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The Ten Count 12.06.13: The Top 10 Horsemen Matches (Without Ric Flair)
Welcome back to the Ten Count. As always, thank you for reading last week’s column. And here we go…
SO EVAN YOU KNOW THIS IS A WEEKLY COLUMN, RIGHT?
Yes, I am well aware this column is supposed to run on a weekly basis. Unfortunately life got in the way over the past 2 weeks. The first thing was I got sick, then my 2 year old son got sick, finally my wife got sick too so that was rough. On top of that, my job was absolutely insane over the past 10 days or so. There was some craziness in the markets and with us trying to achieve year end goals made for some very, very long days. Those 2 things combined made it difficult to complete this column. It was about halfway done last week so there are some comments below that are from last week as well. Next week’s column should be back to normal, so we hope!
OF COURSE I MISSED A FEW THINGS
There were a number of things that should have been on last week’s list:
This moment gives me so much joy. The later knowledge from his books about the hell he went through before winning the WWE title makes me feel even better than I did that day. It is also memorable for the enormous ovation that Austin got walking out to the ring. What is remarkable is that Foley’s ovation for winning the title was even bigger.
So….ummmmm…..totally forgot this one. How in the world can my previous list not include the DX Invasion of WCW? It was so ballsy, so bold, and so attitudinal. The only thing that could have made it better is if WCW let them in. I have a feeling that would be against contracts or something but my goodness if that tank would have made it to the ring that would have been nuts. Hindsight is always 20/20 or something.
Here are some other things that are not Top 10 worthy but great moments nonetheless:
Great moment but really didn’t move anything forward but it was fun.
The beer truck while something different it definitely didn’t reach the standard of Top 10.
Outstanding promo from Flair and the win itself was historical. Flair became the 2nd man to hold the NWA and WWE titles. In my mind technically he was the 1st to win them both as Buddy Rodgers was really “awarded” the WWE title.
This was the moment that almost got the WWE thrown off of USA. It is just insane and bad business that they allowed this on WWE TV. I understand they were moving towards TV-14 but you can’t show a “real” gun on a program that at the time was trying to make people believe that at least something on the air is real.
YOUR THOUGHTS (IF WE WANT TO CALL THEM THAT)
Let’s Go Back to the 70s:
Hogan Vs Warrior wasn’t the first ever Good Guy Vs Good Guy main event in WWF history, Bruno Sammartino Vs Pedro Morales was. They headlined Showdown At Shea 1972 for the WWWF Championship and fought to a curfew draw after 65 minutes.
Shame Vince Sr. didn’t record the event as it would be a good inclusion for the WWE 50 DVD coming out
MY THOUGHT: That’s a nice history lesson. I think Hogan/Warrior was WAYYYYY bigger. As an aside, curfew draws RULE. Yeah, they do (awkward white guy hi-five).
Montreal Is A Work? :
Evan, for God’s sake… Montreal was NOT a work. For it to have been a work, WCW, Bischoff and co would have had to been in on it too. Bret Hart was duped by the one man he thought he could trust – Earl Hebner. If it was a work, do you really think Vince would have waited 13 years to try and cash in on a pay-off? Do you really think that Bret Hart would have kept up this facade of hostility towards WWE for all that time? And what about all those wrestlers who either left the company or boycotted Raw the following night – were they in on it too? Watch “Wrestling With Shadows” – it gives as good an insight into the happenings as anything. Or even better – grab the Wrestling Observer Newsletter from that period in 1997 where Dave Meltzer writes one of the best pieces of work he’s ever done.
Nothing at all wrong with the rest of the column, but to call Montreal a work is a conspiracy within a conspiracy of almost Oliver Stone-level paranoia.
MY THOUGHT: That 1997 Wrestling Observer article is probably one of the 1st things that I really remember “Googling”. I have vivid memories of reading that in my Newell at Cook College (Newell #117, what up). I will dispute one thing in the comment we don’t know what would have happened if Bret didn’t get hurt in 1999. Also, you know the dirt sheet could have been worked right? The whole lawsuit thing I can’t defend so you have me on that one.
Or Was It?
Montreal was a work because VKM was looking at going public before that date. They would not consider an IPO with a 20 year debt on the books so the screwjob was planned to get Bret off the books and some big money from Turner to boot. The thing fell apart when Owen passed and like it or not all Bret cared about in Martha’s lawsuit was the video footage he could not have while working for WCW thus the work collapsed, read it in his book “but what about my video footage Martha.” Meltzer has gone on record that he can release who actually suggested the sharpshooter spot when that person passes and who contacted Dave immediately after it happened…Bret Hart. The shoot was a work of a second work that ended up a shoot. Eat your heart out Jesse…now that’s a conspiracy.
MY THOUGHT: Interesting.
I Know It Because I Was There (Well He Was) :
Over the last 25+ years my friends and I have been to many, many live WWE/WCW shows, RAWS, Nitros, Wrestlemanias etc. My friends and I were a few rows from the ring when #4 happened. When Austin and Tyson threw down, I have never heard anything like the reaction from the crowd. It was deafening, and as strange as it sounds, the noise was making my clothes vibrate as if I was wearing a suit made of vibrators. It was a surreal thing, and with all the cool live events I’ve seen, nothing got s reaction remotely close to that. Unreal and I will never forget it.
MY THOUGHT: That’s just awesome!
Challenge Accepted:
“In thinking about ECW back in the day, you would see 5 of those in 1 match.”
Gonna ask for a citation on that one, ’cause I don’t think that even the Credible/Lynn, Dreamer/Credible or 3-way dances ever hit numbers that high.
MY THOUGHT: Give me some time but I’ll find it. (New for this week, still searching)
How Dare You Call Me An….Internet Wrestling Fan????
this is a boring and pointless list. it should really be called top ten moments that internet wrestling fans never shut up about. Also, having owen hearts death on the list of top ten best moments of anything is really just the touch of class that this site has been waiting for.
MY THOUGHT: So tell me how you truly feel? Please see below….
IN DEFENSE OF #8 ON LAST WEEK’S LIST:
I included the death of Owen Hart on my list last week and there was a good amount of discussion in the comments about why it was there. Please keep in mind that the moments themselves don’t have to be “good” moments. It is my fault that I didn’t make that clear in the “ground rules” section. It was obviously not a good thing that Owen Hart died. That moment was one of the darkest moments in the history of the WWE. It was memorable and did lead to the “Raw Is Owen” show which was the 1st time in the history of sports entertainment that we saw the human side of the business up close. Owen’s death and the show the following day will always live as a “top” moment of the 90s.
Also, mentioning that the PPV was “Unforgiven” and not “Over the Edge” is inexcusable as well. I guess I shouldn’t have been writing that column while in a NyQuil and Sinex haze.
Again, I really do appreciate all the comments and most of them were quite respectful. The ones that were not are understandable but just know that the thought was not with malice.
NOW SOMETHING NO ONE WANTS TO HEAR ABOUT, MY FANTASY FOOTBALL TEAMS!
We are now in the home stretch of the regular season in all my fantasy football leagues. Once again, I went 2-1 this week but not in the “right” leagues. I am now 4-7 (dead), 4-7 (dead), and 7-4 (fighting for a top 2 seed). At least I will be making the playoffs in one of my leagues. The sad thing about that league is that there are 2 people that I drafted currently on my roster. That’s right, 2. I think that shows how bad the players are in that league. I was able to make some really good waiver wire pickups and some good trades. The other 2 leagues was just a case of bad drafting and running into average teams having above average weeks. One great thing about fantasy football, there is always a new team for next year.
(Note: Last week went 1-2 yet again. I am now 5-7 (dead), 4-8 (really dead), and 7-5 (fighting for a playoff berth). So much for me thinking that I am a lock for the playoffs in that league. I should make it but there is a small chance of me missing them. If I go 0-3 for playoffs this year I might as well retire.)
ALSO, HOW ABOUT THOSE CLEVELAND BROWNS?
Let’s get this out there now….the Browns were not a playoff team to start the season. I predicted them to go 7-9 but be a decent team that would be tough to beat. It seems like my prediction is coming true. The Browns had a GREAT 1st quarter against the Bengals and then gave it all away in the 2nd allowing 31 points. They had an uphill battle the rest of the way and just couldn’t get there. At 4-6 and 2 games behind in the loss column the division is now completely gone. Also, I just don’t see this team being any better than 7-9 at this point. They have PIT (twice), NE, NYJ, JAX, and CHI and I just don’t see how they get 4 wins out of this. Let’s just hope for a non-10 loss season….such low expectations.
(Note: I have nothing to say from that Steelers game. Horrible. Here we come to 6-10 as long as we beat Jacksonville this week. That might not be easy.)
IF I CAN SEE IT IS PASS INTERFERENCE, WHY CAN’T THE OFFICIAL RIGHT THERE?
While listening to Mike and Mike this morning, Cris Carter made the point that the final play of the Patriots/Vikings game was not pass interference. I respect his opinion a ton (and he is great, and I mean great on TV) and well, he played the game at its highest level, but when you faceguard someone in the end zone it seems like Gronk was impeded on his way to the ball. Again, if I can see it from my living room and actually say “That’s some pass interference” I think it was. Along with that, that personal foul in the 49ers/Saints game was total BS. I feel so badly for defensive linemen. If you can play that position well you are doing something great.
Here are the Ground Rules
AND NOW *The Top 10 4 Horsemen Matches (minus Ric Flair) *
#10. {Dean Malenko vs. Eddy Guerrero 2 of 3 Falls – August 26, 1995}
Background:Dean and Eddy arrived in ECW around the same time and was something different in the blood and guts promotion. They traded the ECW TV Title in 1995 while putting on some of the finest scientific matches in the history of the promotion. By August, 1995 they were about to head to WCW as they were starting up their Cruiserweight Division again with these 2 men being among the top stars. This was their final match at the ECW Arena and they wanted to make it special.
Why This Match is On the List:You would think that this crowd would turn on these guys in their last match in ECW. They basically did it for everyone else but these 2 men they held in such respect they actually cheered them. The match itself was probably not the best match for either of them but the match was the best they had with each other. At the end, the entire ECW locker room came out and gave these 2 the sendoff that they deserved.
#9. {Dustin Rhodes and Ricky Steamboat vs. The Enforcers for the WCW World Tag Team Championship – Clash of the Champions 17}
Background:Dustin Rhodes and Barry Windham were set to face The Enforcers for the WCW World Tag Team Championships at Clash 17 until something happened at Halloween Havoc. Anderson and Zbyszko attacked Windham outside of the arena and broke his hand in the car door. They believed that this match was not going to happen because Windham was hurt. They were wrong, very, very wrong.
Why This Match is On the List:There was a big surprise at the beginning of the match as Barry couldn’t wrestle. The surprise was the returning Ricky “The Dragon” Steamboat. That was more than enough to make the match special. I especially loved the Arn Anderson quote “he’s only a man”. It is those little things that make Arn a really special performer. Steamboat played the face in peril perfectly as always until the really hot tag to Dustin. The good guys ended up winning the titles and set in motion the arrival of the Dangerous Alliance with Arn and Larry.
#8. {Lex Luger and Sting vs. The Steiner Brothers – SuperBrawl 1; May 19, 1991}
Background:There isn’t much background to this match which makes the greatness of it more amazing. Sting and Luger had been feuding with Flair and the Horsemen for the majority of the past 2 years and needed something else to do. The Steiners just won the tag team titles from The Fabulous Freebirds and this was their 1st major title defense on PPV. It seems like everyone just wanted a good match and they delivered.
Why This Match is On the List:Before I talk about the match, the video package shown before the match is one of my favorites for just how simple it was while awesome at the same time. Anyways, the match was basically a highlight show for the 4 men. They bumped around the ring and on the outside while showing off their power and innovative moves. Most of the time when friends are in matches you usually get results that are better than you would expect. Sting was flying in the air, Luger was using his power moves, and the Steiners were just throwing people around. I don’t take anything away from the match due to the finish as it just led to what was next.
#7. {Barry Windham and Lex Luger vs. Arn Anderson and Tully Blanchard – Clash of the Champions 1; March 27, 1988}
Background:Lex Luger was a member of the 4 Horsemen for latter half of 1987 until problems started after he lost the US Title to Dusty Rhodes at Starrcade ’87. Luger blamed JJ for the loss and the Horsemen blamed Luger for not listening. They kicked Luger out and was a man without a country until he convinced his old enemy from Florida Barry Windham to team with him to take on the Horsemen for the NWA World Tag Team Titles. The match was set for the first ever Clash of the Champions.
Why This Match is On the List:The pace of the match is what stands out to me. I guess that makes a lot of sense since all 4 men had huge motors inside of them (even Luger). I also think that with Clash 1 being up against WrestleMania 4 made everyone on the show work extra hard. It also was a shocking title change so that makes it even more special. At the end of the day, it was Windham that turned on Luger a few weeks later in a match I never saw until it was on WWE Classics on Demand (that WWE Network needs to start soon).
#6. {Chris Benoit and Chris Jericho vs. Steve Austin and Triple H for the WWE Tag Team Championship – Monday Night Raw; May 21, 2001}
Background:Steve Austin had turned heel at WrestleMania 17 winning the WWE Championship. During his match with The Rock on Raw is War the following night, Triple H helped Austin retain the title and the 2 man power trip was born. Benoit and Jericho were having great matches with each other (which we might see later on the list), Kurt Angle, William Regal, etc. but came together on this night to attempt to win the WWE Tag Team Championships but the men who had just recently won them.
Why This Match is On the List:Yes, it is here because it is the match that Triple H tore his quad but that’s not the only reason. The crowd was molten hot for the “Canadian Chris’s” but also for the 1st time in a while had a real distain for Austin and Triple H. It is probably one of the best televised main events from that time era. There was a good amount of scientific wrestling mixed in with the craziness that everything had back in 2001. It was supposed to be the “big” win for Jericho and Benoit that would catapult them to the main event. It did for one of them, the other, well it took a little while longer.
#5. {Chris Benoit vs. Kevin Sullivan Falls Count Anywhere Match – Great American Bash 1996; June 16, 1996}
Background:Earlier in 1996, Brian Pillman and Kevin Sullivan engaged in a bitter war due to Sullivan not believing that Pillman was good or stable (see what I did there) enough to be a Horsemen. They had an interesting match at SuperBrawl 6 that ended in Pillman saying that he respected the “Bookerman”. This left a big hole in this storyline so in comes Chris Benoit. They had a couple matches before this one but none more famous than this.
Why This Match is On the List:For starters, the commentary of Dusty Rhodes. “There is a lady in the men’s bathroom. They gots to get some relief here baby”. Secondly, at that point in 1996 it was fresh and exciting. They fought through the crowd (which is something you never saw in WCW or WWE, only in ECW, hmmmm), the stuff in the bathroom was fun, and the violence for the sake of violence was great to watch. It is really sad that this match won’t get the airtime it deserves because of the Benoit issues but it really is a revolutionary match for its time.
#4. {Lex Luger vs. Ricky Steamboat for the NWA United States Championship – Great American Bash 1989; July 23, 1989}
Background:Ricky Steamboat had just come off of his NWA World Title run while Lex Luger had just turned his back on the fans once again. Steamboat in all reality had nothing to do after he lost the world title and needed something to do at the following PPV. Although we didn’t know it at the time, this would be Steamboat’s last PPV match for the NWA/WCW for about 2 years. Luger was at his peak in terms of wrestling ability (insert joke here) and just needed the right opponent to produce something special. Luger attacked Steamboat with a steel chair which set up this match and would become very important during the match.
Why This Match is On the List:In this match, if Luger got disqualified he would lose the US Title and he was not happy about this. The match itself reminds me of the Luger/Flair matches except Luger gets to play the role of bad guy so the overall dynamic is the same but different. It really was the boxer versus the fighter with Steamboat’s emotions finally getting the better of him. Steamboat used a steel chair on Luger which caused the disqualification and cost Steamboat the championship. Overall, this is just a very good match from 2 guys in the prime of their careers.
#3. {Chris Benoit vs. Chris Jericho Ladder Match for the IC Championship – Royal Rumble 2001; January 17, 2001}
Background:With this being right at the end of the Attitude Era, I really don’t remember much about the buildup so I had to Google it. So, from Wikipedia:
Another featured preliminary contest at the Royal Rumble was a ladder match for the WWF Intercontinental Championship, in which the champion, Chris Benoit, defended his title against Chris Jericho. In the match, the title belt was suspended above the ring from the ceiling, and the only method to win the competitors had to climb a ladder to retrieve the belt. Their feud started at WrestleMania 2000, when Chris Benoit and Chris Jericho challenged Kurt Angle both the Intercontinental title and the WWF European Championship in a Two-fall triple threat match. During that match, both men pinned each other in one fall each to win the respective championship from Angle. Since that event, Benoit would hold three pay per view victories over Jericho esp. at SummerSlam in the best two out of three falls match. On the January 4 episode of SmackDown!, Benoit defended his title against Jericho in a standard match. During the match, Perry Saturn (Perry Satullo) and Dean Malenko, Benoit’s partners in the group of The Radicalz, interfered by attacking Jericho, causing him to win the match by disqualification but not the championship.[1] On the January 8 episode of Raw Is War, Jericho teamed with The Hardy Boyz (Matt and Jeff Hardy) against The Radicalz (Saturn, Malenko, and Benoit) in a six man tag team match, which Jericho won by pinning Benoit.[3] On the January 11 episode of SmackDown!, Jericho demanded a title match at the Royal Rumble, and Benoit offered to give Jericho any type of match he wanted. Jericho then announced that their match would be a ladder match.
There you have the background….and it is noted so I can’t be accused of stealing.
Why This Match is On the List:It always seems like IC Title matches are the ones that stick out in people’s minds especially when there are ladders around. I think it’s because the 2 men in the ring are trying to move up the ladder (see what I did there) and are willing to do basically anything to get over. I think my favorite moment is the Walls of Jericho on top of the ladder. It looked cool and also painful. The other thing that took this match over the top for me was that there wasn’t a lot of “rest periods”. You know the climb the ladder…..SLOWLY….and get knocked off….then the other guy climbs….SLOWLY….gets knocked off….everyone rests. Wash, rinse, repeat. This match was not that so it had such a better flow and more excitement. Jericho won in the end, and with that won the IC Title until he lost it to Triple H in 3 months.
#2. {Tully Blanchard vs. Magnum TA “I Quit” Steel Cage Match for the NWA United States Championship – Starrcade ’85: November 28, 1985}
Background:Magnum TA was on his way to becoming the most popular wrestler in the NWA back in 1985. He was the United States champion and was being chased by the man who was the former TV Champion Tully Blanchard. Tully won the US title from Magnum in really controversial fashion a few months earlier. He would hold onto that title having someone interfere or getting himself DQed on purpose. Magnum decided that he wanted a match where the only way to settle everything was in a cage with “I Quit” rules.
Why This Match is On the List:There are intense matches, there are brutal matches, and then there is this match. The only “gimmick” they had to use was the cage so the brutality and the intensity had to come from the 2 men. I know that some people get some humor out of the “Say You Quit. Thunk. Say You Quit” microphone spots but to me they made so much sense. You want someone to do something, they don’t, so you hit them with the thing you have in your hand. Makes sense to me. Anyways, Magnum won the match after spiking Tully in the “eye” with a piece of a wooden chair. It is still the “I Quit” match that all others are judged from and there is a very valid argument that can be made that this could or should be #1.
#1. {Chris Benoit vs. Shawn Michaels vs. Triple H Triple Threat Match for the WWE World Heavyweight Championship – WrestleMania 20; March 14, 2004}
Background:Chris Benoit won the Royal Rumble and decided he wanted to face Triple H at WrestleMania 20. In the meantime, Triple H was engaged in another brutal feud with Shawn Michaels including a great match at the Royal Rumble. Somehow, Shawn Michaels got added to the WM 20 main event and it was now a 1st ever Triple Threat Main Event match at WrestleMania. Something tells me there was some politics behind that addition, just a hunch.
Why This Match is On the List:3 of the best workers in the business at the biggest event in the business bringing everything they have and just not caring about beating the hell out of each other. There has been so much said about this match (by people like me) so I will put the crowd over for a moment. Why am I doing that, because I was there! The crowd was wonderful during this match as all 3 men were “favorites” of that crowd but at the end of the day Chris Benoit was the man we all wanted to win. It was one of those times that everyone walked out of an event happy. This match also goes down as the greatest match involving a member of the 4 Horsemen (minus Ric Flair).
So there you have it, the Top 10 4 Horsemen Matches (minus Ric Flair)! What is your opinion?
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Next week, since we did Horsemen matches without Ric Flair I think I’ll do a Top 10 Ric Flair Matches list. Just for fun how about we make it a Top 10 Ric Flair Matches in the WWE. That is just so it’s not the same boring Ric Flair match list.
Until then, remember it’s all entertainment and shouldn’t be taken too seriously. And I’m out.
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