411’s Buy or Sell 4.21.07: PWG Becoming ROH West, SHIMMER on National TV, Mergers and More!
Posted by Larry Csonka on 04.21.2007
Week THREE features Bayani Domingo vs. Ryan Byers as they discuss the finer points of SHIMMER and Pro Wrestling Guerrilla!
Welcome one and all to WEEK THREE of BUY or SELL. For those that missed the debut column, here is the explanation. BUY or SELL is very similar in nature to Fact or Fiction, as a matter of fact you could consider it Fact or Fiction's little brother. The main difference is that BUY or SELL will focus on the US Independent scene, Lucha Libre, Japanese Wrestling and basically anything that isn't mainstream wrestling, WWE and or TNA. This allows for these areas to get some more attention and for you, the reader, to learn even more about the sport of wrestling.
Week Three's Match-Up:
Pro Wrestling Guerrilla enthusiast and Truth B. Told author Bayani Domingo vs. SHIMMER expert and The Impact Crater author Ryan Byers!
Because of PWG's proximity to Mexico they should look into booking Lucha Libre talent on their shows in order to distance themselves from other major Indy Feds.
Bayani Domingo : SELL. Tough call because this would be a pretty decent fit geographically with PWG and would be one way to really differentiate PWG from other feds that use the same workers they do. SoCal is still a good market for Lucha Libre and I know PWG does have some connections to some companies South of the boarder. I think PWG could possibly put together some interesting International match ups now that they seem to be in good with Dragon Gate and apparently now AJPW. Bringing in a team from Mexico for their DDT Tag Tournament in May would have been interesting. That could be a real chance to have some exciting match ups that would not be able to be scene in any other company if they booked the right talent. The problem is "booking the right talent" is easier said than done.
Good and popular luchadors aren't cheap. The options are either paying out of the nose for a AAA or CMLL team or find cheaper local talent who may fairly unknown and not interesting enough to spike DVD sales and attendance. PWG booked Bryan Danielson vs. CIMA for May, but imagine Mistico vs. Danielson or CIMA, now THAT would be a draw. Too bad I doubt they can afford to book Mistico and the local talent I've seen (mostly who work the former New Japan Inoki Dojo) are not good enough to work in high profile matches. Besides PWG does have 5 lucha-esque workers in El Generico, Quicksilver, Los Luchas (Phoenix Star and Zokre), and NEMESIS. Although to be fair El Generico and Quicksilver, aka El Hombre Blanco En Mascarado on WSX, are about as Mexican as apple pie and Pabst Blue Ribbon.
Outside of the Battle of Los Angeles or All Star Weekend 6 doubt PWG would look into booking more Lucha talent especially because lately on the SoCal Indy scene it's been getting a bad name thanks to the now New Japan-less Inoki Dojo. I can't see El Hijo de Santo, Blue Panther, or Latin Lover being booked having too much pull with your average Indy fan or your average Lucha fan caring about them facing off against a Davey Richards or Disco Machine. But I think the most compelling argument against booking Luchadors is that the fascination with Lucha went out when WCW died, Puro is what's hip now daddy-o, oh yeah, it's the cat's meow. So knowing PWG and their booking tendencies I doubt adding more lucha libre is going to be a priority or a strong possibility since they don't have ROH or TNA type deep pockets to book a Mistico level Luchador. Then again El Generico vs. Cibernetico for the title would be a pretty intriguing match up if only for their dueling chants. Ole Ole Ole Ole…Ciber Ciber.
Ryan Byers : BUY. Oooo . . . disagreement on the first question. Bayani and I are going to get CATTY~! (Speaking of, what's this "cat's meow" bit? Am I working with the lost member of the Greasers here?) Anyway, I actually don't think that bringing in lucha talent would be nearly as difficult or as unsuccessful as Mr. Domingo suggests. Want a perfect example? Look no further than CHIKARA. Mike Quackenbush's wacky little promotion out in Pennsylvania managed to bring in a crew of luchadores for their recent King of Trios tournament, and one member of that team, Lince Dorado, has been brought back in for a few shots. In fact, an early CHIKARA show even featured the original La Parka. Now I'm certainly not privy to the financial statements of both companies, but it seems to me that Chikky Pro is probably in as good of financial shape as PWG, and they may even be the smaller of the two companies. Granted, that might not mean that PWG can afford to bring in the likes of Mistico or Negro Casas, but they should be able to swing at least SOME lucha talent on their shows if the concern is diversifying the roster and showing the fans something a little bit different.
The other thing to consider is that, if done properly, bringing in the right lucha names could actually result in PWG shows grossing more money. Granted, Bayani is in SoCal while I'm thousands of miles away in Michigan, but it's my understanding that lucha spot shows in California and other areas with major Latino markets (including Chicago and Charlotte of all places) do incredibly good business if they manage to rake in the right couple of names, even if they have to pad the bottom of the card with local American wrestlers. Though we're talking about PWG bringing in one or two guys as opposed to enough main eventers for an entire show, I think that it could create a substantial increase in attendance if it was promoted properly amongst the Hispanic community in Southern California.
0 for 1.
With PWG's increased use of East Coast and Dragon Gate talent, as well as the upcoming Tag Tournament and Battle of Los Angeles Tournaments, they have essentially become "ROH WEST."
Bayani Domingo : SELL. For now. I think PWG does mirror RoH in a couple of ways, whether that is intentional or not is up for debate. Because the more talented and recognizable Indy talent in the US is a fixed commodity, having similar talent that is already established is almost unavoidable. Also every Indy promotion has their own tournaments, but I think the biggest red flag was when Dragon Gate talent started showing up on the West Coast. To be fair PWG aren't the only culprits of using talent already established on other Indy feds. RoH used CZW guys last year in their big feud and retained a few, they also booked PAC from England after PWG did and they are featuring El Generico and Kevin Steen in the tag division.
What I think separates PWG from RoH beside their use of SoCal talent and the fact that 6 of the wrestlers actually own the company, is that they use a lot more comedy in their matches then RoH does. You'd never see a "Tuxedo Match" in RoH…although I wish I had never seen one in PWG either. Also PWG runs more WWE like storylines and tends to be a lot freer with the way they let their talent portray themselves. "Comedy Face" Christopher Daniels has appeared from time to time, Austin Aries wrestled a few matches as a tune up to his Austin Starr gimmick a few times, and well if you saw WSX then you know that The Human Tornado, Joey Ryan, and Disco Machine would have difficulties fitting into RoH, though not impossible because who doesn't like baby oil and ass tassels? Am I right? Huh? Still it works for PWG.
The major difference is that PWG sometimes has to work with shows filled with mainly local guys and not too many big name Indy talents or "Fly ins" as it were. RoH is at the point where if they tried to release a card with just Strong, Aries, Delirious, and a bunch of RoH students the place would probably be bare. PWG has a smaller audience willing to put up with "low watt" cards where as RoH goes balls out each time. With its use of local talent, occasional lucha talent, aversions to stables, and comedy stylings I think PWG has established it's own style different than RoH. However, if given the chance to be able to consistently book similar RoH talent at the expense of comedy and local workers, I don't doubt PWG would jump at the chance. Especially if it meant selling a few hundreds more DVDs every month.
Ryan Byers : SELL. I have never considered the two to be in any way similar, aside from the slight overlap in talent that was already mentioned. No matter what, you're always going to see six PWG owners appearing on the shows, and that alone will help to make sure that the flavor remains distinct from Ring of Honor. The comedy is a major point of differentiation as well. Though ROH has Delirious an periodic drop-ins by the Artist Formerly Known as Ebessan (I can never member his new name), they by and large take things rather seriously. Plus you're never going to see ROH with a couple of commentators that sit around on an alternate audio track and basically spend the entire time making fun of the product as it goes on . . . though a lot of people did consider "Jimmy Bower" to be a pretty big joke. So, essentially, I agree with everything that Mr. Domingo said.
Also, why in the world are the two tournaments mentioned as factors that make PWG and ROH similar? Though ROH used to do a trios tournament and has annually held its "Survival of the Fittest" card, they're hardly known for a gigantic, multi-day tournament with a ton of outside wrestlers being flown in. Actually, ROH is just about the only big Indy that DOESN'T do this sort of thing, with IWA Mid-South, CHIKARA, CZW, and whoever runs the Jeff Peterson Cup all having their own variations n the concept.
1 for 2.
PWG should consider working with ROH in the same manner as FIP in order to capitalize on talent exchanges and avoid booking conflicts.
Bayani Domingo : BUY. I'm not exactly sure what FIP's relationship with RoH's is, but I have a pretty good idea. They're kind of like a mix between the D-League for RoH and the way that El Dorado works with Dragon Gate. Or as far as I can tell. Still not on the same level as RoH but still they look like they're part of the same "system" now. PWG shares some talent with RoH but geographically they aren't compatible. As well FIP has had some RoH stars as past champions (Homicide, Danielson, Strong) where as PWG's list is a little less RoH based (Adam Pearce ,Frankie Kazarian, Super Dragon, Joey Ryan, Human Tornado, El Generico, Kevin Steen) with AJ Styles being the only exception. It's funny that FIP and PWG have both only been around since 2003 yet have gone a long way in just the past year to establish themselves as the main players below RoH. I think there are two things hurting PWG most that aren't as much of a problem for FIP: credibility and booking talent.
For example, Homicide and Danielson were FIP champions in 2004 and 2005 before FIP started working more closely with RoH. Both guys were seen as top-level guys in RoH, which added some credibility. PWG in 2006 was dominated by … Joey Ryan. Who is now wrestling in the under card in Tuxedo matches, plus I haven't seen an a$$ that unnecessarily over exposed since Andy Milonakis. Also look at PWG's current champion, El Generico. While he and Kevin Steen (another former PWG Champ) are now getting run as tag title contenders he basically comes in as a relative unknown, FIP's champion (Roderick Strong) is one of the Main Event guys already and gets to wear his belt to the ring and defend it on shows. I haven't seen the big green PWG strap on the line against Jason Blade and Eddie Edwards yet.
The other problem is booking conflicts. There are times when cards are changed in PWG because of booking conflicts in RoH as well as storylines being put on hold. With some cooperation I think this could be avoided. Also sharing talent might work out for both companies if they were willing to share some expenses. Have a wrestler work RoH on a Friday and then wrestle PWG on a Saturday. Because they actually gain time coming West they wouldn't have to Red Eye it to make the show. Or since PWG has been running Sunday shows, they could work a full RoH weekend AND a PWG show. It also could be a way for these guys to scout new talent as it would provide RoH with contacts into SoCal talent as well as perhaps providing RoH students a chance to work a new market if they're successful enough. One would think that if RoH could promise possible West Coast opportunities to potential students that could only be good for their business as well as entice possible West Coast students and in exchange PWG could probably get their local talent to work at discounted prices if they knew PWG had an "in" with RoH. So long as a requirement isn't "booking continuity" in both companies this could be fine. The only caveat here is that booking would be more difficult as you'd have to be careful with who jobs to whom? But on the Indy circuit that will always be a problem. An RoH/FIP/PWG "relationship" might work out for all parties involved, let's just not worry about the possible implications of "collusion" shall we?
Ryan Byers : SELL. Maybe it's just me, but diversity is one of the things that makes life exciting, and I'm afraid that PWG would have to give up too much of its image in order to enter in to a working relationship with Ring of Honor. The first reason is something that Bayani already touched on – namely booking continuity. As already mentioned, ROH has a far more serious style than PWG, so I can't imagine that if their storylines became a part of the same "universe" that the men at the top of Ring of Honor would think too highly of guys heading out to PWG and then being involved in wackier matches that they would have to acknowledge as part of their canon. (Yikes, I just used the word "canon" in a conversation on the internet. I feel like such a tool.) For example, would ROH really want to have to explain PWG's "Austin Starr" to fans when Austin Aries is supposed to be the leader of a badass stable on their roster? Would they want to have to talk about Roderick Strong's feud with a pimp that's ongoing in another company? Probably not. I'm just afraid that, because the booking would be required to line up to a certain extent, PWG would wind up having to become far too similar to ROH. Though FIP's storylines do have some inconsistencies from the events that take place in Gabe's little world up north, it's hard to argue that FIP isn't by and large the same basic style of company as Ring of Honor.
The other thing that I'm worried about as far as diversity is concerned is the talent that would be working each show. We all know that TNA has an on again/off again relationship with the fine folks of Ring of Honor, and the staff of Planet Jarrett has waffled on whether its roster or certain members thereof are allowed to work Ring of Honor shows. However, when TNA has yanked its stars from ROH, the same prohibition seemingly doesn't apply to Pro Wrestling Guerilla or other Indies. So, if TNA ever goes on one of its little "WE HATE ROH!" tears again, I'd like to see the wrestlers still be allowed on PWG shows, both for the sake of the wrestler being able to bring in extra income and for the sake of my being able to see the wrestler outside of a six sided ring. Furthermore, we all know that some individual wrestlers have decided to stop taking ROH bookings of their own volition – guys like Samoa Joe, Jay Lethal, and Low Ki all come to mind. Once again, PWG provides them with an alternative forum in which to be involved in an independent promotion with regularly released DVDs that are readily available on the internet. The fans win that way, and the wrestlers win that way.
1 for 3.
SWITCH~!
SHIMMER should merge with Sheldon Goldberg's World Women's Wrestling and begin running shows on the east coast.
Ryan Byers : SELL. Just a little background for those who might not be familiar with WWW - Sheldon Goldberg is a long-time Indy promoter whose Northeast Championship Wrestling has been popular enough to spawn an all-female offshoot. The company is selling their first DVD through the NECW website, and headliners include SHIMMER regulars Nikki Roxx and Ariel. (The former being one of Dave Prazak's favorite members of the SHIMMER roster and the latter being my personal favorite member of the SHIMMER roster.) Prazak has stated in interviews that he and Goldberg do have a bit of a "working agreement" in that they make sure shows don't run on the same day so that talent is available to both men. However, the agreement doesn't yet go as far as running joint shows or having any sort of public partnership.
And, at this time, I don't believe that it should. SHIMMER has only been open since 2005 and, in that time, has only put on five DVD tapings and a handful of "showcase" matches on other promotions' cards. Though this formula has made for a successful Indy business model (more on that later), it shows a very slow, deliberate growth that makes sense given the current state of independent pro wrestling. If the company is successful and slowly growing, there is no need to take a major risk by throwing a lot of money at a venture that may ultimately prove to be unsuccessful. Granted, Goldberg may also be contributing to the venture, but his group does not have quite nearly the national exposure that SHIMMER does, meaning that they would likely go in to any deal being far from equal partners. Furthermore, SHIMMER is currently expanded, as they will be working together with Full Impact Pro this July to run a DVD taping in Florida, the first time that the promotion has held a card outside of its "home base" of Berwyn, Illinois. If expansion is already happening, fighting a two front war is definitely a bad idea.
The other consideration is talent. Though WWW's top two or three stars currently work in SHIMMER as well, the rest of the WWW roster is exclusive to the New England area. If the two companies were combined in to one, several girls would have to be jettisoned in order to make room for everybody on the cards. WWW does play host to several young female wrestlers who have potential but are not quite ready for the national exposure of a SHIMMER (e.g. teenage sensation Kayla Sparks), and the post-merger roster purge would lead to a cut in bookings for several of them. They need these dates in order to gain experience and potentially move up the ladder, and it would be a shame if they were to miss the boat. God knows that in this world we need as many talented female performers as we can get.
Bayani Domingo : SELL. This is really based on predominantly one thing and that is. I have no idea who or what WWW is. I think the average Indy fan probably doesn't. But I think at least 50% of your Indy fans know what SHIMMER is and for them to merge with a relative unknown company at this time would be a mistake. I also come from the school that
competition breeds success for both products so long as there is room in the market to support both of them. I believe there is. Women's wrestling has just gotten a big jolt in the past year due mostly to SHIMMER. In fact, they probably have Vince McMahon to thank for that.
Once Vince started focusing on Capitalizing the T and A in talent when recruiting for the women's division in the "e" it created a gap and a need for that fan base to find an alternative. I think SHIMMER has done a great job of showcasing women's wrestling again and to a higher degree than it has ever been. At this point it appears WWW is still pretty raw and unknown, I don't know what more SHIMMER could gain that just simply not double booking their workers would provide. I think SHIMMER's best chance to succeed right now is to slowly build their own company up and then worry about merging with or simply absorbing another company all together. I also agree with Byers that having two companies to work for mean more ring time in front of a crowd and thus more experience and better workers. There is little more that can help a worker grow and hone their craft than having matches in front of a real life crowd.
2 for 4.
Bringing in former WWE and WCW stars like Jazz and Daffney will only hurt SHIMMER in the long run, as they will not be able to build up their own talent as well.
Ryan Byers : SELL. Former WWE Women's Champion Jazz and former WCW Cruiserweight Champion (don't ask) Daffney were both booked for SHIMMER's most recent DVD taping. Though Jazz was unable to appear due to her mother going in to emergency surgery, she is still apparently on good terms with the company, and the door is open to her if she wants to make her debut. Daffney, meanwhile, announced that she would become SHIMMER's first real manager and quickly added MsChif as her first client. They were the first two women to have worked in America's "big three" to be associated with SHIMMER in such a manner. Though Nora "Molly Holly" Greenwald once did an autograph signing and Lita was backstage at a set of tapings, there were no firm plans for them to ever become permanent parts of the roster…plans that did exist for Jazz and do exist for Daffney.
Of course, we've seen this story in a lot of companies. Jim Cornette's Smokey Mountain Wrestling was a perfect example. They were chugging along at a fine pace with a roster that largely consisted of home grown talent. However, as time went on, they developed a working relationship with the World Wrestling Federation. This allowed them to periodically bring in names like Randy Savage and the Undertaker to work big SMW shows, at which point a problem developed. The company treated the WWF performers as huge stars…perhaps even stars bigger than the homegrown talent. This devalued the homegrown talent and made them appear worthless in the local fans' eyes. Though that was not the sole reason for SMW going out of business, it certainly was a contributing factor.
So could SHIMMER suffer a similar fate? I doubt it. Dave Prazak, the man behind the helm of SHIMMER, understands professional wrestling far too well to let that happen. Granted, SMW was run by a gentlemen who also understood the business very well (Jim Cornette), but Prazak is a student of the game and in all likelihood has had an opportunity to learn from the mistakes made by Cornette and other promoters who have been in similar situations. Evidence that he has learned these lessons can already be seen in Prazak's past booking. For example, when Daffney came in to the company, she wasn't immediately stuck on the top of the card and portrayed as somebody who is better than the current crew just because she used to be a midcard comedy act on Monday Nitro. Instead she's being eased on to the roster, beginning with some guest commentary and eventually debuting to manage, which will most likely wind up with her setting foot in to the ring at a later date. Similarly, when the company was able to use Nattie Neidhart for a taping, she wasn't allowed to simply squash those who had been established as top SHIMMER stars due to her legacy. Instead she cleanly lost to main eventer Mercedes Martinez on her first show before being granted a victory over midcarder Ariel on the next installment of the DVD series. Even when Prazak uses women that have exposure in Ring of Honor (e.g Daizee Haze, Allison Danger, Lacey), he is careful to make sure that they are not portrayed as superhuman members of the roster, instead choosing to create his own stars out of women who have worked in smaller companies
across the country.
I have confidence that Prazak will book Jazz and Daffney as well as he has the Women of Honor and the handful of "outsiders" that he has brought in to be a part of the promotion.
Bayani Domingo : SELL. Well I'd kind of like to make this a "HOLD" if I could, but I'll give SHIMMER the benefit of the doubt because this is almost a mirror of the TNA problem. Bringing in a Christian, Angle, or even Tomko is fine, but then we still have VKM and Steiner to worry about. Since it looks like Daffney is now just managing then I think her addition is fine as it really did appear to me that the first time I saw MsChif on an RoH card that she had been Daffney and Delirious' love child. Having Jazz in the mix is great because while she is a "name" in many people's minds, she is still a good worker, and even trainer for some of the young girls working the tapings. If this were a Kat or Joy Giovanni I might have some reservations but bringing in women like Jazz, Nora Greenwald, Ivory, Lita, or even a Gail Kim would be a great addition to the roster based on name value alone.
But like Byers mentioned, making sure there is a good mix of the new homegrown talent and "names" is a big issue. You really need to make sure that you can keep your homegrown talent strong while still appeasing the other "names" you book. TNA is a perfect example of now NOT to handle this. So long as you keep your core of homegrown main eventers strong, a loss to a 'Name' here or there will be fine. Besides, a funny thing about ex-WCW and WWE women, they tend to have an unbelievable fan base that will still track them down from time to time to relive their old glory days. I can't imagine that DVD sales wouldn't receive a boost as a result. Hell, book Stacy Keibler just ONCE for a DVD taping and I'm sure JT and I would be the first people on-line to pre-reserve it.
3 for 5.
Having recently been able to get their DVD's in national chain stores, SHIMMER should aggressively peruse a television deal.
Ryan Byers : SELL. As much as I love my SHIMMER, I in no way, shape, or form want to see them on television in this day and age. The main problem with getting TV is that it costs far too much money…money that the promotion simply does not have at this time. Just look at TNA - when that company was producing weekly pay per views prior to being bought out by financial backers Panda Energy, they were bled dry of resources within a couple of months. In fact, if Panda had not stepped in when it did, chances were good that the company not be alive today. Even worse is the fact that they'd probably still die a quick death if Panda pulled out.) Part of what made the promotion cost so much were the things necessary to producing a weekly television product - not just the equipment itself but also a venue and "name" wrestlers that broadcasters would be willing to put on TV.
Of course, it is always possible that SHIMMER could find a financial backer and wind up in a position similar to TNA. (Though that would be a bit too similar to lightning striking twice…) Even then, I wouldn't want to see the company get television. Unfortunately the reality is we are living in a society that, though it has advancing since the 1950's, is still very misogynistic in some ways. No matter what talents they posses, the entertainment industry doesn't consider women worthy of being on television unless they fit a very narrow standard of physical beauty and are willing to have a large portion of their image in some way relate to sex. Though the vast majority of SHIMMER competitors are good looking women, the fact of the matter is that the company is NOT in any way, shape, or form about T&A, and I'm afraid that is what a major network would to be looking for in an all-women's wrestling product. That or they'd want the second coming of GLOW, which anybody who ever saw that product can tell you is a bad idea.
Bayani Domingo : SELL. Oh man, this is waaaaay too easy. Byers pretty much covered it, but even I'M not diluted enough to believe even my own beloved PWG could handle a TV show at this point. I'm sure SHIMMER could probably come up with some kind of backing if they really ,really tried, but then again so did WSX and look how that did. Although to be fair, Sara Del Rey vs. Cheerleader Melissa in a Tables, Ladders, and Cervezas' match would probably go over better than it did on WSX. SHIMMER just isn't ready yet for that kind of financial responsibility and as sad as it is to say, women's wrestling right now is viewed more as a novelty than their male counterparts.
I'm not even sure how well a show would do in the ratings on a national level. Also you have to worry about keeping your sponsors happy and the network. I'm afraid that would mean less Sara Del Rey and Amazing Kong and more "fitness models" and part-time strippers. Not that the girls are ugly by any means, but let's face it, even "legitimate" women's sports like the WNBA, Softball, and soccer can hardly make a profit, let a "worked sport". Also I think if SHIMMER did try and fail in regards to a TV deal they'd probably go under as a result. I agree that focusing on the DVD aspect is the best route for SHIMMER right now. Besides, it doesn't seem to be hurting ROH at the moment.
4 for 6!
The THIRD edition of BUY or SELL finishes at 4 for 6. Stay tuned for next week when two new men will go head to head with a whole new set of topics.
