Ask 411 Wrestling: 08.16.06: Black Wrestlers, Hart-Hogan, Kevin Kelly, and More!
Posted by Chris Clarke on 08.16.2006
Would you consider Vince unable to book black wrestlers? Things get political in this week’s edition of Ask 411 Wrestling!!
Hey yo.
Time for another wonderful edition of Ask 411. Thank you all for your questions, as I've got a bunch in the que and am always looking for more. Keep on sending them in please, and don't ever hesitate to write in corrections!
Errata:
Steve takes issue:
I know it's a tough job and nobody's paying you for it, but... "I invite the populace to do the research for those and write them in"? Jeez, man, just answer the questions. This is why you get all this flak you're always complaining about. I used to love Ask 411, so I still read sometimes, but every time I make that mistake lately you do something like this that really pisses me off. And maybe try to address questions fully without dismissing them - Lillian Garcia's problem isn't that she announces Canadians as being from the States, she trips over their names, announces people as being champions when they're not, and generally doesn't seem to even follow the product enough to be able to not make obvious mistakes like that. So, given that she's still around, do you think she'll ever screw up enough to be fired? ANSWER THE QUESTION. And the problem with Randy Savage isn't him being too crazy to show up, it's that Vince himself has said he'll never appear on WWE television again. I know you don't like to discuss rumours, but probably at least you should MENTION the Stephanie McMahon/Savage rumour that even Dave Meltzer says is most likely true which might be the main reason for that. Dude, at least just try to get it together. These are not difficult things. On the other hand, when you DO seem to give a crap about answering questions, you have some super interesting info to share (like the going indie rates thing - that really sheds some light on the inner workings of the business). It just sucks that sometimes you just throw stuff away. The info on the top gates isn't rocket science to find, man. Google "largest crowds wrestling" and click on the first link for at least one fairly credible source. You were pretty close with your guesses, but for Pete's sake, would it have been that hard to at least make the effort? Come on. (Ed note: I personally believe that people like challenges... but I guess others just want the world handed to them. Potato-potato)
Sage starts us off with a WOO!: The first time I remember hearing the "Wooo~!" from the crowds after a knife-edge chop was in mid-1998, when Flair and WCW were embroiled in litigation concerning Flair's infamous Thunder no-show. At the time, the crowds really wanted to see Flair come back, so along with "We Want Flair!" chants directed at Eric Bischoff, they also made it a point to imitate Ric Flair's shout whenever someone hit a knife-edge chop. I can't tell you when it began, if WCW or ECW crowds originated the response, or even if it was due to the Flair/WCW controversy, but it's the first memory I have of crowds going "Wooo~!" after knife-edge chops.
Reinaldo disagrees!: The audience "Whoo"ing during a knife edge chop started in 1991 when Flair was fired by Jim Herd from WCW right before the Great American Bash and was no longer in the main event. The crowd would also chant "We Want Flair" throughout the entire Pay per view. It died down after a while but was definitely made a comeback in ECW.
Douglas points out a few things: From what a few TiVo users have told me, their TiVo data is included in Nielson ratings.
In the 90s, the shows at the Tokyo Dome (the big January show) used to get 60,000+ in attendance. WrestleMania 17 (Houston, I think) and 18 (Toronto) had over 65,000.
Pre-Wrestlemania, I think the shows with the highest attendance had to be the WWF shows at Shea Stadium - something like 40,000 in attendance for a few of those. (Ed Note: Don't forget about the 60K+ that came to Exhibition Stadium in Toronto for a house show Hogan vs. Orndorf in 1986!)
Eric talks HoF: And warrior being in the hall of fame is nothing like letting sid or lex in. Warrior was easily a dozen times more popular then the two combined. The fact that he has zero wrestling ability and could still accomplish that proves he should be HoF bound. I dont believe he will be inducted though.
And next to guys like John Studd, Don Muraco, George Steele, Bob Orton. etc. Sid and Lex wouldnt look out of place at all.
(Ed Note: Well Sid is a multiple time WWF/WCW champion, a main eventer from the early 90s through the early 00s, and an ex-horseman. Sid also had TWO Mania main events. (even if one was the worst Mania of all time) Warrior had one Mania main event, and about what - 3 years of popularity? If you stretched all the runs into one? Sure - Warrior drew more money in the short term, but Sid had a greater impact across years than Warrior did. It's a toss up really who is more deserving in my opinion.)
The Jza rants…: Before I get to my question, that dude isn't the only one to hate the King Booker gimmick - I personally cannot stand that kind of uninspired gimmicky shit - Ok, so he's arrogant, find a more original way to get that accross that suits the wrestler at hand. Isn't UPN mostly a black network from what I hear anyway? As such, why is the first champion the network could potantially really get behind from a promotional standpoint doing such lame 6 yr old shit? I'm not saying cos he's bnlack he should be a pimp or anything, but surely they could come up with something just a little more relevant. That whole gimmick made me not even want to read the spoilers or watch the wwe.com videos for smackdown cos it totally kills the show for me, and i reckon the ratings show I'm not the only one. Stone Cold, The Rock, HHH, Shawn Michaeals, Rey Mysterio, Eddie Guerrero NONE of these guys got over in the last 8-10 years with gay gimmicks like this that are best relegated to the next generation/Hogan era. Black wrestlers are the one thing WWE has never been able to handle, and in my view when they do work out how to promote black wrestlers properley will be when the next boom period hits. (On that note, how cool a manager would dolemite make?!) But a gimmick should be an extension of the wrestler's personality, not some tacked-on cookie cutter bullshit that hasn't flown in the last 10 years or so. The closest wrestling has come to realising this is with New Jack who although is a shit wrestler is arguably one of the best talkers on the indies in my opinion and perfect manager material for a new talent such as Da Beast or Elijah Burke, or even Ruckuss is they bought him in.
(Ed note: I disagree that it has to be an extension of the wrestlers' personality – heck – how do you know that this arrogant side isn't in this case? We don't know the real Booker Huffman, he could he an little shit now! Either way, I don't think that Vince doesn't know how to black wrestlers… maybe Dusty doesn't! Your point about the overly-gimmicked people not being put into a legendary category is sound, however. When you break out the King gimmick, it means that you need that little extra umph to get that crowd reaction. That's why Booker has the crown AND his wife out there – to help him out.
As far as Jack being the only real "black" character that works, I think that speaks very badly to the Black community. While the "gangsta" aspect to culture is legit and should not suppressed, I don't believe that all black people identify with that particular part of their community, nor is it the only one that works. The Rock saw himself as black (since he was half), Ahmed Johnson would have worked had the dude not been mentally unstable, Faarooq was successful (and an ex-WCW champ), not to mention JYD and Abby the Butcher. While I am somewhat crossing promotions here, there have been some very successful examples of black champs. I do think that it's a market to be expanded into, but it doesn't mean you have to go the route of creating another gangsta gimmick.
Thomas points out an error: You've probably already heard this, but Flair did not slap himself bloody during The God of All Promos at the final Nitro. He mentioned " When was the last time you went for an hour, cut yourself 5-times and bled for 45 minutes, when were you there? " which might have led you to think that. I can't be postive, but I believe he did it when accepting Taker's Wrestlemania 18 challenge some years back. I know he did it during his Triple H feud, but he had been previously busted open then. (Ed note: I realize that I may have been getting promos mixed up, but it was during a Taker/Flair promo for Mania 18 that Flair did the forehead slapping, I did get the blading reference confused from that).
JRC the III pops in with a few: 1) cable boxes and ratings. Please don't quote my name on this one,(on the others would be fine), but from knowing quite a few senior level Technicians with Comcast, Charter, Cox, and TWC, My understanding is that some of the newer Digital boxes are privately setup with the cable companies permission with firm-ware upgrades and an extra expansion card/chip to test new abilities that monitor both the shows recorded, and then the quarterly breakdown as per % of time spent in play vs. spent in ff, and subtract playback time from rewinding. I'm not sure how it all works, but they are testing this. My limited understanding is that they only monitor playback within 48 hours of the air time, record two sets of ratings (one for it was recorded and one for how much was watched) and divide out the average. That would explain why you can get updated ratings up to two to three weeks after the air date now, though.
2) As an Indy wrestler and doing almost solely hard-core and extreme-core matches, I averaged in the $150 to $250 range no expenses paid, on average in the US and Canada, and about $200 (US equivalent) up to the thousand dollar mark, and all expenses in Japan. The rare non-hardcore matches I have never got me more than $100. And your right, they don't just want blood, they want gore. I've been hit with things that just aren't meant to be in any ring, even ECW/XPW/CZW, like industrial gas weed-weed-whackers. My suggestion to anyone interested in wrestling after 12 years of concussions and stitches and super-glue; would be to go to a good school (wrestling and real school) and stay away from the gore-fest type matches/companies. And have a good standard education to fall back on when you land in a wheel-chair. A chair to the head hurts, a sink, or glass, or pin-ball machine can kill you. It's probably not worth it for most.
3) Last one, and quick, regarding Lita, Miss Amy, As I knew her, started out sloppy, but got real good in the ECW days. I think a move to Japan would do her good, as the mixed matches there, combining ladders and tables and stuff with real wrestling, would give her a chance to get some needed ring time, then come back to WW(W)F/E(nt). (Ed note: While I agree that Lita has her moments, I wouldn't say she ever got real good. While she could hit a good spot or two, one doesn't lose their ability to work a 5 minute match. Good at spots - yes. Good at working? I wouldn't say so. Plus, I think she's actually up there with Sabu in self-harm, just in terms of not knowing how to protect herself!)
David writes: Summerslam 92 could be the WWE's biggest event since it suposedly drew a legit
80,000+
I got this from wikipedia:
In 1992, the World Wrestling Federation (WWF) drew a sellout of 80,355 when SummerSlam was hosted at Wembley Stadium. Due to the controversy surrounding the attendance figure of 93,173 at WrestleMania III at the Pontiac Silverdome (there are claims that the event only drew 78,000 and the WWF inflated the number), Wembley Stadium may hold the record for the biggest crowd ever at a WWF/E event. Currently it is rumoured that the WWE are in talks to hold Wrestlemania 25 or 26 at the rebuilt Wembley Stadium.
Ron M pops in: In regards to your addressing the issue of whether or not Demolition will make it in the wrestling Hall of Fame, well that's all up to Vince I suppose. However, if it was just up to achievement, they certainly deserve in. It is easy but unfair to disregard them as "Road Warrior" ripoffs. Would you dismiss the Rockers in the same breath since they were "Rock N Roll Express" ripoffs?
If Vince and Bill Eady ever get on speaking terms again, the Demolition is worthy of Hall of Fame status. Here's their case:
While they were originally ripoffs (I'll give you that) they were a couple of the first wrestlers who were so badass as heels they started getting cheers and had to be turned face. They were the most popular tag team during the heighth of the Hulkamania PPV era. They held the tag team titles on three occasions when it was hard to get ahold of said titles. Other great teams from the same era: Rockers 0, Hart Foundation 2, British Bulldogs 1, Brainbusters 1. I believe they have held the Tag Titles more days than any other team in history. For Example: The Dudley Boys have the most title reigns at 8 -- but they only held the titles for a total of 278 days whereas Demolition had the titles three times for 699 total days.
They had a better WWF career than the Legion of Doom, and certainly they were better than the already inducted Blackjacks. They should be in and as Bret had nothing but nice things to say about them on his DVD, he can induct them too. (Ed note: AH! but the Blackjacks worked backstage! That's what really got them in.)
Kenny asks: About Arnold's question concerning the 5 largest events in wrestling history as far as attendance, according to http://www.100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/pages/other/lrgcrwd.htm, here are
the five largest wrestling events in terms of attendance:
1) World Peace Festival on April 28, 1995 at the Pyongyang Stadium in Pyongyang, North Korea drew 150,000 fans. The next day (April 29, 1995) the event drew 190,000
2) WWF WrestleMania 3 on March 29, 1987 at the Pontiac Silverdome in Pontiac, Michigan drew 93,173 fans (although according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WrestleMania_III the actual number was around
78,000)
3) WWF SummerSlam on August 29, 1992 at Wembley Stadium in London, England drew 80,355 fans
4) WWF The Big Event on August 28, 1986 at the CNE Stadium in Toronto, Canada drew 74,080 fans
5) New Japan's Tokyo Dome Card #14: "The Inoki Final" on April 4, 1998 at the Tokyo Dome in Tokyo, Japan drew 70,000 fans
TIME FOR A SET OF QUESTIONS!
Aaron asks I've often heard about Jeff Jarrett's shoot when he returned to Raw from WCW but that's about the extent of what I've heard. Who all did he talk about and is there anywhere I can find a trascript of it? Ask 411 Sorry – I've had no luck finding this one. I wanted to include it here, so that we could open it up to the populace with the hope of finding it!
Dwayne writesHow come the Rockers were left off of Summerslam 1991? I find it a little ironic because they were on a roll back then, having scored two major victories over Barbarian and Haku at Wrestlemania, and that outstanding match they had with the Orient Express at Royal Rumble 1991. One of my all-time fav. RRs because of the commentary by Monsoon and Hot Rod
Ask 411 While I am not entirely sure of the proper timeline, this would fit around the time that the group was heading towards a demise. Here is an entry from Wikipedia about it:
"After a high profile fan favourite run as part of the WWF's tag team ranks in the late 80s and early 90s with their combination of agility, innovation, speed, and teamwork, the team broke up following a heated dispute backstage. Also of note was their very numerous (and increasingly colourful/adorned) in-ring attires, a trait shared with the Ultimate Warrior, who was employed by the WWF around the same time as them.
Reportedly, the reasons for the split stemmed from the filming of commercials for a WWF breakfast cereal, in which the Rockers and several other WWF wrestlers made appearances. Michaels learned that he and Jannetty were paid about half of what the others wrestlers received, and allegedly was so furious that he told Jannetty to call Vince McMahon and inform him that they were quitting. However, Michaels did not carry out his decision to leave the WWF with Jannetty because he needed to support his family, and told McMahon he knew nothing about Jannetty quitting. Michaels, in his side of the story from his biography, says it was Jannetty's idea to talk to McMahon and that the notion of quitting was never brought up until Jannetty talked to Vince without telling Michaels of his plan. Michaels claimed he had no interest in quitting the company and refused to stand by Jannetty in his decision.
This led to the breaking up of the Rockers and Shawn Michaels' heel turn. Onscreen, the incident was not mentioned; the reasons behind the split were simply that Michaels wanted to become a singles wrestler and became frustrated with the team's lack of titles. Michaels and Jannetty appeared to have reconciled on Brutus Beefcake's "Barber Shop" interview segment, but it ended with Michaels hitting Jannetty with a superkick (later dubbed the Sweet Chin Music) and then throwing him through a glass window. While the superkick and Jannetty crashing through the window were worked (that is, following the script set out by the bookers), Michaels was very stiff with the kick, causing Jannetty to legitimately black out in the process.
"I don't have a clue!" Shawn Michaels said when Gene Okerlund asked him what he was thinking when he tossed Jannetty through the window."
411's awesomedude Ron Gamble asksOn the 6/2/00 episode of "ECW on TNN," Paul Heyman made his famous "shoot" comments about hating TNN (I'm not a genius; I had to look up the episode). His comments were censored by TNN, with a crawler that said they support the company, and that we should ignore "this gentleman's temper tantrum." That promo was played in full, with sound, on "The Rise & Fall of ECW."
However, later on that episode, Joel Gertner was also censored, while a crawler read that they were having technical difficulties. At the very end of Gertner's comments, Paul Heyman pops up on screen and says something like, "Go ahead and kick us off the air, motherf***ers!" Was this promo ever transcribed, and if so, where can I find it?
Ask 411 Sorry – I've had no luck finding this one. I wanted to include it here, so that we could open it up to the populace with the hope of finding it!
James asksWhat's the deal with Big Guido, anyway? I never saw him in ECW, and he apparently only made 1 appearance there (Heatwave 96). I haven't found anything about him appearing in ECW more than the one show (and One Night Stand I & II), or ever wrestling in the indies or Mexico or Japan.
So who is he, and how does he get to be a part of the New ECW instead of JT Smith, Tracy Smothers, Sal E. Graziano, and most importantly, The Big Don Tommy Rich?
Ask 411 I think this is just a case of Vince wanting to re-write history. Big Sal was really unhealthy – like, could drop at anytime. So it's easier to just get the big dude who would work cheap, and bring him in for a shot or two. He's clearly gone now, with the FBI being managed by Trinity instead.
The other guys are just either old/retired, or just way too mouthy for their own good (T.S. specifically)
Joe M asks: In 1993, if the original plan was going to be Hart-Hogan at SummerSlam, with Hart winning the title back, and Hogan balked, WHY did Yoko get a really long reign as champ? Wouldn't they just have put the title back on Hart at SummerSlam by going over YOKO instead? It doesn't make sense: Vince wants Bret back as champ, so he wants him to go over Hogan... Hogan vetoes but agrees to lose to Yoko at KOTR...Wouldn't Vince have just put the title back on Bret at SS if he really wanted him to be the champ again? Lex Luger sucked, btw.
ask 411: I think it just boils down to how much Vince wanted Yoko to job. I don't think that Vince saw as big of a problem with Hogan laying down to Bret, but Bret beating the bigman had to be a much bigger build than just a few months. It's funny how politics works, isn't it? They were willing to just flip the title back to Bret, but Hogan balked – then they could have flipped the title back to Bret anyway, but then Vince balked. Such is the way it goes!
rich asks: First, you are right on the money with your comments on the state of tag teams as a whole in professional wrestling today. Gone are the days of great feuds with legitimate tag teams and in its place we have 4 singles wrestlers meet up because they have nothing better to do. While today you may have 1 or 2 honest teams (I could only come up with MNM off the top of my head and they recently split) back in the early to mid 80's their were great tag team battles. Teams like the Rock and Roll Express, Midnight Express, Minnesota Wrecking Crew and the Road Warriors carried on long running feuds that were slowly built over the course of a year and actually meant something. Not going by belts won, but who in your opinion was the greatest real tag team ever?
ask 411: This is an easy question for me, because I believe that Tag-teams that could draw money on their own are to be considered the best. Therefore, the select group of the Horsemen, The Road Warriors, maybe the Freebirds, Midnight Express, Rock N' Roll Express… a handful of others like the Outlaws, etc. But overall – I'd put Road Warriors. They drew the most money nationally and internationally. Simple answer!
Adam asksI'm dying to know, whatever happened to Kevin Kelly? I see him doing the occasional DVD interview, but that's it. His interviews with rock were always hilarious with me, and I thought they played off each other well. The nose picking one was friggin hilarious.
ask 411 Kevin Kelly was fiiiirrrreeeeeeeeeeddddddd. Vince canned him as a cost-cutting measure, mainly because Coach was doing the same act, but had way more upside. Did you know KK was a trained wrestler too? I wonder if he'd ever start doing that again!!
Billy asks: I remember a jobber named Reno Riggins that for some reason got a decent pop from the crowd before getting destroyed by Duggan or Warrior or whoever. Can you clarify? ask 411: I could not tell you why he was so popular – maybe it was a girlie-pop because he was pretty?
Jesse asks: What's your thoughts on why the concept of the wrestling manager with his stable of wrestlers, as in Bobby Heenan, Jimmy Hart, Slick, Mr. Fuji (focusing on 1980's and early 1990's WWF here) eventually vanished?
They were great heel mouthpieces for wrestlers who didn't have much microphone talent. I know the 1990's became the era of the clique, which had its high points with DX and NWO. But do you think they would ever swing back to this heel manager with stable setup?
ask 411: I think its because wrestlers mainly don't get hired now unless they can do all of their jobs – work, look good and talk. Back in the day, the body was the most important aspect, above all others. Therefore, you had guys who would juice themselves stupid, but couldn't talk nor really work. Therefore, you needed these guys to have a heat machine to get them over. That's why you had all these heel managers to add that dynamic to the programs. It was simply to help less-talented people look like superstars.
Brandon asks rapidfire!: exactly is the heat between Hogan and Macho Man about? When did it all happen? I'm not sure if Macho Man thought Elizabeth was having an affair with Hogan or what, so could you clear this up for me please?
2. We've seen the WWE World Title and WWE Intercontinental Title defended in many special matches, such as ladder and cage and even Hell In The Cell, but has the European title been defended in any special matches like that? I cannot think of any special matches where the European has been defended in a ladder match or whatever. If there is, could you please list a few?
3. I was watching my Jake The Snake Roberts DVD set, and there are about 3 extras, that are promos involving The Ultimate Warrior. I believe Jake was trying to show Ultimate Warrior the dark side, or explain what the Undertaker was like or went through, but I don?t remember Warrior having a match with Taker or Jake. Could you explain what the promos were about and if it lead to a match of some sorts?
ask 411: Whew, these are big questions!!
1) While Hogan claims its all false, Macho blames Hogan for breaking up him and Elizabeth. Liz was living with Hogan's family for a while when their relationship was falling apart, leading to the totally expected heat. Also, there is some professional jealousy of course, since Hogan beat Macho for most of his championships, some of them in pretty embarrassing fashion. Hogan certainly has politicked Macho pretty bad in the past, so its not surprising that there is heat. Doesn't stop them from doing business occasionally though!
2) The European Title was pretty much a joke title that never really got defended anywhere special. The title was unifed with the IC Title in a ladder match between Jeff Hardy (euro) and RVD (IC), but only the IC Title was hanging in the ring at the time. Outside of that, it's been handed over to a few people a few times, also defended in 3 way matches. But it's not the sort of title defended in a cage, or anything like that. Why? Because it's a jobber title.
Every week, I will answer a number of questions (schedule permitting) regarding professional wrestling. It can be on any topic – new, old, national, international, whatever. You can even ask me IWC questions if you so desire, I will do my best to hunt down the answers. The column will also be filled with humour, commentary, and occasional ranting. It also may not be P.C. – so be forewarned!
This column will be appearing every Wednesday afternoon. I will not hesitate to open up questions to the audience if I am stumped, and I will provide "errata" warnings if I'm proven to have been smokin' da pipe.
All questions and responses should be directed to cjc739@mail.usask.ca. I would be happy to hear from you on any topic at all.
And I guess that's it for now – no gimmicks, no silly lists of rules – just send me some darn email. This is about the free-exchange of information – nothing more, nothing less. Let's just have some freakin' fun and actually publish this column with some sort of consistency. To do that – I NEED YOUR HELP! SEND IN YOUR QUESTIONS!
