411 Fact or Fiction 12.14.06: Joe/Angle, Kenny, Batista/Taker, More

Posted by Ashish on 12.14.2006

It's week ONE HUNDRED AND NINE of Fact or Fiction with Ari Berenstein, Stuart Carapola, and whether Kurt Angle will ever work a high profile shoot fight...

Welcome back to another week of 411 Fact or Fiction: Wrestling Edition! This week, 411 Wrestling writers Stuart Carapola and Ari Berenstein debate the Samoa Joe/Kurt Angle problem, Angle as a shoot fighter, Kenny's push, and more! Let's get to it!


1. The Samoa Joe/Kurt Angle program has been a disappointment.

Stuart Carapola: FACT. I really had to think long and hard about this one, because I'm always wary of expecting too much out of a "dream feud" like this and then not getting the payoff I expected, but this really has been a disappointment as much as I would like to say otherwise. First there's the obvious, the matches weren't what I expected, even the one at Turning Point. They weren't BAD matches, but not what I expected. They also didn't have to book Joe-Angle as soon as Angle walked through the door and then the rematch the next month. Christmas isn't Christmas if you can open all your presents the day after Thanksgiving. The main problem that I have with this feud is that it's being tainted by things that don't need to happen. I mean things like Angle pinning Joe clean on Impact three nights before Turning Point, essentially going up 2-0. I also mean things like the ref bump, low blow, and chair in the Turning Point match. For a feud that should be based on straight up competition, these kinds of things are just ruining "what could have been".

Ari Berenstein: FICTION. Sorry to say that I can't agree with my running buddy Stuart on this one. I personally haven't been disappointed with the program as a whole, although it is true that there are certain smaller things about the feud that did not please me. Yes, the six way challenge on Impact where Angle pinned Joe should not have happened and the whole match should not have happened. I won't defend that match. I will say that there has very quickly and very realistically developed a rivalry between the two. The guys are big dogs in the same yard, and so it was inevitable and in fact believable that they go right for each other. Or, to paraphrase R.P. McMurphy in One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest when he challenges for the unofficial leadership spot in the psych ward--who here is the bull goose looney? I've been the bull goose everywhere I've gone, and I intend for it to be the same here. The UFC like promos which have basically said as much have been downright FANTASTIC. If ALL grudge match promos could be as great as these, then maybe wrestling could start a drastic turnaround in attracting mainstream fans to these fights. As far as Stu's comparison of Christmas and Thanksgiving, what is the VERY thing that happens the day after Thanksgiving? BLACK FRIDAY. The day when everyone goes out to get those presents for Christmas. Only I'm sure there are those who are guilty of opening those presents way before X-Mas. For better or for worse, we live in a "now, now, now" society and so to see the Angle-Joe program so fast after Angle's debut is not all that surprising to me. Finally and most importantly--the matches. The first match was shorter than it could have been, especially for their first match, but the match did kick all sorts of ass and both men went right at each other and held nothing back. Angle bled and took some hard shots. Unless you are a hardcore Joe fan (and I am) and are disappointed that he did not win (I am not) then there isn't much to criticize about that first match. Last week's rematch was tremendous--the crowd was going nuts almost the entire way through, there were some stiff shots, some awesome chain sequences and Joe got Angle to tap not once, but twice. I liked what I saw, even if the ref bump was unnecessary. And even while some of the trimmings of the Angle-Joe feud are unnecessary. I still like what I see.

Score: 0 for 1


2. Kurt Angle will never go through with a high profile shoot fight.

Stuart Carapola: FACT. Kurt Angle has shown that he's willing to flat out make stuff up to get himself some headlines. He was talking about doing into a shootfight before. He also talked about putting on like 40 pounds of muscle after leaving WWE, which he clearly didn't. I think this is just a big work to get us talking. Putting aside whether he'd last thirty seconds in an actual shootfight against a legit opponent, or whether he'd even be medically cleared to do it in the first place, I don't think Angle's a stupid man, and I think (or hope) that he would realize that a real shoot fight would be a really bad idea.

Ari Berenstein: FACT. As much as I respect Angle's talent and ability, he has been exposed as a liar or at the least an exaggerator. He is someone who can't tell the story of the last few years with his addictions and "walking out" on WWE the same way twice. I can't trust anything Angle says in the media these days; his credibility is all shot. I don't believe him when he says he will do a shoot fight. He is a professional wrestler who has the responsibility of carrying TNA on him right now, and MMA is just not going to happen with the goals he wants to accomplish there.

Score: 1 for 2


3. The David Eckstein/AJ Pierzynski angle was a great move by TNA.

Stuart Carapola: FICTION. I don't generally like the involvement of non-wrestling people in the business. If this leads to a straight Eckstein-Pierzynski match, I don't want to see it. I don't think they're big enough names to draw in extra viewers, even from the baseball world. We're not talking about Mike Tyson here. On the other hand, it might not be so bad if they wind up hanging around with real wrestlers who will then fight one another on their charge's behalf, but even still, that can be accomplished without the involvement of outlanders.

Ari Berenstein: FICTION. HELL NO! I'm all aces with Stu here--no way was this a "great move" by TNA. They've done this type of sports-celebrity-gets-involved-in-wrestling deal before and even with the media coverage on CNN, SI or ESPN, there has not been any net increase in fans or PPV buys. Cena-Federline might be a fun and creative angle for WWE, but even with the first week's worth of media attention (and none afterwards), there has not been any considerable change in ratings. Even WWE isn't stupid enough to charge PPV money for that match. I agree with the fans at the impact zone--"We want wrestling." If I want to see sports players fighting it out with each other, I'll tune into the MLB and watch a bench clearing brawl. You don't pay $29.95 to watch celebrities ham it up, have awful promos and plug a book. Then again, if you're TNA, maybe you do.

Score: 2 for 3


---SWITCH!---


4. Kenny deserves the push he is getting.

Ari Berenstein: FICTION. But then again, what is the extent to which anyone who is currently getting pushed deserves the push that he is getting? Does Umaga deserve the push he's getting? Does John Cena? Randy Orton? I don't really think "deserves" is the appropriate modifier for this statement. Is Kenny ready for his involvement with Rated RKO? In some ways he definitely is ready, as in the last several weeks he had slowly become more separated and a stand out from the rest of The Spirit Squad (credit to my bro Chris on that point). He became the leader, the man who spoke out for that group, so certainly the Raw audience is more aware of who he is and that he is supposed to be positioned into the upper echelon. He may very well succeed (he certainly has much more wrestling ability than he has been allowed to show as a member of the Squad). However, I can't say he "deserves" the push. The WWE has always thought of Kenny as the guy who would break out, so they break him out of the pack and ready him for the next big thing while the other Squaders are outta there. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

Stuart Carapola: FACT. The truth of the matter is that I'm happy to see anyone under age 35 get a push these days. I would have been happy with anyone in the Spirit Squad, but since he seems to be the chosen one, great. The upside is that he's still very young and, barring injury, has a great career to look forward to. Assuming they don't cut his legs out from under him for no reason like they have a habit of doing, he's got plenty of time to develop into something more than just "the guy from the Spirit Squad that talks".

Score: 2 for 4


5. Smackdown is currently WWE's best show.

Ari Berenstein: FACT. I'm not even sure if I can properly answer this question considering I haven't been watching Smackdown, like AT ALL, in the past three months or more. I barely watch Raw and barely watch ECW these days, and usually I do not like what I see on either show (with certain exceptions). I have to give it to Smackdown by proxy. That is so sad, all things considered.

Stuart Carapola: FACT. While Raw has become the DX and John Cena show, and ECW has turned into a glorified C-show, Smackdown has been the brand consistently performing well, both in terms of storyline and in-ring action. The matches are easily the best stuff going today in any WWE brand, and I don't think it's a stretch to say that a lot of that has to do with Michael Hayes, someone with a background in wrestling instead of Hollywood, running the show.

Score: 3 for 5


6. Batista vs. The Undertaker at WrestleMania is a match people will pay to see.

Ari Berenstein: FACT. Well, the live crowd in Detroit is already bought and paid for, but will the fine folks at home be willing to lay the scratch down for this match? My gut instinct (and an informal gallop poll of some of my students who are wrestling fans) says yes. The Undertaker is one of the most popular wrestlers of the modern WWE, and people want to see him kick ass. Batista vs. Undertaker is a rare big guy vs. big guy dream match and one that to my recollection hasn't ever happened. All that plus the hook of "title vs. streak" and you've got more than enough going on with the hype of that match to get people wanting to pay to see it. Now as to whether or not it would be any good...that's a different "fact or fiction".

Stuart Carapola: FACT. Let's face it, title vs. streak will draw. I think it would be a foregone conclusion, since it would be a terrible idea to have 40-something Batista end Undertaker's streak, and I really don't think he deserves that rub with his attitude over the last year. But while I don't think it would be a proper main event for the show, it would certainly do well as one of the top matches, and who else could they possibly put Undertaker with that would be the slightest bit compelling these days?

Score: 4 for 6


These two finish 4 for 6! Join us next week for more Fact or Fiction!