Ask 411 Wrestling 01.12.11: Pushing Jailbirds, Deciphering Initials & The Best Match Of All Time

This is Ask 411 Wrestling, I am Mathew Sforcina, and please donate to help the relief effort for the Queensland floods if you can.

Not very funny I know, but it’s important. Just like any natural disaster, but this is the most current one.

I’ll be on Tom Tom Club this week, I hope. I’m getting back into my usual life groove, not that you care. Well, on some level you do in that if you’re reading this you may well have a preference as to this column, in that you may well like or dislike me and my work on it. Thus, my ‘real’ life is important, in that it effects what happens in here.

…

Geez, I do talk a lot of bollocks at times, don’t I?

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Backtalking

My Top 10: It’s my list, my opinion. My opinion cannot be wrong since it’s not a fact, it’s merely my opinion. So there’s no point debating it, since it’s not a factual matter.

One Man, Two Partners: I did say that there were examples I couldn’t think of, and lo and behold, I was right. To whit: Claudio Castagnoli (CHIKARA with Ares, ROH with Hero), Tyson Tomko (TNA with AJ, NJPW with Giant Bernard)

Faces Getting Shaved: Chavo, yeah, OK, that one I’ll cop to. I tend to treat him as a tweener at that point, but he was technically a face so we’ll allow that. APinOz also gives me a couple:

In relation to the heading, I’m sure there are a heap of Mexican technicos who have lost hair matches. Bur in the USA, I can think of two prominent ones:

Jerry Lawler lost a hair match against Austin Idol in Memphis in 1987 in a cage match, when Tommy Rich hid under the ring and helped Idol piledrive Lawler on a chair. Although I think Lawler only got a crew cut. (By the way, in case you’re wondering how someone can hide under the ring and interfere in a cage match, the cage they used was more like a Hell In A Cell-style cage, which went down to the floor and left room around the ring apron – could this be the first example of HIAC?)

Jimmy Valiant lost a hair match against one of Paul Jones’ Army (it may even have been Jones himself but I think it was Pez Whatley) during the Great American Bash tour of 1987.

Wrestling being exposed: There’s a few different times and places out there given, the Steroid Trial, the McMahons evidence to the government, 20/20… 20/20 I’ll give you, but I think the point I gave is fairly unique in that it was the first time Vince pretty much came out and admitted it was a show on the air. 20/20 and the like happened outside WWF’s control, that video was the first time they broke it themselves, during the broadcast. But it’s debatable, and there really is no right answer, people find/work it out different ways.

Wade Barrett: Yes, it turns out I’m wrong. Still, it’s not like I was declaring myself the smartest person on the planet or anything. The only time I’ve ever really felt like that was when I called TNA having a match revolve around a cello.

Your Turn, Smart Guy…

Note Guest#whatever: DiBiase doesn’t work for the one that was Gorilla since Ted never held an Australian title.

Who am I? I debuted on a PPV officially (although a couple of matches took place before the PPV). I’m not on TV right now, although I’ll be back soon. A former WWF Hardcore Champion, despite being mainly known as a singles wrestler, my total WWF tag title reigns outnumber my WWF singles reigns. I’ve had multiple managers in my career, although only 1 is remembered by many (with a second being the answer to a trivia question about my beginning). I took part in a Vince McMahon Kiss My Ass Club segment, and at one point I got screwed at a Survivor Series. Who Am I?

Cole Slaw has it right (Foley doesn’t work with the Managers bit, really…)

You sir, are the Undertaker.

Who am I? I debuted on a PPV officially (although a couple of matches took place before the PPV). [SURVIVOR SERIES 1990.] I’m not on TV right now [BURIED BY KANE], although I’ll be back soon [POSSIBLY ROYAL RUMBLE OR WM]. A former WWF Hardcore Champion [1 TIME], despite being mainly known as a singles wrestler, my total WWF tag title reigns [7 times – with Steve Austin (1), The Big Show (3), The Rock (1) and Kane (1)] outnumber my WWF singles reigns [WWF/E Championship (4 times) AND WWF Hardcore Championship (1 time)]. I’ve had multiple managers in my career [General Skandor Akbar, Paul Bearer, Paul E. Dangerously, Theodore Long, Brother Love, Dutch Mantell, Downtown Bruno], although only 1 is remembered by many [PAUL BEARER](with a second being the answer to a trivia question about my beginning). I took part in a Vince McMahon Kiss My Ass Club segment [FORCED JIM ROSS TO JOIN], and at one point I got screwed at a Survivor Series [PINNED ERIC ANGLE INSTEAD OF KURT]. Who Am I?

Who am I? I once almost lost an eye from a tiger backstage at an event.

I could probably just end it there, couldn’t I?

But no, I’m also employed by a major wrestling company right now, and I once cheated in a lottery. A triple crown champion, I’ve never held the same tag titles more than once with any one partner. Who am I?

Questions, Questions, Who’s Got The Questions?

Ossie gets to start off both sections this week.

Hey man, long time reader but been at least 3 Ask411 Guys since I actually asked a question. Good to see us Aussies representing.

I’m old enough to have grown up with the old school, and I still think that Savage-Steamboat at WM3 is the greatest match ever. I’m a little surprised, then, that I’ve never seen anyone in the industry talk about it (beyond general acknowledgement that yes, it’s a classic). In the age of “auto”biographies, shoot interviews & the end of kayfabe, nobody on the inside, let alone the 2 wrestlers, seem to have talked about this match in any detail: the build up, the planning, how they felt, when they knew who would win etc. These days we have The Rock in his book telling us about WM15 “We just clicked together…..did our special handshake…..afterward Steve walked in and hugged me to thank me for the match…..I knew he was having problems with Debra so I was glad to do this for him…..”. Partially I understand that getting anything out of Savage is hard, and apart from that one match, Steamboat is probably not a top-line interest for the IWC. But I’m still kinda surprised. Have you ever seen anyone make any non-kayfabe comments about this match?

It’s one of the greatest matches of all time. But it’s not treated as such beyond saying it’s a classic when it comes up. There’s reasons for that. You mention Savage being somewhat odd, and it’s true, having one half of the match being ostracised from the business doesn’t help. But another, big part of it, is that Steamboat, supposedly, HATES that match. Or at the very least, he hates hearing about how good it is. So he doesn’t discuss it often, due to him either not liking Savage, or the bad blood with the aftermath, or a preference for his matches with Flair, or whatever.

So when the two men who wrestled in the match don’t talk much or about it, and the offsiders are either dead or somewhat forgotten, and the match itself got some heat at the time for overshadowing the main event, you end up with something not brought up a lot.

But it’s a match that, at the very least, helped to inspire Chris Jericho to become a wrestler. And Rob Van Dam was in attendance, so he was almost certainly touched by it.

But yeah, it’s not discussed much due to politics and the people involved not talking much.

Steve is up next.

Hello again boss!

Quick question for Ask 411,

As I have been reading the articles about Paul Orndorff today, it got me thinking about a question I have never heard an answer to: Why did he wrestle for years with tights that said “O P” on them? If they were his initials of his name, wouldn’t they be P.O.? Or does it mean something else?

Thanks as always,

If you didn’t hear, Paul’s announced, in passing, that he’s been diagnosed with cancer. Here’s hoping it’s not true, and that he makes a full recovery.

Anyway, you can see here…

His tights do say O.P… Why?

Orndorff has been asked this at least once, and he was evasive, ala CM Punk and his initials. He said he wouldn’t answer, it was more fun not to. Maybe he would say it eventually, but so far he hasn’t. It could well be his initials, just done as Orndoff, P. But the old wrestlers’ tale is that it stands for Out Patient.

Because he’s insane, see.

But yeah, it’s probably just his initials in reverse.

ukgreenbay asks about something old on the site.

I read an article a few years ago on 411 about the “physics” of wrestling. It was a really funny article talking about wrestlers getting hurt when they miss a move but not when they hit, when a wrestler is thrown into the ropes he is nearly helples but to run back across the ring, etc. Basically a bunch of funny rules about a ring that dont apply anywhere else. Any idea if this is still around somewhere. Thanks either way.

This could be one of two things.

You’re possibly referring to The Finish Line, a weekly series by the missed Matt Nute which looked at the physics of wrestling moves, specifically finishers. This is the archive, and it’s worth a look if you haven’t read them before.

But I believe you are referring to the “The Unofficial Glossary of Professional Wrestling”, which was a long running series in John Meehan’s column, where each week readers would suggest various rules and laws that Wrestling worked under. They were spread out, but then Meehan conveniently compiled them into one handy double shot column for your reading pleasure. Although there were then more to follow, I believe. I know I submitted a few…

Scotty231 asks if we might have gotten Savage V T…

Hey Mathew, Great job every week. i have to read ask 411wrestling every wednesday
Here is my question, i was watching wrestling challenge from june 28th 1987 and the macho man was competing in the first match after he got in the ring but before the match started mel phillips introduced Mr t mentioning him competing at mania’s 1 and 2. Mr t shook the jobbers hand but macho man turned his back on Mr.T refusing to shake his hand. Gorilla and bobby mentioned how Randy appeared to be ratteled by Mr.T showing up as he wrestled the match with his sunglasses on the whole match. My Question is was this planting the seeds for a possible wrestlemania 4 match between the two? maybe this was the original plan before deciding to turn savage face?

Keep up the good work sir, thanks

To the tape!

No, this was not in the cards. At the time, in 1987, Mr. T was short on work. The A-Team had just ended, and he had no immediate job. So he came in and became the WWF’s ‘Enforcer’, a pseudo official position, where T would come out and get in the face of any of the bad guys business. He occasionally got into it with Honky Tonk, Danny Davis, and other heels. As an enforcer and/or ref, Mr. T worked with the WWF from the beginning of June till the end of August. He never worked a match, just refereed, Enforced and, on occasion, was handcuffed to Bobby Heenan for a match. WWF may have had some vague notion of building to a Mr T V someone match, but it was nothing serious.

Further proof MMA is ripping off Wrestling.

Adrian calls us from the Emerald Isle.

Hey Mathew, can you tell me why the British Bulldog was included in the 6 pack challenge at the end of 99 ? wasn’t he just back from WCW at the time ? were they just short of upper card talent with Austin and Taker out ? cheers from Ireland

It’s a mixture of things. Yes, he had just come back, so they wanted to prove a point, that if guys jumped to the WWF, they’d be treated better. Plus Bulldog was something resembling a name, and they were hoping to recapture what he once had. That, and the sudden loss of Taker and Austin’s inability to enter the match, led to him being put in. Who else? Jericho was debuting on the show, X-Pac wouldn’t make sense, everyone else was busy or not suitable. So they subbed Bulldog in, and hoped to run with it. Didn’t work, but they gave it a shot.

Jeff asks if WCW kept their word.

I have been dubbing my old WCW VHS to DVD recently, and came across Slamboree 96 and Battlebowl. DDP won this event in his comeback from the “Living on the streets” storyline. My question is this.. The stipulation there was that DDP would get a World Title Shot. The nWo came in shortly afterward and Hogan took over. Was DDP ever granted his title match there? And if so, when did it happen?

Thanks for your time,

Ah yes, the Bingo storyline. DDP went through a bad period, having lost a match to the Booty Man (Ed Leslie gimmick #4236365263635), he was forced out of Wrestling, having already lost the money he stole from Kimberly won on bingo earlier on in a TV title match to Johnny B Badd, who gave it back to Kimberly.

But then a mysterious benefactor came along and helped him back on the good path, and he ended up winning the Slamboree Battlebowl, becoming Lord Of the Ring and winning the World Title shot at the Great American Bash. However, he didn’t get this match, but it WAS explained.

The following night on Nitro, after beating Brad Armstrong, as he began to talk about his title shot, Mean Gene, who was interviewing him, announced that WCW officials had reviewed how DDP won the Battlebowl battle royale. See, at about the 1:30 mark, Page went up and over and touched the floor, but the ref, Nick Patrick, didn’t see it. Page would come back and then eliminate a bunch of people by pinfall and toss, and end up winning.

The following night, it was ruled that although his win would stand, he would not get the World Title shot at GAB, Luger would instead. Page wouldn’t get a match against the world champ until March 1998.

Bob wants to talk time limits.

Hi. Great column.

When was the last time a match ended in a time limit draw in the WWE? Why was this stopped? Doesn’t it make more sense to keep two workers strong and equal to have a time limit expire instead of a DQ or run in all the time?

*fires up History of WWE…*

There was actually one last year… Technically. 15th of October, 2010. Kaval V Big Show, 5 minute time limit draw. Technically.

There’s now often time limit draws in Beat The Clock challenges and such. But a proper time limit draw (and not an iron man match that ends in a draw, or a “You can’t beat me in 3 minutes” challenge…) in 2004, at some house shows, Johnny Nitro, as Raw GM flunky, would change matches to 2 out of 3 falls with short time limits instead of 1 fall 60 minute matches, thus screwing Shelton Benjamin out of winning Randy Orton’s IC title.

And that’s still iffy.

As for why not do it, it requires a lot of time to set up the idea that there are time limits. If you mention a time limit now, people will automatically assume it’ll be a draw. Why else would you mention it?

So you need to set it up for a few months of mentioning it without using it before you can begin to use it and not have it be totally obvious. And that’s a lot of work. But yes, I agree, a time limit draw can work well, ROH uses it well on occasion. But WWE just don’t think like that anymore.

mnmratedr is annoyed!

I always wanted to know this about the figure four. Almost every person I have ever seen use the move doesn’t use it properly, they always apply the pressure to the leg that they haven’t been working. When you are put in the figure four the leg that gets hurt is the leg that is straight. Your opponent is driving your bent leg into the knee of the straight leg and putting tremendous amounts of pressure on it. It makes no sense why every wrestler will work a leg and why they apply the figure four the previously work leg is the bent one where no damage is being done at all.

Thanks, I appreciate your work and your column is always a great read.

Yeah, it’s one of those things that most people get wrong. Probably because Ric Flair gets it wrong.

However, there is a fall back justification, that the Figure Four affects 8 pressure points, that it’s a bad move regardless of which leg you put it on. Yes, they should be putting it on the straight leg. But the bent one isn’t beer and skittles.

That’s the justification of it at least, that there’s pressure points all over the lower legs (the toes, the feet, the ankles, the shins, the hips, the knees, the groin, the thighs). But yes, you are right, most guys do it wrong.

My Damm Opinion

Ossie is back.

Second, under this definition what would you consider as the greatest match ever? Hart-Austin at WM13 was significant for launching Austin & everything he subsequently did, but was it a classic? Rock-Austins: were they technically brilliant? Hogan-Andre was probably the “biggest” match ever in terms of build up & interest, but it wasn’t that good a match. Which match did you watch and just know at the time that it was an outright best-ever in & of itself, regardless of build-up, historical significance, etc etc?

Cheers

So, ignoring all the extra stuff, what match was just the pure best match ever? That’s a hard question, since all that extra stuff is, to me, what wrestling’s all about. The storylines, the build up, that’s what I care about with wrestling.

But in terms of just pure wrestling skill, being the best match ever… The traditional answer for a hardcore IWC guy is to go with a Misawa/Kawada match. In terms of pure workrate, their work is pretty hard to argue against. And if not them, then Flair/Steamboat.

However, in what is probably a biased answer, and, worse, risking flaming on the basis that one of the guys in it is a murderer… Angle V Benoit, Royal Rumble 2003, in my book, is one of the best pure matches of all time.

But again, I saw this match live, so I’m biased one way, and others will want it DQed on the basis of Benoit being a despicable human being. So, if you ignore that match… Misawa & Kobashi V Kawada & Taue. Some things are cliché because they’re true.

But by all means, I’m eager to hear what the commentators have to say…

Hank has a simple question.

I know there’s no chance in hell that Chris Benoit will ever be in the hall of Fame, but would Nancy ever be considered? What she accomplished as woman gives here the credentials.

Yes, from a purely objective standpoint, if Koko gets in, Woman does warrant entry. And she is much more likely to get in than Chris. But the problem is that inducting her brings up the whole thing, and right now WWE is in “Ignore whenever possible” mode. So she won’t get in for at least several years, until such time as they get desperate for inductees and they can mention her name without people immediately jumping to Benoit.

So you’re looking at 10 years or so.

Nick has 3 questions to end us off this week.

What’s the Sforcina? I’ve got a couple of questions, I’m hoping you can help me with.

Thanks!!!

I seem to recall back in 1987 that a big deal was made of the return of Ken Patera. I remember vignettes and a big deal with the Heenan family. I’m just wondering what you think, made McMahon think, that a reformed jailbird (granted it was a fairly silly crime) was worthy of such a babyface push in the conservative, family-friendly, cartoon 1980’s WWF?

What did Vince see in him?

A great body.

That is, he came out looking great, and was pretty good prior to his arrest. But pushing him as a criminal, or trying to play him as a heel with that background wouldn’t work in that environment, people would claim they were glamorising it. So they had to turn it, make him someone trying to correct a mistake. It’s ironic, you can do a prisoner gimmick, just as long as the guy isn’t an actual criminal.

But basically, he looked fantastic and seemed to still have it, so they pushed him. It wasn’t until he injured his arm and lost it all that they stopped pushing him.

Do you have any information on the Frank Tunney Sr. Memorial Cup Tag Team Tornament the WWF began in 1987? Was this just a shot at Jim Crocket? Did they run another tournament in Toronto in 1988? Who were the teams involved and who won?

Yes, it was a classic shot at their competitors, a parody of the Jim Crockett Sr. Tag Tournaments. Frank Tunney Sr had claimed to introduce Tag Team Wrestling to North America in 1942, when he had a tag match on a card he produced (Whipper Billy Watson & Earl McCready vs. John Katan & Al “Bunny” Dunlop). WWF ran with that and held the tournament in his honor as if he had indeed done that. That was not the first one, but whatever.

The tournament (there was only one) was held on March 15th, 1987. 8 teams took part (well, 9, technically…), and the results (and their broadcast dates) were:

Quarter-Finals: Prime Time Wrestling – 3/23/87: B. Brian Blair & Jim Brunzell defeated Kamala & Sika (w/ Kimchee) at 7:32 when Brunzell pinned Sika following a dropkick
Quarter-Finals: Rick Martel & Tom Zenk defeated Jerry Allen & Danny Spivey at 10:31 when Zenk pinned Allen with a crossbody
Quarter-Finals: Prime Time Wrestling – 3/30/87: Demolition (w/ Johnny V) defeated Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid via disqualification at 4:50 when Smith used a steel chair as a weapon after Johnny V tripped Smith from the apron and Dynamite threw the chair in the ring
Quarter-Finals: Prime Time Wrestling – 3/23/87: Paul Orndorff & King Kong Bundy defeated Don Muraco & Bob Orton Jr. (w/ Mr. Fuji) at 6:20 when Orndorff pinned Orton after Muraco accidentally hit his partner with Fuji’s cane
Semi Finals: Prime Time Wrestling – 3/23/87: Demolition (w/ Johnny V) defeated Rick Martel & Tom Zenk via count-out at 9:21 after Ax shoved Zenk into the ring-post
Semi Finals: B. Brian Blair & Jim Brunzell defeated Paul Orndorff & King Kong Bundy at 4:22 when Blair pinned Orndorff with a reverse roll up after the Killer Bees used their masks to switch places in the ring
Finals: Prime Time Wrestling – 4/13/87: B. Brian Blair & Jim Brunzell defeated Demolition (w/ Johnny V) at 6:16 when Blair pinned Ax with a sunset flip off the top after the Killer Bees put on their masks to switch places in the ring; due to pre-match stipulations, the Killer Bees earned an immediate tag team title shot
WWF Tag Team Champions Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart (w/ Jimmy Hart & Danny Davis) defeated B. Brian Blair & Jim Brunzell when Bret pinned Blair after Danny Davis interfered and reversed Blair’s small package attempt behind the referee’s back; after the bout, the Bees attacked Davis and threw him out of the ring.

So there you have it.

I grew up on Crockett’s NWA and I’ve always thought that blood had an important part to play in wrestling. Likewise, I feel embarrassed liking bloody matches when I know the guys are gigging themselves. Now I know traditionalists will piss on me, but can you explain why it would be so terrible for wrestling (non-WWE PG) to use fake blood? From your experience, is it workable/unworkable?

Right, so we’re on the same page in that WWE can’t use blood right now, but what about everyone else. Well, the thing is, fake blood looks, well… Fake.

Sure, on a movie set or TV show, you can have make up and special effects guys and, more importantly, time and chances to edit and make it look great, wrestling is a live event, and to make blood look real, practically, live, is pretty much impossible. With the exception of internal bleeding (that’s the old condom full of blood) and maybe a bloody mouth (blood capsules), any way to make your forehead bleed without actually cutting yourself will either look fake or not work live, it’ll go off at the wrong time or need too much attention or something.

To bleed from skin, you have to cut yourself in wrestling. There’s sadly no other way.

And on that downer note, I again ask you: Ignoring build up, aftermath, importance, on pure in ring work, what is the best match of all time? Let’s get some debate happening! Until next week, stay positive. And dry.