411’s Buy or Sell Wrestling Edition 7.28.13: Hogan Saving the AWA, Warrior Getting a Bad Reputation, More

HELLO, THERE.
Welcome back to 411’s Buy or Sell: Classic wrestling edition! For those of you who were not blessed to follow the column during its earlier iterations, here’s the idea: I, the columnist, pose controversial or contentious points, and then your beloved 411 staffers battle it out like keyboard gladiators for YOUR benefit. Er, with words. It’s much like 411’s long-running Fact or Fiction column. The main difference is that BUY or SELL focuses on topics like pre-1997 mainstream pro wrestling, the U.S. Independent scene, Japanese Wrestling and pretty much anything else that isn’t mainstream wrestling (WWE or TNA). This allows for these areas to get a bit more press and for you, our loyal readers, to learn even more about the sport of professional wrestling.

Our questions will be built around a theme. This week’s theme involves the wrestling concept of “the Guy”, that strange and abstract figure whose magnetic presence holds together a wrestling promotion in an almost nuclear fashion. The concept has made its way onto mainstream wrestling programming; during his infamous “pipe bomb” promo, when CM Punk chastised WWE for John Cena’s decade-long moment in the spotlight, he was really bemoaning that no one else was getting the chance to be the Guy. Today we’re going to ask a few questions about guys who could have been the Guy, or should have been, or were, but not at the ideal time. We’ll also have a single question which doesn’t fit our theme of the week, but does involve classic wrestling in some way. All right? Good.

This week’s staffers are 411 bigshots Michael Benjamin, and, er, me. Let’s get started.

If not for his career-ending injury, Magnum T.A. could have been the NWA’s answer to Hulk Hogan; not just as a top babyface but as a mainstream star with crossover appeal (perhaps hosting Saturday Night Live and the like).

Michael Benjamin SELL: Magnum T.A. could have been the NWA’s answer to Hulk Hogan… but on a smaller scale. NWA was far too traditional to overcome the huge shift in the industry that revolved heavily on the entertainment aspect of the business. Magnum was an excellent wrestler, he was GREAT on the stick, but the NWA couldn’t have competed with the sheer popularity and momentum that the WWF was garnering. It’s more about circumstances than anything. It’s like when people argue about the best wrestler of all time. Some will say Flair and some will say Hogan. The fact of the matter is that Hulk Hogan was and is more of a household name than Ric Flair could ever have been due to his placement in the WWF. That’s obviously not a knock on Flair though. Magnum would have gone down in the record books as one of the best ever but not THE best, I’m sure the crossover appeal would have been there but again, I don’t think it would have been comparable to that of Hulks. Fast forward to when Hogan makes the jump to WCW now. Lets say Magnum is still there and kicking ass. He would have gotten the Flair treatment because (as far as I know) he didn’t have or want the political savvy that Hogan possessed. So in short, he could have been the Hulk Hogan of the NWA but he couldn’t have been the Hulk Hogan of the industry… like Hulk Hogan was. Ya know?

Matt O’Connell SELL: As much as I love Magnum TA (by which I mean Magnum PI), and as much as he was better than Hogan in so many objective ways, the one way he absolutely failed to match Hogan was in his appeal to kids. I mean, think about: Hogan’s namesake hailed from the four-color, child friendly world of comic books, while TA was named after a mustachioed, womanizing private detective. So, while Magnum probably could have become the NWA’s biggest star and their de-facto answer to Hogan, that wouldn’t have made him the Hulkster’s pop-cultural equal any more than it did for Sting or Ric Flair.

Many who were in the NWA at the time of David Von Erich’s death believe that David could have been a huge player in the organization for years to come. However, David would likely have followed the lead of many young grapplers and headed to the greener pastures of the WWF anyway.

Michael Benjamin BUY: David Von Erich was 6’7, 250 pounds, good looking, and he cut a great promo. He had some memorable feuds, most notably with Ric Flair. I can only imagine that plans were in place for him to be a big player in the NWA as his title victory was set in stone before he passed away. Fast forward to him potentially moving to the WWF now. I know that Vince would have wanted to snatch him up, as he was everything McMahon wanted in a wrestler. I can’t say for sure if he would have made the jump though. That’s a tough one. Theoretically, if he would have jumped, I could see him flourishing or ending up with a shit gimmick like the Red Rooster. Without a doubt though, he would have been a big name in the wrestling industry for years to come if not for his untimely death.

Matt O’Connell BUY: While I’m sure David would have eventually tried his luck in the WWF, I just don’t think he would have lasted too long. He had the size that McMahon always looked for in his main event talents, but he was cut from the traditional kind of cloth that was quickly fading in the 1980’s WWF. He was a grappler, which was simply not in vogue at that moment in time. McMahon would have tried, but probably given up on him after playing up his Texan origin didn’t pan out. He’d return to the NWA after a year or two, just like Flair, Windham, the Brain Busters, and Dusty Rhodes.

Verne Gagne’s decision not to put the AWA title on Hulk Hogan was the beginning of his company’s decline. Had he done this, the delicate tripartite arrangement of the AWA, NWA, and WWF would have survived the decade.

Michael Benjamin SELL: If Verne Gagne decided to put the AWA title on Hulk Hogan, I still don’t foresee the company surviving the decade. Hogan was making a name for himself in AWA and doing a great job with what he was given the opportunity to do there. The fact remains that Hulk Hogan doesn’t become a household name or a brand worth millions if Vince McMahon’s marketing and genius isn’t behind him. Even with a run as AWA World Champion, Hogan would eventually head to greener pastures. McMahon would still continue his slow take over of the industry with or without Hogan. I don’t think he could have taken wrestling by storm without Hogan like he did, but Vince was ruthless. He didn’t buy his father’s company to make friends. He wanted to change the industry and get the job done either way. I’m not sure that he could have created the huge boom period without Hogan though.

Matt O’Connell BUY: The WWF/NWA/AWA arrangement was always precarious, and was made all the more so by the introduction of cable. But if Gagne had pulled the trigger on a lengthy Hulk Hogan title run, and cut whatever deals he had to to keep the orange goblin around, he might have found that fans sometimes like a world champion who is under fifty. And so many of the AWA stars followed Hogan because the WWF was a place where younger wrestlers could be successful; but if the AWA could offer a similar atmosphere, then why go to New York and dress up as a lumberjack or whatever? Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying the AWA would have beaten the WWF, or even that they would still be around, only that they most likely wouldn’t have keeled over dead as soon as the calendar rolled over into 1990.

Vince McMahon, denied Hogan; would have been able to cultivate an equally popular champion from elsewhere on his/. not-inconsiderable roster.
Michael Benjamin SELL: Vince McMahon could have slotted multiple men as the face of the company, but I don’t think he could have created anything near the size and popularity of Hulkamania like I alluded to in my previous answer. Hulk Hogan was the right guy for the WWF at the right time. He’s lightning in a bottle. Rock ‘n’ Wrestling wouldn’t have happened, Wrestlemania could have flopped or potentially not happened, etc. I understand that all of that was Vince McMahon’s brainchild, but a lot of that era’s success stemmed from the sheer popularity of Hogan. I don’t believe that Vince could have strapped the proverbial rocket to any other wrestler with the same results. Much like Stone Cold and The Rock, these types of things happen naturally every time.

Matt O’Connell BUY: Hogan, in 2002, insisted he was more than the right (gay) guy at the right time; this is partially true. Vince McMahon is not a wizard; he couldn’t have turned “Outlaw” Ron Bass into a worldwide sensation. But he had so many potential megastars on his roster who never reached their full potential simply because Hogan was already occupying the main event. Should he have chosen to book them as such, Randy Savage, Roddy Piper, or Paul Orndorff could have been his standard-bearers and champions in just the way Hogan was. And the movies would have been much better, too.

And now, a brief intermission before the switch.

Much has been made of Eric Bischoff’s lack of foresight in releasing Mick Foley and Steve Austin. Had he not released them, he would have been able to make them into main event stars in WCW.

Matt O’Connell SELL: Eric Bischoff had very little experience creating new stars that were not named Diamond Dallas Page. Sure, there was Goldberg, but his gimmick was that he didn’t lose, not exactly a creative masterstroke. If he had decided to keep them, Foley would probably have wound up in Raven’s Flock and Austin on the nWo b-team; Eric loved him some stables, especially if they were populated by someone else’s creations. But in Bischoff’s WCW, getting over could be dangerous if the focus was supposed to be on expensive ex-WWF guys. Best case scenario, they get over as Jericho did, get punished for it, and leave for WWF anyway.

Michael Benjamin SELL: Foley wouldn’t have been elevated any higher than the position he was occupying before he left. WCW brass didn’t see money in Cactus Jack. With all of the big names that ended up making the jump to Atlanta, Foley surely would have been lost in the shuffle. Even with crowd admiration, the volatile politics and backstage atmosphere wouldn’t have allowed him to get much higher on the totem pole than say, Raven’s status at his peak with company. While that’s a good place to be, it’s nothing compared to what Foley accomplished in the WWE. In regards to Steve Austin, I can only assume that he would have toiled away in the midcard. He could have continued to wrestle in great contests and cut stellar promos but much like Chris Jericho, they would have been ignored. He would have ended up playing second fiddle to all of Hogan’s cronies as the years went on with no chance to shine beyond the midcard. There just wasn’t enough talent elevation in WCW. If he never would have been released while injured, I don’t think he would have found the angry, in your face extension of himself that Paul Heyman managed to get out of him. Heyman had the balls to give him a microphone and air his grievances. Despite playing The Ringmaster during his debut, those ECW promos were the catalyst to “Stone Cold” Steve Austin as we know and love him today.

The Ultimate Warrior, for all the mud that has been slung in his direction, was a very popular character with a great gimmick who fully deserved his main event run.

NAME BUY: I’ve never been a fan of the Warrior, but given how over the guy was, and how marketable, he absolutely deserved a main event run. The guy may have been an egomaniac, and a not-very-good wrestler, but if you excluded guys like that from main events then Dean Malenko and Arn Anderson would close out every wrestling show in America. Wait, that sounds amazing. But still, despite his shortcomings, Warrior was ridiculously over and deserved every bit of success he got.

Michael Benjamin BUY : The Ultimate Warrior deserved everything he received in his career. Did the Ultimate Warrior draw? He sure did. That’s really all that it comes down to. The people loved to cheer for the guy and when it comes down to it, that’s the most important factor. His intensity was unmatched and Warrior was just flat out bizarre. You could have given anybody the same gimmick and it wouldn’t have caught on. The Ultimate Warrior had the “it factor” that’s not easy to find. I could count the wrestlers on today’s WWE roster who possess said trait on one hand and they’ve all had a cup of tea at the top of the card or are on their way up now. A promoter should always take advantage of a wrestler with the it factor. If Vince McMahon wouldn’t have brought him in, he would have been successful elsewhere as The Dingo Warrior.

I’d like to thank all my readers, and my fellow 411 staffers that participated in this week’s round of questions. I hope to see you all this same time next week for more 411 Buy or Sell: Classic Wrestling Edition.