Ask 411 Wrestling 04.17.13: Flair’s Hair, Savage’s Apologies, Vince’s Generosity, More!

To the person or persons responsible for what happened in Boston, I hope you suffer the worst possible retribution possible. A life time sentence with a perpetually looped tape of Hornswoggle ‘Comedy’ in your cell.

Hello and welcome to Ask 411 Wrestling. I am Mathew Sforcina, and obviously beyond that ‘joke’ just there I’m not really sure a light-hearted funny intro isn’t going to get me into trouble. So let’s just get this show on the road.

Got a question? Email it to [email protected] why don’t you?

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This banner on the other hand (which I still use because it’s awesome still) has lots of involvement from me.

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Backtalking

Finding Memphis Wrestling: I tend to joke that I’m just a mouthpiece for Google, but in this case, I can honestly say that apart from websites that have torrents (which I won’t link to but you should be able to find easily enough if you want) Google is your best bet. There’s a few different accounts but they move and shift and become lost and what have you. What is here today…

Might well be gone tomorrow.

Your Turn, Smart Guy…

I’m a wrestling move. I’ve been used as a finisher by many wrestlers, including many world champions. I have many variations with different names, but in my original version I’m almost non-existent now. In an ironic twist, a certain former world champion severely injured another former champion using me and later that former champ was severely injured by another wrestler using me on him. Another former world champion used me to win a world title for the first time and during his reign I was named by the same name a current wrestling finisher is called now. I’ve been used in movies, music albums, drinks and even sexual positions. Who am I?

Most everyone got this right, but here’s the answer given by the question asker (Maravilloso everyone!), but yeah, well done all.

I’m a wrestling move. I’ve been used as a finisher by many wrestlers, including many world champions (Mad Dog Vachon, Nick Bockwinkel, Bret Hart, Jerry Lawler, etc.). I have many variations with different names, but in my original version I’m almost non-existant now. In an ironic twist, certain former world champion (Stone Cold Steve Austin) severely injured another former champion (Masahiro Chono) using me and later that former champ was severely injured by another wrestler (Owen Hart) using me on him. Another former world champion used me (Lex Luger) to win a world title for the first time and during his reign I was named by the same name a current wrestling finisher is called now (Attitude Adjustment). I’ve been used in movies, music albums, drinks and even sexual positions. Who am I?

THE PILEDRIVER.

DB has this week’s question.

I’m a Pay Per View event that did not always take place on Pay Per view. My main event this particular year was a match between competitors that main evented the year after. I featured 3 championship matches, one of which saw a title change hands. I also featured a squash match and a screwjob finish. In addition, my card saw 2 gimmick matches, consisting of participants in the promotion’s main storyline at that time. The event also saw appearances from wrestlers that were part of another promotion. What am I?

Questions, Questions, Who’s Got The Questions?

Taha starts us off with some topical questions.

Hi Matt fellow Aussie here. Really respect your work. I’m just getting used to reading columns on 411 mania and you can say that I’m a new member of the IWC. I was just wondering if you can shed some light on a few random questions. Thanks in advance

1. Following the Randy Orton v Shamus match on Raw (the night after WM) and the wackiness of the crowd which I loved by the way, people kept claiming that the WWE should have called an audible? What does that mean?

Calling an audible is when you change the booking during the show/match. Basically if something isn’t working, if the fans are shitting on the match, you can call an audible and go right to the finish to get out of there. Or, if someone is injured in a 4 way match, you might call an audible and change the finish, put someone else over. Or, it can be smaller, if some spot is no longer possible (a table broke too early or something) you might call an audible to change the spot.

Basically it’s when the boss/talent change the plan in the ring due to outside factors. So in the Orton/Sheamus match, some people think that they should have just cut their losses and send Big Show out early to end the match. That would have been an audible.

2. What’s a Mark/Smark?

Depends on who is talking. The terms mean different things to different people. The old school definition of a mark was, if a fan was using the term, it meant someone who thought that wrestling was real. Wrestlers using the term, it meant a fan. All fans. But then came the ‘smart mark’, which evolved to Smark, which when used by a wrestling fan meant someone who knew it was a show but enjoyed it nevertheless. Wrestlers didn’t use the term.

However, now the terms have evolved slightly and are slightly more murky. It means more different things to a wider variety of different people. However, the general consensus is that a smark is, well… The IWC. Guys who love Japanese wrestling, who worship CM Punk, who rant about the PG era, the people who boo Cena, anyone reading this column. Mark is every other fan.

Basically if you read this, you’re a smark. If you get your Tout on Raw, you’re a mark. According to the common usage of the terms.

Michael talks Wrestlemanias past and breaking holds.

I know it’s been written a million times about how the WWF screwed up by not having Flair-Hogan at mania. My question is, how did the whole Sid-Hogan match come to light? I remember a press conference to announce Flair’s opponent at Mania with the top 5 contenders sitting there. It was Hogan, Sid, Savage, Piper, and im blank on the 5th guy so fill me in please, and Hogan was announced as the winner. Sid went crazy. Then all of sudden it seemed Hogan dropped out of the match and decided to wrestle Sid. Was it that cut and dry? Was Hogan that mad at Sid that he decided to give up a title shot at Mania? Or was there a bunch of attacks on Hogan from Sid after this press conference? Either way, a guy giving up a title shot at Mania seems pretty dumb.

Hogan, Sid, Savage, Piper and The Undertaker were the 5 men under consideration to face Ric Flair at Wrestlemania 8.

And then there was indeed a press conference where they announced, much to Sid’s surprise, that Hogan would face Ric Flair at Wrestlemania 8.

Sid would then cut promos after this saying that Tunney was showing favouritism, and that Hogan couldn’t beat Flair on Hogan’s best day, and that he couldn’t beat Sid on Sid’s worst day. But then he apologised, and Hogan accepted that, and on Saturday Night’s Main Event, when he teamed with Hogan against Flair and Undertaker. Sid then bailed on the match, although Hogan and Sid ended up winning when Flair got DQed for pushing a ref.

Yep, Hogan wouldn’t job to the WWF Champ and The Undertaker even after he was turned on.

But because Beefcake helped Hogan out after Sid bailed on him, Sid then attacked and destroyed the Barber Shop, and then went on a rampage and beat up a bunch of the lower card faces. So Hogan stepped up and took him on for the good of the WWF, he wrestled Sid in an attempt to contain him. World Title shots would come late, for the good of the WWF, he had to stop Sid.

Now yes, it was a bit of an ass pull, but there was some logic behind it once they went that way.

Also, at the question about moves being kicked out of, got me thinking. And it got me thinking because of clip you had on the same column. Was Luger’s torture rack ever broken or did I guy ever not submit? I’m not talking about interference or the ref being knocked out so he couldn’t call it, but in the context of a match, did anyone ever kick out of the torture rack?

Thanks as always for answering my questions!!!

Yeah, at least once from memory. And it’s a match that sticks in the memory, as it was the Flair Protest match, Great American Bash 91, for the vacant WCW World Title, Luger V Barry Windham, steel cage match.

Barry kicked off the cage wall and flipped out of the Rack, and the match continued. As for someone doing it in a regular match, I’m sure someone did, but I can’t find one immediately. Perhaps a reader will know.

Next up is BIRDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDMANNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!

*cough*

Sorry. Birdman.

Hello, Massive Mathew, and happy belated birthday. Question about the 1987 Survivor Series: why did Ted DiBiase not compete on a team? Sure, they showed a DiBiase vignette (which was really just a amalgam of other DiBiase vignettes from earlier that year), but why didn’t he compete? (And I guess I mean in “reality” and in “storyline.”)

Here’s a guy who, within a month or so, is going to be feuding with Hulk Hogan. And by WrestleMania, he’s going to be in the main event. (Heck, if you believe the rumors, he was penciled in to win the WrestleMania IV tournament at one point.) So it seems weird he didn’t even appear at the Survivor Series, since they obviously had big plans for him.

I get that maybe they wanted to protect DiBiase. They couldn’t have him lose to anyone, precisely because they had big plans for him. But maybe have him walk out on his team (like Bad News Brown always did), or have him force Virgil to wrestle for him, or… something. In my opinion, Ted would have lent some much-needed legitimacy to the Honky Tonk Man’s team. After all, was the world clamoring for more Danny Davis or Ron Bass?

Thanks for helping me with this, because it always bothered me…

Shows how long some of these have been sitting there, we’re almost up to my birthday again (April 23rd. Send Tara pictures.).

Anyway, he was actually on the show, sort of, with a videotaped segment about how instead of there, wrestling, trying to survive, he was off relaxing, having the day off.

This filled in the time from the intermission of the show, but it also made Ted look like an entitled prat, since he wasn’t there, wrestling, he was instead off enjoying himself, the bastard. It helped establish his persona, and would lead into him trying to buy the WWF Title later on. After all, the entire point of the build was that he was unable to beat Hogan for the title, so anything to help make him look more like a bitch was to be done.

So yeah, you can argue that he could have helped a certain match, for the character they were going for, they decided to instead give him the night off since it fit more with the character. Ted would have had to have captained a team, and there was no point him doing so at that point.

Justin asks about wrestlers with conditions.

I was just wondering if you could find any professional wrestlers that were diabetic. I heard that Gorilla Monsoon had diabetes but I feel like there has to be more out there.

Well, I know of at least two Australian ones who are diabetic, but in terms of guys on the big stage and active, none are publicly diabetic. Kamala is currently dealing with the disease, which has claimed both of his legs alas. Raven currently has the disease as well (and possibly Bobby Eaton, he claimed he had a ‘touch’ of it). If you include deceased wrestlers (and don’t push for details as to when the disease first appeared) you can also add Stu Hart, Uncle Elmer, Giant Gonzales, Mr. Hito, Jos LeDuc, Tojo Yamamoto, Martín Karadagian, “Rapid” Ricky Romero, Haystacks Calhoun and Wahoo McDaniels to the list.

See, most wrestlers who get diabetes get it after they retire, when a life of high/hard living on the road catches up to them, due to their lifestyles, years of being overweight, or perhaps certain drugs. So it’s possible that near the end of their careers they were getting there, but wrestlers who had it before or early on in their career, it’s hard to find evidence. No-one seems to want to be the face of it.

Well this was inevitable.

And this was incredible.

And this is… Uh…

Jeremiah has a good question.

Here’s a follow-up to the often-talked about Mankind title win that I’ve never really seen discussed. Given that this was the height of the Wars, why was such a big moment featured on a taped Raw? Surely they could have done so the night before on the live show, or built it for two weeks before the next live Raw. Seems like a gamble to let the word get out, unless that’s exactly what they were going for in order to pop a rating/draw WCW fans over (given Foley was a former wrestler of theirs).

That’s actually a good question. I do recall that WWF.com pushed the title win hard, they had an article up about it just after it happened, like when Angle won the World title on Smackdown, WWF did spoil it early on. So a calculated push to get the internet fans (for whom Foley was a hero) does make sense. Not so much the WCW fans, that doesn’t sound like WWF. (They probably thought WCW fans didn’t have computers.) But I’ve yet to see any actual logic said anywhere, so given that WWF did spoil it, we’ll go with the theory that they were hoping for a big buyrate by spoiling it themselves and go from there.

Jude is all over the place. But that’s ok.

Hi Mathew,

Great column as always last week.

I have a couple of questions that I can find answers to myself and was hoping you might help….

1) I don’t know much about the guy, but why did Dr Death Steve Williams take part in the Oklahoma skits in WCW?? Wasn’t he a close friend of JR? It such seems a bit odd he would take part in something that poked fun at his friend!

Well he was, but at the time, they were strained. See, Steve Williams was brought into WWF with the idea that the Brawl For All would set him up as a huge badass, which would lead to a run against Austin for the title. The problem was that they assumed that just because Williams was a legitimately tough guy (which he was), that he’d win the thing easy.

But shoot fighting is totally different to wrestling and is different to other sports. So they tossed a bunch of guys who were trained in one thing and expected them to be able to do something totally different. Injuries quickly came about, including Williams, because Bart Gunn had some experience in toughman contests. Although Williams got taken out because he tore his hamstring trying to stay mobile in the ring.

But because he was injured as his tough guy persona, such as it was to the fans, was screwed, WWF let him go. And Jim Ross was the guy who had to give him the news. This strained their relationship, apparently, and so he sat home, feeling angry and without a job.

So when WCW called and offered him a big pot of money in exchange for continuing the Heel Bodyguard role that he was doing in the WWF prior to his leaving, while parodying his ‘old friend’ who he wasn’t too thrilled with at the time, and add in the fact that JR told him it was cool (since he knew Williams had to earn a living somehow), Dr. Death came along. Although it wasn’t for that long, as it turned out…

2) Why was the character of Phantasio dropped so soon in the WWF? On the face of it, it looked like a perfect gimmick for them at the time. I would have thought he would have been used more as a comedy type match for that era.

… Holy crap, he made a return in 2012!!!

… That’s a hell of an assistant right there. Emphasis on the first syllable.

Anyway, the character was Vince trying to improve on the Spellbinder gimmick that he had used in Memphis in the USWA.

As for why it was dropped so soon, the reactions he got (or rather, didn’t get), were bad enough to justify dropping him. Sometimes you just know something isn’t working. The character just didn’t get over at all from Vince’s point of view, it seemed. No more, no less.

Shawn asks about Ric Flair’s hair.

Seriously.

I am a huge Ric Flair fan, so this is not an insult. For a while I have been wondering how a man can have long, full hair well after the age of 50 and then gradually start to lose it? Could it be possible he had extensions like Andre Agassi?

Possibly, but I think it’s more a side effect of hanging around Triple H and Evolution. See, Flair was pretty much just Flair throughout WCW and even when he came into WWF, his hair was (relatively) full and rich.

But then after he began to manage HHH and formed Evolution, he began to lose the hair, it go thinner. Now I’m not saying that he took anything illegal or anything…

(Insert a wink here perhaps, depending on your cynicism level.)

But living the high life with Evolution, and working harder than he had leading up to that point, it seemed to take it a little out of him, and his hair (and his general appearance) seemed to hit all at once in 2003. So while he might have had extensions that he then removed, I think it’s more likely he just hit the wall and then crashed on through it.

Ryan is looking for some logic in late 80’s WWF. Good luck…

I have a question regarding the inaugural Survivor Series in 1987:

One of the matches features Randy Savage and Ricky Steamboat on the same team, just eight months after their famous WrestleMania III battle. My question is: was there ever any sort of reconciliation on the air or were they just teamed together with no comment? I realize that Savage had turned face and in the world of 1980s wrestling that was really all the logic that was required for the two to unite, but it still seems like it would be awkward to not mention that one teammate had nearly killed another teammate by ramming a ring bell into his throat less than a year before.

The closest they got was in the lead up to Survivor Series, when Savage and the rest of the team was ringside for Steamboat’s IC title shot.

Basically the two made up due to mutual hatred of Honky Tonk Man, who lumped them together with Tito Santana as the guys he had surpassed. But no, there was no on air apology by Savage for nearly killing Steamboat.

Also, do you know if the WWF ever considered having them meet in the WrestleMania IV title tournament like they almost did? Would two faces going against each other have even been discussed or would it be flatly rejected without conversation? It seems like if the same situation presented itself today it would have been capitalized on. It also would have given even more strength to Savage’s title win if one of his four victories was against the man he lost a classic to the year before.

Thanks again.

No, they weren’t going to meet. You’re thinking too much like a modern day booker, back then you avoided face/face like the plague, and you certainly didn’t want to remind anyone that your World Champion tried to kill a man a year ago. Plus Steamboat was on his way out anyway, and so they didn’t want to give him a win or push him in any way.

Robert asks about heat and anthems.

Couple questions for ya.
Was there legit heat between Terry Funk and Gorilla Monsoon during Funk’s run in WWF in the mid-80’s?
Or was it just Funk being the crazy heel? I remember them having words a couple different times when Gorilla
was announcing Funk matches and one time Funk kicking Gorilla as he climbed back into the ring.

While anything is possible, I’ve never heard of the two of them having any heat. Both men were known as being nice guys, and not the sort to make too many enemies (everyone pisses off at least somebody, there is no such thing as the guy with no heat from anyone), and I really cannot think of or find anything on the two having heat. I think that Gorilla was just putting over Funk being wild and crazy.

My other question is: Did Nikoli Volkoff really sing the Russian National Anthem or was it a made up song?
It seemed like he sang the same words everytime but was it the real anthem?

It was indeed the real anthem. It’s a little hard to make out, given his voice and the boos, but it is the real song. There’s a story to that actually, as told by Freddie Blassie, in that it began in Mid-South, where Nikoli had tapes of the Soviet National Anthem, to be played before his matches. He had one, agent Grizzly Smith had the other in cast Nikoli forgot his (at which point he’d be fined $50). Then one night both of them forgot it. So, rather than both being fined, Nikoli said he’d sing it instead. He came out, apologized, said that Junkyard Dog had stole his tape, then sung the Anthem to much heat. And so Bill Watts continued it from then on.

My Damn Opinion

Taha is back.

3. Do you foresee The Undertaker dropping the deadman gimmick to wrestle his final matches in order to retire as a real man rather than as the deadman? The American Badass probably? Gimmick changes are crucial when wrestlers become boring and It seems as if he’s becoming more of a person in recent times with the passing of Paul Bearer and getting attacked by the Shield (almost). I know it will be an easy way to get him to retire as well as get inducted into the hall of fame

Not really, since the Dead Man gimmick is such a big party of the Streak, the character is so much larger than life. Plus Vince apparently hates that period of Taker’s career, and doesn’t want it mentioned if at all possible. I suppose if Vince were to leave before the Streak ended, maybe. But I think that Taker is in a unique case, he doesn’t need to be humanised at the end. Plus, making him human again would dilute the Streak ending, regardless of how it happened. Maybe AFTER the Streak was over, if it was broken and thus he became a man… But no, he’ll remain the Deadman until he hangs them up for good, I believe.

4. If you had to give up watching one show what would it be? Raw or Wrestlemania? By that I mean you can never watch the show again.

Wrestlemania. Most of it gets replayed on Raw afterwards anyway.

But yeah, Wrestlemania. Raw can have really good long term storytelling, you get surprising character development on Raw. You expect big things at Wrestlemania, when big things happen on Raw it’s more of a surprise. Plus I tend to dislike wrestling in a vacuum, I don’t like shows where I don’t know what’s going on. So I’d rather see the build up then miss the payoff at WM than see the payoffs without the build up.

5. And finally, what in the blue hell is a Paul Roma?

Thanks

A sad, sad excuse for a Professional Wrestler.

Kyle wants to talk turning heels.

Do you think a problem in WWE is how they are turning heels that are receiving babyface reactions? For example, when Stone Cold Steve Austin turned babyface, his character didn’t really change. The only thing he did differently is feud with heels. It seems like they had something going with Randy Orton, but it seems like they thought the fans liked just Orton and not the character he was portraying. It seems like when heels turn face these days, they go from being vile, cheating, and/or sadistic to these immortal, invincible, baby kissing babyfaces. Of course there are many other examples of this happening. Hell, it almost happens every time they turn someone; their character goes from an interesting, multi-layered one to this one-dimensional, hollow, oh-shucks babyface.

Well, yes and no. Yes, they have a problem with turning heels while keeping them interesting. But that’s just a part of the overall problem they have with faces at the moment. For whatever reason, WWE just can’t seem to create or maintain faces that resonate as good guys with the entire audience. Cena is the purest white of whites, half the audience hates him. Sheamus is a good guy, yet acts like a bully. Shades of grey is one thing, but the WWE seems to be missing the point. It’s similar to the Hogan era, where Hogan would, objectively, wrestle like a bad guy. He raked eyes, he beat on women, he used weapons, the lot. But everyone loved him. Nowadays the faces who act like Hogan get booed and the ones that don’t get booed even more.

But as for turning, you do need to adapt and change the character a little when you turn good or evil. A rule of thumb I have is that every bad guy should have one positive trait, and every good guy one bad one. Del Rio might have been an arrogant gold obsessed egotist, but he had a firm friendship. Sheamus is a good guy, but he does take liberties in the ring.

Every character has to be redeemable, and every character has to be able to fall. If you establish the traits when they begin, then you don’t need to invent them later on, it’s much more natural when you do emphasise them later on if they’ve been there all along.

Jude had a couple more questions as well.

3) While watching the Rise and Fall of ECW DVD, Vince said he was happy to help out this small promotion from Philadelphia. Why did Vince really do this? Was it to make WWF appear more edgy, build a relationship with ECW so they wouldn’t work with WCW or (i find this hard to believe) was he just helping out a small promotion??

Well now, this is one of those questions that only Vince himself knows. However, the general consensus is that Vince saw ECW as a useful tool, he saw that Heyman was, in many respects, like him, willing to risk all for his vision. But mainly, he saw ECW as a good feeder system. He saw that Heyman was great at coming up with gimmicks and storylines, and so in exchange for money, he had a place to send guys he didn’t need for seasoning, as well as a place where he could occasionally come in and get some new talent that had ready made gimmicks for prime time. It was a developmental program that he had a step back from, enough that he could take who he wanted but not be held accountable if something went bad.

At least, that’s the accepted version. Maybe he wanted a third dog in the race to nip at WCW’s heels, or he hoped that if ECW really took off he’d be able to control the new #2, who knows what he thought. But the accepted logic is that he wanted a pseudo-developmental league.

and finally

4) How much inside information does Dave Meltzer actually get?? When i listen to his podcasts and his appearances on other shows, he seems very vague and almost unknowledgeable about storylines etc. He has the reputation to get all this inside knowledge but I rarely hear of him predicting a storylines conclusion or of a wrestler joining another company etc.

I am not Dave Meltzer.

I’ll let the shock sink in for a moment.

Anyway, I think that Meltzer may not get quite as much info as he used to. In the old days, it seemed that half of the wrestlers in America would have him on speed-dial, whereas now many wrestlers have Twitter and Facebook and basically air their laundry there. So he may not get quite as much solid info as he once did. Plus, also, he covers MMA as well, so he’s no longer focused exclusively on Wrestling.

That said, I still respect him as he’s been around for a long time and he does do great research and he has a historical knowledge that is impressive. He’s moved, perhaps, from the front line reporting to more of the analysis and in-depth discussion.

And on that note of my passing judgement on a guy very much my superior, I bid you all good night, and see you all next week. Assuming I don’t just get drunk for my birthday and pass out…