rick had modert solo success before Scott debuted. I'm pretty sure he was a TV Champ , in a tag team with Sting and a member of the Varsity club!
Posted By: The Cynic (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 06:15 AM
Yep, CM Punk does say "this place sucks" when he stands on the turnbuckles. I don't know if he says it every time, but it's been noticeable on a few instances.
Posted By: Guest#0292 (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 06:28 AM
As far as other names for the DDT is concerned, I'm positive that I remember Adrian Adonis using it and calling it the Graham Cracker.
Posted By: Chris (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 06:36 AM
Adding Yakety Sax to Hogan vs. HBK makes that match (wait, everything) that much more enjoyable.
Top reason to make me regret upgrading to HDTV...
1) Hogan and Flair Monday on TNA
Posted By: Guest#4103 (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 07:04 AM
Stevie Ray never "won" the TV title. He defended it in Booker T's absence. I wouldn't count them. Steiners either given that Rick was well into his pro years when Scott debuted.
Posted By: King Haku (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 07:43 AM
Thrillseekers wouldn't count I think because they didn't debut as a team and had been wrestling for a while beforehand. On the other hand, I think The Hardy Boyz would be a team for that list.
Posted By: Blanky (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 01:00 AM
Lance and Jericho trained together in the dungeon, had their first match together against each other, then gained exposure as the tag team Sudden Impact...they eventually became the Thrillseekers in SMW...so yes, they do count as their initial success was as a tag team.
Posted By: Ramsey (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 07:53 AM
Rockers didn't debut together, though, really. Shawn and Marty's first national exposure was in the AWA, where they debuted in singles, then hooked up as a tag team a few months later. (This was in '85-86, and EVERYONE was desperately trying to create a Midnight Express/Rock and Roll Express clone team. Verne was just more blatant about it. I mean, "Midnight Rockers"?)
Posted By: rdfox (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 08:29 AM
Best Ask 411 question ever....
How can people still defend TNA and their ratings after last night?
Posted By: Chungles (Guest) on March 09, 2010 at 11:04 PM
________________________________________
That's a crap question you ersatz little douche.
Posted By: Chungles (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 08:29 AM
Who cares about your opinion? I don't even read those questions.
Posted By: Luke (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 08:34 AM
With regards to cable vs rope, Cornette said in another interview, that the OVW ring was being used for training as well as events.
Cable is much more durable than rope and is thus more suitable for heavy use and as he said the rope couldn't take the strain and broke very quickly.
Posted By: Bruno (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 08:39 AM
Best Ask 411 question ever....
How can people still defend TNA and their ratings after last night?
Posted By: Chungles (Guest) on March 09, 2010 at 11:04 PM
Better question.. why do VIEWERS care about ratings?
Posted By: poffo316 (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 08:42 AM
"Scott Hall then got into the act as well, showing off, uh, ‘Razor's Inside Edge' to Steph."
I had heard of all the other "plane ride from hell" incidents, but not this one. Hall exposed himself to Stephanie? If it's true, I'll assume he wasn't invited to Hunter's wedding. Anyone have additional details on this?
Posted By: Guest#9694 (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 08:52 AM
Edge debuted before Christian, and Christian won the light heavyweight title in his first match.
Rick Steiner was around for a good while before Scott joined him.
Neither debuted on a national stage as a tag team.
Posted By: Tim Haught (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 09:10 AM
Didn't Janetty get a short TV title run in WCW or was he just one of the challengers for it. Either way he did when the IC title at a time when it was still considered a big step up to win that belt
Posted By: Guest#1778 (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 09:17 AM
Really interesting analysis of Morrison, Matt. I've always thought that he could really benefit from a program with Michaels (and, to a lesser extent, Jericho) so that he can learn how to do things in context, rather then just be a spot monkey.
Posted By: Hellpop (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 09:41 AM
rvd (robbie v) is back! tna is now my favorite brand! My god flair has so much talent for a guy of his age...hall in a match at destination x...lol but still entertaining...even better than mcmahon vs bret. jeff hardy, sting...hahaha go to hell wwe wannabees. and whacha gonna do...
Posted By: dalpe (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 09:41 AM
The thing about that Jericho clip is that it was ten years early. All that stuff is true now. PPV buyrates are down, ratings are down, and the WWE tries to pass off mediocre wrestlers as stars- Orton comes to mind.
Posted By: KenB3 (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 09:57 AM
I strongly disagree that JoMo's moveset is the main or only reason he hasn't moved out of the mid card. Have you seen his mic work as a face? He sucks! He seems lame and awkward as hell as a face and as the charisma of a paper weight. Make him a cool quiet heel that doesn't have to suck up to the kids and act like he loves tagging with R-Troff while he gets his move set and mic work improve.
Posted By: Ron Ron (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 09:57 AM
Regarding people being offended by their opponents' in-character promos, supposedly that's what let to Hulk Hogan's final departure from WCW and the subsequent bad blood between him and Vince Russo. The storyline was supposed to be that Jeff Jarrett would go out and lay down for Hogan, and then Hogan would storm out angrily and Russo would bash him on the mic, leading to a match later that evening for the title between Jarrett and Booker T, with Hogan eventually coming back later for revenge. But when Russo reamed Hogan out, Hogan got offended for real, and that was the end of that. Supposedly.
Scott Steiner is famous for his over-the-top promo blasting Ric Flair, but unless I'm mistaken, he did something similar with Diamond Dallas Page as well that led to a brawl between the two backstage.
Posted By: G. Jonah Jameson (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 10:14 AM
Is the Shawn thing a rumor or fact? I really thought Shawn vs. Hogan was a 100 times better then expected, and I hear that from many people as well. Shawns over selling made Hogan come off as really powerful, kinda like in old classic matches. While not to the same degree, you can see The Rock doing a similar style of over selling during the beginning of their WM18 battle.
Posted By: Nevermore (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 10:20 AM
Great point about Morrison, as much as I am a fan, it always does seem like he is botching things up.
Posted By: Tom (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 10:28 AM
DDT does stand for something:
DichloroDiphenylTrichloroethane
Do your homework.
Posted By: DDT (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 10:31 AM
I don't think that the Steiners debuted together. From my memory, Rick was part of the Varsity Club before Scott came along.
John Morrison is more RVD than HBK.
Always, ALWAYS appreciate the work you do for this column. You're a better man than me.
Posted By: Big Fat Fag (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 10:43 AM
Hardy Boys have gone their separate ways and have won titles too
Posted By: aprince66 (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 10:58 AM
Wouldn't the Rockers count for the tag team question also?
Posted By: Cory (Guest) on March 09, 2010 at 11:22 PM
Well, even Jannetty got to be the IC champion, so yeah, they should be mentioned too.
Posted By: JK (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 01:13 AM
If I understand the logic correctly, they don't count because 1) Janetty was a pro for a while before Shawn debuted, and 2) prior to the formation of the Midnight Rockers, Janetty held the Central States title.
Of course, using that rationale, The Steiners should not count either, as Rick was NWA TV champ and Florida champ before tagging with Scott (unless they tagged together somewhere/sometime before the NWA of 1989).
Posted By: HBK's Smile (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 10:59 AM
hey dude i have a question that i hope you can answer.
has there ever been a team that started together, not thrown together but debuted together and both went on to being champions in single's action?
The Steiner Brothers
Edge & Christian
Harlem Heat
Powerteam USA (Sting and Ultimate Warrior)
Rick Steiner was part of "The Varsity Club" way before Scott joined the company.
Posted By: Reichou (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 10:59 AM
I think Jim's problem with the whole ropes/cables was the fact that Mark Henry (a very large guy) got whipped into the ropes, they broke and he was badly injured. And if WWF/E are sending huge guys to train you might as well go with whats already working and safe.
Posted By: dik (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 12:05 PM
So Jericho was the babyface in his first WWF match? Huh.
Hall flashed Steph? God, it's a wonder he wasn't literally thrown off the plane.
I think Michaels was also in the clear because his opponent was Hogan, who the higher ups in WWE (Vince, Hunter, Michaels himself) know can be hard to deal with/in only for himself. I'm willing to bet the boys watching in the back that night had a laugh at Shawn's antics and were proud of him, not angry at him "exposing the business." It's definitely a combination of everything as to why HBK suffered no repercussions.
I believe Kurt has since admitted that Vince tried to help him but he was pretty fucked up at the time. He's pretty happy in TNA, though, and a return to WWE is not in his immediate future.
Morrison needs to work on finding a reason for all his big moves. We know he can do it, cos his IC match with Mysterio last summer had all kinds of highspots between the two, but it told a story as well. Morrison, along with any other "destined for the main event" performer that doesn't work out with Hunter, also have to pay for the sins of Brock Lesnar and Bobby Lashley; Vince wants WWE Lifers and they have to prove themselves before they take the next step. Or give Triple H a hard-on.
Posted By: neverAcquiesce (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 12:26 PM
omigodomigodomigod. Someone called out a WWE worker as a spot monkey... how is this page not 1 hundred deep guest comments calling for Sforcina's head?
Posted By: Guest#5526 (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 12:33 PM
The Steiners definitely didn't debut together. Rick wrestled in 3 other promotions (UWF included) and wrestled in the NWA/WCW for almost a year before Scott got there.
Scott wrestled in the CWA before joining Rick in NWA/WCW and was Tag Team champion there.
Posted By: SeatsPro (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 12:41 PM
Punk is often saying "What's my name?", but I don't know if he does that everytime.
Posted By: Guest#0419 (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 01:08 PM
At 9:07 the look on Jericho's face is priceless. Either he was acting his butt off there, or he was really shocked. It looks like he was mouthing "This was MY Shot!". AWESOME!
Plus I always hear that Kurt got out of his contract, so that he could heal, but he was planning all along to just jump ship to TNA, where they promised to let him be in the Main Event picture, instead of half the time in the midcard like WWE was doing with him. That was also why he didn't have to wait out his 90 no compete, cause Vince let him out of his contract to heal.
Posted By: ermacpd (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 01:15 PM
"One more thing, Morrison has had tons of matches that have great psychology where he picks his spots."
Please, Ron Mexico, in which 5 minute match did Morrison show good pyschology in his ringwork? It takes me longer to refill the slurpee machine than it does for a Morrison match, including entrance.
Maybe you should change your name to Ron Morrison-Mark?
Posted By: Darth Mortis (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 01:35 PM
You forgot the most obvious reason Morrison will have trouble getting to the main event level: He cuts the worst promos of ANYONE in the upper echelon of WWE superstars. That fact can't be debated. Wooden, forced, and almost indy like.
Not quite as bad as Roderick Strong (who should have his vocal cords removed before attempting a promo) but still a plunge below everybody else on the roster who matters.
Posted By: Brad B (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 02:52 PM
That HBK vs Hogan match is still the most unprofessional piece of shit I have seen in WWE.
Regardless of who is involved, who goes over, who stays with the company, etc. Shawn was a complete and utter buffoon in that match, made the business look like a clown show, and spit in the faces of paying fans, jsut so he could "prove" how much Hogan sucks. Guess who sucks? Un-professional wrestlers who ruin matches to get themselves over.
Posted By: isaac (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 02:59 PM
The answer is Doug Basham. Try harder next week.
Posted By: Its always Doug Basham (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 03:04 PM
Hypocrite suit wearing jericho is the same as all the other "cuts the same boring promo, wrestles the same style of match" every week guys that you people criticise
Posted By: Guest#4772 (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 03:16 PM
I agree about Morrison on some of those counts. I've complained that he does too many unnecessary moves in every match, some things he should save for big matches. He hasn't learned that less is more.
But he does need more work on the stick. He'll get there, I'm certain, he's just not quite there, yet.
Posted By: G-Walla (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 03:34 PM
Morrison has some charisma but comes off as akward and nervous on the mic sometimes. That's another thing that I feel holds him back sometimes.
Posted By: Guest#3242 (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 03:57 PM
Steiner is a legend. The night in TNA when he took over ring announcing duty was comedy gold.
Oh and Yakety Sax needs to be applied to any WWE match over the past 6 years.
In fact, that theme tune pretty much sums up pro wrestling in it's entirety now.
Jerichos debut promo just makes me hope that TNA can pick themselves up after Monday and get themselves closer to the WWE so we can actually see decent things like this happening again.
Jericho was pretty much a midcard nobody in WCW. His debut promo in the WWF has him playing duelling mics with The Rock of all people. I loved the fact that people could jump ship in this manner.
Ah, to turn back when wrestling TV was actually good.
Posted By: SayWhatMoFo (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 05:00 PM
Hypocrite Suit Wearing Jericho Kicks ass!
Posted By: CB2010 (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 05:21 PM
When Punk comes out on the stage, he points at his wrist...like a watch...and says "It's Clobberin' Time!"
p.s. thank you for name dropping The Dear Hunter....amazing! :)
Posted By: Erik... (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 05:38 PM
Is the Shawn thing a rumor or fact? I really thought Shawn vs. Hogan was a 100 times better then expected, and I hear that from many people as well. Shawns over selling made Hogan come off as really powerful, kinda like in old classic matches. While not to the same degree, you can see The Rock doing a similar style of over selling during the beginning of their WM18 battle.
Posted By: Nevermore (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 10:20 AM
No you have to believe it's fact...when you watch the video and at the very end he gives him the big boot and Shawn's pops up, flails around and then flops again...come on...that's not classic 80's style...that's him showing Hogan he is a massive douche
Posted By: Erik... (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 05:40 PM
In regard to Jericho winning the light heavyweight title, he didnt but he did coome out with that title around his waist for one show. I'm fairly sure he was IC champ at the time and there was a problem with that belt (lost? forgotten?) so he wore the LHC belt for the one night and I guess the WWE hoped nobody would notice.
Posted By: anon (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 05:46 PM
"Chris Jericho Defends the WWE Women’s Title at House Show
Posted by Larry Csonka on 06.15.2009
Really…
At last night's WWE Smackdown house show event in Hershey, PA, Chris Jericho was not wearing the WWE Intercontinental Title to the ring as usual, instead he was hiding the belt. This is because he was carrying the WWE Women's Title to the ring, with some carefully placed electrical tape on the title.
Apparently, Jericho forgot the WWE Intercontinental Title at his hotel, forgetting to pack it when he left for the show. There is no heat on Jericho for the mistake, but he did take some ribbing from the guys that worked the show last night."
unless ppl are thinking of this and getting mixed up
Posted By: anon (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 05:51 PM
I liked your column until the John Morrison section. His "moveset" being the reason for a non-push? You sir, are a mark.
Posted By: wtf (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 06:33 PM
Shawn Michaels had sex with Vince McMahon. So I doubt he got in any trouble. And I honestly believe this. And I believe that the Montreal Screwjob was really about a homosexual relationship between Vince and Shawn. Shawn said he wanted Bret embarrassed or else, and Vince caved in and screwed Bret publicly.
Posted By: Jon Caplan of Jenkintown, PA (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 09:32 PM
Best Ask 411 question ever....
How can people still defend TNA and their ratings after last night?
Posted By: Chungles (Guest) on March 09, 2010 at 11:04 PM
Because WWE is soooooo bad they are hoping that TNA can pull its head out of its ass and actually put on a good show. Both companies suck hard right now.
Posted By: Guest#4681 (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 10:01 PM
Jake Roberts "lifted" the DDT from Black Gordman. He should get more credit as the inventor.
The title Jericho won at an untelevised house show was the WCW Cruiserweight belt from X-pac at the L.A. Forum in 1996.
Posted By: Trashy (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 10:03 PM
My question for next week's column, how many guys work 300 days a year anymore? in fact how many of the guys work more then 200 times a year?
I always loved Hogan say how he worked 300 days a year, I can't remember Hogan working more then 100 days a year since 1985
Posted By: Jonah (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 11:18 PM
"It's clobberin time" is the battle cry of the thing from the fantastic four and is also an old song by a great hadcore/punk band called sick of it all. i'd assume that if that is what punk is screaming he might be referencing the sick of it all song. lot's of times he is wearing clothes of various hardcore and punk bands. on last nights NXT for example he was wearing a bouncing souls shirt
Posted By: Guest#0277 (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 11:21 PM
That Steiner video is great. I know he is a bit of tard in his promos but look at 6:02 of that video and he does the greatest, most truthful promo ever about that tool Ric Flair. Priceless.
Posted By: Guest#7275 (Guest) on March 11, 2010 at 12:47 AM
Question, Wrestler Man:
How much leeway do guys get when it comes to losing to guys, but more specifically dropping belts? The most famous example is the Montreal Screwjob, but I read that Rey-Rey refused to drop his Intercontinental belt to Dolph Ziggler on numerous occasions this past summer. Is it a matter of how much money they make, how big a draw they are or how respected they are? I imagine if Sheamus refused to drop the title at the EC PPV, they would've told him to shut the hell up, but who knows? That's where you come in.
Posted By: ThePants (Guest) on March 11, 2010 at 01:48 AM
When was the last time HHH lost a singles match?
Posted By: Alex (Guest) on March 11, 2010 at 04:29 AM
Thanks for answering my questions, Sforcina!
Posted By: Finn (Guest) on March 11, 2010 at 07:16 AM
Edge and Christian did not debut as a team together.
Posted By: Bobby (Guest) on March 11, 2010 at 11:09 AM
"Snake eyes" is now the standard name for dropping someone face 1st into the turnbuckle, and the name comes from when Nash started using it as Vinnie Vegas, so there's another move associated with one person.
Posted By: zappafrank (Guest) on March 12, 2010 at 03:27 AM
Both Icarus in Chikara and Jimmy Rave in ROH use the pedigree and the announcers call it the pedigree sometimes and either greetings from ghana or wings of icarus at others.
Posted By: Dave (Guest) on March 12, 2010 at 09:33 AM
First, you never wrestled. Stop making shit up loser. Wrassling with your nephews in your tightie whities doesn't count.
Second, Angle QUIT WWE, not the other way around.
Posted By: Guest#8535 (Guest) on March 12, 2010 at 11:34 PM
Wrestling's fake right?
Posted By: Guest#5716 (Guest) on March 13, 2010 at 11:22 AM
DDT isn't an acronym. acronyms are spoken as words, like MADD or NASA.
Posted By: dave (Guest) on March 16, 2010 at 09:07 PM
So Jericho was the babyface in his first WWF match? Huh.
Hall flashed Steph? God, it's a wonder he wasn't literally thrown off the plane.
I think Michaels was also in the clear because his opponent was Hogan, who the higher ups in WWE (Vince, Hunter, Michaels himself) know can be hard to deal with/in only for himself. I'm willing to bet the boys watching in the back that night had a laugh at Shawn's antics and were proud of him, not angry at him "exposing the business." It's definitely a combination of everything as to why HBK suffered no repercussions.
I believe Kurt has since admitted that Vince tried to help him but he was pretty fucked up at the time. He's pretty happy in TNA, though, and a return to WWE is not in his immediate future.
Morrison needs to work on finding a reason for all his big moves. We know he can do it, cos his IC match with Mysterio last summer had all kinds of highspots between the two, but it told a story as well. Morrison, along with any other "destined for the main event" performer that doesn't work out with Hunter, also have to pay for the sins of Brock Lesnar and Bobby Lashley; Vince wants WWE Lifers and they have to prove themselves before they take the next step. Or give Triple H a hard-on.
Posted By: neverAcquiesce (Guest) on March 10, 2010 at 12:26 PM
----------------------------------------
Well, that was pointless.
Posted By: Live from the 305 (Guest) on March 17, 2010 at 06:38 AM
Copyright � 2011 411mania.com, LLC. All rights reserved.
Click here for our privacy policy. Please help us serve you better, fill out our survey.
Use of this site signifies your agreement to our terms of use.
