411’s Buy or Sell 05.26.07: New PWG Tag Team Champions, West Coast Touring, and More!
Posted by Samuel Berman on 05.26.2007
We head out West for some Pro Wrestling Guerrilla as Bayani Domingo battles Samuel Berman!
Welcome everyone to WEEK EIGHT of BUY or SELL. For those of you who haven't been with us since the beginning, here's the Reader's Digest version of what this column is all about. BUY or SELL is very much like 411's long-running Fact or Fiction column. The main difference is that BUY or SELL focuses on topics like the U.S. Independent scene, Lucha Libre, Japanese Wrestling and pretty much anything else that isn't mainstream wrestling, WWE and or TNA. This allows for these areas to get a bit more press and for you, our loyal readers, to learn even more about the sport of professional wrestling.
Week Eight's Match-Up:
Truth B Told writer Bayani Domingo vs. me, Independent Mid-Card author Samuel Berman!
Roderick Strong and PAC were the right choice to win the PWG Tag Team Titles at DDT4.
Bayani Domingo : SELL. This is a tough one because I have all the respect in the world for Roddy and PAC, two awesome wrestlers and two really nice guys in real life, but I am just not a big fan of "thrown together" teams. Especially two that deserve singles pushes as much as these two do. The one saving grace is that while both of those guys deserve PWG title reigns for the great job they've done in the past year, the tag titles have been pushed as THE titles to have ever since Super Dragon/Davey Richards ran rough shod over the division and Joey Ryan's title reign left something to be desired, so having the tag belts are now at least on par with the Heavyweight Title. *Heavyweight being a relative term with El Generico holding it…Ole!* I think the MCMG's were the right choice to win the title, but they got pulled.
Along those lines the Briscoes/Pitbulls/Kings of Wrestling were all great established teams who also could have won the belt. The only real caveat is that the Briscoes are already RoH champs and while being a double champ would be cool so long as they acknowledged the belts in RoH, PWG probably didn't want to follow in RoH's shadow as well as the Briscoe's less than sterling attendance record. The Pitbulls were an original SoCal team and Rocky Romero is the uncrowned PWG's most underrated wrestler, but Reyes isn't booked that often as is. The KoW are in such high demand too that they may be harder to book for a long title reign, although they are constantly great performers for PWG. I think my SELL answer comes not from Strong/PAC being unworthy as champs, but rather there were more logical teams to win. That, and the fact that between 4 or 5 teams to win, there was no "right" team to win, because any of the Pitbulls/KoW/MCMG/Strong&Pac/Dragon&Davey could have held the belts and it would have been okay. I think it has to do with the fact that Tag Team wrestling is becoming a lost art and when you go against established top teams like the one in the tournament to give it to two guys who have only been in the ring together maybe twice ever, it just seems to devalue those other teams a bit. But still, since there were multiple teams that could have been "right" no one team was the definitive "right". Yep, a SELL on technicalities.
Samuel Berman : SELL . I've got to mirror the lack of love for thrown together teams. Sometimes it works (see: Rock ‘N Sock Connection, Rock & Jericho, Jericho & Benoit, Jacobs & Whitmer, etc.) but often times it just feels like two guys with nothing better to do but should have belts around their waists. The latter is what this win feels like to me. Now, I'm a big fan of both guys and like that they're being pushed in PWG, but the truth is that the straps should probably be on the Briscoes or Bosh & Lost. I'm in the same boat with Bayani that this has a lot less to do with PAC & Roderick as wrestlers, and far more to do with logical booking: ok, Strong & PAC are the champs, now what? I know PAC is taking a lot of U.S. bookings at this point, but is he even a full-time PWG performer right now?
The reason why the Briscoes are great champions in ROH is because they're such a big draw that EVERY match with them is a "dream" match. Claudio Castagnoli & Matt Sydal as a team means nothing in reality, but when they're facing THE BRISCOES, all of a sudden it's a big deal. Who is there to line up against Roderick Strong & PAC and all of a sudden it's an automatic main event (other than the Briscoes, of course)? That's the problem. In a period where PWG is going to have to readjust to life without TNA talent, they should be focused on putting on must-see shows to harness as much momentum as possible. Is that really feasible with Strong & PAC holding the belts?
Oh, and don't even get me started on how awesome MCMG with the straps would have been.
1 for 1.
With Ring of Honor securing a PPV slot on television, they are no longer technically an "Indy Fed" and PWG is now the largest Independent company in the United States.
Bayani Domingo : BUY . Oh man, this is a tough one, I've consulted a few people on their opinions, dialed into Wiki, shook up the ol' Magic 8-Ball, and I came up with a definition of "Indy Fed" I'm going to have to stick to. The funny thing is that to me at least, an "Indy Fed" is out of the main stream and isn't televised. RoH is uber mainstream now and since PPV's are on TV, coupled with their obvious national exposure, expanded touring schedule, and "contracted" wrestlers I'm going with them now going from "Super Indy" to "National Company". So that leaves me with who the defacto #1 Indy fed is now.
This comes down to a few bigger Indy companies: CZW, FIP, PWG, JAPW, IWA:MS, and CHIKARA. Those are the companies you hear the most about. Right off the bat I don't feel CHIKARA and JAPW are that big yet. CZW used to be big until Zandig gutted it, so that leaves IWA:MS, FIP, and PWG. FIP is still relatively new and because of their relationship with RoH I can see them growing, however I don't think they are there yet because they still have this RoH D-league feel about them. IWA puts on some damn good tournaments, the upcoming Ted Petty Invitational looks good thus far with only 12 participants announced, I know I sure wouldn't mind hopping a plane to check it out. But the thing about TPI being a big deal is that PWG countered with "Battle of Los Angeles" and managed to match it last year after a great tournament. Show for show IWA and PWG both bring different things to the table: Hardcore for IWA and Comedy for PWG. I know I'm going to sound like a "homer" for this but I'm giving the nod to PWG just for the fact that they have been getting a lot more exposure lately due to talent being used in RoH, WSX, and Japan. Not to mention TNA purposely singling them out in the talent pool. So make that a BUY, but just barely.
Samuel Berman : SELL . I'm going the complete opposite way on this one, even in terms of approach. Not only am I selling the notion that PWG is the biggest Independent, I'm not even going to grant the premise that ROH is no longer an "Indy Fed". If you ask the common wrestling fan (read: WWE mark) if they've heard of ROH, they'll say no. That's the judge of independent vs. mainstream. What's mainstream to the smark audience isn't indicative of what the real wrestling mainstream is. When my dad, who isn't a wrestling fan, can say ‘Oh, Samoa Joe? Yeah, I saw him on Spike the other day in a commercial…", that means that TNA is mainstream. When a woman stops me in a restaurant and asks about my Kings of Wrestling shirt (claiming to be a big ECW and RAW fan) and then has never heard of Chris Hero, it means that he's NOT mainstream.
Now, I'm not saying these two incidents (both true, by the way) are universally sound and completely representative of the wrestling culture. There are plenty of ROH fans nation- and worldwide. However, Ring of Honor remains an exceedingly specialized niche product in the wrestling market. Popularity with fans of the product isn't the judge to me of being mainstream; awareness amongst non-fans is.
This question, in essence, is based in how you felt about ECW in its original incarnation. They had a TV deal and a PPV deal, but in a lot of people's minds, were always actually an "Indy Fed". I'm in that group, and so to elevate ROH to mainstream status after one PPV taping seems premature at BEST to me.
And for the record, I would go with IWA Mid-South over PWG in the ‘biggest Indy Fed" argument if I had to choose, if only because it's been around longer and has had more bigger names come through for extended stays over the years. But it's close.
1 for 2.
PWG should look to replace the talent lost from TNA with International wrestlers rather than other Indy stars in the US.
Bayani Domingo : SELL . Well I'm considering PAC as already part of the PWG roster since he had been on 4 shows prior to TNA pulling their guys. But other than him I don't see Japanese stars or more European stars being booked except at Super Shows like BoLA and All-Star weekends. This past tag tournament was the exception. I believe Doi/YOSHINO, and CIMA were already scheduled and I'm thinking that since PWG was losing Jack Evans to Dragon Gate for a few weeks we they gave us Don Fuji and Stalker Ichikawa Z in return. Which is just a weird trade that would only happen in Yahoo! Fantasy Wrestling leagues. The point being, you probably won't see international guys any more than you would have even if TNA wrestlers were still around.
I think PWG needs to start looking at other Indy talent from the US that may be cheaper and isn't already ingrained in RoH. I think if PWG had to fight it out with CZW, IWA:MS, or any of the smaller Indy feds they would be able to secure some of their wrestlers. If given the chance most Indy wrestlers would pick RoH over any other Indy fed including PWG, and now that FIP is so closely tied to them, they too will soon become a choice proving ground of sorts. Guys like Tyler Black, Eddie Kingston, Josh Abercrombie, M-Dogg 20, and the CHIKARA wrestlers are all available to wrestle for PWG, as well as two former regulars who should be brought back ASAP (B-Boy and Alex Koslov). I also want to keep pimping the idea of PWG booking some SHIMMER matches on occasion too. I think there is still a great deal of talent to be had especially considering there was only on average about 1 TNA guy per show as it was. PWG made due just fine without TNA guys at DDT4 and I think they'll be okay at BoLA '07. If you take away the 4 guys who were part of last year's BoLA (Aries, Colt, Sabin, Kazarian) you could easily fill their spaces with 4 more US Indy guys w/o having to add more than the 3 Puro guys they had before.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind more Puro/Euro guys in PWG, but not as replacement for regulars like Sabin/Frankie, but rather in more Super Card type shows. So I think while PWG can start booking more International talent, it would not only be more economical to go domestic, but also better in the long term as they can more easily book mid-west guys more consistently than worrying about the over seas issues.
Samuel Berman : SELL . I think Bayani covered this pretty well, both in terms of why you probably WON'T see tons of international talent in PWG and also how important cultivating a new crop of domestic performers is for the future of the company. There are a lot of great international stars who have had great performances for PWG (CIMA jumps immediately to mind), but there really is no substitute for having a solid, readily available domestic roster that doesn't rely on flying four guys in from Japan once a month to keep storylines going.
The one name that I'll specifically mention in terms of someone that PWG should think about bringing in is Chuck Taylor. I was at the IWA Mid-South show a few weeks back and found Taylor to be one of the most entertaining wrestlers I had seen in a while. He's young and his in-ring work could use some polish, but in terms of the comedy aspects and on-the-spot timing (two things highly valued by the PWG crowd), he is already amongst the best in the business. He would be a great addition to the roster, even as a part-timer.
2 for 3.
SWITCH~!
PWG should try to gain additional exposure by pushing to get their title belts to appear on ROH shows and DVDs (like FIP does) now that two of their champions regularly work for ROH.
Samuel Berman : BUY . The other non-ROH belts that have appeared on Ring of Honor shows have always been treated by the announcers as major titles with true importance. Specifically having Roderick Strong appear as one-half of the PWG World Tag Team Champions is a good move, as Strong is at the top of the card and having him appear with the belt would only serve to elevate the importance of the belts in ROH fans' eyes. That being said, El Generico is a mid-carder in ROH, so having him appear as another company's champion would send an implicit message that the PWG belt is not as prestigious as the ROH World Title. Obviously whether they ARE equal or not is a different issue, but PWG would have to know that just because El Generico is one of their main eventers, he wouldn't necessarily be treated as such in ROH booking. On the whole, however, having their titles appear on the widely-available ROH DVDs and in front of the ever-expanding ROH audience could only do Pro Wrestling Guerrilla good in terms of getting their name out.
Bayani Domingo : BUY . With one HUGE contingency. I seem to remember the Kings of Wrestling bringing 3 belts with them to the ring in RoH before so why not a PWG belt? I like the idea of Roderick sporting double gold to the ring and claiming that he's dominated every Fed he's been in with proof around his waste and RoH gold is next, but the problem is…and this is the huge contingency, PWG has to pony up for new belts. The Tag Titles they have now look like Disco Machine's kid made it during arts and crafts time. They're just so horribly backyard fed looking when compared to other belts. If that happens, I'd definitely buy the PWG belts getting some "face time" in RoH. As far as Generico's title in RoH it's a tough one.
I like the idea of him wearing the belt to the ring and pissing off Kevin Steen because he has gold and Steen doesn't, it also plays into their weird love/hate relationship, plus it gives off the impression that El Generico is more than just a comedy side kick as the belt legitimizes him. The only thing is that it's clear that the PWG Champ isn't guaranteed to be booked at the same level as the RoH champ or even the FIP champ. If Generico is booked poorly it translates down upon PWG, but if he's booked strong and eventually captures the titles from the Briscoes then it could work out great. Besides, PWG could use the rub from RoH and RoH could benefit by making them look like the Super Fed that all the Champions want to work for.
3 for 4.
PWG should occasionally book shows outside of the Los Angeles area along the West Coast.
Samuel Berman : BUY . This is a contingent purchase. Obviously expanding their sphere of influence and making their live product available in other markets would be a positive thing for PWG. However, if it's not financially feasible to do so, putting all their eggs in the basket of running shows in San Francisco, Portland or Seattle would be a massive error in judgment. I think PWG has done a great job so far of living within their means and growing organically rather than forcefully. In some ways, I think that if it were fiscally responsible, they'd have done so already. But still, expanding the area in which you hold live events is always a positive thing for a wrestling company. Can anyone imagine ROH being as successful as it is today without having added the Chicago market in 2004?
Bayani Domingo : SELL . Portland? What kind of self respecting wrasslin' fan lives out in Portland? I hear those guys are so starved for wrestling up there that they resort to following Puro. But I digress. Touring for PWG is really the next logical step once they've secured their talent roster, oh, and a CONSISTENT VENUE. An inside joke of PWG is that they already tour as is; just within a 25 mile radius is all. Now that they seemingly have a deal in place to move to different Armories across LA hopefully they won't have any more last second scrambles for venues. That being said, I actually was going to BUY this because I think it's the next logical step for PWG in terms of getting their name out. But I realized that they just aren't ready for a tour…not for another year at least.
Running a Bay area show would be fairly easy as NorCal does have some following and a few Indy feds up there. Securing a venue shouldn't be too hard and getting the local guys to drive up for a show shouldn't be too much of a problem so long as it's a Saturday night show. "Fly-ins" shouldn't be a problem either. Past that it's iffy. Seattle is a seriously untapped resource and besides a lot of PWG workers are originally from Washington (Danielson, Jack Evans, Davey Richards). Speaking of Davey, he currently is a big part of AWA Washington aka Pinnacle, and runs the training up there so I'm sure they could secure a venue with his help. It's also in a mall, which is cool, because I've always wanted to see Super Dragon curb stomp TJ Perkins in a tray of fresh Cinnabons. Maybe a falls count anywhere match ending at the Gap Outlet. As for Portland…they used to have a fairly active wrestling scene a while back so I'm sure something could get worked out, but that seems like the least likely of the 3 venues. Wait did I forget about San Diego? I guess it's only a hop, skip, and a plancha away from Tijuana so El Generico can make a quick trip home. Still, right now I don't see that happening because I'm not sure how well the shows would draw.
PWG is probably a year away from being big enough and popular enough to draw at least the 250 to 300 people a show they usually draw. In order to tour, they'd have to do at least that, if not 400 + to at least make it profitable. I think within the next year that will happen, especially with some help from RoH in terms of showing the belts on their DVDs and offering PWG DVD's on their website. I think this is probably a BUY, but just 12 months from now. But if they do tour, make sure Seattle is on your schedule because when I finally move back I'm going to be jonesing for a Generico fix…OLE!!
3 for 5.
El Generico will eventually lose the PWG World Title to an International star like CIMA or PAC.
Samuel Berman : SELL . I think the best move for PWG right now is to keep the World Title on El Generico for a while. He's a good wrestler with a fun gimmick who has been a major player in the company for a long time. When they finally move the title off of him, I'd like to see them give Joey Ryan another title reign. I also think that PWG will avoid "following in ROH's footsteps" by giving their title to a foreign star. ROH booker Gabe Sapolsky has taken a calculated risk by giving Pro Wrestling NOAH star Takeshi Morishima a run with the ROH World Title, but despite currently positive results, giving your company's World Championship to a part-time performer is always a risk. I think PWG will show more caution and keep the title ‘in the family' so to speak. Oh, and my prediction for the three most likely individuals to dethrone El Generico are (in order): Davey Richards, Joey Ryan and "American Dragon" Bryan Danielson.
Bayani Domingo : SELL . First off Sammy, El Generico IS an international star. He's from Tijuana, Mexico. Or Canada…either way, international…ish. Besides that El Generico is the PERFECT champion for PWG. Every major fed has their own identity, while some have Hardcore reputations, or Strong Style tournaments, PWG has a very unique flavor of comedy and wrestling. Its like a hybrid of CHIKARA and RoH in some respect. El Generico is a lot like PWG in that he's a very charismatic and comedic wrestler who just happens to be able to turn up the jets and wrestle his ass off when he needs to. If you want to know who represents the spirit of what you'll get at a PWG show then look no further than Generico. I hope he gets a good long title reign too as a result.
I don't know what Joey paid you Sammy but there is no way in hell I want to see another Joey Ryan title reign. Having gone to every show except for one during that year long reign, I have to say that he held on to that title 6 months too long. PWG has had issues with dropping the ball with hot contenders in the past. Chris Bosh, Chris Sabin, Davey Richards and B-Boy (especially B-Boy) were all great choices to dethrone Joey, but ultimately they gave it to Human Tornado who lost he title in his first real legit defense. Joey Ryan is a great character and gimmick, but he's not the guy you want representing PWG if you're serious about being the #1 Indy Fed. Plus they've pretty much booked every possibly screwy end they can so Joey can retain the belt without repeating themselves. Sorry Joey, love the ‘stache hate the booking. Besides Joey has enough ‘heat' now that he doesn't even need the belt and going back to Joey would be a major rehash we don't need. At this point PWG wouldn't dare put the title on a Dragon Gate guy like CIMA, because that would make them look like RoH-wannabe's and the only other legit international star with a shot would be PAC, who has already lost to Generico twice and has a title of his own, so no international star this year will be champ, in the future…who knows? MY prediction for the next wrestlers most likely to take the belt off Generico, probably after BoLA '07 are: Davey Richards, Chris Hero, Rocky Romero, and Stalker Ichikawa Z (strongest man in Japan, baby!!).
[Editor's Note: There is no proof of any financial connection between Joey Ryan and Samuel Berman. Any notion to the contrary is complete hearsay and is a baseless attempt to defame one of the most entertaining wrestlers in the business today. Oh, and a writer who's a heck of a swell guy.]
4 for 6!
SUPER FUN EXTREME BONUS QUESTION!
Naruki Doi's french cut tights make you even more uncomfortable than Joey Ryan's mind bogglingly snug speedos.
Bayani Domingo : BUY . Ask anyone I go to Indy shows with and they can attest that this is one of my pet peeves. Doi has possibly the highest cut tights I have ever seen on a wrestler since Sexxxy Eddie came to town. But at least that's his gimmick. Doi's gimmick is the whole Muscle Outlawz thing...no idea how a heel Japanese faction is led by a buy with bikini cut shiny tights on. The big problem I had with it was that MO'z were tagging both night out of the corner DIRECTLY in front of me during DDT4. Yeeesh. Now I'm no fan of Joey Ryan's ungodly tight swimming speedos but at least it kind of goes with his sleazy, kid touching, bad 70's porn star gimmick. I mean sure it looks like he's smuggling Spanish olives into the country but maybe I've just been desensitized to it by now. Doi's constantly wedgified tights....there is just no getting used to that man. No way. Just typing this out makes me feel like I need to take a shower now...with a gallon of bleach and some steel wool...excuse me.
Samuel Berman : BUY . I'll leave it as an exercise to the readers to figure out which of us came up with this question (and subsequently lobbied for its inclusion). Anyway, I'm pretty disconcerted with both guys' fashion choices, but Doi's certainly are more out-of-character than Ryan's. I'm going to agree with Bayani on this one, though for more vague (and less awkwardly described) reasons than he expounded on above.
5 for 7!
The Eighth edition of BUY or SELL finishes at 5 for 7. Stay tuned for next week when two new writers will go head-to-head with a whole new set of topics.
