wrestling / Columns
Ask 411 Wrestling 10.03.12: Vince Sr, Tenay, Patriot, More!
This is Ask 411 Wrestling, and I have somewhat lost my voice. Oh, and I’m Mathew Sforcina, that too. I guess spending 3 days yelling and talking and carrying on takes it out of one’s voice. But I will survive, and since this is a written medium, there is no problem. Hell, you wouldn’t even know if I hadn’t said anything.
But then, how would I get sympathy then?
Still, it’s all good. As are Just Another God Damned Rasslin’ Show, 411mania’s podcasting, and Wrestling PodClash.
And, as always, Banner. I know I pimp it every week but… Come on, look at it!
411 on Twitter!
Me On Twitter~!
http://www.twitter.com/411mania
http://www.twitter.com/411wrestling
http://www.twitter.com/411moviestv
http://www.twitter.com/411music
http://www.twitter.com/411games
http://www.twitter.com/411mma
Backtalking
Missing Comments: With the snazzy new comment system, last week’s comments are, at time of writing, no longer attached. But I did get a copy sent to me. Not nearly enough love for my San Francisco line. But anyway, huzzah, although apart from Your Turn, there wasn’t anything I felt the need to address, since I’ve made my position on Russo clear enough (unless someone asks me to spell it out), so let’s talk about the new system.
It is indeed, as I just said, snazzy and awesome, and I highly encourage you to sign up and use your social media networking power to firmly establish me as overlord!
Oh, sorry, I mean, to share any of my work that you enjoy with your friends. Totally.
But yes, now it’s very easy to register with the site via Disqus, which is a popular thing anyway so you’ll have to register for it sooner or later, so why not do it now and be kewl?
Your Turn, Smart Guy…
Who am I? My home town, both in terms of where I was born and where I live, is pretty much the same as where I’m billed from. I have a few finishers, depending on where I’m wrestling, ranging from a submission to an impact to a parody. I once took a town name as part of my ring name, although my current name is part of my real name. I debuted in 2000, I was once part of a group of wrestlers with a number in the name and I’m an American Hero. Currently I’m working the indies (in one form or another). Who am I?
Even with the whole “comments now gone” thing, this is a first for the column, in my memory. No-one got it! Huzzah!
So then, here is Mathew ‘What sort of name is Andersonvilletown anyway?’ Sforcina with the answer!
Who am I? My home town, both in terms of where I was born and where I live, is pretty much the same as where I’m billed from. (Born and resides in LA, billed as from Hollywood)
I have a few finishers, depending on where I’m wrestling, ranging from a submission to an impact to a parody. (End Scene, Moustache Ride, Pedigree Double Underhook Facebuster)
I once took a town name as part of my ring name, although my current name is part of my real name. (Joey Hollywood, Ryan is my real middle name)
I debuted in 2000, I was once part of a group of wrestlers with a number in the name and I’m an American Hero. (Debuted Sept 1 2000, was part of the PWG 6, and teams with Karl Anderson to form The Real American Heroes.)
Currently I’m working the indies (in one form or another). Who am I? (Joey Ryan!)
So there.
Who am I? I debuted in the 80’s, and my first major gimmick name was a second attempt, since the first idea I had was too dark. I once beat Jerry Lawler for a title, I once scarred a man, and I also wrestled Steve Austin and Ric Flair in the same match. I was part of the long list of guys who didn’t get along with Eric Bischoff backstage, and Bob Backlund on camera. A man who was once part of a superb match teaming with a future world champion and against two guys who don’t normally have superb matches, I am who?
Questions, Questions, Who’s Got The Questions?
We begin with… Really? Wow, Maffew ladies and gentlemen!
Is that really Vince Snr in the new opener? If so, why does he look so different than he did in the old one?
Maffew is referring to the new WWE opening video signature.
The man in question appears to be at the 0:07 mark, inbetween Taker and Austin. And at first guess, it doesn’t exactly match the usual look we see of Vince McMahon Snr, like at the start of the famous Desire: History vid. (And hey, any excuse to post that one…)
However, I think that is happening here is simply that WWE has, in the past, used mostly newer photos, photos taken of Vince Sr. later in life, photos taken for magazines or at events, official photos. This new one, on the other hand, looks older, and much more casual and is, at a guess, possibly from Vince Jr’s private collection, it’s a personal effect. It is Vince Sr, but I couldn’t find the photo anywhere online, so private family photo the McMahons lent (possibly because WWE needed a photo they could use in HD and none of the ones so far used were viable) is my answer. But hey, anyone want to show me up before the great and all powerful Maffew?
JJ wants to talk Hogan V Flair, the Wrestlemania Main Event that never was.
Hi Matt,
Love the column, a real must-read every Wednesday. I had one quick
question for you. I know that when people bring up Wrestlemania 8 and
the Double-Main Event, you have often said that the reason that the
planned Hogan-Flair match-up did not occur was because they were not
drawing at house shows. (I believe that is what you have said,
anyway).
My question is: was there any build to these house-show matches? Were
Hogan and Flair feuding on TV at the time? It seems as though we can’t
really blame a lack of drawing on the two of them (despite the fact
that they’re gigantic names in the industry) if they weren’t really
meant to be feuding, right? Or should two such stalwarts be assumed to
be able to draw such mammoth crowds on name alone that the fact that
they couldn’t scared Vince?
Apologies in advance if you’ve already gone over this information too
many times; was just genuinely curious. Thanks as always for your
time.
Yeah, basically the match didn’t draw. JJ Dillon put it best in an interview a while back.
“You take risks. You would’ve thought it would’ve been a natural dream-match. And it didn’t have the box office sizzle that we all would assume that it would. And after a run that was disappointing in markets (like Tampa) where it should have done well and it didn’t… it’s like Vince (McMahon) said – that match got booked 5 years too late.”
But in terms of the booking, there was a build up, sure. The Hogan/Flair program run through the end of 1991 all the way up to the Royal Rumble, with Hogan fighting Ric Flair after Flair cost him the WWF title…
And then ended up costing it from him again a few days later when he got the title held up due to his interference.
The two then proceeded to have matches all across the country from then right through to the Rumble. They then made the match, but after the announcement failed to get a swell of interest and hype, they changed their minds, and the rest is history.
But yeah, with a somewhat hot reason to feud, AND the fact that this was Hogan V Flair, the fact that it wasn’t a red hot house show seller led to Vince getting cold feet.
Chris wants to talk about what we at home don’t see.
I have a question I’ve been meaning to ask for awhile now. I’ll focus exclusively on Raw since Smackdown is taped. There’s a lot of times where a wrestler will come out to his music right before they go to commercial and when we get back from commercial he’ll be standing in the ring music still playing. Some of the longer commercial breaks are 3-4 minutes so does he just stand there with his music playing or does he cut a promo and then they hit the music again? And if its the former then how do they keep the crowd from shitting on Cult of Personality etc. once its playing through for like the second or third time?
Depends on the wrestler. If they are face, they may well just stand there, or at least play to the crowd for a bit. Heels will tend to grab a microphone and then do a promo to antagonise the crowd, perhaps referring to various local sporting teams.
Of course, if the wrestler hasn’t come out, then there’s a whole lot of other things they do, play commercials for their own stuff, shoot out T-shirts, do kiss cam or sign things, or even just take the time to gee up the crowd a bit.
But yeah, sometimes they cut the music, other times they don’t. Depends on the length of the break and how well received the wrestler involved is.
Kurt goes all James Lipton on us.
Been reading 411 since the 90s, always loved this column.
Only one question for you,
Do the major league wrestlers so to speak take any kind of speech classes? Is it all trial by fire or does Vince and or Dixie require their stars to go to some classes? Speaking in front of millions has to be nerve wracking, as well as speaking in their public appearances.
thanks,
Some wrestlers do take acting training, sure, but it’s not a requirement. I’ve heard the occasional story of wrestlers like Rhyno and Big Show taking acting. And some wrestlers have acting backgrounds, such as off the top of my head Concrete Davidson…
And some guy called Massive… Some letter or something. He’s done some acting supposedly. Like playing Fezzik at University is a big deal or something…
That said, A) WWE does have promo classes at tapings and the like, guys do get lessons at talking during their training and the like, and B) I fully support Lance Storm’s idea that when wrestlers are injured, WWE should pay for them to attend acting classes.
Squid asks about managers.
Mat,
Great work and all of that – this really is the only one on this site
that I read on a weekly basis. My question will probably make me look
like quite the mark, but oh well. Regarding managers in the past, was
the concept merely superficial (only managing on TV and such) or was
there more to it. Did managers ever actually manage the careers,
finances, etc. of their wrestlers? Thanks.
Some did, some didn’t. Guys like Paul Ellering and JJ Dillon did indeed work more as full time managers, they would indeed handle everything both in the ring and outside it, Ellering would book the Road Warriors tickets, handle their money and the like, and Dillon would do most of the driving and also handle bookings and the like.
But then you have guys like Bobby Heenan, who tells a story about Missing Link. Heenan had just begun to manage Link, and he got a call from Link, asking Heenan to meet him at the airport at 9am. Bobby asked why, and Link said that he needed Heenan to talk to the airline people, he had to translate, Link couldn’t break kayfabe and speak English. Heenan replied that he was Link’s manager from the moment Link walked through the curtain through to the moment he walked back through the curtain, no more. So it depends on the manager, some do, some don’t.
Mark asks more about The Iron Sheik.
Hi dude
Not going to kiss ass like all these sycophants do, although I do enjoy reading this article each week.
My question is about everyone’s favourite medicine man, the Iron Sheik.
Having seen many of his crazy shoot interviews etc… it is often mentioned, (usually by the Sheik himself), that he has won an olympic medal and is the “real olympic champion”. However, I had looked on various online profiles and even the olympic medal record and find no mention of Hossein Khosrow Vaziri. Did he actually win a medal or even compete in an olympic games? Is this just further gimmick? I find it astonishing, (if he does have any olympic success), that the WWF would not mention it in their TV, especially considering how they promoted Patera, Henry and Angle’s olympic achievements; or lack there of.
Cheers in advance for the answer/attempt to find an answer and if you don’t put this question in your column I will have no choice but to put you in the camel clutch, break your back, FUCK you in the ass and make you humble!! haha, that should be trademarked and put on a t-shirt!!
I’m kinda surprised he hasn’t done that actually, put out t-shirts.
Anyway, Sheik may have been involved in Olympic wrestling, but he never actually competed in an Olympics, let alone win a medal. He entered competitions to try sand qualify for the 1968 Iranian Olympic Greco Roman wrestling team, but he did not qualify. And then he helped train Olympic US teams in the early 70’s. But no, he did not compete, nor win a medal at any Olympic games. Sheiky baby is, in this case, lying.
Shocking I know.
Wakka asks about a whole lot of things.
Konnichiwa Mathew!
Question #1
We have seen such WWE guests as Jimmy Kimmel and Jay Leno on the
shows. But both Sheamus and The Miz has appeared on Conan O’Brien
recently, they even named a FCW wrestler Conor O’Brien. So how come
Conan hasn’t been a guest since he has such a huge bunch of internet
fans following his “Team Coco”?
Timing mainly. Conan films his show the day of broadcast, so he needs to be in LA on Mondays and Tuesdays, so he could only turn up, logistically, on a Raw or SD that was being taped in LA. And Conan has other engagements, you would have to book something well in advance, especially given that if Conan was to perform in some form, he’d need a lead up given his other work. Plus Conan on an NBC affiliated network… Might cause problems there.
But Conan is a very busy guy, and so WWE and he may just be unable to work out a deal, and since Conan isn’t part of the same media family and thus cross-promotion isn’t an option, such a deal is unlikely to be reached.
Question #2
When was the last time someone used a pet as part of it’s gimmick
and/or entrance? I know that Triple H almost got a big horse for
entrance last Wrestlemania
On the major stage, I believe the answer may well be my favourite answer, Tara. Tara had, for a while, a pet tarantula named Poison.
OK, seriously, I’m beginning to believe that everything that could ever exist is on youtube…
But yeah, that appears to be the last one on the big leagues. I’m happy to be proven wrong, and/or to wait for Team Hell No to get a pet Goat called Katie…
Question #3
Is it possible that Ric Flair will resign with WWE after his Hall of
Fame-induction along The Four Horsemen?
Shows how old this is. I think once all the legal issues are taken care of, you might see Flair back in the WWE in some form or another, but I doubt it’ll be a long term, on camera deal. A legends contract, sure. As a wrestler/manager, no.
But then, that sort of thing is why people love Puro. I mean, can you imagine any of the Japanese wrestlers doing that sort of thing, appearing in stupid skits? Can you imagine Misawa, or Kawada, or Kobashi singing and dancing? No? Of course not. After all, you don’t have to.
And here’s a PSA.
Pat has a couple of questions.
Hey Mat,
Love the column. I have 2 totally unrelated questions this week :
1. When someone is in a submission, sometimes they do that long, dramatic crawl to the ropes or whatever, to break the hold. It’s one thing if its a sharpshooter or walls of jericho, because those moves stretch you, and you can withstand being stretched for a while. But something like the ankle lock, how are we supposed to believe that someone will withstand having their ankle twisted and breaking just to break the hold? Same with the Anaconda vise or Yes Lock. Are we supposed to believe the victim is not breathing or is ok with his arm being ripped out of the socket during his attempt to break the hold? Certain submission moves should be a tap out immediately kind of situation. I know it’s for match psychology, but they at least could make it seem like Angle doesn’t have the lock on properly or something so its not at its full effect.
Yes, you are meant to believe that wrestlers are willing and able to absorb the pain and torque in an effort not to lose the match. I mean, while the ankle lock is pushing on the ankle, it’s rarely, if ever, said outright that Kurt is attempting to break the ankle. In an submission hold, unless the angle involved is that the guy involved is out to injure people, submission holds are meant to incapacitate via pain or pass out. It’s part of the deal, that wrestlers are competing to win the match, but not deliberately trying to injure their opponents. Unless they are, in which case they are outcasts and hated by all.
It’s the same logic as to why you don’t see piledrivers and germans much in WWE, or guys just don’t pull guns in no DQ matches. Wrestlers have a gentleman’s agreement not to deliberately injure each other. And so when Kurt is yanking on the ankle, he’s pulling as hard as he can but not in a direction to injure.
2. Why doesn’t WWE show credits at the end of the show? They’ll be the first to say its entertainment, so why not list writers, directors, producers etc at the end of the show? It makes them seem like they’re trying to come off as a legit sport, with just their copyright stamp at the end.
Thanks
WCW did for a while have them on some shows.
But there are two main reasons why WWF doesn’t have credits. On one level, while WWE does think of itself as entertainment, as a TV show, it is still sports entertainment, and even WWE knows that putting credits up during the show is a little too much leaning on kayfabe. There is a time and place for admitting that wrestling is a show. During the show is not that.
But the main reason is due to unions. If you go back to old movies, they don’t have many credits, they’d list the main people and that’s it. And then unions began to complain, and so eventually everyone involved in the film gets a credit. Which is fine, I believe that that is fine and makes sense. But Vince isn’t covered by those same unions, so he doesn’t have to show the names of people involved. And so if he can get away with more time to sell PPVs and merch, awesome.
Craig asks about a famous theme.
Secondly, I almost fell out of my chair when I watched the Del
Wilkes/Bret Hart link & heard the Patriot coming out to………Kurt
Angle’s entrance theme! So I’m going to cleverly use this to attempt
to jump the queue & sneak a question in. Generally a new wrestler is
given a generic theme until they catch fire (The Rock comes to mind,
as well as Cena’s first match also linked this week). Can you find
any other instances of that theme being used before it stuck to Kurt?
Kurt was brought in as a reasonably big deal from the start, so I
always assumed they made up that theme just for him. Seems weird to
give him something that had been floating around in Jim Johnston’s
cast-offs for a few years.
Cheers
Yeah, that theme did pop up at least two more times prior to it being used for Kurt. WWE does like to reuse music where possible, after all, it’s cheaper to reuse a theme that you own rather than write a new one. ‘The End’ and ‘Deadly Games’ both turned up multiple times.
… I still love Deadly Game. That is an awesome song.
Anyway, as for The Patriot’s theme that would eventually become Kurt’s music lock, stock and red white and blue barrel, Team USA came out to it at Survivor Series 97…
And Sgt. Slaughter used it for his Boot Camp match with Triple H at DX: IYH.
So yeah, it got used a couple times.
My Damn Opinion
Mike starts us off with a numbers and cost question.
How many dollars from each ppv buy does wwe actually keep? Wouldn’t it make sense, in your own damn opinion, to do a show (lets say summer slam for test purposes) on NBC kinda like the superbowl? Promote the hell out of it, make it an actual ppv quality show not some old school saturday night main event type deal, and use it to expose a larger audience to the product. Not sure how tv deals like that work but I gotta assume the advertising would be pretty big money. Im sure the audience would be alot bigger then any ppv or raw episode. I mean they will still have the revenue from the live gate and merchandise so it wouldnt be that big of a risk would it? What say you?
Prag!
Oh, wait, he’s not around any more. Dammit.
Anyway, for any PPV, WWE gets exactly half the money you pay. If you buy a PPV for $50, WWE gets $25, the cable companies get $25. They keep half, minus the costs for putting the PPV, and plus all the stuff they get at any live event, gates, merch sales and the like, plus DVD sales, although that number is counted in WWE Home Video rather than PPV revenue.
As for the Free Per View, it is a HUGE risk that doesn’t have enough of a pay off to be viable. Wrestlemania (which I admit isn’t the best comparison) makes a bit over $30 Million in cash for WWE, and somewhere between $6 and $10 million in profit. Even if you halve that for another PPV, you’re looking at let’s say $15 million for $3 million in profit, which is very roughly what I could find.
Now, if you put on a PPV quality broadcast, you need the same amount of costs associated with a PPV, so the amount of money you need to spend is about the same, with any offsets eaten up by the media blitz. So WWE would be spending $10 million on one show. And so you’re looking for a broadcast partner willing to pay about that amount of money for one three hour show. Or rather, you need NBC/Universal to do it, since in the contracts WWE can’t put wrestling onto any network outside the NBC/Universal family without NBC giving them the OK. And I don’t see NBC giving WWE millions and millions for one show, for ratings that, while much higher than a Raw show, would still suck for broadcast TV.
But I’ll admit that I’m not a businessman. But I do remember reading Prag basically making this argument. I’ll see if I can dig it up and/or find his email if people want an actual expert opinion here.
Joshua asks about a specific PPV.
I want to ask you about the pay per view match between Sting and Jeff Hardy. The one that lasted only 2 minutes or so. What was TNA thinking by sending Hardy out and having the main event of their PPV last about as long as a RAW Divas match? What if Hardy decided he wants to jump off the top rope and end of breaking Sting’s arm or something?
There is some confusion as to how and what the timing of the problem was. Some reports say that Hardy was fine right up until about the time he was due to turn up to the match, at which point he was found in no condition to perform. Other sources said that he turned up very late, right before the match, in no condition. In either case, the point seems to be that TNA didn’t know Hardy was going to turn up like that until right before the match was due to begin. Thus Bischoff, at the Gorilla position, came out to ‘announce’ the rule change and have a chat to the two men.
As for why the match was so short, it was for the very reason you said. Sting and/or Bischoff made the call on the basis that he wasn’t able to trust Jeff, so they ended the match ASAP. Probably more that Bischoff told Sting to make it quick, and then Sting went super-quick.
How about this: Hardy get’s “jumped” before the main event so
So yes, the personal criticism is not totally justified, but the dislike of his commentary is, if that makes any sense.
7) As an extension, I don’t know much about Schiavone’s run in the sport. Did he get involved with booking or any other aspect, or was he straight commentary?
He did have some input in booking at times, yes. He was part of the ad hoc booking team put in place by Jim Herd at the end of 1990 after Ole Anderson was fired as booker, Tony working with Jim Ross, Kevin Sullivan, and Ric Flair. When Dusty came back in as booker in 1991, he went back to announcing.
And then Tony came this close to becoming head of WCW, as in early 1993, Bill Watts was demoted and then quit from WCW, as his booking and attitude was deemed to be unacceptable. And most everyone at the time assumed that Schiavone, as lead announcer, as one of the longest serving employees and as a guy with some experience, he was the expected choice as booker of WCW. But then this third string guy called Eric Bischoff got a meeting, and gave a very professional, business like pitch. And so Turner went with him.
And thus history is made…
8) If you had to hire a retired (or semi-active) wrestler to do color for a start-up promotion (who is not currently doing commentary anywhere), who are two or three names that you would go to?
Again, love your column, Thanks,
JBL.
Damn.
Well, Piper would be a good first point of call, since he’s done it before, although he is somewhat… rich in years and may not be able to handle it.
Does working for WWE count as being ineligible? Because Road Dogg, if he isn’t DQed for hosting Are You Serious, would probably be acceptable. (I forget, what was the verdict on Brad Armstrong’s work on ECW?)
But I think, overall, the guy I’d go to? Raven. He has experience and he was AWESOME as Johnny Polo…
And Raven, today, has the creativity and authority to be able to explain a move or a wrestler’s logic. If Raven talks about how painful a move is, I’d buy it. So yeah, Raven would be my pick. Raven and… Hell, Stevie. Now THAT would be a team.
And on that interesting idea, I bid you goodnight, and remember, sign up to leave comments and be awesome and all. Until next time, sign up, and comment.
