Ask 411 03.15.06: The Ultimate Dusty Finish, A Few Corrections, and Just How Great WAS Sting?
Posted by Gavin Napier on 03.15.2006
We also deal with Beefcake's injuries, which Martels are related and which ones aren't, Clash of the Champions main events gone horribly wrong, another push ruined by Hulk Hogan, and so much more!
Another week, more questions and answers. Maybe some of them will even be right! But before that, everybody do yourselves a favor and check out TNA if you haven't yet. Destination X was everything that's right about pay per view wrestling. Nearly three and a half hours of action that ranged from solid at worst to awesome at best. Whether you think of it as better or worse than WWE, it's an alternative, and that's never a bad thing. Do yourself a huge favor and get familiar with Abyss, Monty Brown, AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Alex Shelley, Team Canada, AMW, The Naturals, and the rest of that roster. It's a lot of fun and you're doing yourself a disservice if you're not checking them out. Now, questions.
Straight from the Atlanta Braves Spring Training roster, here's Brian Jordan!
Hey, I was watching an FMW tape the other day and it featured a match between Megumi Kudo and Combat Toyota
in a exploding barbed wire match. The match was excellent, although I get uneasy about women in hardcore matches. Can you imagine Trish vs. Mickie James in a barbed wire Match?? Anyway, what is your take on FMW using women in such a brutal matter and where would you rank Kudo as far as the all time great women wrestlers are concerned??
All time great women wrestlers? I share Missy Hyatt's opinion on women's wrestling. It's probably a point of contention with a lot of folks out there, but I'd be just as happy if there were no women's "wrestling". Kudo's as good as any of them, I presume. As far as them being used in deathmatches, the whole thing is pure spectacle anyway. If the girls know what they're getting themselves into and are okay with it, and as long as people are willing to pay for it, it's all good. It's not as good as Big Battel, but it's something to see on occasion.
Okay, there was this thing about the Oldest World Champion Ever last week. More than a few of you sent in to correct me and let me know that it wasn't Vince McMahon at all. No sir, Verne Gagne had him beat by a solid three years, winning the AWA World Championship at age 57, then retiring at age 58 when he went a year without losing the strap. My bad, but easy to correct. Thanks to those of you who sent me the heads up.
Brett Althaus wants to know how Stevie Richard's second best angle ever ended.
I was trying to think the other day on how the whole RTC angle ended and couldn't come up with anything. Was there a big blow-off or did it just kind of fade away? Thanks for your help.
A big blow off? Not really. There was some dissention in the ranks as Val Venis was caught "fornicating." A few weeks later, Val, Bull, and the Godfather deserted Steven Richards. Stevie was referred to as a "man without a country" before disappearing for a while. He eventually returned as a gimmickless worker that continually gets buried when he could be really entertaining and solid in the ring. Oh well.
There was a question about Raven's time in WCW last week, mentioning "I know you're watching, Snake." I was brave enough to venture a guess, and I almost got it right. Manu Bumb, Keith Chapman, Tim, and others mentioned to me that DDP and Raven were both trained by Jake Roberts, and so Raven alluded to how he was Jake's favorite, and not DDP. Nice, subtle stuff. It was supposed to end up with Jake joining them, but it never happened.
Steve from Jersey also helped out with the Raven question and took the opportunity to ask a question.
Any idea why the Vince or any other promoter has never done anything to help the Dynamite Kid? I realize he wasn't exactly Mr. Popular in the locker room in the 80's because of his cruel practical jokes. But in 2006, he's revered by the fans, and many smaller wrestlers. A HoF induction is certainly warranted. Or maybe a charity show from RoH. Something, anything.
You're right. You'd think they would. But at some point, he apparently pissed off so many people that he doesn't warrant charity. Jake Roberts referred to Dynamite as a "mean bastard" and several other guys have made similar comments. I'd like to see somebody get something together for him since he inspired so many cruiserweights.
Aguyin Cognito (get it?) asks about a main event gone wrong.
I remember a Clash of the Champions years ago in WCW. The match was suppossed to be an 8-man steel cage match, but ended up 3-on-2 between Sting and Dustin Rhodes vs Rick Rude, Vader and Mr. Wonderful (with Cactus Jack coming in to help Sting and Rhodes, as thematch was no DQ). My question is who were the other 3 competitors suppossed to be and what happened to them?
As far as I know, it was supposed to be a three on three match, with the teams being Sting, Dustin Rhodes, and Ron Simmons taking on Rick Rude, Vader, and Mr. Wonderful. Actually, that's what I've gathered from research. What I REMEMBER is that it was supposed to be Sting, Rhodes, Simmons, and Van Hammer taking on Rude, Vader, Orndorff and Cactus. Van Hammer got injured, and so did Ron Simmons. So Cactus was dropped and turned face by helping the good guys win. But that's strictly from my memory. The first stuff is the "official" information I found.
Jeremy Learned picks my brain about an overkill angle.
This is a question I've had for many years (yes, I have nothing better to wonder about, I guess). Back at Starrcade 85 Dusty appeared to defeat Flair for the NWA title. This was after the angle where The Horsemen had broken Dusty's ankle and he was wearing a "special" boot. The finish had referee Tommy Young being knocked out of the ring (surprise!) and a replacement
referee running in to make the three count, after Dusty had repelled interference from the Horsemen, and give Dusty the title. The fans in the arena all left thinking Dusty was the new champion and the angle had played out. The following week on TV it was revealed that Tommy Young had seen Arn Anderson interfering in the match and attempted to call for the DQ, but the
time keeper didn't see it. Since Tommy was the referee in charge of the match, the NWA board ruled his word as final and returned the title to Flair. I understand this was another infamous "Dusty finish", but my question is this: Was there a reason it played out this way? Why not have Dusty just drop the belt back to Flair a week or two later? On the Best of Starrcade video tape set released several years ago, they even finished with this match and still let people think Dusty won the belt.
Just think of this as the "ultimate" Dusty finish. It built indescribable heat around the Horsemen as heels and got Dusty even more over (somehow) as an underdog face fighting against the odds. Impossibly frustrating for fans, the situation would continue building and building and building until July of 1986, when in the midst of the Great American Bash, Dusty swiped the title for real.
Thechosenone2 needs to get some stuff off his chest regarding a topic from last week.
I swear people must be really blind or only think of WWF/E superstars when they think of the greatest sports entertainers of all time, but how in the blue hell (to steal a term from The Rock) could anybody not even CONSIDER the Stinger as one of the greatest entertainers of all time. I haven't followed his career from the very beginning, but I honestly can not remember ONCE having heard the crowd boo him (maybe when he briefly turned heel in late 1999). Steve Borden is one of the most gifted athletes to ever grace the "squared circle." He had one of the most beautiful drop kicks ever. His Stinger Splash has such elevation. His charisma was off the charts. Sure, some people may consider him too much of a goody-goody, but it's always wonderful to see good guys finish first.
Before I continue to digress, everybody loves Sting. He should have a show called "Everybody Loves Steve Borden." Did you see the reaction he got at Final Resolution? The man is 46 years old and probably in better shape than half the roster in all promotions. When the fans chant "You've still got it," you know you're special.
Most people want to give the nWo credit for WCW bashing the WWF from mid-1996 to early 1998, but perhaps the real reason for the success was the transformation of Sting's character from good-guy surfer dude to bad-ass vigilante. I don't think anybody, with the exception of The Undertaker, has beaten up so many men all by himself at once.
My point is, the fans have always been 100% behind Sting. He has delivered some of the most fiery promos I've ever heard. He has a natural charisma. Heck, even The Rock wanted to wrestle him a couple of years ago at a Wrestle mania. I could easily see the Stinger going toe-to-toe athletically with Shawn Michaels. I could see him taking on the wrestling machine, Kurt Angle. It's a crying shame they never really pushed his feud with Bret Hart properly, although I thought it was probably the best they could do given Hogan was hogging the upper card. Sting, like The Rock, has put over a lot of people and still managed to be a major main-event caliber wrestler. That's not something Hogan can say much. That's not something WWF Steve Austin could say. That CERTAINLY isn't something The Undertaker can say, although I love the Dead Man.
Had Sting wrestled in the WWF/E, even for a year, in his "prime," more people would recognize him and give him his proper due. I'm sure that's the one guy Vince is pissed that he never got to sign. When the CEO of the most successful wrestling organization has been trying to get you to sign with his company for so many years, that should say something - you're one of the best. As much as I would have loved to see Sting in the WWF/E, in a way I'm glad he never went. Who knows is McMahon would have used him properly in the 90s. I'm sure he would have buried him after the buy-out of WCW in 2001, as he has every guy that's come over since (i.e. Booker T, Scott Steiner, Goldberg, DDP, heck, even Hall and Nash, his own boys).
If we can't all agree that Sting is the greatest entertainer/wrestler of all time, or at least one of the top five, we can agree he is the greatest entertainer never to work for McMahon, and Vince knows this.
Here's the thing....Sting is great. Sting is also unique in the fact that he's more than the sum of his parts. Sting could have good/great matches, but I wouldn't consider him a great worker. I never cared much for Sting's promos. What Sting DID have, and in spades, was charisma. He had the energy required to bring the crowd to another level, and he should be recognized for that. He is by many people. I'd have a hard time putting him in the top five of all time, but he'd easily make my top ten. And the fact that he showed up on Destination X with no makeup and cleaned house and looked great doing it just proves that he's one of the special guys in the business.
There was a question last week dealing with female wrestler Riot . Thanks to Chuck Lipsig and Brett Copes for giving me the heads up that her real name is April Littlejohn and that she's working as a stuntwoman in Hollywood these days.
Tim missed out on the parasailing thing.
I was just watching Saturday Night's Main Event from 1992--in particular, the match with Hulk Hogan & Sid vs. Ric Flair & Taker. What interested me is that at one point during the match (while Brutus Beefcake accompanied Hogan to the ring) they mention a facial reconstructive surgery that Beefcake had. I remember this as being an angle over a year later at Wrestlemania IX. My memory is a bit hazy from this era, and I can't seem to recall whether the offhand mention of Brutus' facial surgery and the aluminum face mask situation he found himself in at Wrestlemania IX were part of the same angle, or just something nobody seemed to notice/care about. Also, has Beefcake ever actually had reconstructive facial surgery?
Beefcake's face was utterly shattered in a parasialing accident when a female parasailer's knees crashed into his face at about 20 mph. He wore a hideous mask to protect his face and it wasn't an angle at all. It was very much legit, and they used it as part of an angle throughout his ill fated comeback, but he was just never the same worker after it happened. They were both indeed related, but only because his face really was crushed.
Dai, Virgil Wade, and Cyrus Kapf-Altimore sent in a correction of sorts, reminding me that Vince McMahon has had a black world champion after all....some guy called The Rock. Here's the thing, being half black, half Samoan, is The Rock really the first black world champion, or the second Samoan world champion? We don't recognize JBL as the 31st caucasian champion. If I win the WWE Championship, is anybody going to make mention of the first Scottish world champion because I'm half scottish? No. I didn't overlook the Rock, I just didn't think of him as "black". I understand how potentially offensive this is, so please know that this wasn't done with racist intentions. I just didn't think of the Rock as black, no harm, no foul. Use your own criteria as you see fit for this one.
Mr. Kapf-Altimore also had a question for me.
Sherri Martel and Rick Martel related in real life? I don't think so, a friend of mine does. What does Ask 411 say?
Ask 411 (and biology) say no. Mock your friend relentlessly.
Bob asks a seemingly simple question.
Gorilla Monsoon used to call Brutus Beefcake "Brute-eye" (sp.?) How did he come up with this nick name?
Drag me out to a field and stone me if I'm wrong, but I'm 99.9% certain that it derives from Hogan referring to him as "Brother Bruti" at some point. Yet another stupid Hogan-ism that we're all cursed with, and another reason to banish him to a deserted island.
Johnny B brings up a situation that I was actually totally unaware of.
How did Hogan "politick" Perfect out of winning the 1990 Royal Rumble? For that matter, was Mr. Perfect supposed to receive some sort of push?
Basically, Mr. Perfect was supposed to win the Rumble, and was booked as such for months in advance. Hogan decided he didn't like it, wanted to be put over, vetoed any other options, and that was that. Perfect was supposed to get a push, and ended up going on about an eight month undefeated streak, winning the Intercontinental title shortly thereafter.
Here comes JLAJRC with a question about half of a horrible tag team.
I was reading 411mania's recent Greatest Tag Team article and one of the columnists said Nasty Boy Sags was dead. Is he? I don't remember seeing any news on it. Although I guess it's possible since we've seen Knobbs lately on "Hogan Knows Best." with no mention of Sags.
Jerry Sags, as far as I can tell, is very much alive. He did suffer a pretty bad neck injury which ended his in-ring career, but nothing fatal.
Justin O. Greenwald expects sensibility from Vince.
Why does the WWE recognize the U.S. title as a former WCW title, but not the WHC? It you look under title history on WWE.com it will show a list all former US champs from the WCW days all the way up to the current champ and even explain that this title used to be a WCW title. If you look under WHC title history it will list HHH is the first WHC. Does this make sense to you?
Not a lick. But not many of the things that Vince McMahon decides to do make sense to me. I guess with the exception of the belt itself, the World Heavyweight Championship is considered a new title, and in it's own way, greater than the WWE Championship. Why be champion of WWE when you can be champion of the WORLD? And honestly, why would Vince rename WCW's title as greater than his? We may have inadvertently stumbled upon the answer.
Here's the JZA with a pretty lengthy, but interesting question.
You seem to be a man of strong faith, so here's a question I've been thinking about for the past few years - do you think it is possible to be a Christian and still make it in today's wrestling scene? Also, do you think that use of steroids and/or any other drugs for that matter is against God's wishes? I was thinking about this especially when Eddie died, because although as I believe you said at the time his death was his own fault for his substance abuse and bad decisions, the other side of that coin is that yeah he seems to have taken steroids etc in the last part of his career, but what he surely represented in the business is that nice guys can win, and you don't have to be scum to make it in WWE? He was universally respected even before his death by just about everyone for being one of the few legit nice guys in wrestling, and never seemed ashamed of his faith for a moment, in a business that seems to celebrate all that is ungodly. Surely that was Eddie's purpose? To inspire people that you don't have to stab folks in the back and curse lots to make it? I don't know, maybe I'm just talking gibberish.
I think you can be a "good guy" , and/or a Christian and succeed. Evidence is found in guys like Eddy Guerrero, Shawn Michaels, and Owen Hart. AJ Styles is also a professed Christian, and seems to be doing pretty well for himself. Ditto that guy they call Sting. Why is it so difficult? Because wrestling is a cut throat business. You have to lie, cheat, steal, backstab, gossip, politic, and take as many shortcuts as possible in order to get one of the very precious few spots in the limelight. To a guy on the outside, Stevie Richards has a crappy job. He doesn't make much compared to the main eventers. He doesn't get on TV or ppv's much. But to a guy travelling 300 miles for gas money and a bad meal on the indy circuit, that's a sweet job. And they'll do just about anything to do it. Christians, if they're sincere about the decision they've made, aren't your lying, cheating, vicious individuals, and that makes it hard in the business of sports entertainment. God bless the ones that can make it.
Russ sent me a letter. The topics have been covered so far, but it's a good letter and I want to post it. So there.
As for the oldest world champion, my guess would have been Lou Thesz. I thought that was part of his legend, that he held the world title in like 5 different decades. However, if you're not picky regarding a gender-specific world champion, then that honor must go to the Fabulous Moolah, who won the WWF Women's title in 1999. I'm not sure how old she was them but her WWE Hall of Fame entry claims she was in her 70s. Check it out here: http://www.wwe.com/superstars/halloffame/fabulousmoolah/profile/
Second, on Ron Killings/K-Kwik's WWF run: He was teamed with the Road Dog upon his arrival, but about a month after that Road Dog was fired. (I seem to recall he was caught with marijuana.) Killings then had to go as a singles wrestler, and pretty much jobbed out until his release.
Finally, as to the greatest sports entertainer, there's so many different levels to evaluate this on, and is purely a matter of opinion. If you're going to talk about wrestlers who have "crossed over" to Hollywood, then you've got to talk about Rock, Hogan, and Roddy Piper, who have all starred in major movies, and then throw in Jesse Ventura, Kevin Nash, and Goldberg as those who have appeared, but not really been the star of several movies. (I think Austin's only been in The Longest Yard, but I'm probably wrong.) Also, Bret Hart and Steve Austin have played recurring characters in a TV series. However, if you're going to talk about wrestling ability, then you can definitely scrap Hogan, Nash, Ventura, and Goldberg, and pretty much Piper and Austin as well. (Austin became a bigger star after Owen's botched piledriver, but he wasn't as good of a wrestler then.) Flair, of course, was a good wrestler, but I can't remember him doing anything in terms of movies or TV.
Let me toss three names in the discussion that you didn't mention. First, Chris Jericho does have the wrestling ability, and while his non-wrestling pursuits haven't included Hollywood, he apparently does have some kind of following as a musician, and he's got that satellite radio host thing going for him too. Second, Ken Shamrock was never a wrestling world champion, but he was a mixed martial arts world champion prior to coming to the WWF, and he'll also be one of the coaches in the third series of The Ultimate Fighter. While not exactly Hollywood, it must count for something. Maybe only just as much as Al Snow doing Tough Enough, though. And finally, allow me to add in an Olympic gold medalist who made the transition from amateur wrestling world champion to professional wrestling world champion – Kurt Angle. While his acting experience is limited to that dorky commercial he did for a small pizza chain in his hometown, I believe he's got enough charisma to follow in The Rock's footsteps once his neck gets in bad enough shape that he has to quit wrestling.
Good info and insights. Thanks much.
Lev gets a handful in because he missed me so much. This trick only works once, don't get any ideas.
1) Does anyone still use Killer Kowalski Throat Stomp Finisher?
2) In your opinion, is it the most dangerous finisher of all time? If not, what is? The Burning Hammer?
3) How do superkicks look and sound so devastating without doing any damage?
1) Not that I'm aware of, but there are millions of indy guys out there.
2) Burning Hammer is pretty nasty. The Backdrop Driver also broke lots of collarbones. Then there's the dreaded Ganzo Bomb.
3) With a well timed slap on the thigh, that's how. Bret Hart would disagree.
Brian Rankin follows up on Montreal.
Everyone knows about the "Montreal Screw Job" (I agree with you about that being a work), but have there been many actual swerves like this in the past?
Not a lot, but it's happened. There's the infamous Jarrett/Hogan/Russo thing. You've got Pillman/Sullivan, and Sullivan/Benoit which was just something that turned a little too real. You could probably lump in Shane Douglas winning the NWA title, too. As mentioned before, wrestling is a nasty business and things can turn ugly when people don't trust other people.
That pretty much wraps things up for me here. I've got my honest to goodness rules back this week, so pay attention to them. Especially the e-mail thing. And oh yeah...tune in next week for (by request)... DREAM CARD EXTRAVAGANZA II
1. If you ask a question that's already been asked, I will refer you to that column instead of answering again. Why? That's what column archives are for. Now, I don't know what's been asked in older columns, so this rule applies only for MY Ask 411 columns.
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