Ask 411 Wrestling 11.13.13: Bumping, Buyrates, Breaking Stuff, More!

Don’t call it a comeback, I’ve been here for years…

Well no, it is a comeback.

I’m back and better than ever, got a knack for making things better. Face facts ’cause your opinion don’t matter

No, wait, your opinion DOES matter.

Back in black I hit the sack I been too long I’m glad to be back. Yes I am let loose from the noose that’s kept me hanging about

Ewww, no.

Now it’s years since your body went flat and even memories of that are all think and dull, all gravel and glass. But who needs them now — displaced they’re easily more safe — the worst of it now: I can’t remember your face.

Return.

Eh, close enough.

Hello, welcome to Ask 411 Wrestling, and I am your returning host, Mathew Sforcina.

*pauses for cheering and relieved sighs that this isn’t some sort of stupid joke*

Anyway, before we get into the column proper, I just want to clarify a few things.

First, in case you’re new, Hi, I’m Mathew. I’ve been watching wrestling for 16 years or so, and wrestling for 7 or so on the Aussie wrestling scene as Massive Q. I have a head for useless information, a knack at logical thinking and a 10th Grade Black Belt in Google Fu. Plus I wrote this column for 4 or so years to some minor acclaim, and thus, I feel I am somewhat authorised to discuss wrestling.

Now, when I left this column, I said that I had all these ideas I needed to get out. And I still do. But apart from the blog (which you better get used to me shilling) I’ve done none of them.

I suck at self-motivation. Or I’m just lazy, not sure which.

Anyway, I knew that the door was always open for me to come back, but once I realised that I wasn’t actually doing anything about those ideas, I stepped back through. A huge thank you to Bossman Larry and to Justin for letting me crawl back to the only thing I’m apparently any good at graciously return to the column I arguably made my own. And another thank you to Justin for his work on the column for what turned out to be a temporary fill-in, although as I said before, from my point of view it wasn’t meant to be. But this is my home, clearly, so let’s get down to it.

Once again, any questions you have should go to [email protected] I don’t take questions from the comments section, I’ve got plenty enough as is.

And now, the moment I’ve missed the most.

BANNER!

Yep, still the GOAT Banner.

Zeldas!

Check out my Drabble blog, 1/10 of a Picture! All the cool kids are doing it.

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Feedback Loop

So what do you want?: This is a new restart to the column, as it were, and so I want to give you a chance to influence it. Were there aspects of my old columns you hated? Was there anything in the Watry era you liked and would like to see continue (assuming he doesn’t keep it himself)? Or any ideas you have to improve the column? I’m open to suggestions and improvements, so do feel free to submit any.

The Trivia Crown

Like this, the weekly trivia question? Like? Hate? Eh? That’s the question for this week, and if this is still wanted we’ll start it properly next week.

Getting Down To Business

OK, one last thing.

Oh be quiet. I’m back, focus on that.

Anyway, although this is very much ‘riding a bike’ territory here, I’m still saying upfront that it may well not be a glorious return to form for me here. Given the column stopping and my podcast dying, I’ve not really had to think and write about wrestling in depth for a few months, so I may be a little rusty. I may not be (and regardless, I know a good chunk of the comments will be cheering for me anyway) but just being up front here. OK? OK.

First up…

Oh yeah, sorry, one last last thing.

In the transit of questions back and forth between me and Justin, there may have been some confusion about names and stuff, so if you see your question with someone else’s name, or your name with a question you’ve never asked, my sincere apologies.

OK, that’s all clear and done, let’s get down to it.

Oh, wait, sorry, one last last last thing… Nah, just kidding. Someone whose name I’ve lost gets to be first question asked of my return.

Hi Ryan,

So I’ve got a question that’s been bothering me for a while. There are few wrestler’s that have as many catchphrases as The Rock, and for the life of me, I can’t remember where they started. I’ve been watching some Rock footage from late 97′, and he still hadn’t incorporated a lot of his most popular Rock isms (except for jabroni of course), and I was wondering if you could find the first instances (or near about) of the following Rock catchphrases:

– If you smell what The Rock is cooking (believe this may have been the Wrestlemania 14 interview)

– Know your Role and Shut your Mouth (Michael Cole perhaps?)

– Finally the Rock has come back to….(no idea)

– It doesn’t matter what your name is! (thought it was the Billy Gun promo, but not sure)

Thanks in advance for any insight on this one.

…

I quit again.

*leaves, and then gets dragged back in by 411’s Legal Department*

All right, all right!

This is one of those questions that sat there for a LONG ass time, since I had no idea how the hell I’d work it out. But, given that there will be a honeymoon period here, I’ll give it a shot and if I fail, whatever. The best bet I can find for each phrase is…

If You Smell… This is ‘known’ to be at Wrestlemania XIV in the Gennifer Flowers interview…

Although I’ve read that in his book he claims the actual first usage was after he won the IC title in an interview with Lillian Garcia. Not having read the book I can’t confirm that, nor can I confirm that interview exists. WM was certainly the first major usage.

Know your role… Well, the know your role part was created early on, I believe the first usage was the “Nation Sorta Kinda Sexually Assault Chyna” segment in August 1998.

But the first usage in full… The earliest reference I found with a date and everything was Jericho’s debut in August 1999, but he must have used it before then, surely.

Finally… I recall reading somewhere that the first time he used it he was in Miami since he went to Uni there. Beyond that… *shrugs*

It Doesn’t Matter… Yeah, the Billy Gunn God Promo, I’m fairly sure on that one.

But with all of these, if you, dear reader, have evidence of an earlier usage, do please let us know in the comments below.

Huh. That one wasn’t nearly so bad as I feared.

Matt asks about Vince’s finances.

Matt, Love the column, you do a great job, my question is how was Vince able to afford to take over wrestling in the early 80s? I have read he was cash strapped after buying the WWF from his dad and then just a few years later, he is taking all of the other territory’s top guy like Hogan, Piper, Snuka, etc. Ole Anderson in his shoot video claims Georgia was doing the same size arenas as the WWF and doing more shows, yet Vince is the one who signed away all the talent and spent huge money on celebrities like Cindy Lauper and Mr T. Where did he get all the money to take over wrestling?

A combination of a few factors. Early on he was making good money running in the New York market. Not spectacular, but good. But he had dreams and plans. So when he started to begin expanding, he would sign talent not on cash up front but the promise of more money later. He would sell the dream of a national promotion, and good talent bought it. In fact, most of his money went not to talent but to TV stations, paying them to carry his programming.

But all this was leading up to Wrestlemania. See, WM has become the annual spectacle, the international symbol of wrestling, but the first one? The one with all that star power? That was a gamble. That was an all or nothing throw of the dice, as Vince needed WM to do really well to pay for everything he’d bought/spent leading up to it. If WM hadn’t of worked out, he was sunk, or at least his plans for a national promotion were dead and buried. Of course, it was a huge success, so yay, but the gamble of WM1 cannot be undersold.

So, to recap: He had a little spending cash from the company, which he used to expand his reach while signing talent with promises of big fat paydays later on, and spent big leading into Wrestlemania 1, gambling that it would pay off for him. It did, and then he was in a better position up until WM3, at which point he basically became God, at least in his own mind.

Bill talks about Canada, and how WWE seems to hate it.

Being there live, I agree that IYH: CS was the loudest I have ever heard an arena be, as you mentioned the arena was literally shaking. This brings up my question as to why WWE somewhat seems to ignore the majority of the Canadian market for major PPV’s and shows. WWE is hugely popular in Canada, likely more so than in the states, yet it seems we always get the shaft in terms of big shows (sure Toronto and Montreal get some love, but they are basically US cities to being with…)

Being from Calgary I feel that we (Canada in general) have the hottest crowds and generally pack the house, which in the end makes the product seem that much better if you are watching on TV (and likely gets the most out of the talent in wanting to put on a great match). However we only ever get a single RAW every 1.5-2 years. The only PPV we have had has been the aforementioned IYH: CS, which was a piss pour card outside the main event. Why do you think they have avoided running in Canada more? Is it due to the ‘bizarro’ reaction that we sometimes give (in that we cheer and boo the wrong people according to WWE) or is it something else (perhaps border issues)?

I do not have access to the WWE’s books, nor their planning meetings. I wish I did, I’d be able to sell them to someone, surely. But although the Bizarro World issue is part of it, it’s also the fact that Canada is still another country. Right next door, yes, but there are always issues at crossing the border. Although WWE wrestlers don’t need a work permit, apparently (although the TV bit might mean they do…) crossing the border can lead to issues. Some wrestlers won’t be able to due to past incidents, or if they are in the States on a visa, that’s an issue to deal with as well… Sure, these are minor issues overall, but given the choice of a show that will sell ok with no issues and one that will sell out with some issues, there’s an argument for the first one.

But this is theoretical. It may well be that WWE just considers Canada foreign and thus it treats it like any other foreign country, they get only a couple tours a year if they are lucky. Or maybe it really is just the Bizarro Land affect. WWE thinking is fluid and hard to predict at times…

Andrew asks about the Wireless.

Your column and answers continue to entertain and educate, I thank you for your knowledge and insight.

I have a question regarding pro wrestling in the pre-television era. Pro wrestling pre-dates television, and in television’s place there was radio, the predominant source of entertainment. Most popular sports were (and still are) broadcast over radio, even boxing. My question is, was this ever done with pro wrestling, either locally or nationally? If so, where might one find recordings of such broadcasts? My searches can’t seem to penetrate the vast depths of contemporary pro wrestling internet “radio” shows and podcasts.

Thanks so much,

I was able to find a source about professional wrestling being broadcast on a regular basis in the 1920’s. Where?

Australia. Melbourne to be exact. Here’s the full, excellent article on the subject, but to give you the finer points, radio was still new down here in the 20’s, and after 3 radio stations were set up in Melbourne, they suddenly had airtime to fill. And so the managing director first thought to broadcast boxing, but at that time boxing was pretty much long feeling out periods, one punch, goodnight nurse. Whereas 12-15 round wrestling matches seemed tailor made for broadcast, as if they were entertainment or something…

(Well, there was still doubt at that point. And yes, Chandler ain’t going anywhere…)

But this is rather unique, because at the time, wrestling in America was still very much very long matches where guys would be in holds for minutes at a time, then lock on a different hold, repeat. Radio wasn’t that useful because the matches were too long and there wasn’t a listener friendly vernacular. Left field in baseball? Easy to understand. Tackle in Football? Simple. Grabbing a guy by the arm and then wrapping your legs around his stomach and twisting in the opposite direction? Kinda hard to get your head around. So wrestling began to change, it began to evolve into what it is now, thanks to The Gold Dust trio and others. But by the time it was fully into a position to be broadcastable, TV came along, and it fit in much better there.

But as for recordings and records, practically nothing remains of the early 1920’s radio, full stop. So there’s practically no chance of getting wrestling audio from that period.

First of all, some self-promotion. Here I am appearing on Australian TV, “A League Of Their Own”, where I get to beat up an Olympic Gold Medallist. Go me!

I really missed being able to plug Botchamania. Oh, and go back his book that I wish I was doing.

And newLEGACYinc. Miss plugging them too.

And their good friend Dino too.

Oh, and also all the… Other stuff I find online.

Aedonix asks a question that is both easy and hard to answer.

Greetings and Salutations!

My question for you comes from a recent article on the site where JBL was interviewed and said one of his greatest achievements was to get the Undertaker to laugh in the ring (for which he says he got chokeslammed several times)

It made me think back to see if there were any other times where one wrestler has got another to ‘corpse’ in the ring.

There were a few times during the Rock vs. Austin matches during the initial face off at the beginning of the match where I am almost certain they were both trying to make one another laugh (although unfortunately with no lip reading abilities of my own i could never be sure)

Have there been any televised matches or PPV’s where it has been successfully done? where one wrestler has caused the other to lose his composure and crack up in the ring?

Great column, never miss it! and keep up the excellent work!

Well, sure it’s been done. Botchamania has a whole freaking segment based on it.

Skip to 9:05 for the debut moment.

But it means that while I know there’s a whole lot of moments since that segment has turned up a lot, listing them is hard without going through every Botchamania. Which I’d love to do, but timewise…

A few can be found here. But just watch Botchamanias, and you’ll see them all eventually.

And while this isn’t a match it does fit…

Adam asks about Paul Wight destroying a ring.

I remember an episode of Nitro in 1998 or so (I think) where The Giant, in a fit of nWo-induced rage, tore the ring down with his bare hands, practically bending the ringposts right in half. My question: did WCW somehow gimmick the ring to make that possible, or is Paul Wight really that freakishly strong?

It was actually an episode of Thunder, 22nd January 1998.

I don’t believe they gimmicked it that much, but then again they didn’t have to. See, he broke it in a very specific way. Watch the tape, he pulls a cord out from under the ring, and then he pushes/pulls the post over. Impressive, yes, but not actually that difficult.

See, a common part of a wrestling ring are cross support ring ropes. The ropes around the top of the turnbuckles are all pulling in, and by having cords go across the ring in a X shape, it helps straighten and strengthen the ring. Because if you don’t have those ropes, the ropes up top will try to move the ring into a shape that is looser, and thus the ring becomes less square. And, if you remove said rope, and then push on the turnbuckle… You get what happened.

So beyond maybe gimmicking the cord underneath, they wouldn’t have had to do anything. That’s just what would happen if you removed the cross support cables and then pushed and pulled on the turnbuckle. Ring goes flat. One person can, with a little effort, move a turnbuckle post. You should two guys to move it, but one can if thye are strong/stupid.

Steve has a simple question.

I know wcw pre-taped several shows in advance at the WCW Disney tapings, but to your knolwedge did wcw ever pre-tape any of ther ppv’s in the late 80’s early 90’s?Other than the obvious WCW Japanese Superbrawl/Supershow ppv’s

Apart from the 3 WCW/New Japan Supershows, the only other WCW PPV that was pre-taped was Collision in Korea in 1995, which was similar to the Supershows in that they were cross-promotions with New Japan, but this one was highlights from the shows in North Korea.

The occasional match might have some pre-recording (King of the Road for instance) but WCW wasn’t so stupid as to pre-tape PPV. Having TV tapings leak was bad enough but leaking out PPV results would just be giving away money. Of course, the flip side was that occasionally PPVs would see certain results go wrong due to injury or trying to be cute with booking…

…

Ah yes, this gentleman and his ever growing list of names. Swingline Claptastic DingDong Cityboy asks about the lost DiBiase boy…

What is the deal with Ted Dibiase’s younger brother? Was he ever under contract with WWE? He was on RAW for two episodes I think when Legacy was still running strong. Was there ever the thought of bringing him in permanently?

His name is Brett DiBiase, and he was indeed under WWE contract, he was part of WWE’s developmental from mid 2008, beating Sheamus in his first match in FCW. He wrestled on and off in FCW for a year before Summerslam 2009 where he was a planted fan, helping Orton retain the WWE title from Cena. And then he did appear on Raw to reveal who he was, as viewable on wwe.com.

But WWE apparently decided he wasn’t ready for the big leagues, so he went back to FCW, and began to team with the future Curtis Axel as The Fortunate Sons, winning the FCW tag titles pretty quickly. In early 2010 they lost the belts, and Hennig turned on DiBiase. But in their developing feud, Brett suffered a torn anterior cruciate ligament injury, putting him on the shelf. He did commentary while recovering, but after a year or so he began to train to become a ref due to the injury, then a few months after that in August 2010, due to his knee still being bad after four (!) operations, he was retiring from the business.

But there’s always Ted’s half brother if he wants a tag partner…

And Rob gets the counting question cherry honor…

Being a huge HBK mark I stumbled upon a forum post stating that after losing to Diesel at WM11 and before losing to Austin at WM14 , hbk never lost a match clean in between. I could have sworn he got pinned cleanly by vader during a 6 man tag during his first reign, and the survivor series against Sid where he lost the title was technically clean. Anyway just wanted to know if that statement is accurate (lets just say the Survivor Series title loss to Sid was not clean due to the thing with the camera)

Thanks!

That’s the kicker, what counts as ‘clean’…

*fires up profightdb & historyofwwe.com*

Let’s work backwards…

OK, so we say Survivor Series is not clean…

Oct 21 1996 was a tag match on Raw, but Sid ate the pinfall…

OK then, if you count tag matches, which you mention so I assume you do, September 30, 1996 edition of Raw. Shawn Michaels and Jose Lothario take on Vader and Jim Cornette in a tag match.

Vader does pull the hair at one point, and Cornette did swing a tennis racket at one point but missed totally. So that’s about as clean as you get. So no, he did not go all that time without a clean loss.

Ian asks about heel and face ratios.

Hi there,

I have some questions for you about faces and heels.

Do wrestling companies keep tab on the number of faces and heels they have? I assume they try to keep it 50/50? Do you know of a time when there might have been a lot more of one than the other?

Thanks,

Yes they do, since they need to know for booking reasons, hence you occasionally have one night pseudo-turns or turns for as long as a tour lasts (Miz turned heel on Europe just this last week) because of balance issues. Any major company will keep track unless they are really very stupid. Smaller companies don’t bother as much since they are more focused on just keeping tabs on who they have access to, although even then they will remember.

As for 50/50… Depends on the booker. Your average booker will probably aim for that ratio, yes. But not every booker. I, for instance, tend to want slightly more faces than heels, because face/face is possible, heel/heel is complicated, so more faces = many more match possibilities.

Others may want more heels, so that the faces seem much more up against the wall, and thus the fans feel they have to get behind them or else they’ll be lost. And yet others may well have a sliding scale, with some heels, some facey heels, some heel faces and some faces, so the ratio is all weird.

But times when there’s been an imbalance? The only time I can say that was in WCW after the nWo first came in, when technically there were three heels and everyone else was a face, nominally. But that’s very much subjective.

One Man’s (Important) Opinion

Smith asks about my favourite type of match to wrestle in.

Heyyyyyyyy Mathew!

(1) From your opinion, what would you say has been the most successful and/or entertaining to watch Big Man vs Little Man feud in the both the WWE/WWF and WCW history? For the sake of this question, I’ll classify Little Man as in around the same height as Rey Mysterio (not as small as in the case of Hornswoggle) and Big Man as Six Feet Six Inches or taller.

Rey? Really? That’s how tall you’re giving me? You gotta give me a couple more inches than that at least…

If you give me little man to be someone seen as a small guy and big guy to be not huge huge, then in WWE I’ll take 123 Kid V Razor Ramon. If you want shorter/bigger, Evan Bourne V Mark Henry in ECW.

In WCW, it’s Rey V Nash for sheer lack of options. Readers?

Rob confuses me slightly.

Who’s the best “bump guy” in the big leagues during the current era? Someone in the vein of Mick Foley or Crowbar, who makes others look monstrous through the brutality of their beatdowns? I’m not thinking about Dolph Zigger’s Flair-fish-flop selling in so much as Paul London’s “please don’t die” or Paul Heyman’s version of Shannon Moore during his Smackdown head writer reign.

I guess that’s another of those “opinion” questions.

So… Not Ziggler then?

Because I’d want to take Ziggler since while his selling can be a little melodramatic, it’s still awesome… But ok, ignoring him… There really isn’t anyone like that, there’s not exactly anyone in the big leagues who takes an asskicking and comes back and what have you… Maybe AJ Styles, but that’s pushing it. I really want to take Ziggler here still…

Also, what’s up with this column crashing my browser every bloody time I open it? Doesn’t matter which browser I use. I’m a regular visitor but this site is becomng nigh unreadable. Thx.

No idea on that one.

(Fill in your own punchline here at the expense of your least favorite site author.)

And finally, Connor talks the Bulldog.

Why do you think the British Bulldog never got a run with the heavyweight title during the 90’s? Davey Boy seemed to tick all the right boxes that Vince would want in a superstar

WWF In Your House #5, headlined by Bret Hart defending the WWF Championship against The British Bulldog, drew a 0.35 buyrate. That was the lowest buyrate on WWF PPV up until that point, and wouldn’t be matched until IYH: It’s Time in Dec 1996, and wouldn’t be beaten until the mid naughties. Bulldog may have ticked boxes, but he sure as hell never drew outside of England.

also, do you think he will ever get in to the Hall of Fame?

Many thanks

I keep having to remind myself he’s not. But sure, unless the WWE and the Harts have another falling out over something, he’ll get in eventually. It’s just a case of how he died means he has to be put in as the sole dead guy in a year, so there’s a bit of a line ahead of him I fear.

And on that note, I draw this edition of Ask 411 Wrestling to a close. Hopefully it was up to my old standards, but then I never knew what those standards were so whatever.

Glad to be back and all. Now excuse me, sleep now.