wrestling / Columns
Ask 411 Wrestling 11.27.13: Turning Cena, Doing Missy, Stabbing New Jack, More!
Hey there, this is Ask 411 Wrestling, and look at this cute little Otter!
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Hey, I just worked a 12 hour day, and now I’ll be a few hours writing this, so forgive me, Mathew Sforcina, your host, a little pick me up now and then.
Or not. I mean, I can’t control what you do. Shame really.
Anyway, this is normally where I’d drop those three words in bold/italic/underline, but given that I have so few opinion questions on the list, I’ll just make lame statements about how this might go a little pear-shaped but probably won’t since it rarely does.
Anyway, if you have a question for me, you can send it to [email protected] and I’ll answer it. That’s how the column works, after all.
And it runs on BANNER~!
Zeldas!
Check out my Drabble blog, 1/10 of a Picture! It’s highly readable! By which I mean there are words and they are arranged in sentences.
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Feedback Loop
I made Watry?: As I said before, if I had pulled a Queeg, I’d have been much more self-referential. Every week would have featured a comment about how Victoria is a man and so on.
Action Figures: First of all, thank you to Wicked Drums for the info, I’m always glad to see comments like that, all infoy and stuff. As for the topic, I guess it depends on how you count differences. Like you say, they repackage figures, does that count as multiple figures or just the one? Like most counting questions, it comes down to how the person counting chooses to count…
No Tara Pictures: My worship is a purer, nobler worship than one who merely posts photos of various female wrestlers. I exist on a higher level.
Plus if I did post photos I’d get nothing done…
Pushing Orton: Viewing Bryan as a failure and going with Orton seems a bit silly, but the thing is, if you don’t have a popular face to push, you push a heel hard until you find a face and put them over them. So yeah, Orton as a heel is a safer bet than Bryan. For now.
Wrong Ryder: … Oh, Bob Ryder.
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I’ll take my chances elsewhere, thanks.
Hogan 4 count: Ossie sent this in.
Hey again man. Another contributon which probably isn’t going to be that useful: I personally haven’t seen the Hogan-kicks-out-of-Bundy-five-count-at-four, but I can say for certain that I heard that story as far back as 1988. So it could well be an IWC rumour, but it was around well before the IWC, as well as the internet and email and youtube and botchamania and even smarks knowing the word smark. In other words, pretty much before the guy who told me back then could have seen it anywhere other than on TV or mentioned in a mag (this being mid-late 80s Australia when that’s all we had). So I always figured it did happen, and there is a record of it…..somewhere. Undoubtedly it was a house show or somewhere else where it can be treated like it never happened, but the mags back then listed plenty of house show results. I’d be interested whether Bundy himself remembers it happening anywhere.
Well, he didn’t respond to my tweet, so…
But that said, just because an urban myth existed before the Internet doesn’t mean it’s true. There being two Ultimate Warriors was around before the IWC, and that was false. It just seems such a big wish (“Hogan never loses, but this one time he was pinned for 4…”) that I don’t buy it without evidence.
The Trivia Crown
What am I? I’m a PPV, taking place sometime within the last 20 years that came to my mind for some reason this week. In me, one title changed hands. My opening match saw a finish with a move off the ropes that isn’t usually performed from that position. The main event was for a world title, although it wasn’t the last match of the night for the people there live. Out of the three matches where one side had managers/seconds, only one out of the three saw the client side win, and in one of them, the manager/second directly led to the loss! Every match was either one on one or two on two, although one match had special stips that allowed for more participants. A PPV that saw the Fink do ring announcing, two backstage interviewers and an Erik Watts appearance, I am what?
Maravilloso has it. Almost.
What am I? I’m a PPV, taking place sometime within the last 20 years that came to my mind for some reason this week. In me, one title changed hands.
SHAWN MICHAELS BEAT JEFF JARRETT FOR THE WWF INTERCONTINENTAL CHAMPIONSHIP
My opening match saw a finish with a move off the ropes that isn’t usually performed from that position.
THE ROADIE BEAT 123 KID WITH A PILEDRIVER FROM THE SECOND ROPE
The main event was for a world title, although it wasn’t the last match of the night for the people there live.
DIESEL BEAT PSYCHO SID FOR THE WWF TITLE. THERE WERE TWO DARK MATCHES AFTER THE MAIN EVENT (BRET HART BEAT JEAN-PIERRE LAFFITTE AND UNDERTAKER BEAT KAMA IN A CASKET MATCH)
Out of the three matches where one side had managers/seconds, only one out of the three saw the client side win,
OWEN HART & YOKOZUNA (WITH JIM CORNETTE AND MR FUJI)
and in one of them, the manager/second directly led to the loss!
THE ROADIE COST JEFF JARRETT THE LOSS TO SHAWN MICHAELS
Every match was either one on one or two on two, although one match had special stips that allowed for more participants.
DIESEL VS SID SURROUNDED BY LUMBERJACKS
A PPV that saw the Fink do ring announcing, two backstage interviewers
TODD PETTENGILL AND MICHAEL HAYES
and an Erik Watts appearance,
AS ONE OF THE LUMBERJACKS
I am what?
YOU ARE WWF’S IN YOUR HOUSE 2: THE LUMBERJACKS.
I just want to point out the first line, in that the PPV was on my mind because it too was Country themed.
Maravilloso returns to his familiar stomping grounds with this week’s question, a nice easy one to get you all back in the game.
I’m a wrestler. One of my former wrestling gimmicks shares something in common with Vince McMahon, Bob Backlund, Ken Anderson and Rob Van Dam. Prior to being announced as hailing from my real hometown, I was billed at least once as hailing from a place which is located in Nevada. My first TV match was against someone who used the same wrestling entrance theme as a former masked wrestler. I’ve been involved in 5-star matches and worst matches, battled MMA stars, and rappers. Many people see him as kind of a hero, but part of his character reflects qualities of a different hero. Who am I?
Remember, if you have a better one, send it in via email and I’ll use it!
Getting Down To Business
Jason Helton, a hero to us all, is first today.
I have a question for 411 How tall is Hulk Hogan exactly? Against Andre he looks massive but sometimes he looks just taller that his daughter Brooke or Jericho.
Hogan’s height has in fact shrunk over the years. He used to be 6’6 barefoot, when he wasn’t 8 foot tall and slamming a billion pound Andre. But after knee, back and neck surgeries, he shrunk down to 6’4 in mid to late 2000’s. But today he is apparently back to 6’5, thanks to more back surgeries giving him back some height.
Also in the 90’s he wore cowboy boots a lot to enhance his height, so you’re never sure if you can’t see his feet…
Mats asks about my all time favorite topic. Me!
Q, fantastic as always. I have some easy fact based questions for you:
Mathew, i always wondered, i have seen you use the big splash as a finisher, but do you have a name for it? Also, i see, DDT, Chokeslam, often, do you have more than “five moves of doom”?
There you go, and welcome back 🙂
My running splash is technically called the ‘Massive Attack’, but given that my matches never get commentary, it doesn’t come up since I don’t yell that out. ‘Roadkill’ on the other hand, my running avalanche in the corner, that I do call out.
And I do have more than 5 moves. Apart from those you mentioned and the above, I use Vertical Suplex, Sidewalk Slam, Fallaways, Black Hole, a wide variety of chokes from Nash to wrist tape, Welcome Mat spot, Short Arm Clothesline (love that move), Vader Body Attack, as well as a bunch of stuff I don’t use often because I don’t normally work arms/legs, and for the very special occasion, the second rope fallaway.
That said, I freely admit to relying on a small number of moves often, since I can do them well to anyone…
Matthew wants to talk WCW.
Hey there. Great column, I have a few questions for ya
I was watching some documentaries the other day and some questions came to mind, hoping you can answer them.
Now a couple from the rise and fall of WCW.
3. It is mentioned a few times that had the crockets stayed east, they would still be in business. WHo made the decision to go out west and why were they letting the talent use private jets just to stay in Vegas?
Jim Crockett was the boss, so he is the one who takes the ‘blame’ for moving out East. But the thing is, it made sense at the time, in that when he expanded he was doing gangbusters. The 85/86 period was highly profitable for JCP, and they sold out seemingly wherever they went. In retrospect yes, they expanded too far, but it made total sense at the time, since they didn’t want to burn out their haunts, and their shows on TBS were doing great, so why wouldn’t you expand?
As for the private jet thing, that was a combination of the time (The 80’s aren’t exactly remembered as a period of financial thrift) and the rush of doing so well. When you’re selling out arenas and making lots of money, it need a strong and disciplined financial mind to not spend that money and enjoy yourself. And hey, Vince was just as bad, but since he won that is seen as a sensible level of enjoyment, while Crockett overspent like a drunk fratboy…
4. Were they intentionally trying to make Goldberg look like a moron by showing him say that David Arquette as champ was a good idea and a few other things that made it look like he had no idea what he was talking about?
I can’t really answer that, in that knowing who is and isn’t on WWE’s ‘Make Look Bad’ list at any one point is impossible to know. The list is more theoretical than anything. But that said, I suspect that it was an attempt at balance and so they wanted someone to speak positively about it, and Goldberg is probably the only one who doesn’t care about the politics and just gave his honest opinion. I mean, if Arquette was WWF Hardcore Champion, that would have been pretty funny/cool. And even something like DDP and Arquette as tag champs you could defend as being an ok idea. But with all respect to Goldberg, he shouldn’t have been world champ.
David asks a couple of questions that are tailer made for audience participation.
Hey, have there ever been any high profile matches (on TV or PPV) that have ended in a way they weren’t supposed to end? Meaning that the winner was supposed to be the loser? And from that, if it has happened, have there been any angles/feuds that occurred as a result?
Second part first, outside of ‘Worked Shoot’ angles that Russo did in WCW, there’s never been an angle based on “You were supposed to lose that match!’ simply because that would completely ruin the entire point of pro wrestling. Russo’s… things don’t count either since the matches involved were supposed to go the way they did, which is to look like it became a shoot and the result was the opposite of the intended which was the intended outcome and god I hate talking about WCW Russo.
First part, it’s actually rare where a person wins when they weren’t supposed to. Going quickly to the finish, yes, that happens a lot, like when Austin broke his neck and so on, but actual match results going the other way, it does happen, usually due to injury. Like when Eddie Guerrero and Perry Saturn had their first match in WWF, a tag match against the New Age Outlaws. Eddie and Perry were supposed to win, but when Eddie hit the Frog Splash he severely injured his elbow and so he lost the match. I believe that’s the biggest match to have a swapped result, but dear readers, have I missed/forgotten one? Tell me below!
Also, have there been any matches that have turned into an all-our brawl where both guys are hitting each other with the full intention of hurting each other?
Sure there have. Shoot fights are rare but they do happen, although most of the time you have one guy attacking and the other either getting attacked or choosing not to fight back, depending on the guy. I mean, does this count, Antonio Inoki V The Great Antonio?
Or Earthquake V Kitao?
Because most shoots are like Brody V Luger.
But dear reader, since there’s so many, I turn to you. What’s your favorite/most memorable/biggest shoot fight in wrestling history?
And this is just awesome, if slightly old…
Ben wants to talk about a famous missed World Champion Reign.
Love the column. Long time, first time.
1. It is pretty much a known fact that Ted Dibiase was suppose to win the title at Wrestlemania IV until The Honky Tonk man screwed that up. My question is what was the plan after Dibiase’s win. Was Savage ever in the cards to win the title? Maybe at Summerslam 88? Or was Dibiase going to drop it back to Hogan?
The story seems implausible, the idea that DiBiase was going to walk out of WM as champ just doesn’t sound right for the time, but everyone who has discussed it has said roughly the same thing, so we have to say it’s plausible until such time as someone says no.
But the plan was, supposedly, that Hogan would do off and film his movie while Savage chased DiBiase around the country until finally, he’d win the belt in the first main event of Summerslam (which, to be fair to the story, would make sense as a big way to start the new PPV off) and then Hogan would come back, feud with DiBiase for a little bit until Savage turned heel and then at WMV Hogan would win the belt off of a heel Savage. That bit was in stone, it was just how they got there that was in flux, the story goes.
jayzhoughton asks when the government knew the fix was in.
Hi, love the column.
Anyway got a couple of questions,
And I may have asked this before, apologies if I have, but back in the 80’s when state athletic commissions somewhat regulated wrestling and the WWE/F (before they came out as a Sports Entertainment company), did the state athletic commissions know that wrestling was predetermined? If so when did they find out? One would think that they had to know, but isn’t their job to regulate the matches? For example if UFC started fixing matches (and I’m by no means suggesting this) isn’t it the athletic commssions job to regulate the sport and keep it clean? If so how did it get to a point that the athletic commissions allowed a predetermined ‘sport’ to exist?
See, here’s the thing. The oldest state athletic commission I found was New York, which was formed in 1920.
Pro Wrestling, or at least its predecessor, has been rigged since the 1880’s.
So there’s never been a situation where it has not been rigged under a Commission. But does that mean it’s always been a wink and a nudge about the whole thing? After all, the official “Yeah, it’s rigged” came in the early 90’s, to avoid sporting event taxes. So surely it used to held to the same standards as MMA, right?
But that said, if you look at the New Jersey MMA laws, which have become the de facto rules for MMA, you’ll notice something. Although it says that MMA is not predetermined right at the start, nowhere in the rules does it say is has to be.
So yeah, if someone started to rig MMA, not a damn thing they could do to stop it. They’d leak it I’m sure, unless it was profitable for them in which case they’d remain quiet.
And it’s the same with wrestling. Athletic commissions have always been about having doctors and ring mats and having medical clearance. They’ve never cared about wins and losses in wrestling. Boxing yes, wrestling no.
But I’m welcome to be overruled here if we have a law historian reading…
Someone, Let’s Call Him Buddy has a bunch of questions.
Hey Buddy,
Awesome column and thanks so much for answering my questions so well in the past. I got several more for you if you’re up for it?!
1. What exactly happened to the Iron Sheik’s daughter? Was she murdered?
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Well this is something I didn’t know. Sheik had 3 daughters with his wife, Caryl Peterson. The eldest, Marissa Jeanne Vaziri, was strangled in May 2003, aged just 27. Her boyfriend of the time. Charles Warren Reynolds, 38, confessed to the crime and was charged with murder. This was in the same week as Miss Elizabeth died, so I guess that’s how I missed it, but yeah.
But if any positive can be taken from such tragedy, it led to Sheik getting sober, so there’s a silver lining at least…
…
That’s better.
3. I believe you posted a video in the last couple years (one of many in your columns). Long story short, the video was mostly a bunch of still photo’s with someone narrarating of a factually incorrect history of wrestling. I’m pretty sure I saw the video posted by you but I may have seen it on Youtube as it could have been a recommended video following watching an addition of Botchamania. Either way it was hilarious and there were several volumes, all of which I believe ranged from 3 to 10 mins.
Oh god, I know exactly what you’re talking about, but it must have been deleted as it’s no longer in my fav youtube list… And I can’t remember the name of it. Well… That’s just great. I’ll slap myself when I hear it…
Sigh. Readers?
4. What exactly did Steve Corino say about Missy Hyatt in an interview recently that has cause him to apologize and seemingly regret telling the story?
Highspots has a series of videos, “Full Case of Tales” where they get a couple guys together and they drink and talk and drink and discuss wrestling and drink.
Anyway, they cover a bunch of topics in this shoot, (including a tidbit that the original intent of the “Wrestling Rehab” angle with Corino, Jacobs and Steen was that there was to be a 4th man, CM Punk, who was telling them and Delirious he was leaving WWE in July 2011, and he’d come in as leader and EVILEST MAN IN ROH HISTORY and dear GOD would that be a hell of a stable right there) but the story Missy Hyatt got so worked up about was…
Well, I don’t want to spell it all out since A) I don’t want Highspots mad at me since I’m about to order new boots and knee pads from them and B) it’s a little all over the place.
Suffice to say that the gist of the story is that Corino had sex with Missy Hyatt. Eventually. There was stopping and starting a bit.
Well, that’s the story he told (and I’m not doing it justice, somewhat deliberately) and then Missy disagreed and Corino came clean or lied to make up for it or something in-between the two.
So yeah, Corino basically talked out banging Missy in such a way she didn’t like it.
6. I remember that in the days of Shotgun Saturday Night there was an episode in which Marlena flashed another wrestler (I’m thinking Crush) as Goldust was wrestling. The hard camera only showed her from behind but judging by the ovation it got from the front row audience on the other side, it appeared that she actually was topless. Did she legitimately flash Goldust’s opponent or was she just wearing something skimpy that appeared as if she was topless. I couldn’t find the video but I think it was from an episode form 1997 or 1998. Also, I remember Ahmed Johnson doing some sort of crazy dive from the floor all the way over the top rope onto a Nation of Domination member. I’m pretty sure it happened but have never seen proof of it since the night I saw the episode. Did this actually happen and if so, was the entrance elevated or the ring just really low to the ground?
OK…
*looks around*
Fear My Google-Fu!
This was the debut episode of Shotgun Saturday Night, Goldust V The Sultan. And no, she didn’t actually flash people, photos/reports say that, like every time the WWE does this deliberately, apart from Armageddon 1999 and British PPV, the woman involved was wearing pasties.
As for the Ahmed thing, I suspect that if he ever did that, he’d have been put into the opening video of every show ever for all time. I could find no evidence of it… I hate to do this again, but Readers? Anyone remember this Sin Cara type move? I assume it was just a very low ring…
7. What is the story behind New Jack stabbing someone in a match with a knife (not the Mass Transit incident) but more recent and him beating up that old man all those years ago with a baseball bat, also in a match?
It’s New Jack. Guy beats people up all the time.
The stabbing was in October 2004 and… Oh boy.
Video of the match is online.
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OK.
I am sure as hell not going to embed it. But, under the Knuckles/Levy precedent, I will link to it, if you must view it. But it’s graphic and, well, it’s New Jack stabbing a guy, what do you expect?
…
Anyway, New Jack was wrestling one William Jason Lane at a Thunder Wrestling Federation match, and during the match, he pulls a blade and proceeds to stab his opponent nine (according to New Jack) to fourteen (everyone else) times. New Jack insists he and Lane agreed to use a ‘piece of metal’ in the match, while the promoter says it was never meant to be hardcore.
(And so he booked New Jack…?)
Various stories of Lane being green and working stiff, or not knowing what Kayfabe means float about, but apparently he only served 14 days in jail waiting for trial before the charges were dropped when there was deemed ‘no case’ in the incident. So there you go.
As for the baseball bat attack, that was the Gypsy Joe match in 2003, where Joe no-sold several moves and so New Jack proceeded to beat down the sexagenarian with a variety of weapons including a baseball bat.
I don’t have the stomach to link that video too.
One Man’s (Important) Opinion
Jon has a contentious question.
Hey Mathew, welcome back. Very simple question, maybe not such an easy answer: Daniel Bryan is the runaway for Wrestler of the Year for 2013. Who else in your opinion is on the short list?
Depends. Are you asking me for who I think was the best wrestler of the year, or who I think will be talked about as wrestler of the year? I mean, Hiroshi Tanahashi and Kazuchika Okada will get a lot of coverage in discussions and lists, but I’ve kinda only heard about how they’re the best in the world, I haven’t seen much of anything they’ve done this year.
So in my self-professed limited scope, there are basically only a few names worth mentioning, which each one indicating what you view the accolade as.
If you view it as who’s been the biggest star, who’s had the biggest impact, then it’s John Cena.
If you view it as the best character work, and/or being a wrestler, and less about what you actually did, then Bully Ray has a case. A weak case, but one is there…
If you think working ten times as hard in front of a hundredth of a big crowd is worth rewarding, then Kevin Steen is your pick.
If you value big moves/moments over all, then Antonio Cesaro is there for you.
And if you value being awesome against expectations, then Roman Reigns and maybe Dean Ambrose are your guys.
But yeah, it’s Bryan overall. He’s the guy everyone agrees with as their #2 so he gets the #1 spot.
James asks a very common question.
1. First of all thanks for answering my last two questions. I appreciate what you do for those of us who love wrestling.
2. Second of all, and this may well be unanswerable and I really am sorry to bother you with this, but I really need to know when you think the WWE will turn Cena heel? I get that he moves merchandise and is a great ambassador for them and there is no real way that he could go somewhere else and launch anything like the nWo angle that almost bankrupted Vince BUT… does the WWE honestly believe they can keep Cena face forever? Is it Cena refusing to turn or what? Basically, what will it take for them to realize that eventually Cena needs to turn at some point? Didn’t Hogan and the nWo sell merchandise too?
I’m very tempted to put this in the fact section since I’m so sure of it, but this is prediction and thus it is opinion. And my prediction is that Cena ain’t turning for at least a decade or so.
See, Hogan turning heel was a combination of two factors, in terms of him and the audience. Sure, the WCW loyalists hated him already, but that just made the turn work short term. Long term, it was all the kids who grew up with Hogan, all the little Hulkamaniacs who trained, said their prayers, ate their vitamins, they grew up and became cynical teenagers. And now Hogan was a bad guy, and he fit in with how they viewed the world.
And it’s probably going to be the same thing with Cena. Unless he gets bitten by a radioactive spider or something and retires abruptly, he’ll keep plugging along, wrestling and overcoming adversary for years, and keep going just a little too long (since EVERY big babyface in history has, practically) and then when all those kids who you see with Cena wristbands become angry and cynical teenagers, then Cena goes heel, to try and get them back in.
It’ll probably work, but it ain’t happening for a very long time.
…
Unless…
If Cena ends up broken down, like “I need a year off at least” through to “I gotta go to a Taker schedule” level, AND, and this is a big and, they find a guy, they find a New Cena, and they’re sure, then maybe it might happen earlier. Cena’s not an idiot, and he does, I believe, get the business and care for it in his own way. I think in that very specific circumstance he might turn heel, even just for a few months, to put over New Cena then go rest for a year or two.
Maybe.
And on that note, I bid you farewell for this week. See you back next week, perhaps with more otters.
If I get more New Jack questions, it’s a guarantee…
