411 Fact or Fiction 04.26.07: Orton, Angle/Sting, Carlito, More

Posted by Ashish on 04.26.2007

It's week ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE of Fact or Fiction with Larry Csonka, Stephen Randle, and whether WWE should release Randy Orton...

Welcome back to another week of 411 Fact or Fiction: Wrestling Edition! This week, 411 Icons Larry Csonka and Stephen Randle go at it!

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1. WWE should release Randy Orton.

Larry Csonka: FACT. If I was in WWE management, I would say that this was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back. This is yet another bad episode in the life of young Randall Orton. Going AWOL, shitting in bags and so on and so forth. This is the reason he hasn't had the title put back on him. But the sad fact is that he'll probably get another chance. He won't be on Raw this week, and may be pulled from Backlash, if not he'll certainly do the JIZZOB. From all accounts it looks as if there will be yet another suspension or him. WWE is of the mind frame that he 1) Still has a ton of upside and 2) that they can only give so much talent to TNA before it eventually helps them. Some say that Orton has major depression issues and doesn't handle the hectic lifestyle of a wrestler well, while others feel that he is nothing but am immature asshole who has been groomed from day one for the spot due to look, size, the name he has and feels he can get away with everything. WWE as a company also is light on main event guys, so basically they will probably keep him until they feel they need him. But as a company you have to draw the line somewhere, as it may just be a matter of time until his exploits cause a major public relations nightmare. Cut your losses and look to build someone else, because as I said it is only a matter of time before something worse happens and someone, maybe Orton himself gets hurt.

Stephen Randle: FACT. Fact fact fact fact fact fact fact fact. Okay, I'm not exactly the unbiased view here, but in all seriousness, how many chances does Randy Orton get, and how did he really earn them in the first place? Rhino broke a flowerpot in a hotel during an argument with his wife and got canned the next week. Ron Simmons got drunk on Mania weekend and was gone the next day. And let's not forget Kurt Angle. If they felt they could afford to lose him to TNA, you'd think they wouldn't blink twice at losing Orton. All right, WWE is actually fairly good at second chances, but how many chances is this? Five? Six? Does Randy Orton sell PPVs or merchandise or anything at a level that justifies the latitude he seems to receive on a monthly basis? At some point, a line has to be drawn, and in Orton's case, it needs to be a firing line.

Score: 1 for 1


2. If released, TNA should sign Randy Orton.

Larry Csonka: FICTION. TNA has pretty much all the talent they need right now, it is just a matter of booking it properly and gaining more paying fans as far as PPV goes. As I detailed above, Orton is a major problem waiting to happen. TNA already has problem children (Billy Gunn, BG James, Austin Starr, Nash to a point) and they don't need any more headaches. They need to worry about themselves and not more WWE cast offs. They'll be much better off that way. Orton = Trouble.

Stephen Randle: FICTION. They will, but really, like I said, it's not like Orton drew any significant money or ratings in WWE, what could he possibly do for TNA, other than be another bitter ex-WWE employee they can push in title matches instead of Samoa Joe? Plus, similar to what Larry said, TNA's roster is already packed, and they only have one hour of TV anyway. Orton doesn't bring dream matches, or a money-making character, so what would be the point?

Score: 2 for 2


3. TNA is stupid for giving away the first ever Kurt Angle vs. Sting match on free TV.

Larry Csonka: FACT. ONE MILLION TIMES FACT! People will use the argument that they need increased ratings in order to get more time. Let me enlighten you, SPIKE is happy, TNA is doing consistent ratings, while they need to do better, they are fine right now. Here is another fact, TV RATINGS MEAN JACK AND SHIT. TV Ratings to PPV buy rate conversion is what is KEY. TNA gets anywhere from 25,000-60,000 PPV buys, they are translating 2-5% of their audience to PPV viewers, and that is not cutting it. UFC is converting at times 48% of their audience to PPV buys, which is astronomical! TNA should be building compelling TV, leading up to first time matches like Sting vs. Angle. At this point in wrestling, the first time/dream match isn't out there like apples on a tree, they are a rarity and they need to properly build to them, and giving them away on free TV is extremely stupid. For the longest time I mocked WWE for hating money, but I tell you, TNA is quickly taking that title over. This is a very bad move by TNA, and when you see what they actually do it is even worse. You can only do the first match one time, that's why it is called the FIRST MATCH~!

Stephen Randle: FACT. Same reasons as Larry. One of the biggest mistakes WCW ever made was giving away big matches, matches that people would have paid lots of money to see on PPV, on TV for free. The largest example of that, of course, was Goldberg-Hogan. When a match between two big wrestlers, no matter who they are, happens for the very first time, you promote the hell out of it, put in on PPV, then count your money and book a rematch. You should never, ever, give away a match like Sting-Angle on free TV, especially with no buildup.

Score: 3 for 3


---SWITCH!!!---


4. The Memphis Wrestling show will be the last indie show Hulk Hogan ever works.

Stephen Randle: FICTION. Ever is such a long time. I think we've safely reached the point where Hulk Hogan is no longer "missed" when he doesn't show up on TV every once in a while. Plus, I think he's pretty much faced off with everyone in WWE who is willing to work with him and which would make any sense at all. Make no mistake, he'll show up in WWE again (and never TNA, Vince will always offer more money before that happens), but he'll probably continue doing the odd indy show in between his "once every other year" appearances. Of course, if the Memphis show fails completely, he'll be back on WWE TV within the month, but whatever, I'll take a stand now.

Larry Csonka: FACT. Well, never say never and all of that, but I just don't think the old HUCKSTER will be that motivated to do many more Indies after this whole deal. Sure he talks a good game, and walks a good game (when his knee is feeling ok) but in the end Vince is holding all of the cards. The other thing is that through this whole experience Hulk Hogan has learned that he is NOT the most important factor for these matches. Look at the Memphis Rating plummeting a whole rating point without Lawler. Also, with Lawler they would have had the 10-15,000 tickets sold already, but without they are struggling. Hogan can try and get his band of merry retards together for a "Legends" tour if he wants but he better go over seas because as a "US INDY" they will fail.

Score: 3 for 4


5. HBK vs. Cena from RAW was better than their WrestleMania 23 bout.

Stephen Randle: FACT. I think they refined the Mania 23 match, and stretched it out to epic proportions. They got more time, had more innovative spots, and had the benefit of having worked together in an extensive (and already high-rated) match. Plus, there was the unexpected feel of it, since they gave over the entire second hour of Raw to the match (although what does that say about their ability to fill two hours of Raw with interesting stuff), especially the week before a PPV. That said, it was better, but not by that much. Of course, at that point in rating matches, you're essentially splitting hairs and looking for mistakes anyway.

Larry Csonka: FACT. This is sketchy, because I feel that they were about the same rating wise, ****¼, BUT, while they were trying for the EPIC MATCH FEEL" at WrestleMania, they achieved that feeling with the match on Raw. The big reason for that was the time issue. This was a WRESTLING match, and not only was it a wrestling match, but as mentioned, it was a 56-minute wrestling match! Let me tell you, I have been DYING for something like this for years! You see, I remember back watching the old NWA on Saturday's. I remember seeing Flair and Windham go to a 45-minute time limit draw. I remember watching Flair vs. Garvin go the whole one hour show and Ronnie pulling it off just as the show went off the air. Now, these were not only great matches, but they were long ones that you had NO CLUE were going to go that long. It made it special. I remember seeing Ric Flair vs. Ricky Morton go 40-minutes at a HOUSE SHOW! Did I expect it? No, because I was young and Morton was a tag worker, but he took it to Flair and I thought Ricky was going to win, for moments I thought he could win. I love Iron Man Matches, I think Hart vs. HBK was great. I liked HHH vs. Rock and HHH vs. Benoit. But, if I really wanted to I could just wait until the last 10-minutes because I know I am guaranteed 60-minutes. The drama isn't there, the art of going "Broadway" is almost dead. Almost. Ring of Honor has worked to bring this art back, with Samoa Joe and CM Punk and then recently (before injury) Bryan Danielson. ROH gave me that Broadway I had wanted, and NOW WWE has done it. I have been begging WWE and or TNA to do this for years now, I want to be surprised, I want to see a match go Broadway and I want to see something special, and damn if this wasn't. They worked and built to the finish, and when HBK nailed the superkick and fell on him for the pin everything was great. Shawn Michaels is fucking great, John Cena was fucking great, this match was fucking great and in the end I was a happy man.

Score: 4 for 5


6. Carlito deserves a big push.

Stephen Randle: FICTION. I'm not sure what he's done lately to prove he deserves much of anything. Sure, he's got a decent character, even though it's been watered down horribly by the face turn. And he can bust out flashy moves every match. But there's something just missing about Carlito as a wrestler that makes me think he wouldn't succeed at a higher level of the card. I'm pretty sure he's destined for upper midcard status for life. Then again, when did "deserve" have anything to do with who gets big pushes in WWE?

Larry Csonka: FICTION. Damn FN right Fiction. I don't know how many times I have to have this talk about Carlito. I don't care how many flashy little moves he tosses into his repertoire, he is not a "great" professional wrestler. He throws shitty punches, has the same constipated look on his face the whole match and for someone that has wrestled as long as he has cannot run the damn ropes. Bottom line is this, Carly Colon got into wrestling because he thought he had to, not because he wanted too. His brother is the one with the passion and drive for the business. Carlito could disappear from the face of pro wrestling and would never be missed.

Score: 5 for 6


These two finish 5 for 6! Join us next week for more Fact or Fiction!