Ask 411 Wrestling 03.17.10: Naming Stone Cold, Rescrewing Bret and Shoot Shoots!

Posted by Mathew Sforcina on 03.17.2010

How did Stone Cold get his name? Why did Kerry Von Erich lose the NWA Title so fast? Who's doing Shane McMahon's old job? When did people start throwing toilet paper at Jimmy Rave? Get all of the answers in the latest edition of Ask 411 Wrestling!

Hello all, and welcome to this edition of Ask 411 Wrestling!

*pauses for applause*

*waits*

*gives up*

Anyway, last week was a bit of a short one, as I said at the outset. But this week, I'm back to my normal work hours, which means this one should be nice and fat. Or at least fatter than last time.

And a good way to get the word count up is to use lots of pretty video and pictures. Like this one!



And I can also cut and paste some appeals for support, like this!

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Remember, every person who isn't signed up, that's another Nasty Boys match.

Backtalking

Unbreakable Wrestlers: Well, I gave my options, Andrew also offered Hulk Hogan, Iron Shiek, Ricky Steamboat, Bret Hart, Dr Death Steve Williams, Ted DiBiase Sr and Bob Backlund. Of course, Hogan has his knee problems, and Steamboat retired due to injury in-ring, but your mileage may vary.

Every WWE Champion in the HOF?: I stand by my claim, in that while Bruno and Warrior and Savage will need to be dead and buried, as well as Vince, eventually they will get in. It'll just take a while.

CM Punk Ripping Off… Everyone, apparently.: Hey, Punk's SES thing is indeed similar to the Flock. And the Nest. And Sullivan's group. And a whole bunch of other groups. There's only so many ways to make groups in wrestling, and the cult is one of them. Everyone in wrestling rips off something. (Oh, and please don't get me started on AA. You all saw what happened last time I discussed religion in here….)

Tag Teams with Single's Success: I did think about the Rockers, but then I think of them pre-Rockers, they didn't come in together. But then neither did the Steiners, so yes, The Rockers do count under my rules (which I'll admit are pretty generous). And I guess the Thrillseekers too. (And while he didn't win the title, Stevie Rey was, officially, a WCW TV Champion. So he counts.) Oh, and E&C actually wrestled together in some of their very first matches in the Indies.

Morrison's Moveset: To clarify: Having a flashy moveset is NOT a bad thing. If you have lots of great, flashy moves, that lots of people can take safely and look great, then that's extremely good. I just feel that Morrison tries a little too hard to be different and less on making what he does do look as great as it could be. I mean, it's all well and good to do everything differently, but if it starts to impact on how good the match looks, then that's bad. But by all means, you may not notice, but to my eye, he isn't that crisp a worker. But again, flashy moveset is fine. Provided it hits.

I'm fat!: I don't quite understand this sort of comment. I mean, yes, I'm fat. I am aware of this, I do buy clothes. I am obese. I'm also a Pro Wrestler who's good enough to be the company's champion, which in one fell swoop proves that I'm possibly better shape than you and have probably achieved more than you have in this life. But by all means, insult away. Just increasing the hit count.

And I don't mind if you don't care about my opinion. Hence why it's at the end, so you can skip over it if you want.

Your Turn, Smart Guy…

So, none last week. Week before, the question was:

Who am I? Part of a wrestling dynasty, I've wrestled all over the world, for several companies. I've had managers, and have managed. I've tried to bring companies down with stables, be they led by myself or led by others. A champion many times over, I sadly only hold one World Title to my name. A man who has borrowed a weapon off the writer of this column, and a guy who also idolised Tully Blanchard, I am the sometimes masked, recently un-retired and a man who's Wikipedia page has my work as a reference, I am who?

And the answer would indeed be Steve Corino, man of many nicknames, and borrower of my necklace to use as a chain. So there you go.

Who Are We? A Set of Tag Team Champions, we've both been World Champion (albeit with neither of us winning the same world title). We've fought each other in 2 (American) companies, we've fought more than we've teamed. One of us was the first holder of a title, and other the first man to win a certain title on PPV. We won the tag straps off the guys we lost them to in a match that was a catapult for a heel turn for one of us. We're both well versed in tag wrestling, one with one man partner, the other with a whole bunch. One of us is active and the other's not really retired, we are who?

Questions, Questions, Who's Got The Questions?

We start with a nice simple one from JLAJRC.

What were the ratings for the first and last episodes of WCW Nitro? Also, what were the ratings for the RAW's that were against those episodes?

Well then, let's have a look at the still very handy Monday Night Wars In A Spreadsheet!.

OK, this I don't quite understand, in that to my knowledge there was no Raw on the first episode of Nitro, yet the sheet says Nitro got 2.5 to Raw's 2.2 on the first Nitro. Regardless, the first time the two went head to head for real (the night "He beats the big guy with three superkicks") was the next week, September 11th, 1995, and that was Raw 2.5 V Nitro's 2.4.

As for the last Nitro, it scored a flat 3, and Raw 4.7. So a bit of improvement in the 6 years.

Empire Of Ownage forces me to outsource a bit.

Where and why did the tradition of throwing toilet paper into the ring when Jimmy Rave comes out start in Ring of Honor?

In cases like this, I bow to superior wisdom, and feature here the words of Ari Berenstein, 411's resident ROH Fan and Recapper.

Well, it started with a lone fan in late 2004 at the old Rex Plex in New Jersey. While other ROH wrestlers were sometimes receiving huge streamer receptions, this fan instead would throw in just one streamer at Rave (this was visual comedy because everyone else disliked him, so only getting one streamer was an insult and Rave took it as such). Then it became odd items, like pink bathroom loofahs. The real start of the toilet paper throwing would be a Four Corner Survival match between Rave, James Gibson (Jamie Noble), Alex Shelley and Azrieal from ROH Escape from New York, which took place July 9th, 2005 at the New Yorker Hotel. It was only one roll of toilet paper at the time, but hey, you have to start somewhere!

I then asked a follow up as to when ROH fans started throwing Streamers at all, but I stumped him, alas.

I'm not sure about that one. I seem to recall streamers catching on around the time Great Muta made his appearance during ROH Final Battle 2003, but it could have been before that, since there were several Japanese wrestlers like Ikuto Hidaka who made their way to ROH before then.

Thanks again to Ari. Go read his stuff.

411's Own Aaron Titan has some questions now as well as an opinion one later.

From one 411er to another, your column rules. A few questions from a huge wrestling fan:

1) You mentioned a tag team comprised of the Ultimate Warrior and Sting called Powerteam USA. This must have happened in WCW right? Any back story on that tag team forming and what they achieved storyline-wise? I'm really surprised Borden agreed to tag with Jim.

No no no. Sting and Ultimate Warrior broke into the business together. Powerteam USA was the brainchild of Red Bastien and Rick Bassman. They got 4 good looking bodybuilders who Red trained to become wrestlers, and the idea was to tour the territories with these guys as a roving draw, the big tough Powerteam USA. The 4 were Garland Donoho, Mark Miller, Steve Borden and Jim Hellwig. You might recognize those last two. Suffice to say, the idea didn't take off, and Garland and Mark quit soon after. But Steve and Jim kept at it, and became a tag team, going to Continental Wrestling Association (which is why Sting has such loyalty to the Jarretts, Jerry gave him his first break) where they were The Freedom Fighters (Justice and Flash. Flash is Sting.), and then to Bill Watts and UWF, where they were The Bladerunners (Rock and Sting). Then they split as Rock went to WCCW and became the Dingo Warrior, and their paths split, although they did have one last tag match together in WCW, but we don't talk about that.

But yeah, Sting and Warrior started off together, legit. So they probably win the award, moreso than the Hardyz. (Also, if you like speculative fiction, here's Ron Gamble's takes on if Sting went to WCCW and thus, logically, Warrior had stayed in UWF.)

2) What is Randy Savage up to these days. I know he's done some voice-over work, but has he attempted to get back into the wrestling business again at all?

Well, yes, Savage has made a couple of appearances back in Wrestling, in TNA.



This was in 2004, when he came in to fight off Jarrett, Hall and Nash with AJ Styles and Jeff Hardy, with a big 6 man match at Turning Point. And Savage did turn up, but only for the last few moments, pinning Jarrett.



But then Savage and Jarrett had a falling out, with Savage wanting to then win the World Title, Jarrett refused, so Savage left. As for now with Hogan… Who knows at what stage the Savage/Hogan relationship is at.

Suffice to say, apart from this short stint, Savage has done nothing in wrestling, except play a part in a weird co-incidence (on the day the Savage DVD set was released by WWE, a Slim Jim factory exploded). But he has done some voice over work, because let's face it, his voice is pretty unique.

But by most accounts, he's retired from the ring. Which is a shame, his TNA theme was kinda cool, in an over-feedback enriched way.



3) So Shane McMahon left the WWE at of January, 1, 2010. I don't know the exact title of his former position, but I know he was at the arenas at PPVs and the following day's RAW among other things. Who got his job when he left?

Shane McMahon was WWE's Executive Vice President, Global Media. To translate that out of business-ese, his job was to get the WWE out there in the world, get the international deals flowing, get WWE on TVs all over the planet. Which is why a lot of people are watching to see if he joins a MMA company. His on-screen use for any MMA company is questionable. But his talent behind the scenes, getting deals done? Now that's something MMA companies would love to get.

So, who is in the job now? Well, the WWE restructured, and that specific title no longer exists. However, Shane's job, as well as the WWE Canada President positon held by Carl DeMarco for 14 years before he quit right before Shane, the two jobs got merged into one position, "Executive Vice President, International". And that position is filled by Andrew Whitaker. He began with NBC, working on several TV shows as an NBC rep, then joined WWF in 1987, and for the past 20 years he worked his way up the WWF then WWE ladder, focusing on international markets. So he's experienced enough at the job that it's not a surprising promotion.

You owe it to yourself as a wrestling fan to see this at least once.


Josh wants to know who gets the credit.

So everyone knows that when Steve Austin came to the WWE he was called the Ring Master. Then after he debut I remember watching Superstars or something and Jim Ross would refer to him as being stone cold, not actually the name Stone Cold, just saying that The Ring Master was stone cold. Then one day they up and changed his name to Stone Cold Steve Austin. So whose idea was it to go from Ring Master to SCSA? Did they hear Jim Ross calling Ring Master stone cold and thought it had a good ring? Who gets credit for this idea?

Well, it's a mix of things here.

The Ringmaster gimmick wasn't working, and Austin was pushing for him to become a cold, uncaring heel type, basically what the original Stone Cold character became. The story that Mick Foley tells is that Austin submitted this idea, looking for a name, that he wanted to become cold, and got a list of names like "Chilly McFreeze" and "Ice Dagger". So Austin had this gimmick idea, but no name.

And the credit for the name goes to his second wife, Lady Blossom (real name Jeannie Clark). Being British, when her hubby was trying to think, she did what any good British gal would do. She made him a cup of tea. But Austin was distracted, as he thought about this new, non-sucky gimmick. And, gently pressing him as most wives do, she told him to drink his tea before it went ‘Stone Cold', which is a somewhat British expression.

So, the idea to change the gimmick was Austin's. The name was his wife. JR was probably just helping the name along.

Now, having insulted an entire country and a whole gender, I move onto HBK's Smile.

Hi, Matt. Thanks for answering my questions in the past. Here are a few new ones.

1) After all the hype for the Ric Flair-Kerry Von Erich match, why did the rematch where Flair regained the title take place 18 days later in Japan? I get that the NWA probably did not want Kerry as champ for long, but weren't they throwing away a huge gate by having it in Japan? Did the Japanese even know who Kerry was? And was it even the main event of the card it appeared on?

Well, let's get some video in here first. If you've never seen it, here's Flair losing the belt to Kerry.



And here's the end of the rematch, when Flair won the title back.



That rematch happened at an All Japan Pro Wrestling card in Yokosuka, Japan on May 24, 1984. I wasn't able to find the card listing, so I have no idea where on the bill the match came. Now, as to why the match happened… There's a whole lot of politics involved.

Now, the Von Erichs were well known in Japan, they often did tours there, David died in Japan after all. And that set the whole thing off.

See, David was a very good wrestler and, supposedly, in line to win the NWA World Title. Certainly he was being pushed there, there was a big angle with Mike Von Erich and Flair, where David got the right to a title match when Flair was unable to beat Mike in 10 minutes (had Flair won within 10 minutes, David would never have been able to ask for a shot). David was then able to name all the stips, and the match was set for April. And David was set to win the match, the title, and everything was set to be wine and roses.

And then David died.

After some time to mourn, the NWA and WCCW held a tribute show for David, May 6, and on the show, Flair defended his World title against Kerry Von Erich, being David's brother and the next biggest star. And in the feel good moment, Kerry won the match and the title, for his brother.

Then we get the politics.

See, while David's win had been planned, Kerry's was more of a spur of the moment thing, the family's been hit, Fritz is devastated, give them the title to make up for it. Thus, Kerry wasn't in the plans. Flair was building up to his big match with Ricky Steamboat in New Jersey at the end of the month. So Flair had to have the belt back by then.

And Kerry wasn't the most dependable person. Flair, in his book, discusses how he had to carry a out of it Kerry to a full hour due to the stipulations for the match, where had he just gone home, the entire feud between the two regions would be over, so he was forced to wrestle himself and a stiff board, for all intents and purposes, for an hour. So Kerry wasn't trusted, and Ric needed the belt back.

So why Japan? That was Fritz demand, apparently. With the title win occurring in Japan, Kerry didn't have to lose on home ground. Hell, not even in America! WCCW then spun it, by talking about how Flair must have paid the ref off, it was a giant conspiracy to screw Kerry out of the title. You can't trust them Japanese, heck, maybe they had something to do with David as well! And so forth.

2) I've seen it alleged that Chris Benoit was having an affair with a Diva at the time of 6/24/07. Any truth to that?

That's it for now. Thanks.

Well, it's true that it was rumoured. According to some media reports, Nancy suspected Chris was having an affair with a Diva, which led to tension. For some reason, Victoria was at some point linked to the story as the Diva in question, which she very quickly and very vehemently denied.

As for if it's the truth, I've not seen anyone else claim that there was anyone, and if there was someone, by now, someone would have sold some part of that story to someone.

Wait…

No, I don't think there was an affair, if there was, it would have come to light. But I'm not about to start digging, thank you.

Bradley asks for something to be spelled out.

Matt,

Great column buddy! I learn something new every time I read it. My brother and I are both huge fans of wrestling history, both inside and outside the ring. We were wondering what some of the most blatant political moves within wrestling have been, and the reasons behind them. For instance, in last week's column you mentioned HBK vetoing a Vader championship win at SummerSlam '96, for whatever *cough* reasons. Spell it, and others, out for me man.

Thanks, and keep up the good work.

Well, practically every decision is political on some level. Politics is one of those aspects of the business that everyone decries and says they hate, but everyone plays it on some level.

Now, Vader V Shawn is fairly easy, although like all such stories it's fuzzy and based on questionable testimonies.

The traditional line is that Vader was set to win the WWF Title at Summerslam, but Shawn, being a whiny little egotistical bitch, refused, and we ended up with what we got, with Vader kinda looking silly. The pro-Shawn people will point to their 2 months of house shows, and that clearly that must not have drawn and thus they just chose not to put the belt on Vader. Regardless, the original plan, by most accounts, was for Shawn to lose the belt to Vader, Vader loses it to Bret, then Vader beats Bret and then Shawn wins it back off Vader, thus giving Shawn and Bret a run without having to face each other. But the WWF didn't go that route, with Sid becoming the guy to beat and then lose to Shawn, skipping Bret all together.

However, that was going to be Vader still, Vader was to be the champ, but a badly timed injury meant Sid got the nod instead.

So that's the story of Shawn V Vader.

As for other political moves, well… The overselling from last week.

Then there's Bash At The Beach 2000.




OK, this one's complicated, so bear with me.

OK, Hogan has Creative Control, if he wants it, right? If he decides to call the shots, he can, Turner gave him that right. So, in the lead up to Bash At The Beach, and is told that he's losing to Jeff Jarrett by DQ (which he's not against, either part) and then that's it. Russo ain't using him no more.

Hogan doesn't like that, and thus pulls an audible, and demands changes, he demands to win the title, on the basis that Russo's an idiot and he has to stick around since he's Hulk Hogan. Eric Bischoff, the guy who was supposed to balance out Russo and be the negotiator, wasn't there since his father had just recently passed away.

So, day of the show, Bischoff turns up about an hour before the start of the show, meets with Hogan. They agree that Russo's an idiot, and then lay out to Russo how the match will go, since, with Hogan's Creative Control clause, he can do this and Russo can't do a damm thing.

Since WCW was so shoot-work twisty at this point, Hogan would, in character, invoke his Creative Control clause. Jarrett, disgusted with this, would lay down. Hogan, equally disgusted, would pin Jarrett to win the title. He'd then ‘retire', in character, in anger and disgust at how he was being treated. WCW would then hold a tournament to crown a new champion. The finals would be two heels (Jarrett and Steiner probably), but right before the match starts, Hulk Hogan returns, saying that since he was never beat, he's still the champ, he enters the match, wins, and Hulkamania is reborn and everyone is happy and we all move on.

Russo, because he had to, agrees. But, because he didn't want to do this, he spins it, and tells Hogan and Bischoff that if they do this, it has to look like a shoot shoot, not a worked shoot. And they have to act like it, as soon as Hogan wins, he and Bischoff have to tear out of the building in disgust. Hogan and Bischoff, thinking Russo has seen the light, agree.

So, the first video there happens, goes down according to Hogan's plan. He even swore, just to put over how mad he was.

And then, after Hogan and Bischoff left… Russo shot. That entire promo was him violating Hogan's Creative Control, violating Hogan's "No mention the baldness" clause, and basically causing a massive lawsuit costing AOL/Time-Warner millions. Clearly Russo's finest hour.

I'm fairly sure that's the biggest political kerfuffle on camera. Any others people want explained?

My Damm Opinion

411's Own Aaron Titan is back.

Who do you feel will be the next NEW, FIRST TIME WWE or World Heavywight Champion (someone who hasn't been a major world champion before). If I had to guess right now, I'd go with Christian (though he was TNA/NWA Champion i the past I suppose) since he's my pick to win MITB at WM26 and cash in on a champion Edge. Since Christian was a former world champ in another company, my technical pick for this question is The Miz. I honestly don't see Morrison getting the strap anytime soon given the exact reasons you listed last week, Kofi's not quite there yet, and McIntyre, DiBiase, and others aren't either. What are your thoughts?

The overall answer to that question can be seen below, when I book how I think he'll win it. But for a name that is 100% Never World Champ before, I don't think Miz will because he's too useful in the midcard, and Morrison no for reasons I've listed earlier. I think Kofi will win the July MITB (he should be rebuilt by then), and then cash it in for a win at the November PPV/TLC. Although I'm not sure how long that reign will last.

Larry (not Bossman Larry, another Larry) is thinking conspiracy.

Hey Matt.

One question: could Vince McMahon once again screw Bret Hart at Wrestlemania XXVI? With an ending similar to the one at Survivor Series? Would Bret Hart have some sort of protection in his contract against a similar ending to their match? I just have a bad feeling about this...

THX. Love the column.

Could Vince McMahon re-screw Bret? Well, yes, he's the boss, he could if he really wanted to. But if he did, he'd have a major riot in the locker room, moreso than last time because there would be no possible justification for it, and he'd be sued the second Bret's lawyer got to a phone. I'm fairly sure that there is something akin to the ‘Reasonable Creative Control' clause that caused all the problems last time to avoid the possibility of a second screw job.

Given all the hard work WWE has done to get the match to happen, with Bret and Shawn and Lloyd's of London and such, I refuse to believe that Vince is so egotistical to go through all that just to re-screw Bret.

Continuing with that theme, it's Bryan!

In Vince McMahon's attempt to goad Bret Hart into having a match with him, do you think bringing up Owen's name in attempt to get heat would make the match bigger or just disgust people to where they don't even care to watch?

The second one. Bringing up Owen would just make the whole thing icky and piss people off the wrong way. Plus Owen's widow would almost certainly go ballistic should they bring it up, given how adamant she's been so far about Owen and the WWE. But yeah, Owen being brought in would be icky. And no-one's exactly missing his prescience in this feud.

(And if you can fill in a punchline to that last sentence, you're a sick sick person who's in on the ‘joke'. And if you have no idea what I'm talking about, well done. Have an Irish Tara.)

and second, would the WWE or TNA make money by allowing people to buy PPV in advance, 3, 6 or even 12 months at once for a sort of bulk discount. Like 12 ppv's for the price of 10 or something. Would that have worked during the 1990's when WCW and ECW ran a PPV every month and people had more money?

It's a nice idea, but too hard to run, given that you'd have to cut deals with every PPV carrier, and that's a whole lot of negotiation. Maybe if a wrestling company only ran on one carrier (like ECW did at first) then it might be viable, or your online PPV feeds, but it's too complicated (if someone moves, do they carry over the purchase?) to work at the moment. Money isn't so much the issue (discounts are good!), just that it's hideously complicated.

Darren from New Jersey wants my thoughts on two people post WM.

1. Do you think Christian will ever win the WWE title or World Heavyweight championship? I think Christian is awesome. He is a solid worker, charismatic, and the crowd loves him, but Vince seems like he'll never give him that push. I'd love to see Christian win MITB this year, but I doubt he will, if Kofi gets in, he will definitely win.... Will Christian ever get the push to the top? I guess this is more an opinion than a question. Good work with the column, I've never wrote you before but I read it every week. Also, what are your thoughts on HBK? Is he done after Mania? I figured they would give him the belt one more time before he retired.

Well, I'll end on this since it's controversial in a good way.

I think Christian will walk out of Wrestlemania as World Champion, and I am picking Shawn to break the Streak.

As far as Christian goes, my thinking is in lots of small, logical steps. July has a PPV called Money In The Bank. Thus, logically, there will be a MITB match on that show. Ergo, Wrestlemania's MITB will probably be used up before then. With one in July, you could, in fact, blow MITB that night. Next month, at the usual ‘Backlash' spot, it's now Extreme Rules. So a Wrestlemania rematch, to be great, would have people used to such matches. Now, Edge, while doing quite well, is not quite the same guy as he left. Plus the face thing isn't totally working out for him. So, perhaps, they might have Jericho win. But you can't have Jericho walk out with the belt, if Shawn's winning. So, who's in MITB, has experience with extreme matches, and is someone Jericho and Edge trust, like, and would be willing to help elevate?

Christian Cage, come on down!

So, by my logic, Christian leaves WM with big gold belt in hand. And maybe loses it back to Jericho or to a heel Edge next month if he doesn't work out.

As for HBK… I'm not sure Taker will last another year. Plus, Shawn's not exactly a heel at the moment. He's just barely this side of the line. And it's No Holds Barred.

And so, what if Shawn just snapped? I mean, he hits a dozen superkicks. Then a few Tombstones. And a Pedigree. Then he creates the Crucifix Pillmanisation, when he puts a chair on each arm, leg and neck, and then stomps on all of them for a few minutes. Then he sets Taker on fire. Then drops a nuclear bomb. Then, hell, locks in the Christian Crossface for the KO, Ref's Decision finish.

Shawn Michaels is now your biggest heel of the last 100 years. He can rule Raw for a year, then get retired next year by Cena.

But if he does lose at WM? He'll be gone for a while, then someone will call himself the new Showstopper, or will hunt him down and demand he fight him, or Taker will find him to stand by his side against Jericho and Edge or something. He'll be back.

But how about you guys? You think I'm crazy or what?