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All The King’s Men 11.23.11: Week 3 – Bret Hart’s Legacy
ALL THE KING’s MEN!
The Concept
The concept of the column is simple. As the “King” of the 411 Roundtable, I will pick a topic for discussion. The staff, or “Knights” of the old roundtable will then have the opportunity to state of they are FOR or AGAINST the week’s topic, and then will have the chance to defend their position. Lets get to it…
Bret Hart is known as the best there is, the best there was and the best there ever will be. But as the 411 top 25 features have shown us, many people disagree with this statement. Bret Hart is overrated.
Ryan Byers – DISAGREE: I don’t mean to be vulgar, when I first read this statement, my gut reaction wasn’t “Disagree.” My gut reaction was “Bret Hart is overrated? That is some fucking bullshit.” I can say without a doubt in my mind that Bret Hart is one of the best in-ring performers in the history of professional wrestling, and I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that a lot of the people who are calling him overrated today in responding to columns on this website are people who became professional wrestling fans in 1998 or later and, as a result, didn’t get to see most of the things that truly made Hart a legend.
A quick rundown of the man’s major matches should dispel any rumors that he’s overrated. An overrated wrestler doesn’t have so many classic matches over so many different years with such a wide variety of opponents. He had a great match against the second version of Tiger Mask (Mitsuharu Misawa) in All Japan Pro Wrestling in 1990. He had his classic at Summerslam against Mr. Perfect in 1991. In 1992, he had an oft-overlooked but excellent Wrestlemania brawl with “Rowdy” Roddy Piper. In 1993, though none of the individual matches were epics, he put on a very gutsy performance with three quality bouts in the same night to win the first King of the Ring tournament held on pay per view. He produced two different ***** matches against his brother Owen in 1994, the first being at Wrestlemania X and the second being at Summerslam in a steel cage. 1995 saw him carry Kevin Nash to the single best match of Nash’s career, having a no disqualification match against the seven footer at the Survivor Series. In 1997, the Hitman’s last year with the WWF, he had an incredibly hot feud with “Stone Cold” Steve Austin, which deserves significantly more credit than it gets for launching Austin’s career. Though there weren’t many highlights in his WCW run, he did pull off some good performances against DDP and Booker T. as well as a beauty of a “tribute match” to brother Owen against Chris Benoit. Granted, with the exception of the Diesel matches, all of these bouts were against guys who were world-class performers in their own right. However, even when the bookers put Hart up against a complete slug, he delivered the goods and put on matches that were surprisingly good for his level of competition. Want proof? Go take a look at what he did in the ring when paired with the likes of Isaac Yankem (a very green Kane), Yokozuna, Sid Vicious, or a broken down Terry Funk in late 1990’s WCW. Also, note that I was able to run down a long laundry list of great Hart matches here without using the words “Shawn” or “Michaels,” arguably his greatest career rival.
In fact, in many ways, I would say that Bret Hart is more UNDERRATED than he is overrated. Before goofs started running around in our comment section and claiming that Bret Hart couldn’t wrestle, his reputation was largely that he was a guy who could put on a great match but couldn’t cut a promo or get across a personality. This is something that I’ve always greatly disagreed with. If you go and watch Hart’s heel run in 1997, he’s an awesome arrogant bad guy. Even if you look at Bret Hart was a babyface, he was never a wacky, over the top character like John Cena or the Rock, but he did exactly what he needed to do in terms of playing the role of the humble, hardworking babyface champion who believably put wrestling over like it was a shoot.
So, no, Bret Hart isn’t overrated. He’s one of the best of all time.
Wes Kirk – AGREE: When I was watching Bret Hart growing up I was never a big fan of his, and the fact he had very little charisma and wasn’t as appealing as the larger than life characters didn’t help matters. Over the years my attitude has changed towards Bret Hart and although I’m still a massive Shawn Michaels fan I’ve learned to see just how the Hitman has become renowned for his technical skill in various matches and also I’ve seen more charisma out of him in 2010 than his entire career beforehand. But that is just the problem: His best mic work came after his in-ring career was pretty much history.
Inside the ring nobody will deny Hart had excellent matches with tons of opponents. I remember how well he and Randy Savage worked together back in 1987 on SNME, how Bret and Mr. Perfect put on classics, Hart/Flair, and later on his matches with Owen Hart, Steve Austin, Shawn Michaels, The Undertaker, and one of my all-time favorites Roddy Piper. The problem is that most of those people were already were known as good to great workers and the question revolves around the proclamation that Bret is the absolute best there was, is, or ever will be. That answer has to be a no, because Bret was lacking the charisma and character development that is so crucial to a top draw. In every feud, Bret pretty much entered into it without the ability to go on the mic and got torn apart by his opponents such as Flair, Austin, and Michaels. Bret also had a more predictable moveset that once HBK picked apart on commentary by calling moves before Bret went for the exact one he predicted. The problem with Bret wasn’t that he was not a great wrestler but he sure as hell is not the best ever although he’s a deserving Hall of Famer, which I can’t say for most of the people inducted. When I think of the best ever I think of a complete package, somebody who can talk a great game and then step it up even higher in the ring. Bret could deliver some five-star classic matches but on the mic he could barely pull two and a half. Bret was excellent at making larger guys look tougher and smaller guys worth a push in the management’s eyes but ultimately he just doesn’t have the tools required for his catchphrase to be true. He had hissy fits backstage, he nearly held up the WWF championship in 1997, he demanded so much of the WWF in his contract re-signing in 1996 that the company was forced to make significant salary cuts for other people according to the recent Legends roundtable, and he and Shawn were also well-known for fighting each other backstage verbally and physically. On the mic, I believe his best work can be summed up in two years: 1997 and 2010. In 1997 he was putting on the best anti-American gimmick and getting cheered outside of America but booed inside of it and in 2010 he was everybody’s favorite underdog going up against Vince McMahon in the revenge match fans had dreamt of since the Montreal Screwjob. To be absolutely clear on things, I believe Bret is great but when it comes to being overrated I do believe the man is guilty as charged.
Jack Stevenson – DISAGREE: While I totally respect Bret Hart’s achievements, he’s far from my favorite wrestler of all time. Michaels, Flair, Austin, Rock, Hogan, Foley, even Mysterio… I would rather watch matches from all of those people than I would Bret Hart. But, the statement asks me whether Bret Hart is overrated, not my personal opinion on him, and I don’t think he is. I think he’s given the correct amount of praise, as well as criticism, from the wrestling world as a whole.
Take a look at the list on the recent “Top 50 WWE Superstars of All Time” DVD. I know pretty much everyone will disagree with it in some way, shape or form, but being as it’s produced by the company themselves, it’s still the most legitimate countdown of the greatest pro wrestlers to ever grace a WWE ring that you’ll find. Bret Hart finished in 4th position, and I think that’s a reasonably fair assessment. It’s perhaps a tad higher than I would have put him, but being as the title suggests the ranking is based solely on WWE achievements, you can only really begrudge him being above the Rock and Hulk Hogan. If that’s what the company thinks, then I think they’re pretty much on the right lines.
So, what’s the fans perspective on him? Well, generally it’s a fair one. You’d be hard-pressed to find someone who actively dislikes Bret Hart; pretty much everyone can appreciate the litany of classic matches he’s put on, and some people might class him as their personal favorite superstar of all time. The key word there though is personal, and I don’t think many people would actually try to claim that, based on any criteria, Hart is the greatest superstar of all time. In terms of charisma he was at best solid but unspectacular, and while his in ring work was absolutely superb, his best matches were condensed mostly into a six year period from 1991-1997. Obviously I’m not trying to say that before and after that he had no good bouts, when you compare to Shawn Michaels, who was putting on epics from his AWA days to the Rockers right up to his retirement, and Ric Flair, who damn near did it from his first match right to his last month, and Hart’s record sort of pales a bit. I think most people recognize this.
And as a person? Bret seems likeable, but also brutally honest, as anyone who has read his book will know. In it, he regales us with tales of his marital misdeeds as he traveled the world while his wife stayed at home with the children. He isn’t proud of it in any way, but compared to the bright, peppy tomes of Chris Jericho and Mick Foley, it’s dark and uncomfortable reading. Of course, it’s difficult to mention this without even touching on the Montreal incident, and I think Bret gets a fair shake here as well; what happened must have been deeply upsetting for a man who dedicated his life to the WWF, and that’s reflected in people’s general attitudes. However, Hart’s detractors also raise valuable points. Bret may come off in a good light from his backstage wars with Shawn, but as the old saying goes, it takes two to tango. And wrestling convention dictates that, when it all came down to it, Hart should have lost the title to Shawn Michaels. There are decent arguments from both sides, and that helps give the whole sordid Screwjob a fair, just airing, something that is difficult to find at times in professional wrestling.
So, in short, Bret Hart isn’t overrated, but he isn’t underrated either. The general judgment on him is a fair one, and I don’t think his detractors or apologists can complain too much on the issue.
Greg DeMarco – DISAGREE: As a young wrestling fan, I always loved Bret Hart. I thoroughly enjoyed his technical style when he was merely half of The Hart Foundation. When he got pushed through the WrestleMania IV battle royal, I was thrilled to see the reaction he was getting. As his career progressed, I became an even bigger fan of “The Hitman.”
You can’t argue against Bret’s list of accomplishments. During his career, Bret won two WWF World Tag Team Championships with Hart Foundation partner Jim Neidhart. As a singles competitor, he won the Intercontinental Championship twice, and held the WWF Championship five times. In WCW he won the World Championship twice, the United States title four times and even shared a tag team title run with Goldberg. He’s in the WWE Hall of Fame, and deserves to be considered among the top of the Hall of Fame inductees. He also won the King of the Ring twice, including the event’s first pay-per-view installment in 1993. If you want to consider his Pro Wrestling Illustrated accomplishments, you have two feuds of the year, three matches of the year, a lifetime achievement award, back-to-back #1 rankings in the PWI 500 and a #4 ranking in their all-time “PWI Years” rankings. Maybe you like the Wrestling Observer? Two five-star matches, two feuds of the year, one match of the year and a Hall of Fame induction there, as well.
Some might argue that Bret is overrated because of his in-ring abilities. Many point to the “Five Moves of Doom” as a Bret weakness. Nearly every wrestler has a “Five Moves of Doom,” it’s called a moveset. Bret was “The Excellence of Execution” for a reason—he executed his offense with precision accuracy. The Five Moves of Doom make sense for someone with that style. He executes it so well, each move builds to the next, leading him to victory. Others argue against this promo abilities. But if you look at his heel run as the “Canadian Hero” leader of the Hart Foundation in the late 1990’s, you’ll see that he was both a great promo and a great character wrestler. Still others might use the phrase “The Best There Is, The Best There Was, The Best There Ever Will Be” against Bret. It was a catchphrase, just as important as The Rock’s “If You Smellllllllllllllllllllllllllll…” and The Miz’s “And I’m…AWESOME!” Maybe Bret really felt that way. Great. That’s what you want from a guy who is carrying a company, which Bret did.
As for Bret’s real position? He’s neither underrated nor overrated. In fact, I’d say that Bret’s in-ring legacy isn’t at all viewed with rose-colored glasses. I’d say the inclusion of him in many Top 10 and Top 5 “all-time” lists is deserved. I say that Bret’s rating is normally accurate—one of the best wrestlers to ever step foot in a ring.
Steve Cook – DISAGREE. I might have agreed with this statement a few years ago, but it’s become very popular to hate on the Hitman lately. My bestest Internet friend Trent “The Penguin” Howell is a massive hater when it comes to the Excellence of Execution. He used to be a lone voice in the wilderness, but now he fits right in with a large percentage of the Internet Wrestling Community. I know for a fact that Penguin hates this.
From what I can tell, the Bret Hart haters have a couple of main problems with him. Much of it has to do with stuff that happened off-screen (the whining about Montreal), which I don’t really consider when ranking great wrestlers. If we did that guys like Ric Flair & Steve Austin certainly wouldn’t rank in the all-time Top 5. His promos are fair game for criticism. Other than his great run during the USA vs. Canada angle in 1997 where he was on fire every week, he doesn’t really have any great promos to his credit except for “Who are you to doubt El Dandy?”. People say that Bret lacked charisma, but I think the fact that Bret has a fan base across the world that very few wrestlers can equal refutes that argument. You can’t win over such a large number of people unless you’ve got that whole “Cult of Personality” thing going for you. Whether it was his personality or his incredible ability to have a good match with whoever he was in the ring with, Bret connected with people like few others in wrestling have.
Bret does very well in our Top 25 polls. The Hart Foundation was #6 on my list of the Top 25 Tag Teams. They came in at #3 overall…with the exception of the Midnight Express there wasn’t a team that I thought it was completely unfair to rank them over. Yeah, I had them a little bit lower than everybody else, but I didn’t think it was a big deal. Bret was #6 on our Top 25 Wrestlers poll. I can’t find the ballot I cast for that poll, but I figure that I would rank him in that range today.
I wouldn’t rank Bret as the greatest of all time. Does he belong in the conversation with guys like Austin, Flair, Hogan, Michaels & Savage? Absolutely. He was one of the biggest worldwide stars of the 1990s and has a catalogue of matches that stands up next to anybody’s.
Francisco Ramirez – DISAGREE: The phrase “Oh f**k no” seems extremely fitting for this! Bret Hart might be a lot of things, some positive and obviously some negative. To think that the man is overrated is just absurd. It’s admirable to see that someone had such a deep found respect, love and admiration for his craft and sport. Something that in today’s scene is extremely lacking! We all know the story, many have seen the bio DVD, and others have read the book, so I would imagine we are all familiar with the man!
So how in the world can people now claim Bret Hart is overrated? I’ve never truly understood it, but doing a Google search of the phrase “Bret Hart overrated” led me to some interesting results. Many of the arguments against Bret Hart consist of things such as, “he didn’t draw as a champion”, “his move-set was limited”, “wasn’t great on the mic” and mentions of his WCW run.
There are two sides to every coin, for every person that believes he is overrated, there is a die-hard loyal fan that has taken a huge gulp of the Bret Hart “kool-aid”, thus believing Bret to be the greatest ever. I sit in the middle. I strongly believe Bret is not overrated, but I won’t crown him as the greatest ever either. Bret Hart is like a Swiss Army knife, he can do it all. Some things better than others! He proved himself as a great tag wrestler during his tenure as one half of the Hart Foundation. He broke through as a singles star during his Intercontinental title run. His first WWE Championship run wasn’t the greatest ever, but he finally broke through as a main eventer during his second title reign. His mic skills were above average, but at times they could be lacking, I’ll give you that, but he gets his point across, and his Anti-America promo’s showed growth as far as his promo skills are concerned. Did he draw money? Of course! It wasn’t Steve Austin money, but he commandeered the WWE ship through rough waters, in a time where characters were extremely cartoonish and over the top. Case in point, after winning the WWE title against Ric Flair, Hart defended the title in Saturday Nights Main Event against Papa Shango! Bret steered the ship, and didn’t do too bad. Hell, it can be argued that Shawn Michaels didn’t draw during his initial Championship reigns as well, and many believe him to be the greatest ever. Vince McMahon himself has been quoted as saying that WCW could “have built the entire franchise around him (Bret)”. Quite a thing to say if Bret never drew any money! Move-set being limited, please, do I really need to go into this? The WCW run I really can’t defend, but how much of that is really his fault? I’m a firm believer that Hart lost the love he had for the business after Montreal, not to mention Owen’s death. Even still, the Hitman phoning it in is still better than 75% of what was available. I am of the opinion that many of the people saying this didn’t exactly live through Bret Hart’s time on the top, and let’s face it; wrestling isn’t the same as back then. This is also a solid theory as to why there are people that believe that the Flair/Steamboat trilogy is overrated!
If anything Bret can come off as a dick or really bigheaded, don’t know the man personally so I can’t really go into that! He really didn’t leave much to the imagination in his book. Maybe it’s the catchphrase, “the best there is, the best there was and the best there ever will be” that irks so many people. If the man believes that of himself, so be it. He has the track record to back it up. In my eyes, not the greatest ever, but definitely up there, top 10, maybe even top 5. Overrated though? I believe the phrase was “oh f**k no”!
Tony Acero – DISAGREE: I was never a fan of Bret Hart. Not to say that he wasn’t good, he just wasn’t what I was looking for in a wrestler as a child. I’m 25, my target market was the kid-friendly, over the top characters. I was more drawn to the mystique of The Undertaker, the bad assery of Razor Ramon, the arrogance of HBK and the craziness of Jake “The Snake” Robert. With all that being said, Bret Hart just was too bland for me. Of course, when 411mania hit my life, it was a gift and a curse. Gone was the mystique of everything, and in its place was the necessity to learn everything about these people who created masterpieces in the ring. One of those particular artists was Bret Hart. In hindsight, he had everything I could have wanted as a fan with the mindset I have today, even if as a child I saw him as “boring.” Bret left a legacy behind that is somewhat hard to tarnish (although, arguably, his most recent returns to WWE may very well have done just that). Even with my apathy towards him as a younger fan and my appreciation as a current fan, I don’t think I’ve ever looked at him as overrated. He’s always been talked about as one of the best in the ring, and I truly can’t find any match that differs from that sentiment. Any time he is mentioned as a great wrestler, it’s pretty much warranted. He isn’t one of those guys in which you have no answer when people ask why they think he’s the greatest. His in ring prowess is impeccable, his promo skills were stilted but still powerful, his fanfare-strong, his ethic-untouchable. I think he’s respected, I think he’s gained the accolades that he’s achieved and I think that his “ratings” among fans of wrestling all over is just where it should be.
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