Ask 411 04.19.06: Andre, Snuka vs. Piper, Jimmy Valiant and...Dudley Moore?
Posted by Gavin Napier on 04.19.2006
What really happened in the Piper-Snuka feud? What did Andre the Giant have to do with Dudley Moore? And who in blue blazes is Mike Jackson and why did he beat Ric Flair? These answers and more inside!
Not a lot of material this week, so we'll just cut to the chase.
goz572 starts out with some old school stuff on us.
I vaguely recall Jimmy Valiant being attacked during an interview segment by someone that he called "the best black wrestler in wrestling", which prompted the attack, and I believe a cutting of his beard. I'm thinking either Rocky King or Pez Whatly. Any thoughts? And do you know what the angle was that turned Manny Fernandez against Jimmy?
It was "Pistol" Pez Whatley that did the trimming. Valiant and Whatley were a team of sorts, and Jimmy called him the "best black athlete in wrestling", which Whatley took as a backhanded compliment and promptly cut off the beloved ponytail of the "Boogie Woogie Man". Pez then changed his name to Shaska Whatley and joined Paul Jones' Army. With Manny "The Raging Bull" Fernandez, he and Jimmy Valiant were a team known as the "B and B Connection" for "Boogie" and "Bull". The two waged war against Paul Jones and his stable until the summer of 1986 when Manny was bought off by Paul Jones and turned on Valiant to add some heat to Jimmy's feud with Paul. Hope all that helps.
Here's Bryan Jones asking about the Total Package.
I read somewhere that Lex Luger played in the NFL...which I can believe ....but they said as an offensive lineman. Is that true? Even with all his muscle, the fact he is less than 300 pounds he would seem an ineffective blocker, and wouldnt a guy with his body be a better running back, or linebacker?
Lex Luger played college football at Penn State University and Miami University, and played professionally in the NFL, CFL, and USFL under his given name of Larry Pfohl. He spent the 1982 season on the injured reserve list of the Green Bay Packers and was later waived without playing a single down. He joined the USFL and spent time with the Memphis Showboats and the Tampa Bay Bandits. In the CFL he was a member of the Montreal Alouettes. He was indeed an offensive lineman. Luger stands about 6'5" tall and has weighed anywhere from 275 to 290 lbs. in the ring, which would make him somewhat undersized as a pro OL, but even today you see some teams go with guys that size for strength, speed, and athleticism, and have success with it.
JDP's learning the code.
In one of the 411 reviews of Wrestlemania, someone remarked that when Flair took his big bump in the MITB match the referee crossed his arms to indicate that he wasn't legitimately hurt. (Well, he probably was hurt, but not enough for serious medical attention.) Are there other signals referees or others use that the viewer can pick up on?
The "x" used to be the symbol for a legitimate injury, until people started catching on to it. Now they've moved to something else that I personally haven't picked up on yet. Other stuff you can look for is refs talking to guys while breaking them in the corner or checking on them during counts when both men are down, or shortly after a high spot. Refs can make the difference (easily) in a good match and a great match, so watch them closely. The best example of this is Tommy Young, a guy from the NWA in the 80's. Far and away, he was the best ref ever. If you ever check out old NWA tapes, make sure you pay attention to him. He's worth watching matches twice just to see the little stuff he does. If a pin was close to the ropes, he'd slide out of the ring to count. If he was "out of position", he'd jump over the guys and land in a position to start his count instead of running and sliding. He reacted to moves like a fan in the ring, but maintained the sense that he was in control the whole time as well. Great stuff.
Kenny F. wants to know about the Dragon's runs.
I was watching the wwe dvd of the greatest wrestling superstars of the 80s, they didn't say much in regaurds to the NWA world title reigns of Ricky steam boat. I was wonder if you could tell me how many world titles reigns he had and who did he beat for them.
Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat was a one time world champion, defeating Ric Flair on February 20, 1989 at Chi Town Rumble in Chicago, Illinois. His reign lasted until May 7, 1989, when Ric Flair regained the title from him at Wrestlewar. In addition to his lone NWA World Title run, Steamboat was a 4 time NWA/WCW/Mid-Atlantic Television Champion, a 3 time Mid Atlantic Tag Team Champion, an 8 time NWA/WCW World Tag Team Champion, a 4 time NWA/WCW United States Champion, a 2 time Mid Atlantic Champion, 1 time WWF Intercontinental Champion, and PWI's 1977 Rookie of the Year, 1978 Tag Team of the Year (with Paul Jones), recipient of the 1995 Editor's Award, Match of the Year winner in 1987 (vs. Randy Savage) and 1989 (vs. Ric Flair), and a member of the Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame.
DarkNightWolf101 asks about one of the overlooked greats.
One of my brother in law's favorite wrestlers is The Red Rooster Terry Taylor. He wants to know what happen to him?
Terry Taylor was a perennial star in southern territories such as the UWF, working as both a babyface and a heel. The Red Rooster gimmick was abysmal and didn't do justice to Terry's talents in the ring, as he was a former UWF Television champion and future feature member of the York Foundation. After retiring from the ring, Taylor would become a member of the creative team for both WCW and the WWF, being in both companies when the nWo as well as D-X and Steve Austin took off. Taylor currently works as a member of the creative team and trainer for TNA, as well as an occasional on-air personality. Five-arm owns you.
Jason Duguay picks my brain for a little fantasy fun.
Do you think that there will be a draft this year? if so, who would you like to see change brands? I'd like to see the Undertaker moved to Raw, and Shawn Michaels moved to Smackdown.
I think there will be at some point, but I don't know how much good it's going to do because they keep downplaying it every year. I'd move RVD to Smackdown because I think there's more potential for him there after ECW One Night Stand this year. I'd like to see him call out Rey and then open the door for what could be a very fun RVD vs. Randy Orton feud for the title. Or RVD vs. Kurt Angle. I wouldn't mind seeing JBL go to RAW...on the condition that he's a face. I think JBL is primed and ready for a face turn with a combination of "smarter than you" JBL that we have now and the rompin' stompin' Texan that we came to know and love as a member of the APA. Bradshaw vs. Benjamin? Bradshaw vs. Edge? I'll take it.
I'd send the Samoan Umaga to Smackdown with the rest of the gimmick based guys and add Kane for a little star power since they can't seem to bury the guy despite their best efforts. Bring Regal and Burchill over from Smackdown and team them up with Harry Smith to take the Spirit Squad down a few notches. Pirate gear not necessary. I'd put the returning Test on RAW, Sean O'Haire (if he actually makes it back) on Smackdown, and make it a priority to make Smackdown's roster as strong as possible with any new signings.
Connor O'Boyle asks about down south home cookin.
I just wondering that is it true that Jerry Lawler beat Andre the Gaint at one time in the early 80s?If this is true do you have details on how the match went and finish.Also if this true then why would Andre or Vince Sr or Jr agree to this here if Andre was a big attraction at this time?
It was actually in 1975, before Andre became associated with any one promotion for an extended length of tme. Lawler actually won the bout by countout, so there was no pinfall or submission loss on Andre's record. it would almost have to have happened in the South, where Lawler went over everyone and their brother at one point or another. That was somewhat the intention of bringing big name guys from out of town in those days. Bring in a big name from out of town and job them to your hometown star, and it makes your roster look stronger. It also allows the opportunity to make money in the other territory for a "grudge match". ECW followed this formula quite a bit during their run, as many of the "guest stars" did jobs routinely on their first appearance.
Joey Romero touches upon my favorite subject.
In the early 80's, I remember watching a match on World Championship Wrestling on TBS between Ric Flair and Mike Jackson who was wearing jester like tights. Why in god's name would Ric Flair allow this nobody to win the match? To me, Mike Jackson was never going to get over as a low to mid-card wrestler and definitely did not have the look to become a main eventer but at the same time was not a terrible wrestler either. Was this some kind of punishment to Ric Flair since I believe had the belt at the time and the match was a non-title match?
Maybe you saw something different, but I can't find anything that says that Jackson went over Flair. He did gain the upper hand and gave the fans a thrill because he was probably their favorite underdog, but Flair ended up winning the match with the Figure Four. Mike Jackson was an EXCELLENT preliminary wrestler whose size kept him from doing much in the main event level, or even the mid-card. As a worker, he was well respected and liked among the stars, so Flair letting the guy get the upper hand wasn't a bit thing. Jackson was a high school and collegiate wrestler and had a solid set of skills in the ring. He went on to run a couple of small promotions in the south after retiring.
bill14m needs some details on wrestling's premiere Canadian family.
the question, is that as an avid fan of of the Hart Family and Hart Foundation of new and old, I was going to make a New Hart Foundation stable for my RawVsSmackdown06 game. Unfortunately, I cannot, for the life of me, figure out what Brian Pillman and Jim Neidhart's finishing moves were. Obsessed With Wrestling has Pillman's finisher as the "Air Pillman", but I have no idea what the Hell that is. And they have Neidhart's as the "Anvil Flattener". Again, ...what? Thanks for the help.
"Air Pillman" was a flying clothesline that saw Pillman stand on the ring apron, springboard to the middle of the top rope, and launch off with a clothesline. It doesn't sound like much, but in 1989 or so when he debuted, it was pretty awesome. The "Anvil Flattener" was a powerslam of sorts. Mr. Neidhart would scoop the guy up and hold him horizontally at chest level, and just drop quickly to the mat into a pinning position. Not a bad finisher for a guy his size.
Garrett wants to know where a finisher came from.
I've been wondering about this since I've seen TNA on Spike. In TNA, Jeff Jarrett's finisher is called The Stroke. I've been wondering if that's a little in-joke towards Jarrett's backstage stroke, seeing as how TNA has a smarky main audience who would know about all that. I'm not at all familiar with old WWE or WCW, so I don't know if he's used this move for longer, but after thinking it over, I thought that'd be a good reason to call it The Stroke. Am I correct, or is there some other logic to Jarrett's finisher?
The name actually came up in WCW when Jarrett was buddies with Vince Russo on and off camera. Jarrett was dubbed "The Chosen One" and it was actually a pretty good gimmick for him, because he played it up well. Jarrett became fond of saying something to the effect of "I'm the one with all the stroke around here." Shortly thereafter, his finisher had a name. Given what his position in TNA is, it's only natural to hold on to the name.
Chimera gets minute.
Referees do the standing ten count, count outs, five count for an illegal move or hold - and a five count for standing on the top rope. Has anyone ever been disqualified for standing on the top rope for too long?
Not that I'm aware of. I have seen matches that saw both men on their backs at the 10 count and the winner was the first guy to get to his feet, I've seen double countouts and countouts obviously. I've even seen Danny Spivey get DQ'd for not breaking a choke in a corner by the five count. But never for standing on the top rope. If anybody knows about this happening, I'd love to hear about it so I can track it down on video just for the sake of having it.
JLAJRC asks a simple one.
Did Piper and Snuka ever have a match after their infamous Piper's Pit/Coconut incident?
This seemed like an obvious answer to me, but then I realized that I never actually heard anything about them wrestling each other, either. Surely they wouldn't do that to a huge babyface just to get Piper more over....would they? Turns on on July 7th, 1984, Snuka defeated Piper. Piper would kick the feud up another notch on August 25th of that year by defeating Snuka by countout and "breaking his neck" in the process. Snuka would then enlist the help of the Tonga kid to face off against Piper, Orton, and Orndorff. Snuka also teamed with Tony Atlas and Junkyard Dog against the dominant heel trio eventually defeating Bob Orton at the "War to Settle the Score". He and Piper would go on to have several non-finishes such as double countouts and double disqualifications. There was also a Fijian Strap Match that saw Snuka defeat Piper, but was nowhere NEAR the blowoff for the feud, as it took place very early on.
Marc Hyde just wants everybody to get along.
I watching a tag match on WWE online where the Samoan Swat Team (Samu and Fatu) fought Michael "P.S." Hayes and Steve Cox on AWA's SuperClash 3 in 1988. The Samoans were being managed by Buddy Rogers. Can you give me the backstory as to why one Freebird would be managing a tag team against another Freebird?
At various times in the Freebirds' history, there would be falling outs that saw them take on each other for a short time. It happened with Hayes, Gordy, and Roberts. At this point in time, Buddy Jack Roberts was almost immobile in the ring and had taken up managing. The Samoan Swat Team needed a manager, so they were given Roberts. Given that Roberts was on the outs with the 'Birds at the time, it was only logical to send them after Hayes. It gave Hayes the opportunity to give a small rub to Steve Cox, who World Class was trying to get over. It made for some pretty good matches and helped establish the SST as a very good tag team.
Andy Thomas wants me to do some divine booking.
If HBK now has God as his tag partner, what do you think His finisher would be and what would He call it?? I figure it probably goes straight into a pin situation because he is God afterall. (I would also think He would be more in line for a singles push than tag run.)
I don't like this angle. At all. That said, I think it's okay to have a little fun with this. There are two possible finishes here. Either "Divine Intervention" which would have to be something beautiful but deadly, like a backdrop driver...or simply "The Hand of God", which would be a simple HUGE right hand a la Ronnie Garvin or a left hook like Johnny B. Badd. But not like Regal's "Power of the Punch", for obvious reasons.
Richard Davidson, Jr. passed this bit of information along regarding ESPN's Cheap Seats.
I saw the bit on Ask 411 concerning the video segments of wrestling that appear on the show Cheap Seats. The show is regularly shown at 7:30pm west coast time on ESPN Classic and you can sort of look at it as Mystery Science Theatre 3000's sports version. They take old footage from all of ABC Sports sources, including "Wild World Of Sports" and the ESPN networks, and make jokes about what they are watching. They cover all kinds of things from spelling bees to Superstars from the 70s to vintage trick skateboarding. It's a really funny show to me and you can check out their site at...
http://www.cheapseats.tv/index.html
The two wrestling episodes are ICW Wrestling in season 1 & 3 and Mid-South Wrestling in season 1. It's interesting to see some of the wrestlers that pop up on these shows. The IWC episode from season 3 has Randy Savage, Elizabeth, and (this is the only name that I remember him as) Leapin' Lanny Poffo. The Mid-South episode has the Iron Sheik and a momentary glimpse of Ted DIbiasse. As someone who watched the 80s WWF like a hawk, it was fun to see their early days.
Thanks a lot, Richard. Cool stuff indeed.
Michigan Meadows hits the way back machine in the women's division.
Remember the Jumping Bomb Angels? Years ahead of their time. Any idea where they are now? Also were they and the Glamour Girls the only two teams to ever hold the short lived WWF Womens Tag Team Titles?
I remember them showing up on television a couple of times and never seeing them again. They did some incredible stuff, even for the 80's, and were as you said, years ahead of their time. The Jumping Bomb Angels were Noriyoi Tateno & Itsuki Yamazaki and had a six month reign as WWF Women's Tag team Champions, from January to June of 1988. Tateno continued wrestling in Japan until about the year 2000, capturing the AJW, All Asia, and LLPW singles titles through her career. She finished up competing mostly in six-woman matches. Yamazaki had been in the game for quite a while when she started teaming with Tateno in 1987. She debuted in 1980 and retired in 1991, winning the All Japan Women's Pro Wrestling singles title and the WWWA tag team titles.
Jay asks about protecting the talent.
Just a few quick questions regarding the 1980's WWF. First, it seemed as though whenever two marquee names squared off on free tv (say, even two upper mid-carders like Dino Bravo versus Brutus Beefcake), the match wouold always end in a non-pinfall decision. Was this done to protect the talent from looking bad on television?
Also, why did you never see any "name" superstar lose by submission back in the 80's? You would never see a guy like Randy Savage or Jake Roberts get beat with a submission move. In fact, the only known wrestlers getting beat by submission in the WWF then were Koko Beware & Terry Taylor. Why was this? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
You've pretty much got it. The non-finishes were to keep both guys looking strong and set up return matches at house shows and for later television. Knowing the guys went to a non-finish the week before meant they were going to try EVEN HARDER to beat each other, right? So if they're at the house show, you GOTTA go see it! Solid plan. As for never losing by submission? Same thing. Unless you were a marquee jobber like Koko or Terry Taylor, you didn't lose by submission. Submissions mean you literally "gave up" which is not a quality you want associated with your marquee stars unless you're using them to build another main eventer.
Izerman from NJ wraps us up with an odd question about Dudley Moore. Dudley Moore?
I was flipping through channels and saw Andre the Giant in a movie. He was standing by a limosine as Dudley Moore came out of a wedding. It looked like Dudley had just married the daughter of another wrestler. There were several large men in the background by the limo that could have been wrestlers, but there's no mistaking Andre. What's the movie and the reason for his involvement?
The movie was Micki and Maude, and was a typical Dudley Moore comedy for the 80's. Moore played a bigamist who needed to keep the women in his life from meeting each other, but (oh no!) they both get pregnant. Dun dun dunnnnn. I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know who the daughter is a daughter to in the movie, but the other wrestlers that you'll catch are Jack Armstrong, Big John Studd, Cheif Jay Strongbow, Madman O'Rourke, and referee Gene LeBell.
And that, my friends, as they say...is that. Check out the rules and hit me up. I'm out for seven.
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