Ask 411 Wrestling 08.03.11: McMemphis, Dead Pinfalls, Illogic, More!

Hey there, this is Ask 411 Wrestling. I am Mathew Sforcina, and as the writer of Ask 411 Wrestling, it follows logically that I wrote this. And what do you know, I did!

Go Logic!

Anyway, not much else to put here, on the basis that I’m still holding judgement on the big angle on Raw until I see what happens at Summerslam. Basically if Punk walks out with the belt, I’m happy. If Del Rio walks out with the belt, I’ll be confused yet interested. Cena walks out with it… Depends on how.

Although I’d like to know what the Anonymous Raw GM has to say about HHH taking over. He and/or she must be pissed…

And speaking of predictions, I’m claiming Partial Credit for Zack Ryder’s new role on SD. Yes, I said interview segment. But the basic idea, giving him a way to just talk? That’s what’s happened…

You should listen every week to the Tom Tom Club and also listen every day to 411mania’s podcast!

And you know, eventually I will leave you all, and quit this column. And while the Chandlers will leave, while the mid-column funny/cool video will vanish, and indeed the Tara Worship will be gone, I know, truly, that this banner will remain.

It’s just that awesome.

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Backtalking

The Ultimate Warrior?: I’m fairly certain you know this, but that was Zack Ryder there as the Ultimate Broski.

Timing of Questions: Some questions get sped ahead due to timing. Like Nelson’s, since in 3 months, I wouldn’t remember the context and, worse, it’d be meaningless.

Your Turn, Smart Guy…

Who would I be? I was in a video in last week’s Ask 411 Wrestling. I competed to become the first man to hold a certain title, and despite not dropping a fall, I failed to win that match. Hell, I’ve never held that title in my life, despite it being very important to me at times. While I’m mostly known by my ‘real’ name, I have at least 2 other personas. I’ve appeared for CHIKARA, and WCW. And one of my managers is related to a currently changed man. Who the heck am I?

R-Goof, like many, got this one.

You’re Chrisopther Daniels

You competed in the 4 Way Iron Man match for the ROH Title and ended the match without being pinned and one fall to your name, one less than the actual winner Low Ki. You’ve also tried to win that belt many other other times from champions; Samoa Joe, CM Punk, Bryan Danielson, Roderick Strong and Eddie Edwards.

You Have also allegedly been known as Curry Man and Suicide

You wrestled Hallowicked and Eddie Kingston at CHIKARA’s 2010 King of Trios event, and wrestled in WCW towards the end of its life.

Your old manager Allison Danger is the sister of Steve Corino.

Indeed. Anyway, we don’t have a Who Am I this week, instead, I shall link you to this rather cool Sporcle quiz. Remember Sporcle?

Questions, Questions, Who’s Got The Questions?

John starts us off with a nice easy one.

Hey Matthew,

Love the column, and I’ve got a single question.

1. How is it decided whether Wrestlemania will be in March or April? I’ve tried looking for a pattern and can’t seem to find one.

Thanks a lot.

It’s a matter of when the venue they’ve chosen is available. WWE needs time to set up the Wrestlemania Venue, and some packdown time as well, so they need to have several days free for this to occur. So once they’ve decided that the venue of Wrestlemania next year is New Orleans or Calgary or Rio de Janeiro or whatever, they’d then sit down with the stadium in question and work out when they have a week free, and go with that. There’s no “It’s in March but every second year after a leap year it’s in April unless it’s also a year with a Soccer World Cup in which the US is knocked out prior to the final 16” equation, it’s down to simple venue availability.

Squid Vicious (I still love that name) has a couple of questions.

I have a question. Can you explain the whole “H-Pac 2.0” thing for me? I have no idea what it means.

Apparently this is some sort of 411 Commentators Meme, like Paul Roma or demanding Dunn review Best of Raw 2010 or trying to get racists comments past the editors and such. Given that I am far too busy being awesome being lazy to bother trawling the 411 comments section, I invite the 411 comment people to tell me what it means. I assume it’s some sort of insult towards someone, possibly Sin Cara.

Also, since you like tracking things down, which cities have seen the most title changes? Provided, of course, you have not already done this in the past.

Thanks as always,

…

People, for future reference, you need to be SPECIFIC when you ask questions. You have to tell me which companies you want included in this sort of question, and/or titles. Otherwise you get this sort of answer:

I assume you mean WWE only. And I also assume you mean the WWE Title only. In any case, the answer is for pretty much every title is New York City. Maybe not the newer ones, but the WWE title for sure, it’s NYC.

Victor goes into McMahon.

Hi Matthew,

Longtime reader, occasional asker. I enjoy the column a lot, obviously.

Anyway, I had a question about Vince McMahon’s journey to Memphis in 1993. Back then, Vince was just a play-by-play guy (and a horrible one, at that – frequently calling moves “what a manuever that was!” rather than identifying it by name) and was not acknowledged as the owner of the WWE. But in the USWA, he was not only referred to as the owner, but portrayed a heel character that probably served as the template for “Mr. McMahon” several years later. Why did the WWE agree to do this? Was it simply to exchange talent (didn’t seem like there was much to exchange – only Lawler and Jarrett made the jump – although Brian Christopher and PG-13 followed a few years later)? Or was Vince giving his heel persona a test run for if and when he decided to step into the ring?

Ah, McMemphis. I strongly urge anyone who hasn’t watched the McMemphis angle to start here and work your way through. It is a very interesting run of videos, and it is, after all, MR. McMahon Beta 0.8. Hell, this whole account’s made of gold.

Anyway, I may or may not have covered this before, but let’s recap.

The USWA was, in many ways, the last great territory. The origins of it are complicated (which is why the question I’m going to force myself to do next week has been sitting there for months), but basically the company, led by Lawler, was the last territory standing after McMahon’s steamroller and the WCW formation. But in 1992, the territory was in it’s last days. So Lawler signed onto the WWF. But with his contract, which brought him in mostly as a commentator but with some wrestling as well, he got an informal deal with WWF, like WWF did with ECW later on. The two would share talent, if anyone really good rose up in USWA (like Jarrett… OK that’s an argument for another time, just go with me here) they’d go to WWF, while WWF guys got to take some dates in USWA, either while passing through for some extra cash or perhaps to be sent down for seasoning.

Now, at the point that Vince turned up, in the WWF, Lawler had begun to feud with Bret Hart. And so they continued the angle in USWA. But there, Lawler was the facest of faces. And thus, all the WWF guys would be heels. And, to try and ensure this, they needed a leader, someone to be the guy who ensured the fans hated the WWF guys. And Vince had always wanted to be a wrestler, and a heel. So why not use this opportunity to get to live out his dreams?

It was a test run in retrospect, but at the time, he was just getting the chance to work heel, since he’d never get to do that on WWF TV.

Oh, and to correct you: He was never actually called the owner in Memphis. It was implied, sure, but if you look at the videos, he’s just ‘The Voice of the WWF’. Not the owner. Which leads into…

Also, I know various WWE stars dropped hints over the years that Vince was the owner (Diesel post-title, for instance, and DX) before Vince finally formally acknowledged it. What was the earliest instance you can think of where someone mentioned, on WWE TV or PPV, that Vince was more than just a bad announcer who loved going “1-2-3! He got him!! He got him!! Oh wait, no he didn’t.”

Thanks!

See now I know this has come up before. And I always seem to get it wrong. But here goes.

Technically the correct answer is back in the early 90’s, on WWF recap shows, they would occasionally do little videos of all the wonderful charity work they’d done, isn’t the WWF just a wonderful bunch of people?

And so on.

Anyway, during at least one of these, Vince was captioned as being ‘Vince McMahon, WWF C.E.O’. So technically that was when.

After that, Diesel’s tweener run had it hinted at, it was teased occasionally. But the first time someone flat out came out and said “Vince McMahon’s the Boss” was Heel JR.

But I’m probably wrong. See below.

Greg is… Well, see for yourself.

As a fan of both Bret Hart and Ric Flair i was wondering what was each best non ppv burate biggest attendence and biggest tv rating thanks.

…

Non PPV burate? The hell?

Well, attendance, Ric Flair wins with 190,000 at the World Peace Festival in Pyongyang, North Korea. If you don’t want to include shows were the attendance was at gunpoint, then Bret Hart wins with WM3’s 93,173. The next largest, Summerslam 1992, had both.

Biggest TV rating…

I still love this chart.

Bret was with WWF until the Nov 10, 1997 Raw, and was WCW December 15, 1997. So, looking it over, they are tied, as both men’s highest ratings were on the same show.

Jay asks about the Warrior.

Hi

Great article as always…I have a question regarding the lunatic that is the Ultimate Warrior.
Prior to him re-appearing at Wrestlemania 12, does my memory serve me correctly that in mid to late 95 there was a promo on WWF tv advertising his return. However he didnt actally return for a good half a year after the promo? Was he meant to debut earlier than WM 12?

Thanks

The earliest promo I have for Warrior was February 19, 1996, which is, I assume, this one.

There was no mention of him in 1995, so that must be it. Unless you meant a spoken one, like this one.

If only he’d been that coherent back in the day, he might well have been around a lot longer…

Guess what goes here?

Josh asks about a long misunderstood character.

Hey great work man. Back on 3/16/11 you answered a question about the character Se7en and showed his debut footage. I wanna ask some questions about that. Seven seemed to be a rip off of The Undertaker. The hat, the jacket, the supernatural powers. So my question is, was Dustin Rhodes always meant to play this character? I mean, wouldn’t it be obvious to wrestling fans that that’s just Dustin Rhodes in make up? You could say the same thing about Goldust, but Goldust never floated to the ring or had Supernatural powers. He was just a freak/weird-o that liked movies. Wouldn’t it have made more sense to an unknown in that role?

Unless….

They did have someone else in mind for the character, but when WCW decided to scrap the character they used Dustin to do what he did. By the way does anyone else think it’s funny that he’s still Goldust in the WWE now after watching that video?

So….

What happened to Dustin Rhodes in WCW after this? Being life long WWE fan I never watched Nitro. OObviouslydidn’t do too much. Did they push him at all?

Thanks!

Now then, yes, this was always the plan coming in with Dustin, was for Dustin to play the Seven character, hell he came up with it, supposedly. But then Turner Standards and Practices got their panties in a twist, saying he could be construed as a Child Molester, so he and Russo (the angle began BEFORE Russo came on but finished after he turned up) went with the worked shoot idea to try and salvage something from it.

And after this, Dustin Rhodes was a generic southern babyface, fighting the Powers That Be, and teaming with his Dad against the Flairs (after a few months of mentioning Dusty in every promo) near the very end of WCW. He wasn’t much, but then so little in WCW was anything at that point anyway. He got a moderate push, but nothing major.

Elvis has a simple enough question.

Matthew,

We all know that the title can only change hands by pinfall or submission. How many times has the WWE Championship changed hands by pinfall and how many times has it changed hands by submission?

I’m mostly interested in the WWE Championship, but if you’re feeling ambitious, feel free to do other titles as well.

Thanks,

Nah, I’m not ambitious. Just a slave to what’s asked. Note that in elimination matches Chamber or otherwise, only the last, winning fall is counted. Note that Rey and Cena’s last two title wins are also not counted, since I don’t know if they’ll end up counting or not.

Awarded (Fictitious Tournament): 1
Awarded (Injury): 1
Belt Retrieval In Ladder/TLC Match: 2
Iron Man Victory (0-0, Pinfall in Sudden Death Overtime): 1
Iron Man Victory (5-4, Submission): 1
Iron Man Victory (6-5, DQ after the 60 Minute Time Limit): 1
Iron Man Victory (6-5, Submission): 1
Montreal Screwjob: 1
Not Bleeding: 1
Not Saying I Quit: 2
Pinfall: 77
Putting Opponent Through Table: 1
Royal Rumble Victory: 1
Standing Up: 1
Submission: 6
Tossing Over The Top Rope: 1
Touching All 4 Corners: 1
Tournament Final (Screwjob): 1
Tournament Final (Pinfall): 1
Towel Tossing: 2

So there you go.

It’s at this point my internet died, leaving me with half a research question done. So we’ll leave that for next week and do some stuff I don’t have to research, i.e. opinion and one quicky fact one!

neverAcquiesce asked about Vince again.

Following up on Bret Hart’s decision to return to the WWF, as mentioned before they kept showing Vince’s reaction at ringside. They’d always kinda played around in a joking manner about Vince being the legit boss without ever saying as much, but this clearly painted him as someone with a vested interest. I don’t quite remember my thirteen-year-old self’s reaction, but were the viewers supposed to view Vince as a worried announcer or as Bret’s distraught boss? In addition, and please, don’t waste too much time looking this up, do you happen to know the first time someone referred to Vince as the owner, however subtly? I would assume it had to be Ventura back in the 80s before Lawler’s regular mid-90s shots. Also, the first time I can recall it being flat out stated, well before the Montreal Screwjob, was during Jim Ross’ failed heel turn in late ’96. Is this correct? Thanks for your time, and keep up the great work.

We answered that second bit earlier on. Vince was supposed to be a concerned party, but not quite the boss, at least, not to the 13 year olds. It was a subtle nod to the ‘smart’ fans, while to everyone else Vince, as the Voice of the WWF, had a right to be a concerned party, especially one who was a big a Bret fan as anyone could be.

My Damn Opinion

Elijah asks about selling.

Hey Matt got a question for you about pinfalls.

Alright as we all know pinfalls used during the match can create drama and are, by and far, used to end a match. Whether they be clean or dirty, assisted or not, nearly 90% of matches are ended via pin. Now my question is this: when a wrestler A eats a finisher by wrestler B, do you think that wrestler A ought to act totally out cold, knocked out beyond all belief and makes no motion whatsover even while being pinned? Women wrestlers over the years are known to do this and I know Stacy Kiebler did it when she was facing Lita. Or do you think it adds just a little bit of drama to a match when wrestler A, after being hit by wrestler B’s finisher, makes a slow kicking motion with one of his/her legs trying to kick out but just doesn’t have enough to do so? I recall Hacksaw Jim Duggan taking a chokeslam from The Giant (back in WCW) and being pinned for the loss while kicking his leg a bit.

Anyway, is there an unknown art to making a pinfall appear more than it actually is or to be able to have it add drama to the match, like submissions?

Let’s go from the top.

I understand the logic behind that idea, I’ve seen it floated about, but the problem is Wrestling is all about the show, and about telling a story to the people at home and the people all the way back in the very top row. So while being knocked out cold is fine for the at home crowd, it doesn’t come across at all well like selling as if you’ve just been shot does to the guy in the very back row.

I do like it when someone tries to kick out but can’t, and/or kicks out but too late, that sort of stuff I do like, so we’re on even ground now.

As for stuff to making pinfalls more dramatic, it’s all about timing, taking your time to crawl over for the cover, the ref’s cadence being strong and slightly slow, kicking out at 2.99999 as opposed to just 2.99. Little things, but taken all together, they all add up. It’s perhaps not as involved or complicated as a submission, but sure, there are lots of little things you gotta do.

Steven dares me to dip into my bag of least favourite things.

Hi Matthew,

Great column yadda yadda…every week…so on and so on…

Definately an opinion question, in terms of long term rivalries between wrestlers (keyfabe) who would you point too as the most illogical? For example, HH and HBK have always been so closely related that its been logical (I.E. They’ve always acknowledged when one has turned heel or theres a valid reason for them to fall out or disagree), but then Punk and Orton, due to a double turn, are now fighting over an assault made by evil heel Orton on plucky face Punk , yet now we are cheering Orton for doing it. So taking your wrestling hat off an applying a modicum of logic, which two wrestlers history and backstories intertwine in the most confusing way?

Kane and Undertaker.

See, that’s a joke, since some genius managed to explain that back in 05…

All right, most illogical…

See, the problem is, I somewhat pride myself on being able to think up loophole plugs. I enjoy the challenge of working out how to explain stuff. So finding something I can’t, that’s pretty damn hard. That said, I’m not going to take the easy route and just say ‘All of Russo in WCW’, or even go with a Russo booked angle. Instead, I’m going to go a little left field.

Jericho and Chyna.

It just jumped all over the place, with Jericho being all goofy and silly and then smashing Chyna’s hand. Then they were ‘Co-Champions’ and they somehow gained respect for each other and just… Ugh. I really did not like that period.

But by all means gentlemen and ladies of the comments section, who should I be saying here? Abyss and Sting? Edge and Christian? Matt Hardy, Kane, Lita and Edge?

Actually that last one’s a fairly strong choice…

Steve In Detroit has a bunch of things he wants my input on.

Hey Mathew,

Great column! Thanks for taking the time for it every week.

I have a few questions:

1) I noticed that last week on Smackdown, Big Show hit Justin Gabriel (sort of) over the head with a chair, and am wondering, do you think we will ever see a chair shot to the head again? What I mean is, a Taker to Maven style shot? I think if used very sparingly, it could be a very effective way of adding intensity to a feud or angle, because I also think since they stopped using them, seeing it would be a legit shocker.

Not unless someone develops a safer chair, or two wrestlers decide that an angle is more important than the rules, like HHH and Taker did at WM, which sort of derails my own answer here. But the thing is, for all the good it does do for an angle, it’s still a dangerous thing to be doing, and so far no-one in ANY sport of business has been able to relax safety laws unless it involves massive amounts of pollution and/or drugs. Sheer probability states eventually someone will let one fly out of anger or a missed shot or whatever, but you’ll never see a totally scripted chair shot to the head for many years, in my opinion.

2) Do you think they will ever focus on the tag belts again? Frankly, they should be important, if not at the level of the World titles. One idea I have is maybe down the line, Edge and Christian could reunite and place their focus on the tag belts, ideally thereby raising their importance.

See what I mean about old questions?

Anyway, I don’t want focus on the tag belts right now, since they are so butt ugly. That said… Tag team wrestling is a gimmick. It’s a highly efficient one, and one that every card should have some of, but it has no automatic place in the main event. No gimmick, apart from the main title, should automatically be in the main event. If you have a tag team that high up, awesome, but it’s not a necessity.

Will WWE ever push the division? Sure, if they get a tag team worth it. If Kings of Wrestling catch on fire, or if Beer Money and/or Motor City Machine Guns sign on or one of their randomly tossed together teams makes it, they’ll focus on them. But until then, no, they won’t.

3) Do you think WWE will ever reduce their PPVs to maybe 7 or 8 per year, again ideally to make everything seem less rushed with better payoffs etc? Why not the big 4, with one in February, early July, and early October?

To put it less silly, no. WWE makes far too much money to drop below 12 PPVs a year. You can argue about the price, but they will NEVER drop below 12. Never ever.

I should find the JP Prag thing on this and keep a copy of the link…

4) Why are they so adamant about never having Cena or Orton (or any top face, really) get pinned? Shouldn’t it be the other way around? I feel like people would like Cena more if he lost once in a while and actually was in precarious situations.

Thanks so much, and no worries if you can’t answer them all in the column.

Because right now, it’s Hogan era logic: People (kids and women) pay money to see Cena and Orton win. Other people (men and IWC) pay money more consistently in the hopes of seeing them lose. So in both cases, it makes the WWE more to keep them winning so as to keep the flighty ones in, and keep the solid ones antsy.

But then, given the recent events, that’s changed slightly…

Dan wants to get angry to finish off.

Hello Massive Q,

I have been reading this column since the days of Keith and Czonka. I enjoy your take on issues. I have been searching for an affordable alternative to the McMahon product since ECW closed it’s doors. With only one realistic alternative, I have been watching a lot of TNA. I live in Texas and the indy scene is deader than the nerves in Hogan’s back. I have gotten to the point where I stop watching promos. That art form seems dead as well. In TNA it seems to be three-quarters of the show. A year ago they seemed an inch away from being true competition for WWE. Kong and the Knockouts was always a highlight. The tag and X divisions were thriving. With Angle in control of the main event even that was good.

My question is, what happened? Yes, talented shifted. The core workers of the company are still there. The writing has become atrocious. Who do I blame for the company going all the way back to pre step one? (Even TNA in the ppv days was better than the current product)

Honestly? It comes down to Dixie, but not in the way you might think. The problem with TNA, Impact, whatever, the issue with the company is that there is no One Realistic Goal. If they just focused on being the alternative to WWE, being the wrestling for the 18-45 Males, or to be a hybrid Wrestling/MMA deal, or to just be profitable, if they had one goal and worked at it, it’d be in much better shape.

But the company has ADHD in the worst way. They’re always chasing that one more signee, that one deal, that one show, as if they are going to compete/beat WWE in one night. Even if they got John Cena tomorrow, they’d still be miles behind WWE, and will still be there for months, almost certainly years.

So while TNA has good patches, has periods when it’s pretty good, they then change their mind and go another way, trying to find the magic bullet when you cannot force a magic bullet nor can you bet everything on finding one. The company needs the one clear voice to lead them towards manageable goals, step by step.

Now, that should be Dixie. I haven’t really heard anyone say horrible things about her, beyond the expected stuff (She’s too nice, too easily led, over her head etc), but the problem with her is that she seems too idealistic. And that gets in her eyes, and she brings in people who claim they have the answer then lets them run unchecked.

No booker should be left unchecked, unless it is also their company, 100%. If you own the company, you will do everything you can not to see it go down the crapper. But if someone else owns it, then you have no real desire not to see if die, since it ain’t your money. You need someone to rein you in. TNA appears to lack that, or at least lacks someone doing that who knows what they are doing.

So you kinda have to blame Dixie. Or blame everyone taking advantage of her. Your choice. Although I’m sure the comments below say otherwise.

Until next week, sorry about the shortness, and goodnight!