411 Fact or Fiction 11.14.13: Lesnar vs. Taker, Ohno’s Release, The Wheel of Dixie, More

Welcome back to the latest edition of 411 Fact or Fiction, Wrestling Edition! Stuff happened, people loved/hated it and let everyone else know. I pick through the interesting/not so interesting tidbits and then make 411 staff members discuss them for your pleasure. Battling this week: first off, he helps run the 411 on a daily basis with me, he is Mr. Jeremy Thomas! He faces off with 411 contributor and co-host of the OCHO Sports Show, Trent “The Penguin” Howell! Lets get to work…

Questions were sent out Monday.

Participants were told to expect wrestling-related questions.

1. While WWE reportedly has big plans for him, it is too soon for Roman Reigns to be “fast tracked” for a babyface run.

Jeremy Thomas: FACT I’m a big fan of the philosophy “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” And in this case it thoroughly applies. Roman Reigns is doing just fine as a member of the Shield and, to all of our astonishment, WWE hasn’t done anything to kill their credibility Nexus-style. This has proved that it is in fact possible to take some losses (and even lose a championship) without getting buried immediately after. Certainly they aren’t the biggest threat in the WWE anymore but they also aren’t also-rans or wasted potential yet. Reigns could probably do just fine as a babyface, but right now really doesn’t seem to be the time. Big E. Langston just turned babyface and every time we see two big guys turned at the same time, one of them ends up screwed. And besides, how many times have we seen WWE split up a tag team when they’re still doing just fine and it isn’t long before one or both of them are gone because “Creative had nothing for them?” Leave them the way they are for the time being and then break Reigns off when there’s nothing more to be gained from him as a member of the Shield.

Trent the Penguin: FACT It’s always too early. Hulk Hogan was originally brought in to be run as a heel but once he got an overwhelming face reaction they went with it. Steve Austin was working a heel character when fans started to take notice following his King of the Ring Promo. While he evolved to a face, it was as an anti-hero character because that’s what the fans wanted. The Rock did not gain any momentum with the fans until turning heel, at which time he began to get over on the mic and become the cool heel with the fans before turning face. John Cena was working a heel rapper gimmick when his battle raps started to catch on and become cool, eventually turning him face in the minds of the fans.

You don’t get much bigger than those names. You could also argue that CM Punk an Daniel Bryan from today’s marketplace got over working heel gimmicks and just kind of ended up as babyfaces. Then you look at people like Alberto Del Rio, or The Miz or real American Lex Luger. It seems like when WWE decides to turn a person babyface and demand from us that we follow suit it just doesn’t work. I subscribe to the old adage that it’s much easier to get people to dislike you than like you, and fans getting behind someone needs to be more organic than the horrible “fast track face push” show that we’ve seen trotted out before.

Score: 1 for 1

2. TNA is overbooking the world title tournament by using the “wheel of Dixie” to assign gimmicks to the tournament matches.

Jeremy Thomas: FACT Are they overbooking? Of course, this is TNA. I’m kidding right there, but the truth is that yes, it is overbooked. The thing is, I don’t mind all that much in this case. Overbooking can become a problem when it feels like it’s just too much and you’re over killing to bring in fans. It is true that a tournament to crown a new TNA World champion shouldn’t need gimmick stipulations in order to bring in fans, but the fact is also that some of these pairings wouldn’t necessarily bring in the fans on their own. In addition, the gimmicks do give off the idea that “anything can happen” for a reason other than “the winner was chosen by throwing a dart at the wall.” Honestly, the only thing about the tournament that bothers me is the term “Wheel of Dixie,” which sounds like the old stupid WWF and WCW stuff that we now see on WrestleCrap. Final answer: yes it’s overbooked, but no it doesn’t really bother me.

Trent the Penguin: FICTION It’s underbooked. Yeah, you heard me. TNA has gotten a reputation for sheer nonsense when it comes to booking. Throw it at the wall and see what sticks storylines, constant schmozz finishes, unresolved issues, stories just being dropped, characters being misused. All while attempting to remain a respectable wrestling company.

You see that’s the problem right there. TNA needs to embrace what they’ve got. Forget trying to be a respectable company that competes with the WWE. I’m talking more bonkers. Have Jeff Hardy become possessed by aliens. Have Bully Ray get hit in the head and think he’s the pope. Wheel of Dixie nights happen once a month under the Ice Queen’s rule. Make Sting have backstage pretapes of a Dante’s inferno type journey for six months leading to a match. TNA should just go over the top at this point. Why not? Seriously, if they didn’t have this idea they convey that they aren’t complete trash television, I think more people would tune in. I would get a kick out of seeing a wrestling company go all Game of Thrones or Lord of the Rings with their storylines. TNA fans have already sat through so much and the number is steady. Maybe nonsense is the solution to make it go up. I’d tune into to see Lizard King Jeff Hardy take on Time Traveling Robot from the Future Ken Anderson. I would not tune in to just see Hardy/Anderson. Take that for what you will.

Score: 1 for 2

3. The release of Kassius Ohno (Chris Hero) was a surprise to you.

Jeremy Thomas: FACT I think that this was a surprise, if only a somewhat mild one. For one, any release from developmental doesn’t totally shock me at this point; we’ve seen a lot of great names part ways just because it wasn’t working out. And for another, there had been rumors for months about Hero having problems with officials over his body image and conditioning. I don’t know if those rumors or true, or if that’s why he was released. The only people who know are WWE staff and Hero. But I do think that it is surprising because of the fact that his stock had just began to rise a little bit within the company by all reports. I don’t think this is the end for Hero’s WWE chances; all accounts suggest he parted on good terms and even if he’s never on Raw or Smackdown, he will be just fine. Ultimately this is just a matter of the stars not aligning right; maybe they will some day.

Trent the Penguin: FACT Because I forgot he was even down in NXT. By all accounts he has all the talent in the world but something wasn’t just clicking right. Apparently he had been asked to tone up by the management but I’d heard reports he had taken care of that and some of his recent work was getting praise. At the end of the day this isn’t necessarily a bad thing for anyone involved. Perhaps the biggest benefit that Hero has in this is that he wasn’t brought up to TV and tainted (Skip Sheffield, Husky Harris, Scotty Goldman) meaning that if/when he is invited back to the fold he’s still a completely fresh face to the 90% of WWE fans who have no clue what Indy wrestling is. Further, this gives him a chance to make some decent scratch on the Indy scene, making his “triumphant return” in matches that Indy fans will surely pay to see, and probably gives him a chance to get back to the style of wrestling he prefers. Perhaps down the road the two will be able to do some business, but for now, it seems as if WWE didn’t have a place for him, so it’s probably best for all involved that he goes on his way.

Score: 2 for 3

4. Despite having some interesting themes, you have little to no interest in buying the TNA One Night Only PPVs.

Jeremy Thomas: FICTION I would say that I have some interest, though I don’t tend to see them at the earliest opportunities because of work. The One Night Only PPVs have some interesting concepts and, more importantly, exactly what we want out of TNA: more matches, less silly angles. TNA has always had great wrestling and it’s been their storylines that need work. With these One Night Only shows, which are outside of TNA timelines, you have the opportunity to just view some great wrestling. I don’t get to see them right away, but there have been a few which have caught my fancy and I’ve watched.

Trent the Penguin: FACT The Joker’s Wild concept is kinda cool but I’m one of those weirdoes who actually enjoyed when WCW did BattleBowl so perhaps I’m not the right judge here. Look, I’m not the type of guy who can normally just sit down and watch a random wrestling match. I need investment in the storylines and some back story on who the characters are. I think that’s why I never got into ROH a few years back when everyone else did, because while the talent and “workrate” on the DVD releases were great, they didn’t tell a coherent story and living over 5 hours from the closest ROH house show it’s not like I could follow along. As such, for me to spend money on a PPV I’m going to need to have been watching the TV show, and the PPV is going to have to follow from that TV show. I “payoff” the cable company for the product because the show “pays off” the storylines. These are not connected to storylines and thus not my cup of tea.

With that said, it doesn’t mean it’s a bad move. I’m a fan of TNA going the “less is more” route with their PPVS because it makes the remaining ones seem more important. And considering I’ve been on 411 mania since 2001 in one form or fashion I certainly know that there are plenty of wrestling fans who would rather see a good match than a coherent storyline. That’s great for those fans, and this is a perfect opportunity for TNA to reach out to those fans. By current accounts the results have been kind of mixed as to whether or not the matches have actually been good, but that’s another story for another day. For today, it’s a concept I agree with for pulling in internet wrestling fans, but not a concept that interests me enough to get me to spend my money on it.

Score: 2 for 4

SWITCH!

5. You are interested to see where the new Kane character goes.

Trent the Penguin: FACT The Kane character is just awesome man. What else can you say? It’s been everywhere it’s done everything. There have been so many twists and turns, and yet they somehow all do tell a coherent narrative to the single greatest monster character that’s ever existed in wrestling. And what better a monster for the modern storyline than a powerful corporate yes-man on the edge of insanity. Probably my favorite part of the storyline up til now is Libertarian Congressional Candidate Kane showing up out of nowhere wearing a suit and simply handing chairs into the ring. He directs destruction now. That’s a good thing. Bring on more!

Jeremy Thomas: FACT Look, Kane’s done a lot more with a lot less than this. We all remember all the terrible storylines that the poor guy has been saddled with, right? And while he hasn’t made all of them bearable, he’s given them a lot more enjoyability than they had any right to have. And this is a different aspect to his character that I am interested in seeing unfold. I’m not saying that I’m deeply excited about it, but I am intrigued enough to keep following what happens with him and that’s all WWE needs right now. If he delivers on his character the way he always has, this will have a lot of potential.

Score: 3 for 5

6. A Brock Lesnar vs. Undertaker match at WrestleMania 30 is more interesting to you than a Sting vs. Undertaker match at WrestleMania 30.

Trent the Penguin: FICTION Allow me to begin with the simple statement that Brock vs. Undertaker is what’s best for business. No really, not in the HHH way. With those two I believe you have a higher drawing power to casual fans, and even non-fan sports fans or former fans. Even though we’ve seen it before, it’s been years, and would have a completely fresh feel and a less predictable outcome. That’s also great poster material for sports bars, which leads to increased interest, which leads to more bars carrying that and other shows, which is a great source of revenue. Total right move all around.

With that said, Undertaker vs. Sting is a dream match to me as they are the two who I can say have been around forever that I’ve been watching since they hit the big leagues. Seeing Sting at WrestleMania itself would be awesome, and I’m not a huge Brock Lesnar guy. For me personally that’s much more interesting, especially if Metallica lets them use “Seek and Destroy” because…well that’d be freaking awesome.

Jeremy Thomas: FICTION Not that I don’t think Brock and Undertaker can deliver, because they can. And they obviously have a ready-made feud that they can build off of. But Sting vs. Undertaker, while it may not be as good of a match from a workrate perspective, is clearly the more intriguing matchup in my mind. It’s two guys who have never faced off before and one of whom has never been in a WWE ring. They’re both icons in their own right and the potential for the matchup is off the charts from a storytelling perspective. I would be okay with Brock vs. Taker, but I absolutely would be more interested in the Icon vs. the Dead Man.

Score: 4 for 6

7. There should be at least one traditional Survivor Series match at the Survivor Series PPV every year.

Trent the Penguin: FACT I also subscribe to the theory that there should be a Royal Rumble match at the Royal Rumble PPV every year.

Oh you want more? Look at it this way; I completely agree with the point of view that the 2013 fan isn’t going to be willing to sit through 4 or 5 Survivor Series elimination matches that don’t pay off storylines. I mean everyone is so invested in this Big Show/Orton situation and we’ve just got to see what the payoff is. *cough* Ok that not withstanding, with almost every pay per view being built around a gimmick match of some sort, it just seems blasphemy to this old school wrestling fan to not have one of the original gimmick match ppvs remain true to the original gimmick. There’s no reason that the newly elevated tag team division can’t be put together into a 4 on 4 or even 6 on 6 match, it gets them on the show, and it’s a better use of PPV time than trotting out another Miz vs. Fandango match or whatever wonderful thing they would do instead. Elimination tags are fun, and when done right, can make even superstars that lose look good (4 on 1 ends after the last man takes out 2 or 3 guys. Makes him look strong even in a loss). The only exception to this is when special circumstance arise, such as the Deadly Game tournament, but even that could be said to have been a series of matches where survival was of the utmost importance so I’ll give a pass. Otherwise? At least one elimination tag please.

Jeremy Thomas: FACT I’ve always felt you need at least one. The Survivor Series has a legacy and it needs to be honored. WWE has always been about history, but it only seems to come into play when it’s convenient for them and for some reason they haven’t felt it’s convenient to keep the gimmick of Survivor Series intact. I don’t see how it’s not possible to make at least one big elimination tag match every year. How do you not know how to throw a bunch of people together? The good news is that they appear to have one going this year so we’ll see the traditional gimmick shine through for another year.

Score: 5 for 7

8. You are a regular viewer of the ROH TV product.

Trent the Penguin: FICTION I tried man. I really did. For two months I DVR’d the weekly Ring of Honor show since I get it in my area. I was not impressed. What few storylines existed were either not captivating or not fully explained, and frankly it seemed to me like most of the matches were “non-descript mma wannabee vs. non-descript mma wannabee”. Add to that the production values. Oh have mercy. Anyone remember “ECW Fan Cams?” If not, what I’m talking about are dvd releases that were literally taken by fans with handheld cameras of ECW house shows. The production value was horrible but at least you got to see what it was like at an ECW house show. ROH production values are right in line with those, and that just doesn’t work for a nationally syndicated television product. Maybe I’m spoiled by years of WWE production but come on son, at least get the lighting right, it’s not that hard. Finally, the point of watching a wrestling product is to see a payoff of some sort. In this regard you would think ROH has the advantage as their I-PPVS are certainly cheaper than the WWE or TNA live offerings. But alas, for that to be the case the technology would have had to have worked, and it didn’t. At the end of the day it became just another wrestling promotion that I’ve completely given up on and I haven’t even remembered they existed for a couple months until you asked this question.

Jeremy Thomas: FICTION I was for a short time, but I just stopped caring in short order. It doesn’t interest me and that’s nothing against the talent there; it’s just not put together in a way that holds my interest. I hate that I am not a regular viewer because I would love to see ROH’s fortunes continue to rise to become a viable #3 promotion in the US but it’s just not holding my attention and even when it’s on I find myself easily distracted by other things in a way that not even TNA and WWE, with all their problems, garner. If ROH can bring better storylines and less iPPV problems, I might be more interested and give them another shot but I just don’t care right now.

Score: 6 for 8

Jeremy and Trent the Penguin agree most of the time, but when you bring in aliens and time travel, any column gets better. Tune into next week’s column for more debating fun, and thanks for reading.

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