Ask 411 Wrestling 02.08.12: The Streak, Milestones, Politics, More!
Posted by Mathew Sforcina on 02.08.2012
Is CM Punk ripping off Chris Jericho? Was Eric Bischoff really trying to kill the WWF? Was Ric Flair vs. Randy Savage a better match than Flair vs. Hogan? All this and more covered this week in Ask 411 Wrestling!
Hello, and welcome to the only column hoping for the Triple H puppet from Are You Serious? to be sold soon so that someone can run an angle on the indys where they are insane and they think they are getting groomed by Triple H to take over the wrestling world, Ask 411 Wrestling! I am your author, Mathew Sforcina, and here's hoping this week is filled with facts, fun and… fun!
It would appear that The Tom Tom Club, as it exists now, is no more. However, phoenix like, it will rise again on Wild Talk Radio, starting next week. And live and everything! YAY! More info once I get it. Until then, go listen to 411mania's podcasts and the Wrestling PodClash, why don't you.
And, as always, the best damn banner on the website. I dare anyone to say otherwise.
Revealing Yourself By Donning A Mask:Billzilla says that Kanyon once did this as Mortis. Now, I'm not disproving that because it does fit in with the character and story during the transition between Mortis and Kanyon, but I don't recall that ever happening. Readers?
Chris Hero: May actually be heading to WWE now. But the music probably won't follow him.
Rick Rolling: The worst thing? I actually LIKE the damn song…
The Alien Match: Lots of good choices. I won't pass judgement, just offer a few ideas, in that I wouldn't go with a match with interference from a ‘good guy', or for that matter any match involving more than two sides. A straight up single or tag team match is much easier to explain, good guys V bad guys. The 92 Rumble, as much as I LOVE that match, is too complicated to explain. Likewise any match with Benoit in it… Too much time explaining that. I mean, Angle/Benoit? Angle/Benoit V Edge/Mysterio? Both ‘good' choices, both out of the running. But it's a question that can lead to debate. Which is good.
Your Turn, Smart Guy…
Who am I? I once beat The Funkasaurus on TV. I'm a Triple Crown Champion in WWE. I was involved in a famous series of skits involving a yellow suit. Of the three men I've held tag titles with, 2 are retired. I've twice won WWE titles off-camera (although only one of those two was at an actual house show). I've pinned a woman to win a title and win a tag match. Who am I?
And there I was thinking this one would be hard. And yet, it was really easy. And led to some rather bizarre comments in various places. But nick had it first in the comment section fully. Sort of.
You are Christian!
Beat Brodus around this time last year during the feud with Del Rio.
Has held the WHC, IC, and tag belts.
Skits were when E&C were disguised as Uno and Dos of the Conquistadores.
Held the tag belts with Edge, Storm and Jericho, with only Jericho being active.
Beat Booker at a live event for the IC belt in 2003, and I believe he beat Bradshaw for the Euro belt in an untelevised SD! match in 2001 (but not positive).
He pinned Molly to win the Hardcore title at WM X-8, and of course beat Lita/Trish in a match with Jericho as his partner at Armageddon in 2003.
But as others said, the yellow suit, I had intended to refer to this…
Who am I? I'm currently part of a ‘major' American Indy or two, although I'm better known for my time in the big leagues. During that time, I was involved in a major angle that helped begin the Attitude Era, while during it my interviews were often a highlight thanks to insults and taunts. I've worked as a manager, and done some backstage work as well. I was involved in the internet early on in the WWF's time on there, and I don't use my real name. Who am I?
Questions, Questions, Who's Got The Questions?
John Galt (Who?) starts us off.
Why are so many of the questions you receive full of paragraphs of the questioner's opinion?
It varies. The idea should be to provide background and context for their question. Some questions are justified in that the opinion is what they are asking about, if I agree or disagree. Some people just want to vent, and since I publish stuff mostly unedited, they view me as a cheap soap box. Some people have great ideas they want to share, or at least they think they do.
But mostly it's because I write this column based on length, and by leaving in the long, rambling needless paragraphs I get there so much quicker. Because I'm a lazy bitch.
…
No Chandler? Alright then, moving on.
Matt wants to talk water breaks, as we discussed last week.
Hi, Mathew,
As far as water breaks, Austin makes a joke on the one of the commentary tracks of his new DVD that one of his trademark moves was to sneak drinks (water, soda, beer) as a part of the match, but also to refresh himself. I think at Mania 13, he grabbed a fan's soda, swigged it, and then tossed it on Bret. Guys do that kind of thing a lot these days (R-Truth being the most notable, but it goes on a lot if you watch), and it kind of does bug me a bit. Never saw Flair or Steamboat needing a drink during their hour-long matches, and these days, no one even goes an hour.
The Rey RR '06 swig does kind of take away from it, I think (plus, you can see him actually spit it out, leaving a big wet spot on the mat. At least swallow it and dispose of the evidence, man.) Rumor was they weren't even sure he could pull it off, which is why the match was in the middle of the card, and so they could do the Undertaker return angle. So, they probably had the water handy to help Rey along. But if they weren't sure that he could pull it off, why not just give him #18 or 20? I know it was the Eddie angle, but if you don't have faith in the guy, why give him the ball? . Plus, they had just done the Benoit coast-to-coast story two years before? If you watch it, Rey spends most of the first half just lying around, anyway. Probably the lamest marathon Rumble appearance ever. Rey himself did better in '09 as number one.
Maybe I'm just too old-school and cynical.
I believe it wasn't so much that they weren't sure he could last an hour, it was more that they weren't sure he could wrestle an hour and then do the spots needed at the end. See, it's all and good for a guy who's mostly ground based and who doesn't flip about to go out there and work a rumble, but a guy like Mysterio, they were worried that when it came time for the final segments, he'd slip and fall. Probably the closest we've had to a ‘back up winner', in that since Orton was the end goal anyway, it didn't matter so much who won.
Because that was the reason for the hour long deal. They really wanted Orton to be hated, so the idea was always to build up Rey as this hope story and the impossible dream so that when Orton beat him at No Way Out to get the title shot he'd be thought of as worse than Hitler, and then go on to wrestle Batista Angle at WM. Rey entering at a late number wouldn't have been as big a sob story.
Steven asks about pay.
I don't understand from a business standpoint how independent promotions can afford to pay their wrestlers. I can fathom how comedy clubs can afford to pay stand up comedians, because that's one guy (stand up comedians are very similar to wrestlers in a way aren't they). But at any given wrestling show, there are at least 16 people working when you factor in managers, announcers, plants, etc. So i'm asking an independent wrestler...how the fuck do they do it? Are you promised a percentage of the gate or is it a fixed rate and they just have to hope that enough people show up? Please help me on this one.
Oh so many stories and jokes I could tell but won't since I don't want to get blackballed. But let's discuss a totally theoretical and fake company, say, PW3.0, and how they run.
First of all, 16's a low number. Add in lights and sound, refs and security, hangers on, there is normally 20-30 people involved in a running a high end show. So how can you afford to pay them all? Well you don't.
Any company that runs lots of shows will probably have a school either built in or attached. And with a school comes trainees. And trainees are free labor. Most of the boring jobs, setting the ring up, running the stalls, music and so on, will be done by trainees. It's part work experience, part paying dues. But you don't pay them a damn thing. So most of PW3.0's boring jobs are done by students from the Beta Academy, say.
You then have the exact opposite end, the high end guys. The names. If it's a big show, you may well have one or two huge names coming in. The big names will get big up front money, plus a percentage of the gate, plus travel and accommodation. And they get to run their own stall. Maybe, depends on how well you know the guy and how far it is. A show down the road for a good friend will probably cost a lot less than a show for an unknown on the other side of the world, for instance.
Those in the middle, it varies in cost, but they don't get percentages. They'll get a flat rate, ranging from a few bucks to cover gas for the up and coming jobbers to maybe a couple hundred for a moderate star. They'll also be allowed to sell their own merch, perhaps with a percentage taken out, perhaps not, depends on the promoter and the relationships involved.
Now, if the show is run by the promoter and not enough people turn up (as opposed to a show bought by the venue in which case the promoter gets a flat fee up front) then yes, he has a shortfall. Some promoters will pay up anyway and hope the next show does better. Others might go to the boys and say that the show didn't draw, and reduce pay accordingly, perhaps with a promise to make it up to them later. Again, it depends on the relationships involved.
So, overall, unless you're a big name, you're not getting enough at a show to make a living. You need a day job. But the promoters have merch, and DVDs, and so they tend to break even. If they don't, then they don't stick around too long.
And hopefully I'm not blackballed still, so let's move onto Kevin who I can and can't answer.
Here are a couple of questions that I had from watching WWE Classics on Demand:
When did the WWF start bringing their own ring to every show and not relying on the rings that were provided by that arenas? I noticed from watching a lot of the shows that the rings are different and the only common piece is the WWE turnbuckle covers.
I really tried, but I couldn't find any sources on this, beyond maybe mid to late 80's as a guess. Readers?
When did the WWF starting creating sets for their shows and ppvs? I am not talking about just the play by play area and interview area but actually sets.
It depends on what you consider a set. In the early 90's, WWF did create a flashy light show, as seen here in the walkway on the very first Raw in 1993.
1995 was when WWF brought in the giant RAW letters for Raw, which would be the first true set dressing, the A being a giant video bank. 1997 was when the WWF brought in the Titantron. 1995 was also the year that saw the introduction of the In Your House PPVs, and with it the IYH set that many remember.
But one show with a memorable set was Wrestlemania IX, and the roman themed entrance.
But the flashy lights set was in place in 1992 at WM, while at the Rumble they just had the big WWF symbol which isn't really a set, per say.
So depending on what you consider a set, 1993 or 1995. Or some answer below, I'm sure.
Greg asks if Eric Bischoff really was after Vince.
I have a few questions I'm hoping you can shed some light on. Keep up the phenominal work.
I know Vince McMahon is full of shit 99.9% of the time, but he and others have said on more than one occasion that Eric Bischoff and WCW wanted to put him out of business. I don't doubt Bischoff said as much since he seems prone to hyperbole, but going head to head on Monday night and offering wrestlers more money to work for WCW does not in my mind constitute trying to put a competitor out of business. It's just the normal competition of the marketplace. Am I missing something else Bischoff did to try and kill the WWF? Did he ever try to run a free Clash up against a WWF PPV like Crockett? Did he ever try to get exclusivity deals with arenas or PPV providers? After all, if Bischoff had all the resources of the Turner empire behind him as McMahon seems to believe, I would think WCW could've squeezed the WWF even harder than they actually did.
Yes, you can argue that broadcasting in a timeslot that has a proven track record of having wrestling fans tune in to watch wrestling is just smart business. Hiring wrestlers for more money is also, arguably, good business. But when you actively give away the results of your competitor's programming live on air? That's clearly you going after them.
You don't see CSI pause in the middle of their action to say "Don't change the channel, turns out on that other show that the father did it because he's gay" or something. Bischoff would give away results when he could, and would denigrate the competition when he could. Of course, WWF did the same thing as well, they were just a little more subtle about it ("This match won't end in 30 seconds with a bunch of run ins) or far more blatant about it (Billionaire Ted), but they don't mention that.
Bischoff couldn't put on a Clash the same time as a PPV because the PPV companies told both companies off the last time, the two (and later three) companies had to keep themselves separate and not compete against each other or else the PPV companies would toss them both off. Likewise any attempt to force WWF out of a arena, he'd get sued.
And while Vince may have thought he was up against Ted Turner, and he certainly paints the picture that way, Bischoff did not have the whole of Ted Turner's empire behind him. He had Turner's support, yes, but there was still a large business with many voices, few of them friendly. Bischoff couldn't do anything and everything, he had some restrictions, more as he went along.
But Bischoff did want to kill the WWF. He's admitted it since, he was talking about it at the time, and that did appear to be his goal. The evilness of this has been played up by some (WWE), but it was clearly his intention. Some of his moves were flat out anti WWF, but most of them were just good business moves, yes. So it's a mix of both.
BOTCHAMANIA 200! BE EXCITED!
I only just found this one. Don't judge me.
Bryan continues the WCW theme.
My question has to do with Ole Anderson as a booker in WCW. If the product in 1989 NWA/WCW was so good with Cornette, Flair and Sullivan was so great, why even change it in 1990? and if Ole having the book was so horrible, why did WCW give the book to Bill Watts in 92, isn't his style of booking almost the same as Anderson's?
Yes, 1989 was a superb year for the NWA/WCW in terms of storylines, as Herd was bought in and he put Flair in charge of the booking. He focused on acquiring talent, as he hired a whole lot of new, young talent to guaranteed contracts, Herd's thinking that it would pay off in the long run.
As 1990 began, the booking committee was revamped slightly, and there was 5 man committee answering to Jim Herd. Ric Flair, Jim Cornette, and Kevin Sullivan were in charge of the angles and matches while Jim Ross and Terry Funk ran the TV production side, while Herd focused on the talent acquisition, and was actually pretty good at it, as he got a whole lot of young talent. But then again, he couldn't keep Steamboat around…
But anyway, that only lasted a couple of months, thanks to one word.
Politics.
Flair being on the committee was causing problems, as wrestlers were beginning to grumble that maybe Flair was booking himself too strong, that he was making himself look too good. Instead of facing a revolt, Flair resigned from the booking committee in early March. Jim Herd brought in Jim Barnett, and took control of the booking committee, adding in Wahoo McDaniel, Jody Hamilton and Jim Crockett as well. Sullivan and Cornette's power dropped quickly, given that they were Flair allies.
But then Herd needed to appoint a new head of the committee, and since Ole Anderson had been taken off TV at the start of the year, he was chosen, as he had experience at booking. His hatred of the contract system was well known, and he began to book as if it was 6 years prior in Georgia Championship Wrestling. He jobbed out the young guys hoping they'd quit so he could bring in older stars loyal to him for less money.
This didn't work, and the company tanked. Ole was eventually fired, and was replaced for the short term by the ad hoc group of Jim Ross, Tony Schiavone, Kevin Sullivan, and Ric Flair, who held the fort until Herd could find a new head booker.
But between Ole and Watts was Dusty Rhodes, who booked in 1991. When he came in, it was hoped by the boys that since he wasn't wrestling, he couldn't book himself strong. Instead, he was "Goodwill Ambassador for WCW" and was mentioned in almost every segment by everyone. He also changed the booking committee to his buddies and pals (with Sullivan the only guy to remain from the ad hoc group). Dusty runs the show… Badly, and then Herd loses Flair in the middle of 1991.
Herd tried for a few more months, but then quit. Herd had tried to bring in a more corporate structure to the company, but the problem was that he didn't get the politics, as every young, huge up-side potential wrestler he put on contract would get buried by the old hands that the bookers would hire. Or, alternatively, Herd would give stupid contracts to untested workers while veteran stars could be gotten much cheaper. Either way, he gave up and quit in early 1992. Kip Frye was there for a couple months. And then he brought in Bill Watts.
Now then, at the time, this DID make sense. Bill Watts had been an option a year ago, but he had wanted too much control for Turner's suits. This time, he and Frye did reach an agreement. Now, yes, the last time Watts booked was in the mid 80's, when he booked the Mid South/UWF territory. At the time, it was the most cutting edge promotion in the country. So, naturally, he would still be cutting edge now, right?
Nope, like Ole and Dusty before him, he was still caught in what he thought worked, and hadn't changed with the times. His booking ideas, while all based on a solid enough idea (we're real, not like the flashy WWF crap), infuriated the fans too much, plus his backstage moves were out of step. Part of the problem was that he got paid on how much he cut costs, so he cut costs.
But that's another issue. The fact is, at the time, Watts' track record was for cutting edge, they just assumed he'd kept up with wrestling in his time off. He hadn't.
Justin continues the WCW trip, albeit Invasion WCW…
hey matt,
just a quick question that i was reminded of by watching an InVasion video. toward the end of the WCW/ECW InVasion the hardyz won the wcw tag team title. as you can see in this video
at around the 12:42 mark the belts look totally different from the tag team championships at the end of WCW and beginning of the InVasion. they look like unpainted WWE Tag Team titles from that time period. any idea on what's up with that? i've researched a bit but cant find anything.
thanks for taking the time to read this!
Hmm. Interesting.
Here's the match intro, albiet reversed and with a stupid filter.
I… Are…
The Dudleyz are the WWF champions. The Hardys are the WCW champions. But I believe that, on that night, they have the wrong titles. The Dudleys look to me to have the WCW titles, and the Hardys the WWF ones.
I'm willing for someone to correct me here, but I believe that the two teams had the belts of their ‘sides' rather than the titles they should have had.
Am I insane readers?
Wait, don't answer that. Am I right or wrong here?
My Damn Opinion
Quickoffice gets this section off and running in a big way.
Great column read it every week yada yada yada
1. While watching the True Story of WrestleMania on Netflix I'm seeing the story of how Hogan and Flair were in the WWF/E at the same time and that this was suppose to be a dream match of some sorts. So the story goes that the fans (WWF/E) were not too accepting of Flair and that was why they went with Flair/Savage instead at Mania 8. My question is was this actually a blessing in disguise because in my opinion Flair/Savage had better chemistry than Flair/Hogan and the storyline was so much better. I mean Hogan/Flair on paper sounds good but Flair/Savage was a wrestling enthusiasts dream as far as storyline goes.
Storyline? Workrate yes, but while the Flair/Savage "She Was Mine First!" angle did win awards and was popular, a wrestling enthusiast's wet dream was clearly more Flair/Hogan. Flair/Savage was great, yes, but Hogan V Flair was THE match your ‘true' wrestling fan debated about over and over again in the 80's. The two world champions, one the slimy heel, the other the heroic babyface, the man who was the default WWF champion vs. the guy who never really lost the NWA Title… That's a purist's dream match right there.
But the WWF fans weren't wrestling purists on the whole, it seems. And/or the purists knew that Hogan Always Wins. So the house show run they did didn't work, and they went with Plan B. Yes, Plan B worked out very well for them, especially given Hogan's time off. But Plan A was still the ‘preferred' option, from a snob purist's view.
2. I have asked a similar questin like this before and I pretty much asked whether or not Vince was getting soft however the more I watch of these WWE DvD's and hear stories it seems like Vince is really just a nice guy. I mean from him giving many wrestlers second chances and doing things like helping wrestlers out and paying for wrestlers medical bills and rehab. What I would like to kow is is this a bad thing for Vince to actually show that he does have a heart and that he is similar too but is not 100% MR. MCMAHON?
Not really, because they may need Mr McMahon again. I mean, the character is so established as being pure evil in the company that even when they make him face, it's still bubbling under the surface. DVDs and books and the like are fine to show that, you know, he's actually a great guy. But on air? You need to protect the character a little, since it's so strong a character, if they get desperate, bring in Mr. McMahon. He's always good for a reaction and a feud.
Showing Vince kissing puppydogs and petting babies on air just ruins the Mr McMahon character too much. Occasional pats on the back is fine, but any long term ‘Vince is nice' crusades would just ruin the character.
3. When it came to ring announcers Howard Finkle just has that it factor because of the way he would always pause between ...The winner of the match...and ..NEWW!!! , was this always planned for him to announce like this or was it coincidance? Secondly does he train the new ring announcers too?
He should be training people but apparently WWE doesn't want that or he can't teach them or something… I dunno why he can't teach people, but then, he's taken years to develop his skill.
But the pause, which is part of the reason why he's the single greatest wrestling ring announcer ever, (seriously, where's that Youtube collection video? Finkle's calls?) was learnt through years of announcing. The pause, which puts more emphasis on the word and thus the result, and therefore gets the best reaction from the crowd, as if history has just taken place, was a skill he learnt after a couple of years at the job. But by 1981, if you look at footage from the time, he had the tone down pat.
It's just the skill at being an announcer that he learnt. So it was ‘deliberate', I suppose.
4. Getting back to the Story of WrestleMania, I remember Lawrence Taylor vs Bam Bam Bigelow and looing at it now, Taylor did pretty well for himself. I would like to know if he (Taylor ) was ever offered a contract to become a full time wrestler?
I never heard of Taylor getting a contract offer from anyone. He was a marketing ploy, and the quality of the match was shocking, but he's far too wild and over the top to control on a regular basis. Plus he'd probably demand far too much money. I can't prove that he didn't, but I'd be shocked if he did.
5. The last time that I asked this question I really was not satisfied with the response I got but I understood however it pops up again because of recent events. I previously wrote in and asked how come CM Punk and pretty much copied Jericho's gimmick at the time Punk was doing the SES and he was the Saviour and I remember Jericho also being a Saviour for the E and the response I got was that although angles were similar they were not the same. Since you guys know more than I do about these things I let it go until recently I keep hearing Punk say that he is the best wrestler in the world. Again this is a copy of Jericho saying that He is the best in the world at what he does. Why does know one see that Punk is nothing more than a Jericho 3.0 (he can't be 2.0 b/c Jericho in a suit was 2.0)?
Well, Jericho certainly does so now, at least in character. I still don't think that ‘hypocrites and parasites' Jericho was the same as SES Punk. The characters were different. Of course, now Jericho does have a point. He has been ‘robbed' from, in that Jericho's gimmick that he stole from Javier Bardem he created was influential, and many people have taken from that. Like any successful gimmick, others will take parts from it and use it themselves.
Admittedly, as I said elsewhere during the week, I had hoped they'd go a slightly different direction, or at least, had an idea of how to go elsewhere. See, someone had pointed out that the huge build up to Jericho's return was ‘wasted'. But, see, you don't have to look at the 10 weeks of build up, you have to go back to the Summer of Punk '11 to explain it. Remember that brief time when CM Punk was the talk of the wrestling world? How he said some things you don't normally say? How he shocked the world by leaving the WWE and taking the WWE title with him? We all remember that, right? Then what happened?
Punk came back the next week. He missed one taping.
Now sure, it's worked out well for Punk, he's the WWE Champ, he's got the power, he's comfortable now. But that wasn't what he wanted. CM Punk said he wanted to change the world, force the WWE to adapt and change. What happened?
He let HHH, a guy Jericho knows all too well, turn him into the very thing he hated. Sure, he still cracks jokes, still wears nicer T-Shirts than Cena, but he's still just been turned into another Cena wannabe.
So Jericho saw this happening and has to step in. He has to show Punk what he's done, how he wasted all that build up to become just another wrestler. He's parodied Punk's long build up, in such a way that Punk wouldn't get suspicious. He then reappeared and did the exact opposite of Punk, proving that the fans would cheer no words at all, so why should he think Punk's words are truly having an effect? He came back to prove Punk a fraud, that Punk was noting but another hypocrite using the fans to get what he wanted.
But instead he just trolled us. Which is fine, I guess…
But as to why Punk isn't seen as a Jericho rip off, it's because, to be fair, Punk's been doing similar stuff for years. His work in the independent scene is pretty close to what he's doing now, just a matter of scale and experience. If you rip someone off early enough and do it long enough, eventually the two will diverge and you become ‘original'. Punk is not seen as a Jericho clone for the same reason Cena's not a Hogan clone, or Flair wasn't a Rodgers clone. Wrestlers influence each other all the time. Sometimes it's a blatant rip off, yes. But the subtle stuff is part of wrestling.
6. One of the worst acting jobs that I have ever seen was when Mark Henry superplexed the Big Show and the ring broke. The move itself was ok and the ring falling apart was acceptable given the size of these two men. However what was not acceptable was the horrible acting job by the referee in that match if you watch closely (honestly you don't even have to really observe because it is so obvious) the ref over dramatizes his fall and he even flops before the ring. When things like that happen do the refs get an earful backstage from VKM? or are they Fired?
Sure, if a ref fucks up or makes a mistake or acts stupidly, he'll get chewed out. If it's big enough or constant enough, he'll get fired. Ask Wes Adams, who got fired for counting John Morrison's shoulders to the mat.
But let's watch the reversed-so-WWE-won't-find-it tape.
And for comparison, the last time this happened.
Well, it's pretty similar. And I don't really see a problem there. Having been in a ring, it's not a stable surface. There's give in it, which you learn to adjust to. But occasionally even a vet will be a little off on his feet if there's a lot of people in there jumping around. Now, you have the ring collapse on you, you're going to try and keep your balance, and that means look odd. I agree it's not the greatest acting job in the history of WWE, but it's hardly fire-worthy, at least from this side of the computer screen.
Mike has a ‘quick' question that is anything but.
Just a quick question for your damn opinion:
How would you book the end on the career of The Undertaker? Does he win at a Wrestlemania and just never reappear? Lose at Wrestlemania? Kane finally does him in? Some new up and comer takes him out? Paul Bearer has something to do with it? HHH? I would imagine that it has to be something "big."
Thanks for all you do,
It depends a great deal on what he has left to give. Did he just need a year off and he's now back full time? Is he only here for a few more WMs? Is he on the last legs?
I mean, I have put out on twitter a simple idea. WM28, Taker retires HHH. WM29, Taker retires Kane. WM30, Cena retires Taker.
And I think Taker V Cena is the end goal, regardless. It's just a matter of how you get there. If you have time, then you can go that route, or at least have Taker V some other young kid next year (Barrett or Cody Rhodes or someone)…
(All right, I gotta toss this in: I, while writing this, just spoke with my mother about a family function tomorrow via the wonders of wireless communication, and she asked what I was writing about. I explain in brief the streak. Her: "So who can beat him?" Me: "No-one so far, it's 19-0…" Her: "Oh have a girl beat him." Me: "…" Her: "There's girls there, right? Have them gang up on him."
My mother ladies and gentlemen, apparently she's Vince Russo. SWERVE!)
Anyway, given that this year is 20-0, it just depends on how long Taker has left. If they kept him as solely a WM thing, and he could go, I'd probably hold off till he gets to 24-0, THEN do Cena-Taker. Otherwise, if he's on last legs, have him Tombstone Cena after Cena beats Rock and do it next year.
And for the result…
I pick Cena because he's pretty much the only guy on the roster who logically could beat Taker. Anyone already established doesn't really need it (Orton, Jericho) while a young kid is a HUGE gamble, in that yes, beating Taker is instantly a superstar making moment, but then who on the roster can you GUARANTEE will not leave? Cena's the closest to sure you have, outside of Triple H and his daughters.
And yes, before anyone says anything, I know Cena really doesn't need it. But he's the only guy left who you could believe could win. And beating Taker would be, possibly, the thing that officially makes him THE man of the new era. But then, isn't he that already?
Again, it depends on Taker's schedule. If he can go once a year, use him once a year. If he can go more, use him more. If he's barely walking, Cena next year. And... Have Taker retire undefeated. He might come back, even after his retirement, for one more WM match. I think the Streak is too big to fail, in a way. It's built up so much it's just impossible to blow.
But Cena's the only guy I can see doing it. Or me, of course. That would work too.
But what of you reader, what do you think? Discuss/insult me below, and we'll be back next week to work it all out. Until then!
CM Punk is so anti PG. he curses and everything. he the best in the world. and no CM Punk aint ripping off jericho..
Posted By: Guest#3432 (Guest) on February 07, 2012 at 11:03 PM
people can hate on cena all they want but the man can work. he worked a great classic match with CM Punk at the MITB PPV and its all about getting a response and cena gets it whether its cheers or boo's. and cena is still very popular..
Posted By: Guest#4191 (Guest) on February 07, 2012 at 11:04 PM
oye oye there fella. sheamus to win the world title at WM28..
Posted By: Guest#8701 (Guest) on February 07, 2012 at 11:04 PM
some people say cm punk is the best in the world. some say jericho is the best in the world. some even say Daniel Bryan is the best in the world. well the true best in the world is really the Rumble winner Sheamus!! Fella!!
Posted By: Guest#1560 (Guest) on February 07, 2012 at 11:05 PM
i hate TNA as much as i hate TNA marks..
Posted By: Johnson (Guest) on February 07, 2012 at 11:06 PM
You are "Captain Charisma" himself, Christian.
Posted By: Nick M. (Guest) on February 07, 2012 at 11:41 PM
Excuse me, last week you were Christian. This week, you are "Hermie" himself, Mr. Kevin Kelly.
Posted By: Nick M. (Guest) on February 07, 2012 at 11:42 PM
@ Quickoffice
Imagine that...WWE produced DVD's and WWE public relations paint Vince as a nice guy.
I bet you think the babies in the etrade commercials are really talking as well...
Posted By: Guest#4775 (Guest) on February 07, 2012 at 11:45 PM
How about Kharma? ;)
Posted By: Dr. X (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 12:14 AM
You are Kevin Kelly?
Posted By: The WINNAR (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 12:27 AM
wrestlers take each others moves and ideas all the time.
Posted By: Guest#0443 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 12:29 AM
no. punk is as original as they come.
Posted By: Guest#0203 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 12:32 AM
The hate that Cena would get for being the one to beat UT would be tremendous and a perfect way to make him a heel as the smarks on the net here would NEVER cheer for him again.
Posted By: Guest#1119 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 12:39 AM
You are Sean Waltman/123 Kid/Lightning Kid/Syxx/Syxx-pac/X-pac
'major' American Indy = Chikara
Big Leagues = WWF/WCW
Major Angle = X-pac jumps ship from WCW to WWF to be part of DX
Manager = X-Factor (Albert/Justin Credible)
Backstage work = HHH employed "Talent Scout", Chikara "Road Agent"
Don't think Waltman ever went by his real name when performing... maybe for Backdoor to Chyna...
Posted By: Mr. Ace Crusher (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 12:44 AM
TNA is like a prison.
Posted By: Guest#1319 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 12:44 AM
claudio and hero are two of the best indy guys around and now they are in WWE. but will they be a tag team? i say they will be both a tag team and singles guys..
Posted By: Guest#2577 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 12:51 AM
nobody should watch TNA. nobody..
Posted By: Guest#3157 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 12:52 AM
TNA is like a prison.
Posted By: Guest#1319 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 12:44 AM
Last I heard you dont get paid to go to prison. Or get to be on tv. Or are able to leave whenever you like by asking for your release.
Posted By: Guest#2980 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 01:12 AM
CM Punk is so anti PG. he curses and everything. he the best in the world. and no CM Punk aint ripping off jericho..
Posted By: Guest#3432 (Guest) on February 07, 2012 at 11:03 PM
I'm guessing you're a 12 year old who thinks saying 'ass' is cool and edgey?
Posted By: Guest#3742 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 01:13 AM
everything points to you being jim cornette, except i believe that is his real name ... right?
Posted By: Guest#2877 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 01:16 AM
I think this should be Taker's last year. Twenty and zero has a nice ring to it. The match should go similar to last year's in that Taker barely wins and appears unable to walk out. They put him on the cart and everything. Then he sits up grabs a mic and says this is his last match and he's damn sure leaving under his own power. Everybody comes out from the back and lines the ramp applauding and congratulating him. When he gets to the entrance he says something like "Old phenoms don't die. They just fade away." Then lightning some smoke and Taker fades from view.
I know this won't happen. There is too much money in the streak and in Taker's final match for things to end that way but I just think it would be fitting. We didn't know Taker was coming. We didn't have a clue that his career would be as monumental as it has been. We should be surprised by the end, too.
Posted By: gpjunk (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 01:17 AM
Who can you GUARANTEE will not leave nor rock the boat?
CM Punk and Bryan Danielson. Both have toiled the indies and probably never want to do it again, they also keep their noses clean of drugs and alcohol. Neither is going to beat Taker though. Taker should never be beaten period. and every time he beats someone at Mania, he just gets more and more above the rest of the roster. At this point Taker is God tier if he makes short work of Trips and HBK.
Posted By: Guest#6154 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 01:23 AM
Undertaker is this generation's Andre the Giant. Cena is this generation's Hogan. They must inevitably meet. Hogan was already huge when he faced Andre, but that moment is what made him "Immortal."
The thing about the end of the Undertaker is that he's been "killed" so many times he's kind of like Kenny from South Park. You know he'll be back eventually no matter what happens to him. He can never truly "retire" because as soon as you say that he's not coming back, people will begin asking when he's coming back.
Posted By: Guest#6098 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 01:24 AM
Anyone who beats The Undertaker at WrestleMania will not receive a single cheer for a LONG time. Because of that, the WWE has to be prepared to turn whoever beats Undertaker into THE biggest heel the company has ever had. Bigger than Hollywood Hogan, bigger than Triple H, even bigger than Vince McMahon himself. The ONLY person this can work with in my opinion is John Cena, but they really don't have his replacement yet, and it could be a huge gamble losing all of his Make A Wish sponsorships and seeing how the company goes with Cena rampaging through all of the faces. Because of this, I say let Undertaker retire undefeated. I do still wish to see Undertaker vs Cena at WrestleMania 30 though, provided it's of course at MSG like they've teased but seem to not be heading towards.
Posted By: SHADE (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 01:47 AM
You are Jim Cornette?
Posted By: Jonbear (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 03:57 AM
Re: your confusion over who had the WCW and WWF tag titles at the end of the Invasion, the Dudleys and Hardys didn't magically swap belts, you're just forgetting about a bunch of title changes between No Mercy and Survivor Series...
I believe the night after No Mercy (as part of Vince's drive to kill the alliance once and for all) The Rock and Chris Jericho beat the Dudleys for their WWF tag titles. The Dudleys then won the WCW tag titles from the Hardys at the Smackdown taping the next night, where they'd remain for the rest of the Invasion.
Rock and Jericho then lost the WWF tag titles to Booker T and Test, I believe to create build for their WCW title rematch on the next episode of Raw. Then finally the Hardys beat Booker and Test on the Raw before Survivor Series.
Hence the Alliance team had their tag titles, and the WWF team had their tag titles.
Posted By: DaJ (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 04:30 AM
I'm currently part of a ‘major' American Indy or two (ROH and Lucha Libre USA), although I'm better known for my time in the big leagues (the WWF). During that time, I was involved in a major angle that helped begin the Attitude Era (he was at Brian Pillman's house during the Pillman/Steve Austin confrontation, and I beleive was the one who actually said "Pillman's got a gun!"), while during it my interviews were often a highlight thanks to insults and taunts (courtesy of the Rock and his "hermaphrodite" comments, among others). I've worked as a manager (in the ECWA), and done some backstage work as well (producer, creative team member and talent scout for the WWF). I was involved in the internet early on in the WWF's time on there (host of "Byte This!"), and I don't use my real name (Kevin Foote).
You are Kevin Kelly!
Posted By: Dave (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 05:22 AM
You are Jimmy Cornett
Posted By: Guest#6543 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 05:35 AM
Nobody should beat Taker
Posted By: KnowYourRole (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 05:51 AM
"The Dudleyz are the WWF champions. The Hardys are the WCW champions. But I believe that, on that night, they have the wrong titles. The Dudleys look to me to have the WCW titles, and the Hardys the WWF ones.
I'm willing for someone to correct me here, but I believe that the two teams had the belts of their ‘sides' rather than the titles they should have had."
you're totally right, but no there was never any real explanation given for this. they just had the wrong belts, may have just beeen a botch.....
Posted By: me (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 06:08 AM
Sorry to those who picked Sean Waltman, you are wrong. The right answer is Raven. And I assure you that you don't want to doubt my knowledge on wrestling or you will just end up looking very foolish.
So, yeah, Raven. First one to get it right, thank-you.
Posted By: Guest#7685 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 06:29 AM
I'm not anti-cena (or uncle) or a smark. But surely having cena do the 'impossible' and end the streak would really annoy a large percentage of fans. By the time this comes around (maybe 2 years) a lot of Cena fans will have grown up a bit and the anti-cena reaction will at its peak. Having him beat Taker would really cause "This is b*llshit" reaction.
Having anyone end the streak would be bad for business - its similar to when Warrior beat Hogan. After a while Hogan got a bigger emotional reaction (I'm the fallen victim and something magical has just gone) than Warrior did.
Anyone beating Taker will instantly get Xpac heat.
After all, if someone has been incredibly succesful at something people love - who wants to be that guy who ends it and takes over straight away?
Posted By: Total Thuganomics (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 06:32 AM
Who am I? I'm currently part of a ‘major' American Indy or two,
ROH AND LUCHA LIBRE USA
although I'm better known for my time in the big leagues.
WWE
During that time, I was involved in a major angle that helped begin the Attitude Era,
THE AUSTIN-PILLMAN ANGLE IN WHICH PILLMAN PULLED A GUN
while during it my interviews were often a highlight thanks to insults and taunts.
SPECIALLY WHEN THE ROCK CALLED ME A HERMAPHRODITE
I've worked as a manager, and done some backstage work as well.
IN ECWA
I was involved in the internet early on in the WWF's time on there,
HOSTING "BYTE THIS"
and I don't use my real name.
LAST NAME IS FOOTE
Who am I?
I AM KEVIN KELLY
Posted By: NAILZ (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 07:12 AM
regarding the WCW tag titles
The Hardyz won the WCW Tag Title from Booker T & Test in Oct 2001 but they lost the belts to the Dudleyz a few weeks later.
The Hardyz would then win the WWF tag titles from Booker & Test (again) at the begining of Nov 01.
That would set up the Unification Steel Cage Match at Survivor series. so the Hardyz are wearing the right belts.
The grapics during the entrances on the video are wrong. someone in production messed up
Posted By: The Undead (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 08:07 AM
Taker should retire undefeated at mania.
If you think people hate Cena now, you go ahead and book HIM to be the guy that breaks the streak.
I can't even imagine the hate he would get
Posted By: Guest#5586 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 08:14 AM
M Punk is so anti PG. he curses and everything. he the best in the world. and no CM Punk aint ripping off jericho..
Posted By: Guest#3432 (Guest) on February 07, 2012 at 11:03 PM
I'm guessing you're a 12 year old who thinks saying 'ass' is cool and edgey?
Posted By: Guest#3742 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 01:13 AM
you are wrong. i am 23 and you are a troll.
Posted By: Guest#2243 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 08:43 AM
You are either Kevin Kelly or Jim Cornette.
Posted By: The Folster (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 08:46 AM
Simple: you make the young superstar sign a contract that has a huge buyout clause, so that he can't legally leave for a few years. Then have him beat Taker and papoosh, superstar.
Posted By: asda (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 09:06 AM
"But mostly it's because I write this column based on length, and by leaving in the long, rambling needless paragraphs I get there so much quicker. Because I'm a lazy bitch."
Dude, you are so my hero right now.
Posted By: Comment Board Poster (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 09:45 AM
Regarding indies paying wrestlers, a local indie gets about 200-300 fans per show. As Sforcina said, the students do all the grunt work and pull security duty for free. The talent (wrestlers, valets, managers) each get $20 a night, no matter where they are on the card. Most of the money the indie makes is on concessions, shirts and the money the students pay to go to the school. There's not a lot of profit. But, everyone involved does it more for the love of wrestling than the love of money.
Posted By: Comment Board Poster (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 09:52 AM
CM punk is ripping off every main heel, but that's how the industry goes. he really is just playing the "I'm better than everyone" heel character that EVERY heel plays
Posted By: Guest#0123 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 09:57 AM
Kanyon revealing himself as Mortis doesn't quite work, because he wasn't actually wrestling as Kanyon. He came through the crowd as a 'fan' and beat the shit out of Raven multiple times, then at Slamboree (1998?) after he lost to DDP, Raven was handcuffed to the cage by a riot squad member, who revealed himself to be Mortis, who THEN unmasked to reveal himself as the fan who had been destroying Raven and the Flock.
I love that storyline. It 'sort of' counts, but the method is very roundabout. Also, the chair shot he gives Raven is one of the most brutal I've ever seen in wrestling.
Posted By: Banz (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 10:10 AM
You are Harvey Whippleman
Posted By: Rob Essex (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 10:17 AM
Cmpunk Is one of the few reasons ppl still watch imo.Jericho had one good heel run left and he did it..they shouldn't resign him anymore..he had a very nice career but he's taking away time from the young cats...just like hbk flair and taker were doing..He's the designated "old guy" now for them.
Posted By: MacDollarz. (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 11:15 AM
Not sure how CM Punk claiming to be the best int he world is a copy of Chris Jericho. For decades any wrestler (or boxer) who is in contention for a title makes that claim.
Its part of the act, part of the sales pitch. Who wants to see a match featuring someone who only claims to be 'pretty good'. Humility does not increase anticipation.
Sure they phrase it differently
Flair was 'the man'
Hart was ' the best there is, was, will be'
Michaels was 'the showstopper'
Sid was 'the ruler of the world'
I forget the phrase Savage and Vader used.
But its the same comment 'I'm the best, I'm gonna beat you, You can't beat me' etc etc
Posted By: Guest#6623 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 11:27 AM
If taker has more than one more match left in him, i'd like to see him go against the rock next year.
nothing against Kane, but he and Taker just don't produce good matches, and ever since the edge match, all of undertakers WM matches have been really high quality.
Posted By: WrestlingsOK (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 11:30 AM
There is only one man who can bring an end to 'The Streak'
.....Vince McMahon
sure it would be a clusterf*ck, and the outside interference would make the RR 94 casket match look clean. But the heat gained would surpass the screwjob and usher in a new era.
These things are cyclical, as the young fans grow.
Posted By: Guest#7764 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 11:44 AM
Taker needs to retire undefeated at WM or put over a younger talent.... giving the win to Cena would make the Streak a joke and worthless. Cena doesn't need any wins to get over, never mind the biggest win in WWE history(in kayfabe terms). If Taker loses to Cena his Streak will be forgotten and won't be nearly as special as if he remained undefeated or lost to someone that needed it.
Posted By: 420 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 12:15 PM
You are Jason Sensation?
Posted By: C.Drama (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 12:17 PM
How short memories are! Punk's SES was a ripoff of Raven's Flock. And his Best in the World a ripoff of the title wrestling fans gave Bryan Danielson.
Posted By: guest (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 01:52 PM
Undertaker is this generation's Andre the Giant. Cena is this generation's Hogan. They must inevitably meet. Hogan was already huge when he faced Andre, but that moment is what made him "Immortal."
FINALLY! Someone else gets the impact this match would have! This would be bigger(and more important historically) than Rock/Cena. Only this time, history needs to be reversed. Undertaker wins and retires UNDEFEATED at Wrestlemania.
IF The Undertaker is healthy and able to go, I think they stretch it out as far as they can at Mania. 25-0 has a beautiful ring to it! The fans will always cheer an Undertaker match at WM.
I do still like Mathew's idea about Taker retiring HHH this year and possibly Kane next year. I would say that Kane has a few more years left though. The Streak should NEVER be broken and it just isn't Wresltemania without The Undertaker! 20-0.
Posted By: I Mark For Undertaker! (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 02:46 PM
"Taker needs to retire undefeated at WM or put over a younger talent...."
He's never done that his whole career, why start now?
Posted By: Guest#5457 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 03:23 PM
At last people are starting to see that Punk is just another generic heel(with a stupid name). The only difference is that he's good at it
Posted By: Guest#5475 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 03:24 PM
I wish you people would stop saying "he trolled us". You do realise that "trolling" is an internet thing and doesn't actually apply to the real world don't you?
Posted By: Guest#9115 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 03:32 PM
If CM Punk IS ripping off Jericho I wish he'd hurry up and declare himself the master of the armbar already. They could fight over who's the best.
Posted By: Carlos (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 04:09 PM
"Taker needs to retire undefeated at WM or put over a younger talent...."
He's never done that his whole career, why start now?
Posted By: Guest#5457 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 03:23 PM
brock lesnar says hi.
the undertaker has no problem getting defeated at wm. he asked kane and randy orton to end his streak but they decined.
Posted By: Guest#0966 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 04:21 PM
wtf is the deal?
rey took a zip of water in an hour macth.
every other sport pepole drink all the time
Posted By: y316 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 05:52 PM
@ Guest#4775
You do realize that even those who at one point hated VKM, and even on 411mania.com have all admitted that VKM is good for giving people 2nd and 3rd chances. Of course the video's that WWE produce will add to this however the truth of the matter is he gave many a second chance when he really did not have too
Posted By: QuickOffice (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 06:19 PM
At this point, Undertaker's once in six months appearances don't have that appeal. He's so over at this point that he needs to lose to put superstars over. And having him wrestle only at mania defeats that purpose. Storylinewise, there's nothing left for him to give. I think he should just have a 5 star classic with Daniel Bryan at WM, win the world title and retire on that note!
Posted By: Aditya (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 06:40 PM
Howard Finkel announces The Dudleys as World Wrestling Federation Tag Team Champions and announces The Hardys as WCW World Tag Team Champions but they are both clearly wearing the wrong belts.
Knowing the Hardys like we do now they probably grabbed the wrong titles snuck off some where to do one last bump and didn't crawl out of their hiding place until they heard their music hit and by that time the Dudleys were already in the ring and were forced to go out there with something so they grabbed the other set of titles.
Posted By: Andre the Midget (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 07:38 PM
Actually Bischoff has said on numerous occasions that he never tried to put WWF out of business, nor did he really "want" to more than anyone else. And he said that if he was ever quoted as saying he wanted to put them out of business, it was just bravado, likely said to hype up the WCW team before a show.
He didn't want WWF out of business for the same reason WWF didn't want WCW out of business. It would cripple the industry.
Posted By: Guest#4852 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 07:59 PM
You are Val Venis
Posted By: A-ya (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 08:22 PM
I heard that when The Rock and Mick Foley fought at the Royal Rumble in 1999 that after the match The Rock never checked in on Foley and a real beef occured between the two. Did this really happen and when was it resolved.
Also do you know of any real life beefs that are currently happening in the WWE or TNA.
Posted By: dermac50 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 08:38 PM
See, my interpretation of Jericho's current character is that he's spoofing Larry Z. Remember a few years back when Larry was bashing Jericho for being unoriginal and ripping off Nick Bockwinkel with his suits and big words? Jericho's getting his revenge on Larry by making money off of his complaining!
Posted By: The Ethnic Squirrel (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 09:57 PM
I could see Orton or CM Punk getting the WrestleMania nod over Taker under the right circumstances. Cena is easily the most obvious choice when they decide it's time to end The Streak though. And it probably happens next year since Taker can't go much longer.
If they are holding out until WrestleMania 30 though, I'd like to see Taker in a MITB match or something. It gives McMahonagement a chance to give several upper card opponents the rub against Taker who probably wouldn't pass as legitimate Streak threats on their own (The Miz, Wade Barrett, Christian, Alberto Del Rio, Dolph Ziggler, Daniel Bryan, Kane again as a frenemy). The formula would also be very simple: put on a 15 minute spotfest while doing as much as possible to protect Taker, then Taker grabs the briefcase in the end to go 21-0. They could even have Taker cash in against Cena at the end of the night to plant seeds for WrestleMania 30.
Posted By: Guest#4532 (Guest) on February 08, 2012 at 10:10 PM
I don't really see a wrestler calling himself the best as copying. Legitimately, shouldn't that how every main event wrestler see themselves, at least in character. They may not say it, but doesn't Orton consider himself "the best"? Cena? The Miz?
Posted By: Carl (Guest) on February 09, 2012 at 09:50 AM
If someone were to end the streak they are going to have to be able to pull off one helluva' match considering previous Taker WM matches. If not were going to have a Seinfeldesque situation in which the ending is so poorly done that it puts people off of the entire series or matches in this case.
I'm not sure if Cena as you picked is capable of having a match of the calibre that everyone is gonna' expect Taker's last match to be. I don't want to hate on Cena but I'm just not sure he can do it.
Posted By: Tom (Guest) on February 09, 2012 at 11:30 AM
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