The 411 Wrestling Top 5 7.21.10: Week 84 – Innovators
Posted by Michael Bauer on 07.21.2010
From promoters like Vince McMahon and the character work of Gorgeous George to the tag team wrestling of the Rock and Roll Express and the high flying of Rey Mysterio, the 411 Staff gives their thoughts on the Top 5 Innovators in the latest edition of the 411 Wrestling Top Five!
Hello everyone and welcome to 411 Wrestling's Top 5 List. What we are going to is take a topic each week and all the writers here on 411 wrestling will have the ability to give us their Top 5 on said topic, plus up to three honorable mentions. Most of our topics will be based on recent events in the Wrestling World, looking at those events that make us think of times past.
So, on to this week's topic…
Top 5 Innovators
I didn't give any specific criteria this week, because being innovative can be shown in a plethora of ways, from in and out of the ring. Even if you don't have the greatest body of work in the ring, you can still innovate with your actions and decision making that makes that in-ring work amazing.
So what did our group of writers select? Let's find out…
Ryan Byers
HONORABLE MENTIONS (up to 3)
Nova - Nova invented being innovative.
5. Rey Misterio, Jr. - When we did the Top 5 Light Heavyweights just last week, I gave Rey Rey a lot of credit for his innovations south of the border, where he was the first man to integrate American wrestling psychology into lucha libre. The result was a sea change in the type of matches that we see coming out of Mexico that is still being felt today. To top it all off, Misterio was a key part of the revolution of US in-ring style that occurred in the mid and late 1990's, as things got significantly faster paced and harder hitting thanks to a new band of smaller wrestlers invading WCW and later the WWF.
4. Martin Kardagian - Here's another one that I've touched on very recently on the website, this time in my Into the Indies column on Argentinian professional wrestling. Kardagian's promotion in Argentina was perhaps the first to market directly to children, it was the first to license hundreds of products related to its wrestlers, and it was among the first to have a roster that consisted of nothing but wacky, over the top gimmick wrestlers. Kardagian was a direct inspiration for Antonio Pena when Pena started up Mexico's AAA promotion, and he was engaging in WWE-style marketing decades before Vince McMahon bought his father's company. His wrestling may not have been the type that modern day smarks love, but it drew big and made a lot of important advancements in how the sport is marketed.
3. Gorgeous George - My colleagues have come close to saying everything that there is to say about George within the confines of two or three sentences. He wasn't the best wrestler in the world, but, as one of the first guys to devote so much time and energy to a pro wrestling gimmick, well before that sort of thing became a prerequisite to succeeding in the business. Since much I wanted to say already has been and I have a little bit of extra space to kill, I will take a second to plug John Capouya's excellent book about Double G for those who may not have heard of it.
2. Rikidozan - Before Rikidozan came around, there was no professional wrestling presented in Japan for Japanese people. Period. Riki took American wrestling, which he had seen presented for US servicemen occupying Japan after World War II, and turned it into something that he could market to his countrymen. (Well . . . the guys who were kinda, sorta his countrymen. Rikidozan was Korean by birth, though that was well-hidden.) It was immediately successful, and several wrestling matches are still among the top ten highest-rated television broadcasts in Japanese history. When you can essentially create pro wrestling in a country and define what it is for millions of people, you deserve a spot on a list of innovators.
1. Vince McMahon - This one strikes me as a real no-brainer. McMahon, over the course of the past twenty-five years, has constantly defined and redefined what professional wrestling is to most fans in the United States, and, more recently, the whole world. If nothing else, he deserves credit for his pioneering use of syndication (and later cable) to promote the WWF in every major market across the country, making it the first truly national touring wrestling promotion. Combine that with making pay per view the predominant means through which wrestling promotions make money, and you truly do have an innovative, revolutionary figure.
Aaron Hubbard
HONORABLE MENTIONS
Jushin Liger - Took what Tiger Mask did and brought it to the next level; in many ways, the forefather of modern cruiserweight wrestling.
Sabu - Creative, high-flying and violent, Sabu inspired plenty of cheap imitators who were never able to use props the way he was.
The Rock & Roll Express - Perfected the babyface formula of American Tag Team Wrestling; the inspiration for the Rockers, the Hardy Boys, London & Kendrick and the Motor City Machine Guns, among others.
5. Kurt Angle - It might seem weird to include a guy as recent as Angle in the list, especially when you look at the other ones on here. However, Angle is largely responsible for a huge style change across American Wrestling. His counter-heavy style revolutionized the way WWE main events were done, and everyone from Edge to John Cena has adapted that style for their big matches (not the moves, but the structure). He helped bring MMA-style offense and submission wrestling back to prominence, which caused established performers like Shawn Michaels and Undertaker to change up their offense. A few other wrestlers (Benoit, Shamrock, Guerrero) also deserve credit for this, but Angle was the big one.
4. Bruiser Brody - Bruiser Brody wasn't the first brawler, but he was probably the best. While other wrestlers were able to use gimmicks and take huge risks to create creative brawls, Brody was a guy who got by on sheer intensity, intimidating size, pure athleticism, and blood. Lots and lots of blood. Paul Heyman says that the WWE Attitude Main Event Style was ripped of the ECW style, but the ECW style was a rip-off of Brody's style.
3. Lou Thesz - In a time where many wrestlers were content to use headlocks and bear hugs for minutes at a time because everyone believed it was "real", Thesz was a man who was constantly picking up the pace and looking for new moves to use. So many moves that we take for granted today, like the backdrop suplex, the double wristlock (surfboard stretch), STF, and even the powerbomb were innovated by Thesz. If there was an IWC in the Golden Age, Thesz would have been the biggest Internet Darling of them all. Almost every great worker since Thesz owes a large portion of their wrestling style to Thesz.
2. Tiger Mask I - Satoru Sayama, the original Tiger Mask, was doing things in the early 1980's that most athletes still don't do today. His mix of graceful lucha-libre and martial arts combined was mind-blowing at the time and holds up well today. Every high-flying cruiserweight owes a debt to the original Tiger Mask. His series with the Dynamite Kid produced outstanding matches, and they pretty much invented the style that the smart marks love.
1. Gorgeous George - Gorgeous George was an American pop culture icon. Some television experts estimate that in his day, no one was more visible than Gorgeous George, and that is something that even Hulk Hogan and Steve Austin cannot say. He invented over-the-top gimmicks; bleach-blond hair, extravagant robes, pompous struts, dastardly cheating. You would not have seen Buddy Rogers, Nick Bockwinkel, Curt Hennig, Ric Flair, or Shawn Michaels if not for Gorgeous George. Not the most innovative in-ring performer of all-time, but in terms of impact on the business and changing it from an entertaining sport to sports entertainment, Gorgeous George is one of the true greats.
Larry Csonka This was a very hard list to compile. Michael gave us a wide birth to choose things, and that is great, but will also leave a lot open to interpretation. I have tried to pick a diverse collection of innovators in different areas to truly have fun with the list. Also, I try to go away from the norm in an effort to keep the lists as different as possible.
5. Innovator of "The Money Look": Superstar Billy Graham - Superstar Billy Graham innovated what I call The Money Look. The Money Look is for guys with good promo skills, million dollar bodies, little or poor wrestling ability, but a lot of charisma. Superstar Billy Graham led to Jesse Ventura, which led to Hulk Hogan and later to Scott Steiner (when he was broken down from injury). Superstar Billy Graham was the man that set the stage, and all of them drew money.
4. Innovative Character: Gorgeous George - In the age of wrestling where being serious and straight laced was the norm, Gorgeous George. Gorgeous George in many ways is the Great Grandfather of sports entertainment as far as the outlandish character goes. Gorgeous George influences Buddy Rogers, Adrian Street, Goldust and even non-wrestlers like Little Richard and Liberache. His was the man when TV first hit, and someone that newer fans really need to research.
3. Innovative Tag Teams: The Fabulous Freebirds - While there are a lot of teams to look at for various reasons, when I think about innovative tag teams, I have to go back to the Freebirds. You had the entrance, the music, Michael Hayes acting like a fucking ROCK STAR, Terry Gordy being one of the BEST big men to ever grace the ring, and of course, Freebird rules, which have been ripped off for years whenever a decent three man unit comes along.
I want to tell you a story
about a place you don't wanna be.
This ain't no home sweet home,
it's a home sweet misery.
We knew when we got here
they'd try to put us away.
But when they seen us walk down
the street they ran the other way.
Badstreet, Atlanta, GA
Baddest street in the whole USA
Badstreet nasty and hot
The further down the block you went, the badder it got.
2. Innovative Lightweights: Dynamite Kid and Tiger Mask - We discussed these guys last week, but quiet simply when it comes to lightweight wrestling, THESE guys are the innovators. In the early 1980's, these guys were the architects of lightweight wrestling. Their series of matches are so good that you can pop them in today and they will still blow away 90% of what is being put out today, in any promotion, anywhere in the world. Tiger Mask and The Dynamite Kid were THE reason that I got into watching the lightweight wrestlers, and I thank them for it.
1. Innovative Promoters: Vince McMahon - And finally, we come to the promoter and when it comes to the promoter, you have to discuss Vince McMahon. Whether you love him or hate him, Vince McMahon is a huge reason why the wrestling business is where it is today. He broke the word, he went after "the five fathers" as it were, and e led the most violent takeover in wrestling history and has been on top, for the most part, ever since. Vince went all in, and it paid off. Some view this as just a takeover, and nothing more, but breaking the word and looking to be completely national was innovative, and that is why he is #1.
The fact that Hulk Hogan appears on none of these lists speaks to your idiocy.
Posted By: Jim (Guest) on July 20, 2010 at 11:30 PM
What about my offence?
Posted By: Tommy Dreaming (Guest) on July 20, 2010 at 11:33 PM
Hulk who?
Posted By: ZERO (Registered) on July 20, 2010 at 11:38 PM
Eric Bischoff!!!!!!!!!
Innovations: live tv; swerves; stealing talent; lying; working the smarks; exposing the business; etc
Posted By: ROH Commish (Guest) on July 20, 2010 at 11:44 PM
Duh!
Posted By: Paul Roma (Guest) on July 20, 2010 at 11:45 PM
Hulk Hogan, Shawn Michaels, Eric Bischoff, Kevin Nash, and Fabulous Moolah would all like to know what you guys have been smoking.
Posted By: Bobby (Guest) on July 20, 2010 at 11:47 PM
How about Ed 'Strangler' Lewis?
He turned wrestling from a 'shoot' to a 'work' b/c nobody could beat him.
Posted By: Guest#5013 (Guest) on July 20, 2010 at 11:55 PM
I think the Grand Wizard should make it in on a managers list
Posted By: nWo (Guest) on July 20, 2010 at 11:58 PM
The fact that Hulk Hogan appears on none of these lists speaks to your idiocy.
Posted By: Jim (Guest) on July 20, 2010 at 11:30 PM
Ummmm didn't Csonka cover that whole Hogan thing with Billy Graham?
Posted By: Guest#3801 (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 12:06 AM
To the people crying about Hulk Hogan's exclusion from these lists. Hogan did absolutley nothing innovative in the wretsling buisness. He had a generic ring style. He had a larger than life presence, but other wrestlers did that. The only difference between Hogan and the wrestlers before him was that Vince McMahon made it possible for him to perform on a national scale.
Posted By: J.J.T. (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 12:11 AM
u mentioned the freebirds but forgot to mention buddy roberts who i think was a underated part of the freebirds not to mention part of the classic lineup u also put a pic of them an i think thats jimmie garvin right
Posted By: dave (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 12:20 AM
Hulk Hogan, Shawn Michaels, Eric Bischoff, Kevin Nash, and Fabulous Moolah would all like to know what you guys have been smoking.
Posted By: Bobby (Guest) on July 20, 2010 at 11:47 PM
Nash? And all Moolah did was hold the title for 30 years. Womens wrestling has never been a draw, and everybody that talks about how great she was probably never saw any of her matches.
Posted By: Guest#9978 (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 12:20 AM
Superstar Billy Graham innovated all of Hulk Hogan's material.
Posted By: Heel Heat (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 12:24 AM
Everywhere I look I see it spelled Mysterio as opposed to Misterio? I know the orginal went by Misterio, but it seems Oscar's name has evolved into Mysterio or are we just being smarky?
Posted By: Guest#8753 (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 12:38 AM
Honestly how an EARTH did Hulk Hogan NOT make these lists.
He was the key component in turning wrestling into what we know today as 'sports entertainment' he is the reason we all watch ranging from all demographics be it kids to adults. With Vince's vision and Hogan's showmanship he made wrestling MARKETABLE to the masses.
Cena is currently a modern prototype of what Hogan was back in the day... he is top of the food chain for that very reason.
Grrrr at these lists. Smart fans can sometimes be so blinded sometimes.
PS I'm not a Hogan fan either but I respect what he achieved.
Posted By: Andrew Barbarash (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 12:40 AM
Nash? And all Moolah did was hold the title for 30 years. Womens wrestling has never been a draw, and everybody that talks about how great she was probably never saw any of her matches.
Posted By: Guest#9978 (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 12:20 AM
_______________________________________
Yes, Nash. He made it cool to be a heel and was also a babyface with attitude long before Stone Cold started giving everyone the finger. And if you aren't familiar with what Fabulous Moolah has accomplished, I'd suggest you read her book.
Posted By: Bobby (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 12:40 AM
As much as I loved hogan in the 80's when i was a kid, he doesnt belong on this list because he wasnt an innovator, he was the absolute right guy for the job at the right time, not an innovator
Posted By: TFinn (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 12:48 AM
I'm so irked by this list.... I'm gonna rant some more!
Hogan got his influences from others be it Billy Graham and Gorgeous George, but how Hogan was marketed (and yes he contributed massively with Vince's vision behind the scenes too) is what makes him the biggest innovator.
Facts are we wouldn't be complying any of these lists or even know who Georgous George was if Hogan didn't achieve what he did in the mid 80's.
Hogan as the image brought wrestling to prominence in the mainstream and part of pop culture, that clearly makes him number one of wrestling innovators as far as in ring performers go.
Posted By: Andrew Barbarash (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 12:48 AM
As much as I loved hogan in the 80's when i was a kid, he doesnt belong on this list because he wasnt an innovator, he was the absolute right guy for the job at the right time, not an innovator
Posted By: TFinn (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 12:48 AM
If being the "right guy for the job at the right time" disqualifies someone from being an innovator, then no one is an innovator.
Posted By: scott (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 01:24 AM
"Yes, Nash. He made it cool to be a heel and was also a babyface with attitude long before Stone Cold started giving everyone the finger. And if you aren't familiar with what Fabulous Moolah has accomplished, I'd suggest you read her book."
If you think Nash belongs on the top 5 innovators of all time, you are a moron. Hulk Hogan made it cool to be a heel, and Fabulous Moolah has to wait in line behind the men folk. And Nash is not in the top 100 innovators, by the way.
Posted By: Jim (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 01:38 AM
Undertaker as an HM, if just for the matches he has been involved in, which were obviously created for or made very popular by his persona. Casket match, HIAC, buried alive, and the inferno match. Paul Heyman as well. He popularized the "hardcore" style of booking, booked wrestlers to their strengths and hid their weaknesses very well, brought cutting edge promos, matches, and storylines into the mainstream, such as women wrestling men, the lesbian kiss, and the storyline involving Sandman, Raven, and Sandman's wife and son. It was Vince who basically stole Heyman's extreme style of booking and what made much of the Attitude Era popular and memorable. Heyman can be partially thanked for the Attitude Era, even though he didn't work for the WWF at the time.
Posted By: Andis (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 02:13 AM
Also, the Undertaker's entire character has turned almost a complete 180 from when he first debuted. His matches were slow and plodding like any normal big man, and his character, while not kid friendly to any stretch of the imagination, was not unusual for the early to mid 90's. Since then, he has had 3 gimmick overhauls that have worked successfully, expanded his repertoire immensely, added MMA to his style, and has become one of the most agile big men of all time, while still keeping the same name and aura after nearly 20 years. Innovative? Only time will tell.
Posted By: Andis (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 02:21 AM
You could profitably have divided this into wrestlers this week and non-wrestlers next (or even in-ring innovators e.g. Tiger Mask, Brody, Thesz and Rey, stylistic innovators e.g. the 'Birds, George and Graham and promotional innovators e.g. Vince, Kardagian and Rikidozan).
As it stands, so many people have had to be overlooked - not a single manager, for example, and others above have commented on other omissions.
Side note - have you guys ever considered using readers' choices? You could announce the topic for next week at the end of an article and allow people to write in - then when you get a week when only three staff writers are able to respond, you've got two or three readers' selections to pad it out. In a week where five or six staff writers respond, you could just use one (I'd suggest never making it none!). Just a thought.
Posted By: Dave_W (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 05:15 AM
Hogan as the image brought wrestling to prominence in the mainstream and part of pop culture, that clearly makes him number one of wrestling innovators as far as in ring performers go.
Posted By: Andrew Barbarash (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 12:48 AM
---
So just what did Hogan do that was so innovative, so new, something that hadn't been done before or set a trend for others to follow. It's no good saying he took wrestling to the masses, he played the same guy in WWF as he did in AWA simple as that, Vince MaMahon (for better or worse) put wrestling in the mainstream not Hogan.
Posted By: TheR (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 05:23 AM
angle absolutely maybe the most sensible thing ive ever read on this website
Posted By: lee (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 05:56 AM
Why does everyone always forget about Toots Mondt in the 1920s the guy invented the modern style of wrestling that every promoter since has adapted.
Posted By: Britishfan (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 06:12 AM
The Rock?
Posted By: gwpbrian (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 07:17 AM
@Aaron Hubbard, everything you said about Kurt Angle should be given credit to Ken Shamrock. He never won a world title, but his move set was pretty much stolen by Angle. The MMA style should be attributed to Shamrock and I hate to say it but to Taz. Before Taz in ECW and Shamrock in WWF, wrestlers did not tap out, they submitted. These two changed that to imitate MMA and now you dont submit, you tap. Go back before Shamrock and watch any WWF match with submission attempts, 90% of the guys were tapping the mat and would have lost by todays rules.
Posted By: Champ (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 07:27 AM
Kanyon for innovative offense, surely. that guy did stuff in the ring that I have never seen before or since
Posted By: PdM (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 07:50 AM
Nova invented Top 5 Innovators lists!
Posted By: Mike Bucci (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 08:02 AM
Honestly how an EARTH did Hulk Hogan NOT make these lists.
Posted By: Andrew Barbarash (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 12:40 AM
Because he didnt INNOVATE anything. In various other lists he would probably be number 1, but not in a list about innovators.
Posted By: Guest#8068 (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 08:21 AM
Good, reasonable, lists for the most part. I could argue for the inclusion of the Road Warriors, who basically ushered in the 80's construct of finding million dollar bodies and turning them into workers, whereas previously, there was a lot more time spend developing workers. I believe the Roadies went from discovery to main eventing within a year or so. Maybe Hawk had worked for 2 years, Animal debuted and their look got so immediately over, they were pushed.
Posted By: Marty Funkhowser (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 08:38 AM
Bischoff does deserve at least an honourable mention. The NW0 revolutionized wrestling, and his bringing over mexican and japanesse stars was something not done on a national scale.
Posted By: Greg (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 08:59 AM
Paul Heyman?
Posted By: Bleh (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 09:14 AM
KANYON!!!!!!!!
Posted By: Guest#5709 (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 09:42 AM
Where's Dixie Carter? Or Jeff Jarrett? How about Vince Russo? I'm serious, you know that. Don't you? Please don't laugh!
Well, I guess we can laugh a little.
Posted By: billy (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 10:06 AM
Whoever came up with the Judy Bagwell on a pole match. Now THAT is innovation.
Posted By: Dr. Jones (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 10:27 AM
I dont think anyone can truthfully criticize anyones list... this topic is great but is SO open to interpretation. We might need a Top 100 list and Im dead serious. Because there were innovators in so many different categories. Off the top of my head we still need Snuka, Piper, Buddy Rogers, Heyman, Sunny, Goldust, LOD, Heenan, and countless others.
Posted By: Guest#0883 (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 10:33 AM
Yes, Nash. He made it cool to be a heel and was also a babyface with attitude long before Stone Cold started giving everyone the finger. And if you aren't familiar with what Fabulous Moolah has accomplished, I'd suggest you read her book.
Posted By: Bobby (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 12:40 AM
Nash was the lowest drawing champion in WWE history. So how many people were actually watching him be "cool".?
As for Moolah, she held the title when nobody gave a damn about womans wrestling. Outside of her dropping the strap to Ricther, I can't remember a single thing about her career. I'd say Trish Stratus's five years in the business did more for woman wrestling than Moolah.
And I wouldn't put Trish anywhere on this list either, because she was really just a mega hot chick that could sort of wrestle. I think guys would rather have her poster on their wall than watch her fight. And she will probably be more famous for yoga when it's all said and done.
Posted By: Guest#6169 (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 10:55 AM
WWF started coming alng just about when cable tv did so if anybody should get credit for putting people on a national stage, it's cable tv. And good ole Vince is more notorious for stealing ideas than coming up with his own. And the ideas that start in the WWE, it's not like Vinnie comes up with it himself, he has freakin writers. As far as being the first national touring wrestling promotion? Ever heard of the NWA? The top NWA stars toured plenty. Just like the wwe "superstars" tour, but the wrestlers in their couple of developmental territories don't. So get Vinnie off this list until you come up with something he has innovated, other than rearing sheep. End of rant.
Posted By: Wayne (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 11:03 AM
How the hell was Hulk Hogan innovative? Quiet down.
Posted By: Banz (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 11:17 AM
The Goldust Trio! Where are they ?? Ed Lewis, Billy Sandow and Toots Mondt. They basically created the wrestling card and other related aspects you see today. You can thank them for modern professional wrestling.
Posted By: Cyber (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 11:28 AM
First off...
Honestly how an EARTH did Hulk Hogan NOT make these lists.
He was the key component in turning wrestling into what we know today as 'sports entertainment' he is the reason we all watch ranging from all demographics be it kids to adults. With Vince's vision and Hogan's showmanship he made wrestling MARKETABLE to the masses.
Cena is currently a modern prototype of what Hogan was back in the day... he is top of the food chain for that very reason.
Grrrr at these lists. Smart fans can sometimes be so blinded sometimes.
PS I'm not a Hogan fan either but I respect what he achieved.
Posted By: Andrew Barbarash (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 12:40 AM
Andrew, you dumbass, read the Billy Graham section.
And Czonka, Where the hell is the love towards the most innovative the most charasmatic, the most sexiest wrestler to have EVER graced this green sphere we call Earth? I'm better than you and your week ass list! I'm better than the Horsemen! And if it weren't for me giving Vince McMahon the advice to do what he did, there would be no wrestling today! Period!
Posted By: Paul Roma (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 11:32 AM
Hogan wasn't on the list because it's popular to hate him on the internet. Vince is #1 and Hogan is #2 easily.
Posted By: AJ (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 11:38 AM
If you are going to credit Rikidozan, then you have to give credit to the Yakuza, since Rikidozan was fully a product of the Yakuza. And since the left Japanese wrestling under the control of the Yakuza until this day, I don't know if thats such a great inovation.
Dynamite kid should have been on everyone's list.
Posted By: Brianb (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 11:43 AM
Including Angle is a joke. If he's in, you'd have to also include every wrestler who has ever changed the main event style of any prominent company. ie: Hogan, Sting, Hart, Michaels, Austin, Foley, etc.
Posted By: Chris (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 11:47 AM
"Yes, Nash. He made it cool to be a heel and was also a babyface with attitude long before Stone Cold started giving everyone the finger".
Austin wasn't trying to be cool. There were cool heels long before Nash. The 4 Horsemen, Midnight Express, Bret Hart. The only difference is those guys could actually make the faces look good and not bury them.
top 5 of my time
1. Road Warriors
2. Rey Mysterio
3. Sabu
4. Steiner Bros.
5. Midnight Express
Posted By: jcm (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 11:55 AM
well someone already pointed it out and sort of got me thinking. I have the same opinion on what Angle did was take Shamrock's archetype and added his charisma to make it take off. Like the man said wrestlers like benoit, guerrero and a few others were already doing this style to a degree, hell Angle saw guys like Taz doing it in ECW before his ultimate decision to stick with and debut in WWF/E, however at the time none of them were giving off I guess charisma with it. All Angle did was add that to it but, as far as styles go he wasn't necessarily the innovator.
And thats part of the argument people have against including Hulk Hogan. he took the arhetype of someone else and managed to put a lil more charisma to it....the others that did it had the charisma but at the time none of the promoters could get it on that national/center stage the way the McMahon family had begun to do. Its a grey area in what you choose to believe...hogan will say he helped guide Vince...and vice versa from Vince but had one of Vince's other assets back in the 80s truly caught fire like Hogan did then...Hogan might have had to share the spotlight back then and at the time, thats not how the WWF ran things...they went with the single biggest talent and worked around that. Hell remember title reigns back in the day used to last damn near a year plus long until another hot asset seemed ready to be the work horse of the company and if that investment didn't pan out then Vince would go back to his primary asset that he built up which was Hogan. If that much investment was put into more than one character...who knows. But thats why some will not call Hogan an innovator.....for laughs you could say he was the ultimate opportunist before Edge even knew what that was.
Posted By: Guest#2904 (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 01:08 PM
How in the blue demon jr. is PAUL HEYMAN not on anyone's list. The guy did so much for North American wrestling. Sure the hardcore stuff was done to death in Memphis and innovated even further by FMW in Japan. But what about the storylines, the promos, the tv presentation, bringing in luchadores and japanese wrestlers and the working of his audience? He was the catalyst of the most profitable era in wrestling. The guy deserves to be on one of these lists.
Posted By: bighustle "screw hogan" (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 01:24 PM
Nash? And all Moolah did was hold the title for 30 years. Womens wrestling has never been a draw, and everybody that talks about how great she was probably never saw any of her matches.
Posted By: Guest#9978 (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 12:20 AM
_______________________________________
Yes, Nash. He made it cool to be a heel and was also a babyface with attitude long before Stone Cold started giving everyone the finger. And if you aren't familiar with what Fabulous Moolah has accomplished, I'd suggest you read her book.
Posted By: Bobby (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 12:40 AM
Gotta agree with #9978...by your reasoning, Bobby, you'd have to include Scott Hall on your list, and ANY list of the Top 5 Innovators in Wrestling that includes Scott Hall (and for that matter, Kevin Nash) is INVALID due to it's being just plain DUMB...
Posted By: idiot savant (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 01:46 PM
Trish Stratus. Every woman that WWE pushes is an attempt to catch the lightning in a bottle they had with her.
Posted By: Guest#6933 (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 02:28 PM
"I'm so irked by this list.... I'm gonna rant some more!
Hogan got his influences from others be it Billy Graham and Gorgeous George, but how Hogan was marketed (and yes he contributed massively with Vince's vision behind the scenes too) is what makes him the biggest innovator.
Facts are we wouldn't be complying any of these lists or even know who Georgous George was if Hogan didn't achieve what he did in the mid 80's.
Hogan as the image brought wrestling to prominence in the mainstream and part of pop culture, that clearly makes him number one of wrestling innovators as far as in ring performers go.
Posted By: Andrew Barbarash (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 12:48 AM"
I think you guys are confusing popularity with innovation. Hogan is without a doubt the most popular figure ever in wrestling. But was he truly innovative? Nope.
Usually innovators are never the most popular figures, but somebody comes along later and takes what they did to new heights (ie: Michael Jordan taking Dr. J's air-defying dunks to new heights).
Nobody will ever question Hogan's popularity. But he was NOT an innovator. He took bits and pieces of what others did before him to make himself a highly marketable package.
Hogan himself has stated that he was greatly influenced by Superstar Billy Graham. Innovators dont get influenced. Innovators are the ones who influence others.
Posted By: Monty (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 02:32 PM
Personality: Gorgeous George - anyone who got by based on look and promos above wrestling skill.
Wrestling (Old School): Lou Thesz - brought wrestling out of the slow and plodding structure into a more athletic and flamboyant in-ring product.
Wrestling (New School): Jushin Liger - while maybe not the first - but was the first well known and popular wrestler with a high-flying style. Proved that undersized wrestlers with a high impact style could be considered threats - without him then guys like Guerrero, Benoit, Rey, Shawn Michaels - all undersized guys - would have been lifetime jobbers.
Product: Vince McMahon Jr. - easy. From creating the first national wrestling program to Rock and Wrestling to PPV - created the pre-eminent brand in wrestling and is the benchmark for all other promotions.
Promotion: ECW - while other promotions evolved, ECW created an aggressive brand of wrestling and story-telling that you couldn't find anywhere else. If the WWE was The Beatles, then ECW was Black Sabbath.
Posted By: SpankyHamm (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 02:36 PM
"Nash was the lowest drawing champion in WWE history. So how many people were actually watching him be "cool".?"
What does that have to do with innovation?
And while we're on the subject, how many people watched ECW during its original run? How many people actually saw Austin vs. Bret when it happened? How many people saw Flair vs. Steamboat when it happened? There were a lot of great moments that occurred when not a lot of people were watching.
Posted By: scott (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 03:03 PM
you mean my offence?
Posted By: The Ghost of Chris Kanyon (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 03:18 PM
How was the Fabulous Moolah innovative? She wasn't even the first woman's wrestling star as Mildred Burke came before her.
Posted By: Guest#5112 (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 03:49 PM
The fact that Hulk Hogan appears on none of these lists speaks to your idiocy.
Posted By: Jim (Guest) on July 20, 2010 at 11:30 PM
He wasn't an innovator. He was the bi-product of insane booking and backstage politics. Billy Graham and Jesse Ventura were Hulk Hogan before Hulk Hogan was.
Posted By: Lol (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 04:49 PM
Hulk Hogan, Shawn Michaels, Eric Bischoff, Kevin Nash, and Fabulous Moolah would all like to know what you guys have been smoking.
___________________________________
What did they innovate? Hogan copied Ventura & Graham. HBK copied every heel and underdog babyface before him. Nash? I'm lost here. Nash? Reall? Bischoff didn't innovate anything. Don't even say the nWo that was not innovative. Moolah I guess I'll give you, but she didn't really innovate anything. Women's wrestling is a joke today so her innovation is lost and gone.
Posted By: Marcus (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 04:54 PM
By the way all great lists. Strangler Lewis could have been mentioned as he was the first guy to really make it scripted.
The idiots in the Comment section are really showing their ignorance and age.
Posted By: Marcus (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 04:57 PM
"Yes, Nash. He made it cool to be a heel and was also a babyface with attitude long before Stone Cold started giving everyone the finger. And if you aren't familiar with what Fabulous Moolah has accomplished, I'd suggest you read her book."
If you think Nash belongs on the top 5 innovators of all time, you are a moron. Hulk Hogan made it cool to be a heel, and Fabulous Moolah has to wait in line behind the men folk. And Nash is not in the top 100 innovators, by the way.
Posted By: Jim (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 01:38 AM
Man, Diesel run from being beat by Bret after Survivor Series '95 through April 96 would like to have a word with you. When Diesel was heel and was cool with it, it was awesome. Remember when he walked through the curtain at WM 12 before his match with the Undertaker and screamed, "I'm The Shit!!!" Pure Awesomeness!
That's just me though.
Posted By: swiftychampleone (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 04:59 PM
One last thing: Brianb, you are thinking of MMA in Japan. Pro Wrestling was never controlled by any Yakuza.
Posted By: Marcus (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 04:59 PM
"I want to tell you a story
about a place you don't wanna be.
This ain't no home sweet home,
it's a home sweet misery.
We knew when we got here
they'd try to put us away.
But when they seen us walk down
the street they ran the other way.
Badstreet, Atlanta, GA
Baddest street in the whole USA
Badstreet nasty and hot
The further down the block you went, the badder it got."
Thanks a lot, punk. Now I got that video and song running through my head. Must head over to youtube now.
Posted By: Comment Board Poster (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 04:59 PM
What did Hulk hogan innovate? He stole his gimmick off Billy Graham, he made it better but he hardly innovated it. The only thing he innovated was the take your vitamins BS that he used to spew.
Im not hating on Hogan, I just think some of you guys need to look up the definition of innovation.
Posted By: Mentalist (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 05:59 PM
As far as innovators go, why has no one mentioned the Original Sheik? I'm pretty sure he introduced the insane blood-letting hardcore style which influenced guys like me (look it up - I patterned my style after him), Bruiser Brody, and a lot of the ECW madness.
Freddie Blassie made people bleed too, but Sheik took it to another level, what with the foreign objects (pencils, razors, fire, snakes) and the insane promos.
And maybe you could add Buddy Rogers to the list, because anyone who thinks Ric Flair was an innovator obviously knows nothing about pro wrasslin' history.
As for Hogan being an innovator ... excuse me while I swallow my forks. Like Bruno Sammartino before him, Hogan took various bits from others, added a ton of charisma, and built them up into a huge money maker. Nothing wrong with that, but that's not innovation.
Posted By: Abdullah The Butcher (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 06:13 PM
Ultimate Warrior set the trend for the short term success stories, those guys that are huge for a couple of years and then leave the business. Guys like Goldberg and Brock Lesnar followed in his footsteps.
Posted By: Guest#6837 (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 07:53 PM
How the smurf do you not include men on a mission?? Without them, no john cena rap album,no r truth.no limit soldiers...the
Posted By: carlos colonic (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 08:22 PM
Okay, I'm all for giving credit where credit is due. Eric Bischoff deserves more credit.
He initiated the Monday night wars - you know, the most profitable era in wrestling history? It was his idea to go head to head with RAW. Not Ted Turner's, not Paul Heyman's. Yes, he creeated the NWO, which, had it been played out as intended, was an awesome idea. He made Pay-Per-Views a monthly thing, not WWE. You might credit Vince McMahon with making pay-per-view what it is today (although that's a big stretch) but you can hardly credit him SOLELY with it being the main revenue for a wrestling company. There's a reason a lot of what WCW did WWE copied, and vice versa -- Eric Bischoff created the competition to make it work. Eric Bischoff created the heel figurehead persona (...Vince did it better, but I digress...) and he was open to a lot of new influences and styles. And for god's sake he actually showed a lot of good wrestling on WCW. Which anyone can counter with the fact that he made Goldberg immensely popular off of a really ridiculous non-wrestling gimmick. Ridiculous or not, though, that was innovative.
I'm not discounting anyone's lists because they were all excellent choices, but some of the comments here that say Eric Bischoff wasn't innovative make me laugh. He was part of the trio that changed the whole landscape of wrestling. He had a lot of great ideas, and it's sad to see how easily people forget -- or just how much people don't know.
Posted By: luna (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 08:35 PM
what did vince ever really create? Hulkamania was created by the AWA and the Attitude Era was created in ECW. He was definately the best marketer or wrestling, but being an innovator doesn't seem to fit. His two biggest money making eras were rip-offs of other people's ideas.
Posted By: guest (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 09:45 PM
Where is Sugar Shane Helms? the sensation of innovation...
Posted By: Scott Hudson (Guest) on July 21, 2010 at 11:54 PM
The fact that Hulk Hogan appears on none of these lists speaks to your idiocy.
The only thing Hogan ever invented was bad wrestling.
Posted By: Angelus (Guest) on July 28, 2010 at 02:07 PM
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