Wrestling’s 4R’s PPV Edition 4.01.08: WWE WrestleMania XXIV
Posted by Larry Csonka on 04.01.2008
Depending on who you ask this was simultaneously the best and worst WrestleMania of all time. Polarizing, isn’t it? If you want to know what I thought of the show, come on in too see!
How the 4R's of wRestling Work!
Here is a quick explanation of the 4R's. I will take the 4 main shows (5 if I go RetRo) of the week: TNA Impact, WWE Raw, ECW on Sci-Fi and WWE Smackdown. If we have a PPV, that show will get a special PPV edition of the R's all to its own. I then group my feelings on the shows in various categories: The Right, the wRong and the Ridiculous. The Right is stuff that worked very well: a great promo, a great match and so on. PuRgatoRy is a section between the right and wrong. It shows equal traits from both sides that cannot be ignored and need discussed. It is not a bad place per say, as things can get remedied or go the wrong way the very next week. The wRong is what it sounds like: bad matches, bad or boring promos and so on. The Ridiculous is stuff that had no right on TV: Stupid angles, Diva searches and so on. And there is always a possibility of a 5th R, which is as bad as they come, unless you are TNA. They have a special R all of their own, the 6th R; the Russo-FN-Riffic~! This column is supposed to be analytical, and at the right time very critical of the shows, it was the whole reason it was created. This is not a "mark" column, nor a "smark" column, my goal is to analyze the show from many different fronts, reward the good and call out the bad. There are also occasions where I will bring out a 5th or even a 6th R to the column, so beware of those~! I will not apologize for my opinions, they are as they are, whether very positive or negative.
411 PODCASTS~!
411's back with another huge podcast broadcast! This week 411's Larry (with barely any voice) and Christi Csonka are back to discuss WrestleMania 24, an event that is getting a very diverse reaction from fans. Was it the worst WrestleMania ever? No way. Was it the best? No, but it was a damn good show that saw Randy Orton retain his title, CM Punk surprisingly winning the Money in the Bank match, Kane setting land speed records to win the ECW title and an awesomely emotional Ric Flair vs. Shawn Michaels match. Come on in and enjoy!
BELFAST BRAWL: JBL defeated Finlay @ 9:25 via pin **¼
MONEY IN THE BANK LADDER MATCH: CM PUNK won @ 14:00 ***¾
Raw vs. Smackdown - The Battle for Brand Supremacy: Batista defeated @ 7:10 via pin*¼
ECW TITLE MATCH: Kane defeated Chavo Guerrero to become the NEW CHAMPION @ 0:10 via pin N/A
CAREER THREATENING MATCH: HBK defeated Ric Flair to end his career @ 20:45 via pin *****
BUNNYMANIA: Beth and Melina defeated Maria and Ashley @ 6:05 via pin ½*
WWE TITLE MATCH: Randy Orton defeated John Cena and HHH @ 14:15 via pin ***¾
THE BIGGEST vs. THE BEST: Floyd Mayweather defeated the Big Show @ 11:35 via KO **½
WORLD TITLE MATCH: The Undertaker defeated Edge to become the NEW WORLD CHAMPION @ 23:51 via submission ****½
The Right:
BELFAST BRAWL: A lot of people thought that this was an odd choice for the opening match. At first I thought so as well, but in the end it makes sense. I have said many times that the opening match has a job. It shouldn't overshadow the rest of the card, but should be good enough to get everyone excited. It should involve people that the fans know and are connected with through hopefully a good angle. While we can debate the angle being "good" or not, it is an angle people have an attachment to one way or another, so it fits the mold. I figured that this would be a match in which they beat the shi tout of each other for 10-minutes. I was close. I have to be honest, I expected more of a Japanese Strong Style match as opposed to the weapons filled brawl, but it worked. The crowd stayed with them, Hornswoggle made his comeback and played into the match, and it worked fine. The highlight of this was 49-year old Fit Finlay doing a SUICIDE DIVE! As if this man wasn't great enough, he pulled out all the stops. Sure he ate a trashcan lid shot, but it as great. In the end JBL got the win, and I would assume that this feud MUST continue. I am a little torn on this, I am a guy that feels feuds should end at WM, but they rarely do these days so we'll live with that. A fine way to open the show.
THE BIGGEST vs. THE BEST: I know a lot of people hated this, but I think that this went off as well as it possibly could have. The crowd was into everything that they did, they loved Show and wanted him to kill the cocky little fighter and all of his crew. This could have been a disaster, Floyd could have decided not to take anything and have his crew do all of the work. But he worked the match, he took shots from Show, side slams and allowed Show to walk on him. He worked hard, Show was great and they came away with a good match overall. The bottom line is this. Show didn't come off looking weak here. It took Floyd, a bunch of his crew, multiple chair shots, a low blow and KNUX to "KO" the Big Show. And it wasn't like he dropped Show and left him for dead. Show almost beat the count. Floyd was a chicken shit that escaped with his life, and Show looked like he got screwed. It worked and came off very well, actually way better than it had any right too. I really can't wait to see the buy rate, because they got a ton of attention from this and as I said at the beginning, I think they will do some big business from this.
MONEY IN THE BANK LADDER MATCH: The Money in the Bank Ladder Match was again another crazy match this year. I wonder all the time how guys are going to top themselves in these kind of matches, and then I watch ladder war from ROH and I say, "Well they did." I went into this match with high hopes; Jericho has a lot of ladder match experience, Shelton has a good amount of experience from past MITB matches, Kennedy was in last year's match, Morrison has worked ladder matches and a lot of these guys like Shelton and Morrison are such great athletes that some major shit would have to go wrong for this match to suck. They did some innovative spots, Shelton about died, Carlito didn't fuck up too bad and in the end I was pleased with the match. Also the Matt Hardy run in came off great, and I guess we will get closure to the US Title program, which is good. Punk was definitely a surprise winner, but I think that it was a cool move. They obviously made the call to elevate someone with the win, Jericho didn't need it, and with the new drive towards kids, Punk is a good one to chose for the simple fact of his straight edge lifestyle, drugs are bad, Mmmm Kay. In the end we got a fun as hell match with some memorable spots and a surprise winner, I like it.
WWE TITLE MATCH: The WWE title match went on third from the end, and when I saw this I knew that Orton would be retaining. It was the rumored main event for weeks, and that was because Cena and HHH were rumored to be taking the title. But when they changed the order, it set the way for the heel win here. I particularly enjoyed this match as I expected a slow and plotting affair with a hot ending, but they decided on a spring style match and set a good pace and kept it up for a bit over 14-minutes. It was lively, well organized and it looked as if Orton had no chance to win. Then finish was great, HHH had got the pedigree on Cena and went for the pin. Unfortunately for HHH Randy Orton was back in, and killed him with the concussion kick. Orton then pinned Cena to retain the title, shocking many and again providing a nice surprise. Some have complained about the match "only getting 14-minutes," but I think what we have to remember is that longer doesn't mean better. If they would have gotten 25-minutes they would have worked the same exact match, just with long rest spots. This was a 14-minute sprint that never got boring, had a cool finish and a surprise winner. Be careful what you wish for kids, all I heard was complaints and wished for HHH and Cena not to win. Well, they didn't win and Cena took the pin. What more can you ask for as far as surprises? All most nobody saw that coming.
WORLD TITLE MATCH: The main event of the evening was for the world title. I was glad to see that Smackdown got to close the show, I think that Taker deserved it as did Edge. Now the big problem is that everyone expected Taker to win here, especially going on last. That means that they had a lot of hard work ahead of themselves to make people think that Edge had a chance to win the match. I felt that they did that and more. They smartly started slow since they were going long and built well from there. Taker did the crazy Undertaker Dive, which was awesome, but at every turn Edge was cutting him off whenever he would try anything. They played off of other times that Edge screwed Taker, like with the Camera shot and as the match went on, and Edge kept stopping all of the classic Taker spots, the crowd got hotter and people actually believed that Edge had a shot at winning. They did the ref bump spot, which was going to annoy me but the way they did it again made you think that Taker would lose. He got the tombstone, got the cover, Charles Robinson dashed to the ring and counted the near fall and you could hear the crowd being deflated as they thought Taker had the win. Taker would dispose of the Rated Rmy but ate a spear for 2. Edge was pissed, speared him again and out of that is where the finish came. And for those of you trying to think you know what you are talking about, Taker was not using a triangle choke, he used a GOGOPLATA, the move he has been working to get over for like 5-months. Taker got the GOGOPLATA, Edge tapped, Taker went 16-0 and won the title in a great main event. On that note, I hope that they play off the fact that Taker's shoulders were down while he had the hold applied, that could he a great angle coming out of this.
CAREER THREATENING MATCH: And I save this for last, because this was the main event of the evening to me. I have to admit, I know we were all hoping for a good match, but I had very high expectations. Shawn Michaels at WrestleMania doesn't disappoint, and I had this feeling that with Shawn out there, his family in attendance and the go for broke feeling one last time, the Nature Boy, RIC FUCKING FLAIR would walk that isle and do what he has done better than anyone for the last 35-years. They started out with some grappling and Flair looked like he was game right away. Flair got to do the press off the top to HBK and then not only did he go up top, but he got to connect with a cross body. I marked out. HBK would send Flair to the floor and then almost kill himself as he would miss the Asai Moonsault to the floor, and ate the Raw announce table. That had to suck. Flair would go to work, hitting the butterfly suplex and chopping the life from HBK. They later did a moonsault spot from the top rope to the floor, which only grazed Flair. Some people threw a shit fit right away, but I was still digging the match as HBK was bringing Mr. WrestleMania to Flair. HBK looked to have the match in hand as he made his signature comeback, but he would pause on the superkick and Flair scoped the legs and locked in the figure four, and the crowd popped! HBK would escape, only to get caught in it again. After turning the hold Flair would release it, he strutted and looked in control until he ate a superkick out of nowhere. He would then tune up the band, but Flair was down. He tried to pick him up, and then the dirtiest player in the game went into survival mode and low blowed HBK. Flair would use a roll up with the tights and an eye poke to try and win, but HBK kept fighting. They started exchanging chops again, and again out of nowhere HBK nailed another superkick on Flair. Shawn went to the corner to tune up the band, but the look on his face told you it as the last thing that he wanted to do. Flair would get to his knees and tell Shawn to do it, knowing that he had given his all and that this was the end. Shawn looked at Flair and said…
"I'm sorry…I love you."
HBK then threw the superkick, pinned Flair, immediately hugged him after the bell rang and Flair is crying as he lay there, knowing that it is over. People in the crowd were crying, Flair's family was crying; I venture a bet that a large number of the boys backstage were crying and hell, I shed a tear. As I said in my recap, I don't think they could have done the match better. One or two small missteps do not matter here; this is possibly the most emotional match I have ever seen and a fitting send off for Flair and that is why I gave it *****. A match isn't just about OMG MOVEZ, it is telling a story and I felt that they did that in this match. The era of Ric Flair is over, and for the first time in my life as a wrestling fan I have to accept the reality that he won't be wrestling anymore. Thanks for everything Ric.
Purgatory:
NADDA:
The wRong:
BUNNYMANIA: Ah yes, BunnyMania, the yearly match to feature the Playboy chick. This year they did this and didn't have a women's title match, which is didn't like, but the tag s better than Maria challenging for the title I suppose. Some people say that it wasn't as bad as they thought it would be, but I have to say that it wasn't any good either. Wow, Ashley pulled out a slow ass RANA, yippie! The match was bad, that's all. But I will say that I give the ladies a lot of credit, they were true professionals out there when the lights went out. They kept working and trying to have something resembling a match until they finally got some spotlights to help them. I do give them credit for that, but the match was not good at all. The good news is that Beth got the pin, Santino was funny and Lawler and Snoop got to lay him out. So on those levels it was fine, but I personally could have done without the entire deal. Sorry, I don't care about the Playboy chicks and all of that stuff. I want to see women's wrestling. And yes I know that puts me in the minority, but that's what I like to see.
ECW TITLE MATCH: I am really torn on this match to be honest with you. On one hand I see that they wanted to reestablish Kane as a monster. He went through the battle royal and then snuck up on Chavo to win in mere seconds. I also figure that this is a reward for Kane being such a company man over the years. A chance to let him be a "champion" of the 3rd brand for more than a day, like his initial WWF Title run; to me that all makes sense. People popped for it, so obviously there is an audience that wanted to see this. So it works on that level. On the other hand I think that the squash in seconds makes Chavo look like a complete bitch, and by proxy CM Punk looks like a bitch. Chavo defeated Punk clean multiple times, and then you have Kane walk in there and kill Chavo like he was one of the Naturals. Some have speculated that this was a punishment for Chavo, and maybe it was. But in ring punishments sometimes hurt more than just the one person. And really I think that this is a case of it doing more harm than good. ECW was already a choke and I don't think that this helped any.
Raw vs. Smackdown - The Battle for Brand Supremacy: Truth be told I was really looking forward to the Raw vs. Smackdown - The Battle for Brand Supremacy match between YOU-MANG-AH and Big Dave. Big Dave has been on a roll since last year's Mania and steps up when he has a good opponent, and Umaga is a damn good big man. They had all the ingredients to have a good match. But it didn't happen. They had an uninspired 7-minute TV main event in the middle of WrestleMania and that was that. Batista won clean with a powerbomb that he fell on, and really there isn't much to say. To me this was a huge disappointment as it could have been much more.
The Ridiculous:
SHOWCASE: This is something that I firmly believe in, and something I will likely be complaining about for some time to come, and that is the "Showcase" argument. And what I mean by this is that I strongly feel that ALL of the titles should be defended at WrestleMania. WrestleMania is supposedly the World Series, Super Bowl, Daytona 500, Stanley Cup, Olympics, Masters and World Cup all rolled into one incredible night. Then WHY is this not the night that the titles are all defended? Some people will tell me it isn't practical anymore. Why isn't it practical anymore? In all actuality the titles should be the MOST important thing on the shows and the chasing of the titles is where the money is made. Why was it more important in the early WrestleMania shows but not now? I noticed how many titles there are because I discuss how badly booked that they are. They have three separate shows, they separated the rosters and still can't find time to effectively book the titles. You see, I am sorry, but it bothers me that the IC Title hasn't been defended at a WrestleMania since WrestleMania 18. I hate that the tag titles are shunned. I hate that the US Title got tossed into the MITB match and I hate that the Women's Title had to be caught up in BunnyMania. I just feel that if this is "The Biggest Show of the Year" that they should have the titles all defended, the only time of the year where you can and could see every WWE/ECW Title on the line. THAT is a showcase. I don't give a shit about Vengeance either, in my opinion WrestleMania should be the night of champions and my mind won't be changed anytime soon.
Closing Thoughts:
When I look at the event, I have to ask if the big matches delivered. Show vs. Mayweather delivered, the WWE title match delivered, the World title match delivered, MITB delivered and Flair vs. HBK delivered. The Belfast Brawl was good, and while not a big match adds into the matches that delivered. BunnyMania was going to suck and it did, the ECW title match wasn't long enough to suck (although we can debate the booking,) Big Dave vs. YOU-MANG-AH was a complete disappointment and of course I have my showcase complaint. I thought that this year's show had better matches than last year's show; it had the emotional Flair retirement match and two surprises with Punk winning MITB and Orton retaining.
Overall I will go with a 8.7 out of 10, making this my PPV of the year thus far. THere was good wrestling as I have four of the matches making it on the yearend list below. I guess I enjoyed the show a lot more than some, but we all have opinions and it's fun to debate. As mentioned the big draw matches all delivered, there was very little suck and while we only had three title matches, overall I found myself really enjoying this year's offering. Thumbs up here, and I cannot wait for the DVD so I can see the Hall of Fame ceremony.
2008 PPV Rankings:
-WWE WRESTLEMANIA {8.7}
-ROH RISING ABOVE {8.6}
-ROH UNDENIABLE {8.5}
-WWE NO WAY OUT {8.1}
-WWE ROYAL RUMBLE {8.0}
-TNA AGAINST ALL ODDS {7.5}
-TNA DESTINATION X {7.25}
-TNA FINAL RESOLUTION {6.75}
2008 TOP PPV Match Rankings:
-(WWE WRESTLEMANIA 24) CAREER THREATENING MATCH: Ric Flair vs. Shawn Michaels *****
2008 PPV MVP AWARDS: This is a little added deal I started last year, as I feel that there are some other things that should be mentioned from the PPV's. Not every PPV will have one, it just depends on who I think steps up and deserves some extra recognition.
I completely agree that the Women's Title ought to be defended at Wrestlemania as opposed to the Playboy nonsense.
Posted By: Mina (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 01:18 AM
Apparently me and Larry weren't the only one's who thought Michaels/Flair was *****.
Rumored that Dave Meltzer does as well. (Which would make it the first match in 11 years from the E and Michaels taking the lead 3-2 to Bret Hart.)
Posted By: Dylan (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 01:21 AM
I agree with this except for the ecw thing. I seem to be the exception, But I thought it was really funny having Kane squash Chavo like that. Many people have been complaining that Kane has gotten too soft. Maby WWE is trying to remedy that. I doubt it, but I still got a laugh out of it. Much better comedy then Hornswaggle in my opinion
Posted By: imskyclad (Registered) on April 01, 2008 at 01:27 AM
I definitely agree with your 8.7 rating for the PPV, Larry. I'm sick of people calling this a bad WrestleMania. So many matches delivered, the atmosphere was amazing, the emotion was insane. I mean, what more do people want. For me, this is easily on the better side of WrestleManias.
Posted By: Mike Minotti (Registered) on April 01, 2008 at 01:30 AM
I am sorry but this has to show complete bias towards WWE compared to TNA. This was one of the worst mani's of all time and yet you give it a great ratings. The ECW title match should be on par with Russo-rif-ic. No way ever should a world champion be jobbed out in 10 seconds on the biggest show of the year. All the build for Chavo goes down the tube and now he is made to look like a joke which makes Colin and Dreamer look like bigger jokers for losing in under 5 mins to Chavo. This was a horrible booking.
Flair vs HBK was 5 stars. Come on, you have got to be kidding me. This was on par with Rock vs Hogan which was in no way a 5 star match. The match was not perfect at all. Flair suddenly stopped working the leg for no reason and then the ending goes against everything Flair has done over the course of his career. Flair on his last leg would not ask for the end to come. He would be fighting till the end which is not what he did. He gave up when he asked for that SCM. The ending was so out of charecter it was pathetic.
Show vs Merryweather was horrible. Show was jobbed out to a guy who did nothing. The match ranks up there with Bundy vs the midgets in WM 3. It was horrible and to say it deserved anything but ass shows total bias.
Bunny mania should not just be under wrong it should be under ridiculous. The WWE's woman's division is a joke and this match was anything but some T and A which is pathetic when it involves a champion.
All you ever do is rage on TNA about their shows and PPV's and yet when WWE puts out one of the worst mania's you praise it as one of the best. No wonder why you have so much in the right section for the WWE but so little in the right section for TNA. TNA does a lot of crap wrong no doubt, but so does the WWE, yet you never see it in the 4R's.
Just another WWE mark writing about WWE and TNA.
Posted By: Havok (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 01:57 AM
Wade Keller also went full monty for the Flair-Michaels match.
Posted By: Guest#1723 (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 01:59 AM
I've had tears in my eyes most of the night. The sendoff Flair got tonight was really amazing. I just hope that this is truly it for Flair. To come out of retirement in a year or two would take some of the magic away from the end of the show I think.
Larry, seriously, thank you for your review. I'm sure there were many people who had low expectations for this Wrestlemainia, but it definitely seems like they pulled a rabbit out of a hat here. I can't wait to get the DVD now! And of course, my best wishes go out to those 30 or 40 people who were injured as a result of that fireworks incident. Hey, at the end of the day I'm just glad no one is seriously injured or dead.
Bye! Taker rules!
Posted By: Geoff (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 02:03 AM
Why is it that whenever the TNA-holes make a statement, it is full of spelling and grammatical errors? And last year when WWE was in a really bad slump, Larry Csonka wasn't afraid to hand out 4s. I actually believe Larry Csonka is one of the more unbiased writers on this site. He'll point out mistakes, regardless of the promotion.
I wasn't a big fan of the Show-Mayweather match, but it was during this match where the crowd was hot. And if the show happens to break the buyrate record, this match was the reason why.
Posted By: Guest#4064 (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 02:08 AM
I wasn't a huge fan of this year's WM, I just didn't care about a lot of the matches on the card going in and they didn't do anything to change my mind during the event.
Flair/HBK was awesome, with Flair busting out moves he hasn't used in forever. I watched with a friend and we even looked at each other at one point and said "What cheats hasn't he used? Thumb in the eye?"
Next thing you know, there's the thumb in the eye. Then the roll-up with the tights. He brought his A game.
I still would have liked to see him win and immediately retire. Yeah, yeah - you never win your last match...but HBK doesn't get any rub from putting Flair out, and if anyone deserves to break convention, it's Flair.
And this is coming from a guy who thought Flair should have hung up the boots years ago.
Posted By: Rod Oracheski (Registered) on April 01, 2008 at 02:08 AM
"Big Show" looked strong and he wasn't put down blah blah blah is pure bullshit, poor Show got humiliated and lost to a jumping midget, the only thing he was booked and looked like, was a loser. And losers dont look strong.
Posted By: Guest#1072 (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 02:10 AM
Good ratings Larry. But i don't think Hbk/Flair is *****, ****3/4 is the right rating
Posted By: hulk cena (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 02:10 AM
8.7 is a fitting rating for this mania although i agree that every title should be on the line womans title/bunnymania would have gotten the same rating i think
Posted By: rba (Registered) on April 01, 2008 at 02:33 AM
Since no one has commented on it, at least not that I have seen which is admittedly little, Finlay used the Flying Tope and HHH pulled out a Crossface....in a Triple Threat Championship Match....at WrestleMania. 'nuff said.
Posted By: Devin (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 02:33 AM
Great show!!!
I just want to clarify something...
"UMAGA"
Its pronounced "Ooh-Ma-Nga"
I assume they got the name off our Former Captain Tana Umaga of the New Zealand Rugby team also known as the All Black, who was a feared Player who could smash opponents with his Attacking and Tackling abilities. Does anyone know how the WWE came up with the name for Jamal???
Posted By: A Samoan (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 02:44 AM
HA!
WWE Beat ROH PPV
Take that ROHBots
Posted By: Hank (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 02:56 AM
I think the Flair/Michaels Match was 6 stars on the emotional level, but really only 3 or 4 as an actual match. I mean despite the missed spots, why not have Ric do more of his "vintage Flair" - strutting and the "Flair Flop" . I mean it is his last match, I have rarely seen a Flair match without that stuff. It was a little slow in spots and finally Michaels has to do 3 Super Kicks, with the last one being the weakest looking of them all. It did what it was supposed to do, but wasn't a match of the year...maybe a moment but not a match.
Posted By: SuperJeff (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 03:03 AM
Hank, are you really surprised? Half of the people at the ROH boards are saying that ROH wishes they could put on a match like Flair vs. HBK. Anybody who's a true fan of wrestling and doesn't waste time over-analyzing (oh noes Flair didn't work the leg thats an automatic * deduction, gimme a fuckin break) knows deep down that was a classic match. throw the stupid star ratings out the window, this will go down as the match of the year for the electricity, the emotion, and the moment. i love ROH, but they really do wish they could deliver like Flair and HBK did.
Posted By: Dan (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 03:15 AM
Damn straight about having all titles on the line at Mania! It SHOULD be the one night when the lights are on the brightest, the stage is set and everything is on the line. Right now, only having the main titles on the line devalues every other strap in the company. Of course, with so many titles doing the rounds these days, having all titles on the line would mean eight title matches... maybe that's one thing that's also devaluing the titles. It's not like E couldn't get rid of at least one of the tag straps - there isn't enought teams for two.
But back to the topic at hand. I bet Vinnie Mac is kicking himself in the head for not having HBK-Flair go on last. Not because Ric SURE AS HELL would've deserved it, but tquite frankly, the match killed the crowd. There simply wasn't any more emotion left in them after that. Not to take away anything from Taker, but having Ric Flair's final walk up the aisle - preferably with the entire roster lining the aisle, applauding him - would have made as iconic a WM final as Benoit-Guerrero from a few years ago. Perhaps even better.
Posted By: woody (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 03:19 AM
Well, WWE has better storytelling than TNA. That's just the way it is right now.
HBK vs. Flair was great storytelling. I've never been more emotionally invested in a match. Old Yeller indeed...
Cena/HHH/Orton was great storytelling. They SOLD you for weeks on HHH or Cena winning the title. Orton won.
Big Show vs. Mayweather was great storytelling. Mayweather was the heel throughout, and the ONLY reason he won the match was because of tons and TONS of heel tactics.
Edge vs. 'Taker was great storytelling. Edge countered and countered everything 'Taker threw at him until you were sure Edge would win until finally 'Taker pulled his own counter and got the submission.
Larry mentioned what was wRong with the PPV, and still people complain. Yeah, the Kane vs. Chavo match was terrible booking, but then you call it "Russo-rific". Well, TNA is booked by Russo. That means most of their PPV matches are "Russo-rific". So how can you blame Larry for WWE PPVs above those put out by TNA?
I wish TNA would get it together and decide what their brand was going to be so they could make some progress. It would be better for all the fans. Maybe they will now that Joe vs. Angle is the focus again. Time will tell.
Posted By: Mike X (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 03:38 AM
I love how TNA apparently has the worst 3 PPV's of the year. Its miraculous how that seems to happen with you.
Posted By: jason (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 03:39 AM
Personally, I can't complain at all. I loved this year's Wrestlemania, even with the Bunny stupidity and the poor finish to the GRAND SUPREMACY match. They booked the Belfast Brawl perfectly, especially because the angle with Horny Bastard will/should continue. The MitB was as predicted, considering the only 2 contenders likely to win were Punk and Kennedy, debatable as that comment is, it's based on the belt situation and the extreme lack of pushability behind Carlito and Shelton. I would have shortened the Bunny match, as im sure Snoop was a good draw. The GS match should have seen Umaga go over, or at least do something to make Big Dave seem that much stronger, ie barely getting the pinfall after like 3 BatistaBotches. The ECW match was alright, I don't think anyone wanted Chavo to go over, and Kane is most likely going to be pushed as a monster, so whatever, it works. I loved the finish to the triple threat, the Taker match was obvious, and the Show vs Money was booked well. Believe it or not, that was a good way to play out that... "match." BUT, in total the BEST match of this and many Wrestlemanias in recent memory is and will be the Showstopper vs The Man. (BTW, HBK is technically the man now.) Not only do I give that match 5***** BUT I think that match MADE this WM. Overall this WM was one of the best I've seen since... well I think since WM 20. And possibly the best thing anyone can take away from this experience is... CENA DIDN'T WIN!!!
Despite 4 SuperCena moments in the 3-way dance, he did not come out on top. Thank you, Orton. I readily welcome the beginning of the Orton Era. Long live the RKO.
Great Raw, too. How do you follow this up?....
Posted By: Sam (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 03:51 AM
Do you know what I found nice about Flair vs Michaels?
JR And Lawler didn't talk too much, letting the match tell the story to maximum effect.
Don West, take notes.
Posted By: ButchReedMark (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 03:54 AM
From Wrestlemania and Raw I am smelling a HBK/Batista going at it. Story line bing Batista pissed he retired his idol
Posted By: Jay (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 04:40 AM
I think that respecting and admiring what Ric Flair and Shawn Michaels did Sunday night requires a certain amount of maturity. The ability to look past what moves look like and who worked what body part, and see it in the greater context of who Ric Flair is and was, who Shawn Michaels is, was, and will be, what Flair's selection of HBK as his final opponent meant to Michaels and the WWE, and just how incredibly that finish was.
Someone said that Ric Flair asking for the final kick was out of character. You couldn't be more wrong. HBK didn't want to deliver the superkick, but Flair begged him for it. An old gunslinger, recognizing that he doesn't have it anymore, wanting only to be put down by the best is out of character for Ric Flair? Please. You should seriously take up another hobby, because you don't get professional wrestling, and you certainly don't get Ric Flair.
And seriously. Flair seemed to appreciate the match and the moment. If it's good enough for him, it should definitely be good enough for the rest of us. Five stars plus five more, if you ask me.
As far as the rest of the show is concerned, the two big title matches, MITB, and the Show/Mayweather match were all good. Maybe not blowaway best of all time, but still good. They were entertaining and better than most PPV matches. How in the world could anyone say it was a bad show? It's beyond me.
Sometimes the Internet wrestling fans totally suck the joy out of watching the product, and I feel bad for them. It's entertainment. Let yourself be entertained. WWE does a pretty good job of that, and they did a great job Sunday night.
Posted By: DG (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 04:55 AM
I definitely agree that the Intercontinental title and tag-team titles should be defended every year at Wrestlemania no matter what. I am the biggest fan when it comes to those two belts, and its a shame we didn't get to see them showcased at Wrestlemania 24.
Posted By: Dwayne (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 05:02 AM
No, what I find miraculous is how people continue to defend TNA. That promotion has no excuse. It has terrible booking and even worse storylines. The decision to make Joe/Angle about the title and only the title is the best decision they've made since the FSN era. TNA has the roster to be the best promotion, work-rate wise, in the world, but their booking sabotages that. WWE knows how to use the workers they have, and knows how to utilize the strengths of those workers and hide their weaknesses. This is coming from someone who used to be such a huge TNA mark, and someone who is now a worker in the NC indy scene. I just don't see how intelligent wrestling fans can't see why WWE is currently the better promotion.
Also, Larry, I do not believe you are biased. I think you are one of the most consistently unbiased writers on this site. Keep up the phenomenal work.
Posted By: SeanAltly (Registered) on April 01, 2008 at 05:03 AM
Flair/HBK was great and the title matches delivered. I thought that Money in the Bank was too much of a contrived spotfest for my taste but I guess that's what it's there for. The only thing that annoyed me was Cole and Coach announcing the main event but until JBL returns that ain't gonna change.
Posted By: Baron Skinny (Registered) on April 01, 2008 at 05:09 AM
I kinda tok the ECW title match to be a throwback to Bundy at the first WM
Posted By: Wicked (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 05:11 AM
To "A Samoan" seeing as Umaga got one all baclsk name, hopefully they'll sign Rosie back and call him "Richie McCaw". Or have him feud with a Welsh fella called Martyn Williams.
Rugby's quality.
Posted By: ButchReedMaybury (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 06:11 AM
TNA are the bottom 3 PPVs 'cause they have in no way compared to the WWEs matches and storytelling on the road to Wrestlemania.
Besides, if they did, WWE would be doing something seriously wrong at their peak period of the year.
People who say Larry is biased just don't like the current prioduct and wish people like Rock and Austin were back. It's pathetic.
I haven't seen any ROH, but from all accounts they seem to deliver better work than TNA minus retarded shenanigans, so that's understandable.
Posted By: Banz (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 06:31 AM
I don't think you could say takers shoulders were down properly his back was arched as his shoulders were so far forward applying the move.
Posted By: guest (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 06:55 AM
I think it's fair to say that Michaels/Flair didn't need to have an absolutely perfect workrate to be match of the night. Personally, I thought Edge/Undertaker was marginally better in terms of the in-ring. Flair/Michaels easily beats it though just because of the emotional investment. The first time I've cried during Wrestlemania. That's worthy of five stars.
Posted By: T.G. Corke (Registered) on April 01, 2008 at 07:14 AM
orton winning couldn't be more wRong.they need to get the title off that overrated fuck ASAP!!!
Posted By: Guest#5412 (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 07:45 AM
"
Do you know what I found nice about Flair vs Michaels?
JR And Lawler didn't talk too much, letting the match tell the story to maximum
effect.
Don West, take notes.
Posted By: ButchReedMark (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 03:54 AM"
Lmao, I can see it now.
West: OH MY GOD!!! HE HUGGED HIM AFTER THE MATCH!
Tenay: THIS IS WHAT TNA IS ALL ABOUT!!! WE ARE WRESTLING!!!
West: FLAIR'S CAREER IS OVER, CAN YOU BELIEVE IT?
Tenay: LETS KEEP SHOUTING!!!!!!!
God I hate them.
Posted By: Stu (Registered) on April 01, 2008 at 07:58 AM
Wow. Lay off the drugs next time you watch a PPV. There wasn't a match that broke the ** range. That was WrestleCrap from front to back. Shawn's line RUINED a real emotional moment with forced schmaltz. I'd rather watch a WCW pay-per-view from 2000 ... oh, wait, that's what this was, right down to stupid production errors and botched-spot-a-mania.
Posted By: Jed (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 08:41 AM
LOVED the ppv.Thank you Ric !!!
As far as the ECW title match,is it possible that Chavo failed a wellness test again?
Posted By: Guest#1166 (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 10:29 AM
Those who say this was a bad Wrestlemania wants it to consist of 51 consecutive "OMG" spots (along with commentators hyping every single one as OH MY GOD HE'S DEAD!), 34 head-dropping maneuvers, 500000 chops, japanese no-selling and poor sound quality. Oh, and they want it to be held in a dark venue with about 80 people attending.
Posted By: mike (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 10:32 AM
i liked things from wm, but it wasn't what i expected it to be, don't get me wrong, there were gr8 moments such as the mitb match, flair/michaels, and H using the crippler crossface, but for my money i know alot of you may get mad but for my money, the OVERALL WRESTLING of tna's live impact was better than wrestlemania, just my opinon,
Posted By: cj (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 11:24 AM
I was at the show live...great energy, and I think the review is accurate, the exception being the ECW match. I actually liked it...it entertained me, and that's the point, isn't it?
As far as Flair going on last, that was what VKM wanted, but Flair turned it down...he said that the point of wrestling is titles, and they should have the top spot...it's not about him, he said.
Posted By: McGann (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 11:25 AM
"
I love how TNA apparently has the worst 3 PPV's of the year. Its miraculous how
that seems to happen with you? *rolls eyes*
seriously, some of you people stop need to spouting of this bias crap. this was a damn fine ppv, tna hasn't produced one of them since bound for glory. that's the truth, except it.
Posted By: Daz (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 11:43 AM
I guess i'm in the minority for enjoying the Big Show match? As for all of the marks calling Mayweather a "midget", the man is a TRAINED FIGHTER.
Posted By: JMASCORPIO (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 12:06 PM
I was there in the crowd and maybe that makes me biased but this was def an awesome Wrestlemania. The emotion in the crowd after HBK and Flair match was amazing.
On a side note: I feel after the whole firework problem that occured after the show the fact that the theme this year was titled "Let Light it Up" was rather fitting. Wouldn't you agree.
Posted By: Drew (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 12:23 PM
West: OH MY GOD!!! HE HUGGED HIM AFTER THE MATCH!
Tenay: THIS IS WHAT TNA IS ALL ABOUT!!! WE ARE WRESTLING!!!
West: FLAIR'S CAREER IS OVER, CAN YOU BELIEVE IT?
Tenay: LETS KEEP SHOUTING!!!!!!!
===
LOL. Among the many things TNA needs to do to up their game against the E is to dump these two assclowns.
Posted By: Guest (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 12:27 PM
After Chavo's 2 minute ring entrance, I was so bored that I was glad Kane ended it so quick.
Posted By: Jay (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 01:37 PM
For crying out loud...
THERE WAS NO BETTER WAY to send Flair off.
I love TNA and will defend it, but Mania 24 was all about Flair and they made it special. And Shawn saying "I'm sorry... I love you" made everyone cry.
Screw the haters. It was what wrestling is supposed to be and for once they honored the greatest of all time the right way.
And the send off on Raw last night, tremendous.
Wrestling is what it is because of Ric Flair, forget Hogan and the rest. Flair carried this "sport" and went 60 minutes with the greats, told stories and made stars.
Only wish Sting would have been there to make it the most incredible moment in Raw history.
Good stuff.
Posted By: JT (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 01:40 PM
Good points JT. I am a huge TNA fan, and while I don't know much about ring psychology and chain wrestling, I do know what I like, and WWE delivered during Wrestlemania.
Bottom line, were you enterained or not? I was, I don't sit there and compare WWE to TNA, because I would love both promotions to succeed (and for those who complain about TNA, watch how they're actually building up to Lockdown and you'll see).
The Flair-HBK match alone was worth it. I am so happy Orton won, props to WWE for showing faith in him to carry the ball. Now it will mean something whenever he loses his title.
Edge-UT: Solid match, and I expect a few rematches on that one.
Larry, I think the reason they did the Kane squash was just that they wanted to reward him for years of loyalty. Call me crazy, but I think having him win could be the boost ECW needs. Face it, he's credible, and they can have a nice feud between him and Shelton in all sorts of matches.
I'm not as hung up on the whole "all titles have to be defended" because there are too many as it is. Just give me matches that I can say "that was fun" and i'll be happy.
As much as I love TNA, they haven't delivered thus far. However I will say this:
SAMOA JOE-ANGLE AT LOCKDOWN WILL BE THE MATCH OF THE YEAR!
Posted By: Orlando (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 02:20 PM
Seriously, Jed? Not one match broke two stars?
I have really hated most of these comments since they began. 80% are "smarky" bastard trying to sound hip by mocking something. They've read two or three well-written articles on 411 and thick everyone will praise them for their witty and urbane remarks.
I never thought I would tell someone what enjoying or not enjoying something meant..but here it is. If you didn't enjoy last night's WrestleMania on some level than you are not a professional wrestling fan. It's simple. You cannot not call yourself a wrestling fan and not be entertained by most of last night's event.
Maybe you're a fan or something else, but it's not pro wrestling fans. Real wrestling fans know what the good stuff is.
Pathetic. Just pathetic.
Posted By: matt_telthorst (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 03:05 PM
I haven't seen this yet, but I will soon enough. I wanted to speak on the complaints about Larry. In my time around here, I've learned that Larry's opinion on right and wrong is pretty accurate, but take big moments that he can't stop raving about with a small grain of salt... It's called marking out, and he just happens to write a bunch of columns (right here... at 411mania!), so you'll see it come out sometimes. Hell, if luminaries like Dave Meltzer and/or Wade Keller are drinking the 5-star Kool-Ade for Michaels/Flair, than it can be forgiven if Larry does. If you can forgive a guy for wearing his heart on his sleeve from time to time, he is generally unbiased and makes intelligent statements, that factor in stuff many of us don't take into consideration, to back up his arguments.
Personally, I'm not prepared to believe that this show could have been good enough to score an 8.7, but I'll be more than happy to be pleasantly surprised to see it come off much better than the build for it had me expecting, should to my eyes.
Everything being said, and the fact that despite having had the opportunity to see a good deal of Flair at his best, though I'm still pretty young in years, I merely respect the man's skills and have no personal attachment. I expect I won't be seeing more than a very good ***1/2 from Michaels/Flair, and much like Kenta Kobashi's return match, I expect more emotion and storytelling than polish and flawless ringwork, which won't do me a full five without having an emotional investment. My grain of salt is apparently *1/2 stars.
Finally, to whomever said the finish me off junk sounds way out of character, I agree, but I will reserve judgment until I see it for myself.
That was way longer than I planned. Sorry.
Posted By: twf's sdc (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 03:09 PM
I have to tell you guys, if it weren't for Flair/HBK, this would have been one of the WORST Wrestlemanias in recent memory. The Taker/Edge match was good, but nothing else really grabbed me enough except for MITB, and that wasn't long enough IMO. You just can't justify giving bunnies more time than Chavo/Kane, which could have been a great match. Umaga/Batista stunk badly. The triple threat match underachieved slightly. And the belfast brawl only consisted of trashcans and a clothesline from hell. I think this was a 6.5/10 guys. Sorry. When you set the bar so high for Manias, this one left me and my buddies feelin like we wasted our money just a little. But I can't argue with Flair and Shawn. Couldn't have been done any better. Classy and emotional, I loved it. BTW, I think TNA is turning a corner guys. Lets stop hating entire promotions and start being pure wrestling fans again. I watch them both and if you WWE fans want to see better programs from the E, let TNA continue on their pace and you'll see the competitive spirit come out of both companies. That's when we win as fans!
Posted By: Brady (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 03:20 PM
I heard that Meltzer gave Edge/Undertaker *****
Posted By: Kirk (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 03:36 PM
I thought this WrestleMania was awesome, definitely better than 23 or 22. This was in the top ten greatest wrestlemania's.
Posted By: Brett (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 04:28 PM
Ric Flair going last would have been a bad thing, because it was emotional and something that feels good about 2 hours after it happens! Wrestlemania needs you bouncing away going "that was great, I got to watch Raw tommorow!" Flair losing was an important thing, but It just wasn't a feel good moment!
Posted By: Davy (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 04:47 PM
I agree with pretty much all of went on here. Dave and Umaga should have been worthy of at least 3 stars, but they both blew it. The only thing i don't fully agree with is that Kane and Chavo was bad. Sure, i wish it was longer too. Hell, it could have been cool if it got 10 minutes atleast (no time, vince? try cutting from that bunny crap!) but i think it was good to re-establish Kane. and making him beat Chavo in a minute did more good for Kane than it did harm for Chave, in my opinion. The ECW title looks the most legit since Morrison won it. Now if only he got some legit contenders, it would seem ok. OMG i was relieved that Khali is going to be feuding with Show instead of Kane. Here is a list of a few possibilities for ECW contenders: Batista, Findlay (in a few months, and BDV. Damn i can't wait for the draft.
Posted By: Jordan (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 05:30 PM
A decent Mania, definitely better than I was expecting, and the WWE title match ws the right decision with Orton going over. For once they actually got his booking right.
One thing though Larry. You really should have busted out a new R here, for Ric Fucking Flair. WOOOOOO!!!!
Posted By: The Gunman (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 05:56 PM
Big Show v. Floyd worked so well, because WWE figured out that Floyd is the "heel" in the feud, and both guys were total pros throughout the match in telling a fun story. The booking of this match was excellant.
Overall, I really enjoyed the show, and my only complain booking wise is that Finlay and Horswoggle have been through hell the last couple of months, and Finlay should have picked up the win in ending the fued.
Posted By: Buck I (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 06:27 PM
Until about a week ago I was still undecided about getting Wrestlemania. I'm glad I did as I think it was the best 'Mania in years, probably since XX. That said, I don't know about 5 asterisks for Flair/HBK. Great match, great moment, but I'd go four tops. Besides that, I'd say your rundown is spot on!
Posted By: M (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 07:10 PM
Matt-telhorst, pull your head out of your ass. OMFG SOMEBODY ACTUALY DIDNT LEIK TEH SHOW TEY SUCKE!!!!!!11!!!ELEVENTY!!!!! THEY ARENT REAL FANS BCUZ THEY HAVE TEIR OWN OPINION ABOUT SUMTHING AND IT ISNT MY OPINION!!11!!ELEVEN! Seriously, grow up and realize that not everybody has the same opinion, and not having an overwhelmingly positive opinion of WrestleMania doesn't make them any less of a "true" fan than you. And to the person who taked about Ric Flair asking for the superkick: it WAS out of character and contradicted what got him pissed at HBK the week before. The storyline was that Flair wanted to wrestle HBK, and HBK basically said from the start that he would win, which OFFENDED Ric Flair. Then HBK did the Old Yeller comparison last week and Ric Flair slapped him for saying it. He still thought that would have fight in him, so HBK making the Old Yeller comment pissed him off because Ric felt that that WOULDN'T happen. So him asking for SCM at the end contradicted all of that.
Posted By: JJ (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 07:42 PM
hi guys i just wanted to say that larry your reviews are awesome and i loved flair.
i also want everyone to help me with something.I am 13 and have been watching wrestling for about 6-9 months. I have decided that i am going to purchase some wwe dvds but i dont no which ones to buy. So please could you write the 10 best wwe ppvs (that means NO documentaries or superstar dvds such as john cena and triple hhh)and post them on this page as soon as possible. Also next to the ppv could you also post a rating such as what larry does in the 4rs ppv review. I only want wwe pvs from 2002 onwards but i will make an exception for wm17 as i have heard that it was the best wwe ppv ever. From all the lists posted i will then choose the most popular ones in terms of their ratings and frequency and purchase them. Please base the ppv score on star ratings. I really thank anyone who is kind enough to post some lists down.
ps Brothers of destruction on top!
Posted By: bigredmonster (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 08:24 PM
Hey Larry, I am a long time fan of the site, and you are the best writer they have since the old days (Widro, Gamble, Hyatte, etc.) A true throwback amongst this generation of younger fans. Great work on this article.
One thing, though, with the rise of mma, people have to be careful about Taker, as that was not a gogoplata.
Posted By: mmafan (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 08:40 PM
To say that the finish of Michaels/Flair was "out of character" is extremely perplexing to me. All along Flair had been asking for the 'showstopper' and the 'headliner', since when has that included being reluctant to superkick someone? In my opinion Flair was begging Shawn to stop feeling guilty and keep giving his all? No?..
.. besides, to me it looked like Ric got up, fists clenched, and almost dared Shawn to keep coming at him.
Posted By: burnmyeyes (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 11:15 PM
You have to keep that caption of the HBK superkick because that seems to be one of the single greatest shots in recent time. Great column as usual.
Posted By: Mick (Guest) on April 01, 2008 at 11:32 PM