Please…Don’t Hate 4.20.08: John Cena
Posted by Julian Bond on 04.20.2008
In this third edition of Please…Don’t Hate, we look at the one of the most controversial and talked about subjects in wrestling today. The man who you either love to hate or hate to love…with no further introduction… John Cena.
Welcome everyone to Please…Don't Hate, the weekly column which takes a look at some of the most hated on and complained about wrestlers, companies, and topics within the wrestling world. This being my third article for 411Mania I will be taking on the daunting task of defending the most talked about and probably hated on person in the wrestling biz today, John Cena. So before I step into the fire…..
Reader Reverb
This is the section where two reader comments, one being for the weekly topic and the other being against, are chosen and I then give my two cents on them.
Last week's topic: Kevin Nash
M.I.B. (Guest) writes:
I agree soley man, and believe me, I am no Kevin Nash fan. What I do like about his TNA version, is he does those little things to get wrestlers over, like the PCS's or the whole Paparazzi Production skits. Even now, he's tried getting Samoa Joe THAT much more over. Sure, he can't wrestle that great, but he's still able to use his name to help the company, and I respect him for that. Good column man.
Thanks for the comment. This is exactly the point I was trying to make. People only see Nash as wanting to take control backstage and make his own matches, but the things that he does are really getting OTHERS over much more than himself. Despite the indescribably awesome wrestling skills of Alex Shelley, Samoa Joe, and Jay Lethal, they all needed something extra in TNA to help them develop their characters a little bit more. Shelley went from being "Baby Bear" to becoming the funny smart-ass character we've grown to love as Nash's right hand man. Joe toned his character down a little bit from being just the "killing machine" to becoming more of a focus on the TNA title with the assistance of his verbal bouts with Nash. And Lethal's way more over with his "Oooooooh yeeeeah" persona as Black Machismo (brought out by Nash's backstage skits) than he was as just the underdog X-Division member. So instead of focusing on the question of if Nash is bringing down TNA with his "political games", people should concentrate more on the accomplishments he has helped bring in with his stay thus far.
Brappy (Guest) writes:
Ok look maybe Kevin Nash wants to help TNA out but come on the reason he is on TV is the same reason Hogan, Flair, Duggan and all those other old timers hang around to stroke their ego built up from yesteryear and also coz they got no place else to go. Also Nash would no way get this kind of exposure in WWE. People like Edge, Taker, HHH, HBK, Cena etc... will not job to him and TNA will take anyone from WWE and try to make a star out of them. Nash knows this and is exploiting this. If he really wanted to help he would be in matches only to put people over and maybe become some type or GM or manager for a rising star. Instead he is booked strong and remains a top card talent.
I disagree with that. I believe that there are three groups of "old-time" wrestlers: 1) Those who may just be there questionably for the paychecks (Hogan, Savage), 2) Those who are just there to help put others over by primarily jobbing to them (Duggan) and 3) Those who sometimes win matches to help keep themselves looking like strong contenders and then jobs at the right times to get others over (Flair). Nash is in the later category. Contrary to others' belief, the man doesn't go out every single night and beat others unmercifully. In fact his recent history has only been: his feud with Chris Sabin (in which he beat Sabin in the first bout and Sabin beat him in a tag the next, right before plans were scrapped), acting in backstage skits (PCS, Paparazzi Idol), and then after a whole year later he just started getting back in the ring with the likes of Tomko, A.J. Styles and Matt Morgan. So to go against your argument of Nash wrestling just to stoke his ego, the facts say that the man has barely wrestled at all in the last couple of years and the man even stated that he was kind of surprised to recently lace up the boots again (read in an recent wrestling chat linked here). I believe that by switching up his silly attitude, which he successfully used backstage, to now being known as cocky bad-ass grappler helps him even more to get others over in a different light by facing him in the ring.
Now the man of the hour.
Why People Hate On…John Cena
-Too bland in the ring
-Lame personality/gimmick
-Not enough skill to be in main event picture
-Part of WWE "Mass Marketing" product
My Reasoning for Not Hating On…John Cena
First thing first, before anyone even remotely thinks of hating on me for not hating on John Cena let me clear the air with the brief history of my own love/hate relationship with the doctor of thugonomics. When Cena first came on the scene years ago with his "ruthless aggression" and lame-colored tights I wasn't buying it. His series of matches with Chris Jericho and Kurt Angle really didn't impress me and I honestly thought that he wasn't going to make it longer than a few months. So I was surprised when a few months later he was still holding it in there playing as a heel and then all of sudden started getting interesting with his pre-match freestyle raps. So with this (and also being a heavy fan of rap myself), I started to like the kid. Especially with his pretty good bouts against Brock Lesnar and the Undertaker and even more so after when he turned face and won the U.S. Championship at Wrestlemania XX. Sadly after this peak I started to become torn watching Cena. His raps became stale, his moves weren't particularly improving, and he seemed to be stuck in neutral. Even with his big push to winning his first WWE title against JBL I still wasn't feeling him. So for the next year I went back and forth between liking and disliking the guy. One month I would go insane watching one of his matches (vs. Jericho/Christian), and the next I would get frustrated with his tiring act (personality not improving).
Then the turning point came for me in 2006 with two of his huge matches: the one that defined him as a true main event wrestler (Wrestlemania 23) and the one that defined his character (ECW One Night Stand). At Wrestlemania his epic WWE title match against the heavily-favored Triple H defined him as a wrestler not to be messed with. Throughout the entire bout, right down to its shocking ending, the crazy Chicago crowd went nuts wondering who was going to best who and then became even more insane when Cena slipped the STFU on HHH in the middle of the ring and made him tap ever so cleanly. Even with this bout shutting A LOT of people up (including myself) about his in-ring abilities, there was still doubt about his tiring character. He kicked major ass constantly defending his title, but was he still just the wrestler/rapper-wannabe who just got lucky each time out? His bout against RVD at One Night Stand answered just that. While the match technically wasn't anything spectacular (no flashy moves, no high spots), the perfect combination of the very verbal, rabid and one-sided ECW crowd (rooting for RVD, of course) and their already pent up hate for Cena is what made it very memorable. The overall reaction and demeanor of Cena sticking to being himself and ignoring all of the naysayers throughout the bout is what truly helped define Cena's character in the ring. To go into the fire that was the true hardcore ECW crowd (who threatened to riot if Cena won) and stay true to yourself throughout the whole entire thing earns my respect in a heartbeat.
These two moments not only defined Cena as a well-rounded wrestler in and out of the ring, but definitely earned my respect for seeing him as wanting to be the hardest worker out there today and wanting to defy all of the odds in the process. From One Night Stand on he has been having great match after great match, while improving on his personality ever since. So with my history of liking/disliking Cena, which I'm sure that some of you may have experienced as well, I want to go over the skepticisms people STILL have about the man who wants to do no harm.
John Cena is one of the hardest workers in wrestling today and is very motivated to put on a great show, while at the same time trying to constantly improve his wrestling skills. In a recent interview he did with the Sun UK's Wrestlecast crew (read here), he talks about being an old-fashioned, straight laced type of wrestler who has great matches. No fancy moves, nothing cutting edge, just basic in your face wrestling. People hate on him for having a limited move set and not doing anything spectacular, but his "back-to-basics" style is actually a refreshing change of pace in today's big-move world of grappling. Not only has he increasingly added new moves to his repertoire but he has also improved on his established ones. His STFU (submission move) has gone from looking like a silly attempt to be submission-based to becoming one of the sickest looking finishers today (especially shown in his Royal Rumble-Umaga match). Personality and promo wise Cena is definitely no Rock or Stone Cold but he has slowly but surely evolved in this field. His great main selling point is being true to himself. Even when he's raping to showing his "soldier-like" mentality, it's all a part of who he is, not some type of fake persona. He's not trying ultra-hard to be someone that he's not, a problem that other wrestlers often have. Fans shouldn't boo Cena for improving, slowly or not. He's gone a long way from claiming "Word Life" to his much more aggressive "You Want Some…Come and Get Some" attitude.
Despite all of the haters out there, Cena definitely deserves to be in the main event picture one way or another. His matches and feuds in the last couple of years without a shadow of a doubt have been the true highlights of all of the WWE shows. The series of matches with Shawn Michaels and Umaga were horribly impressive and the two feuds he's had with Edge, and then later on with Orton, have both been excellent.
When others call Cena just a lame product of the WWE's "mass-marketing/merchandise" vehicle, I think that it's horribly hypocritical. The same people who cheered for the Rock and Stone Cold Steve Austin in their prime are the same ones who claim this. As good as these future hall of famers were, they were still as merchandised and pushed as Cena is. It's a no-brainer that with every successful wrestler the WWE pushes out as much merchandise as possible to make a buck, and to hate on Cena as being a part of this system is lame to do.
Good Reasons to Love….John Cena
Ability To Create Good Matches
A great skill that Cena has is the ability to create good matches with whoever he's in the ring with. He has drawn good matches out of much slower big men like the Big Show, Gene Snitsky, and even the wrestler whom no one had any hope of getting a good match from, the Great Khali. The two title matches with Khali were easily the best of the giant's career so far.
His long ranged feuds with both Randy Orton and Edge were both truly defining highlights of Cena's career. The Edge feud raged on for a good year and never provided a dull moment, and the Orton feud is still fresh and still has the potential for some great moments.
On top of the two career defining matches I described above, the man has the nerve to get ahead and have even BETTER matches than this! If you haven't seen the bloody brawl that was Cena/Umaga at Royal Rumble 07' nor the epic 1 hour bout in London vs. Shawn Michaels and you're STILL hating on the man….please do yourself a favor and watch these.
Overall, Cena's run so far has easily been the biggest thing to hit the wrestling scene since the Rock, the Stone Cold, and even the Hulkamania era. To deny this or to hate on the man for wanting to improve and wanting to be the best in the ring is just plain wrong. You may not like him, which is fine, but just respect the fact that he is actually a main eventer worthy of being in the top spot of the biggest wrestling company in the world today. The funny thing is that in the end, the same people complaining right now about him being on top are the same who are going to look back and realize how great his reign was when's it all said and done.
On The Next Episode of…"Please…Don't Hate"
After discussing three very heated topics in my first few columns, I'm going to take a step back and cover a much, MUCH lighter topic of discussion. Hold your laughter as I present…"Stone Cold" Shark Boy.
My main problem with Cena isn't the whole 5 Moves of Doom thing because that's hyprocritical. My main problem is that he can't perform and basically uses matches as a vehicle to get himself over. He sits on his ass and has his opponent work him over, and then no-sells everything and wins without working on his opponent. And when he's being dominant, he turns it into a one-man show to get the hostile crowd to actually like him, a la ONS2. And he is NOT a huge draw. WWE STILL only gets half the ratings and buyrates that the Attitude era gets, and the only reasons why WWE makes so much money is from price inflation, DVD sales, 24/7 subscriptions, and market share (they've had a near 100% marketing share ever since WCW died and are thus able to make more money).
Posted By: JJ (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 03:11 PM
Oh, and both of his matches with Khali were horrible. The hour long match was overrated. I fell asleep TWICE during that match, and no matter hard I tried to, I couldn't get into it. The LMS match was overrated and I STILL don't understand how 411 named it WOTY.
Posted By: JJ (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 03:21 PM
I agree 100%
Cena is really good, even if he's not a strong wrestler. He's damn entertaining and the WWE missed him a ton when he was gone.
Posted By: Kent Baker (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 03:47 PM
The whole don't hate thing can only go so far. You forgot to mention the five moves of death, and his "good matches" that you listed are good matches FOR CENA, but there are far better superstars out there.
So PLEASE HATE...Cena
Posted By: Guest#8189 (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 03:54 PM
Its a Cena column.
Ok...he has 5 moves, he is boring, he thinks hes the Rock, he thinks hes Austin, he sucks up to Vince, hes a sell out, he cant rap, he isnt a movie star, he cant wrestle, he's shoved down our throats, he is evil, he is the reason for the wars, he's the reason the whole of wrestling sucks, he's the reason I dont believe in God anymore, he's the reason the orphanage burnt down, he's the reason the Harry Potter lexicon is coming out, he made baby Jesus cry, he isnt funny.
I think thats covered everything.
Me, I like Cena. Done.
Posted By: FDuk200k (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 04:20 PM
You've got a point with Cena being "pack to basiics" I've seen matches with guys like Harley race and Dusty Rhodes. It was mostly punch kick, lockup, simple suplex, scoop slam. the point was to make it look tough.
Cena does try to improve. I don't hate him I actually consider him one of my favorite wrestlers. I still think he needs to step away from the main event for a while though, he's an over enough star that he can try to bring some prestige back to the IC belt, maybe do some personal-storyline feuds, maybe even find a partner and do some time in the Tag ranks. He's a main event player, but until fresh blood to fued with on the main event is established it would be better for him to step back.
Posted By: Davy (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 04:22 PM
"The overall reaction and demeanor of Cena sticking to being himself and ignoring all of the naysayers throughout the bout is what truly helped define Cena's character in the ring. To go into the fire that was the true hardcore ECW crowd (who threatened to riot if Cena won) and stay true to yourself throughout the whole entire thing earns my respect in a heartbeat."
Well the guy had a job to do. He can't just walk out on the match, so he had no choice but to stay out there. And what is he going to do, hit fans? He's not Batista. I hate Cena but I understand your points and won't "hate" on you for it. Although it sort of killed RVD's moment by having Edge help him and Heyman make the count. It's like they're saying RVD couldn't win on his own and come on, yes he could. And being "ECW", he should have. Warrior won his title from Hogan who was a huge face that hardly lost. Michaels won his first title from Bret who was a face. And both men did it clean. That's what always bugged me about the Cena/RVD finish. If you're going to put the title on RVD in his backyard, he should have beaten Cena clean. What happened afterward, with RVD losing the title, was his own goddamn fault. But still, the One Night Stand win should have been clean. Although I wanted to see if they really would RIOT if Cena won lol.
Posted By: Bernie Lomax (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 04:33 PM
I had to respond to an anti-Cena comment on my own column this week, when my article had NOTHING to do with Cena whatsoever. It's rampant.
Posted By: T.G. Corke (Registered) on April 20, 2008 at 04:35 PM
Sweet column :D
Posted By: Juicy (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 05:11 PM
I promise you I'll never EVER look back and see anything Cena has ever done and decide it's great. Cuck Fena, and you for writing this biased bullsh@#$!
Posted By: Guest#2089 (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 05:32 PM
Solid points Julian. For the record i've never thought Cena was a bad wrestler.
I think the main issue is: are people entertained by him? I say no, because the biggest issue people have with him is the "Superman push" that makes it difficult for people to root for him when they know he's always going to win in the end.
With the Rock and Stone Cold at least they lost big matches and didn't just jump back into the World Title scene just because they could.
Through no fault of his own, because he does work hard on his craft, people want to see Cena struggle some before he gets back to the top of the championship field.
So in the long run I blame the poor WWE booking more than I blame Cena. If they took Cena out of the championship mix for a while I'm sure you'd see some more support for the man.
Posted By: Orlando (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 06:22 PM
"John Cena is one of the hardest workers..." There is a world of difference between EFFORT and EXECUTION. Candice tries hard but isn't talented, so I don't care. What moves has Cena gained? The STFU is it, and it still looks bad half the time. Nearly all good matches since the face turn were gimmick matches that masked his deficiencies. He went from creative rapping to sounding like a 12 year old. Rock and Austin never dominated the title as Cena has. And no one who draws 50% X-Pac heat is a proven main eventer. Who wouldn't look good if they almost ALWAYS win? The fact that he needs to be defended pretty much proves he has no place on top. I don't like Samoa Joe but can't argue with him being champ because he's hugely over. The same can't be said of SuperCena. He needs a heel turn stat. If T-shirt sales are the only priority, just get him out of the damn main event for a while so some one who's deserving can move up. His fans celebrate his weaknesses as strengths, and it's maddening.
Posted By: Jason (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 06:49 PM
When I look back when it's all said and done, I'll use Cena as an example of why it was so hard for me to enjoy wrestling during this era. As I said before, it's not the 5 Moves of doom stuff, because everybody has their own sequence, but other people at least know how to work a match.
Posted By: JJ (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 06:49 PM
JJ
'Oh, and both of his matches with Khali were horrible.'
Then blame Khali for that. Cena got a better match out of Khali than HBK, Undertaker, Batista and any other top tier guy at that point. The match was horrible but it was as good as could have been hoped for and for that I thank Cena.
'The hour long match was overrated. I fell asleep TWICE during that match, and no matter hard I tried
to, I couldn't get into it.'
Then blame HBK. He's the vet who's supposed to carry the thing and make it watchable. He's the guy whos supposed to direct the traffic and help the young gun out.
'The LMS match was overrated and I STILL don't understand how 411 named it WOTY.'
Because it had drama. You've made no secet that you hate Cena. You posted in a different threat over 30 times about how much you disliked him. I'm not saying right or wrong about that because its your choice but when you hate on him at least make it because of him and not for stupid reasons like you listed above.
Posted By: FDuk200k (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 07:11 PM
Ive worked it out Cena is to wrestling what Keanu Reeves is to acting.
Its just a case of overexposure and a complete lack of variation. There are no caveats in his chararcter. Even though HHH is the anti- christ in my eyes,he is still intriguing, he could turn at anytime, switchflip and change character
Cena is just so one dimensional. In this day and age thats just un- acceptable. This aint the 70s and 80s no more. Things change as to tastes and predictability is no longer accepted in the wrestling community.
Posted By: kaei (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 07:49 PM
I was arguing against the matches listed. He said they were good, I say they're bad. Of course the Khali match was horrible because it's Khali - but don't say that Cena made it watchable. Same thing goes for the LMS match and the hour long match - I was going against the match quality, not Cena himself. Another thing that JD Dunn pointed out in his review of John Cena: My Life about Cena defenders is that when they defend him, they defend how hard he works, not the actually quality of the work.
Posted By: JJ (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 07:54 PM
i think after hulkamania, we fans were spoiled. our main event stars could actually talk and wrestle. we got use to having guys like the rock, angle, austin, HHH, hbk, foley. taker and others. cena is unfairly compared to those performers.
i dont hate cena. i am not a fan but he is entertaining. and in the world of sports ENTERTAINMENT! he is doing a great job.
Posted By: rey (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 07:56 PM
Cena is basically the Lil' Wayne of wrestling. Journalists and mainstream fans love him, and his skills are in the bad-average range. He's not flat-out terrible and there are people far worse than him. But for him to be in the position that he's in, combined with his fans, make me HATE him.
Posted By: JJ (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 08:26 PM
"Even when he's raping to showing his "soldier-like" mentality"
Wow. That's almost as bad as "Mad Pooping for Jeff Hardy"
As much as people that like Cena are sick of hearing Cena hating, I'm getting sick of all the support.
I have absolutely no problems with John Cena as a person. He's a good guy backstage and with the fans, he's not a politician despite being on RAW.
The boys upstairs are the problem. THEY book his matches to end the exact same way every time (Clothesline, shoulder tackle, shoulder tackle, protobomb, five-knuckle shuffle, F-U/STF-U). THEY make him give either one of two promos every time he walks on stage.
A) Serious promo.
B) Promo that starts out serious but quickly turns silly and (un)funny. Many gay jokes ensue. "Whoa, *sentence*? I don't swing that way."
I firmly believe that Cena is at least 3 times as good in the ring as we see him on WWE tv, the bookers just make every match into a fucking Hogan-style match. He starts out decent, heel gets the advantage, **Cena tries a comeback but is thwarted**, 5 moves of doom, bell.
**only takes place in big TV matches or PPV matches; If it's some random midcarder on an episode of RAW, he won't make a failed comeback but just go straight into the five moves**
That whole thing about One Night Stand '06... I'm sorry if I sound like one of these random Cena-bashing douchebags, but that's just plain stupid. Going into a crowd as a FUCKING MEGA BABYFACE and getting BOOED OUT OF THE FUCKING ARENA is not a good thing. "Remaining true to yourself"? That's a load of shit. It's simply Vince shoving it down our throats, telling us what we should like, and not listening to what we fucking tell him: "HEEL TURN!" or "MORE MOVES!" or "LET HIM LOSE!" Although he seems to be listening to that last one lately, but Backlash could just bitchslap that theory out of the water.
The Mass Marketing thing is true. It does make us slightly hypocritical for having been Austin/Rock marks. But I'll be quite honest; in 1998 when I started watching wrestling, I was 9 years old. Austin was far better when I was 9 than he is to me now, and I fully admit that. Rock, on the other hand, his promos are still golden, but whatever. The point I'm trying to make is that whole Mass Marketing Machine thing works a lot better... when the person they're doing it with isn't trying to copy someone else. Cena is trying to be a lame combination of Hogan and Rock and the fact is that he doesn't do either one very well. He has great charisma and can be awesome on the stick, but should be himself.
I'm not a Cena-Hater. I just wish he'd do something different in the ring, on the mic, and stop making so many gay jokes.
Sorry for the rant.
Actually, no, I'm not.
Posted By: m8 (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 08:34 PM
Cena tries hard to improve???How?When was the last time he did a new move?I have some of his matches in OVW on tape and he was way better even then than he is now.He did all kinds of moves.And he worked harder and really was trying.But now he's just resting on his laurels.And his STF(I refuse to insult Masa Chono and call it a STFU)is the fakiest looking move since,well,the 5 Knuckle Shuffle.And who does that move?
Posted By: Gary (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 08:37 PM
you know this is exactly what VInce wants. kids and women love the guy. most guys don't. Who's merchandise sells...wait for it
Cenas
The guy is a riot and I will admit to marking out for the guy. It's called sports entertainment and he entertains me.
he has 5 moves and I have 6 words THE CHAMP IS HERE TO STAY
Posted By: ted g (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 08:45 PM
Austin wasn't shoved down our throats. WWE is blatantly trying to make Cena at his level and shoving him down our throats. They're putting him and movies, talk shows, etc. And it's not working. With Austin, he actually got over. His Austin 3:16 catchphrase got over huge with the fans, so WWE capitalized and made t-shirts for it, and when they were already completely sold out the day they were released and 75% of the crowd at Raw was wearing the shirt, they knew that they had a star. It was when Austin was ready to carry promotion when WWF pushed him to the moon. But with Cena, WWE pushed him prematurely as soon as he showed the slightest potential to be huge. What WWE should've done is let him get over for another year and give him the title at say, Wrestlemania 22, rather than put him all over the title scene.
Posted By: JJ (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 08:49 PM
Wow m8, finally a reasonable argument against Cena. Good job. And I hate the gay jokes too. Not just because they're homophobic and juvenile, but because it goes against character. He's supposed to be the clean cut good guy that cares about working hard and doing his best, and then talks about guys jerking each other off. The Rock got away with that because even as a face, he was kind of a dick. But it seems really lame out of Cena.
I still like Cena, and think he has improved quite a bit, but I would agree that Vince has mishandled him somewhat and a change to his character would be a good thing.
Posted By: Chopper (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 08:58 PM
Thats it, you tell the WWE how to do business. Thats why they're a multi million dollar company and your a smark who writes comments on an internet site.
Posted By: Guest#2600 (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 09:02 PM
I agree Gary. Cena was far better in OVW and back in 2002-2003. His match with Kurt Angle from No Mercy was awesome. He used psychology, and his divin fame-asser actually progressed things because he was working on his neck. And on the STFU, while you can say that the Crippler Crossface was a weaker move, it made sense because Benoit was a SUBMISSION WRESTLER and worked his opponets over. Not only that, but the crossface, throughout it's existance, it was sold as a big-time move, and even post-Benoit, wrestlers who aren't normally submission wrestlers use the move when they have to go out of the box, like HBK @ Survivor Series. Meanwhile, the STF was a resthold throughout it's existance, so I refuse to believe that a non-submission wrestler can use it effectively without working his opponent over. And to go even further, the Walls Of Jericho is a Boston Crab, but Y2J started using it when it was a big time move, so while the Crab has been dengraded to just another submission, the Walls Of Jericho still works.
Posted By: JJ (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 09:06 PM
And there it is. Shocker !!!
JJ, you should write a weekly column for this site.
My names JJ and I hate Cena and every week you could write would he did to piss you off. Youd be hard pressed this week though seeing as he wasnt even on tv.
Posted By: Wyatt312 (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 09:14 PM
"you evil hat00rzz hate Cena, u r wrong, u cant hate on Cena, Cena g00d, Cena work hard, Cena try 2 improve, Cena good wrestler blah blah blah blah blah blah"
yawn
that's all very original and I've absolutely never heard that before. So who are those Bad Evil Cena Haterz, are they homophobic or are they gay, as your hero usually claims when cutting a mean original promo against his enemies? Coz I kinda lost count what is your current line, guys.
Just please don't go all marine on me, I'm afraid I couldn't take it (unless you guys are still bad white gangstas, I'm not up to date on this thing too... Unless you're cowboys now or maybe astronauts)
Posted By: Guest#9758 (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 09:18 PM
I wouldnt really agree with the Walls of Jericho comment though. When done RIGHT its a killer. By that I mean Jericho standing tall, lifting the legs and then digging his knee into the back. Its a killer of a move but Jericho has been forced to tone it down so much in recent year that now it is nothing more than just a crab. I get what you mean though.
I always liked the submission Brock had started to use. He used it on Benoit and in a couple of squash matches. It not only looked painful as hell but it was impossible to get out off.
Posted By: FDuk200k (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 09:34 PM
Cena is an alright wrestler, but he's a horrible actor. The guy sounds like he's reading his lines off cue cards every time he gets on the microphone. I don't expect much out of wrestling, but HOLY DUMB FUCK he's bad.
Posted By: Diarrhea Moustache (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 09:55 PM
Just something to add here, I was at the the Raw in London for the epic 1hr match and it was a lot better live than it was on TV. The commercial breaks really cut up the flow of the match. Watching it live was way better because they worked the match so well that the crowd was on the edge of their seats (me included) for the last 20 minutes with no idea who was going to win. The sad thing was, even after witnessing the classic, Cena was still booed when he was leaving the ring after the match. The Cena haters are just taking things too far, especially when Cena was booed by some of the idiots at Ric Flair's retirement ceremony.
Also its a good point that most of Cena's feuds have been memorable ones. Cena vs Edge was totally intense and it really seemed like they hated each other. Cena vs HBK was awesome. And Cena vs Orton was approaching awesomeness until injury cut it short. They are a good example of when WWE gets booking right with Cena, having slow burn fueds that are dragged out over a length of time. The only other memorable feuds from the past few years are UT vs Batista, and Matt Hardy vs MVP, which have both gone on for an extended period as well.
Posted By: Taiso (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 10:29 PM
What are you talking about? The Cena-Edge feud dragged on after SNME, and while you occasionally saw an interesting twist, it was basically booked on autopilot. Same goes for the feud with Orton.
Posted By: JJ (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 10:39 PM
And don't call me a bandwagoner, either. I actually used to DEFEND the man back when hating him became popular in late 2005. But then I started noticing exactly what those people were talking about. Until around mid-2006, I was basically in denial and refused to believe that he was as bad as they said he was. When he would do his typical formula, I would think, "Goddammit, proove the haters wrong! Shit, you're doing what they're criticizing you for!" and when he would slap on a crappy looking STFU, I'd think "Oh God, no, you're doing it wrong! No, don't let the haters be right!" and I would just deny his crappiness and act like it as no big deal, until one day, I was watching his matc with RVD on the 6/26/06 Raw and toward the middle of the match, I was absolutely jeering Cena and rooting for RVD. The next day, I basically said, "Fuck Cena, they were right the whole time." and found myself arguing against him on a forum.
Posted By: JJ (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 11:14 PM
Cena is great because he makes fat internet geeks cry while they are threatening Vince Mcmahon on Youtube. Anyone who can do that is great.
Posted By: markhenrysqquash9668 (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 11:18 PM
The Throwback.
The Top-rope Rocker Dropper.
The Fisherman Suplex.
The guy has a solid moveset, if you actually watch the matches.
It is amazing that John Cena is dogged for "dominance" in his matches without anyone mentioning the King Of Kings himself... you know, the first HEEL WIN in a Wrestemania main event? Cena can't come close to touching classic Hogan or HHH in reference to dominance...
Posted By: JAMRenaissance (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 11:39 PM
Not a single person on this thread knows what the hell a good worker is. You claim to know what workrate is but none of you know. It takes years for an actual wrestler to become a good worker and to be able to recognize a good worker.
Posted By: Thomas (Guest) on April 20, 2008 at 11:59 PM
Well said. The only reason anyone could have to hate Cena these days is the bland character he's had since 2002. His wrestling just keeps improving and anyone who says otherwise has no business critiquing matches.
Posted By: Joseph Lee (Registered) on April 21, 2008 at 12:04 AM
Yknow what would be great? If everybody jus put aside their previous bias and look at things objectivly. Actually acknowledging what the writer said instead of "Well. Im gonna keep hating Cena no matter what! so there!"
Posted By: Guest#8057 (Guest) on April 21, 2008 at 04:22 AM
I commend the effort but to think the morons will be swayed by any reasoned argmuent is folly.
The IWC will always have sheep who blindly love and blindly hate. Its just one of those little foibles that we all adore...
Posted By: Le Sigh (Guest) on April 21, 2008 at 05:17 AM
I DO think that John Cena hasn't gotten better. In my opinion, he's WORSE then he was before.
Posted By: JJ (Guest) on April 21, 2008 at 05:48 AM
You talk about Cena not improving and such. JJ, you're like a broken record. I hate Cena, Cena sucks, Cena's worse now than he was before. Ok, its settled, you HATE John Cena. You have commented here more times than anyone, you comment in ANY thread about Cena more times than anyone. Change the record, change the tape. Make your point, which you did in ONE post and then leave it. Going on and on just seems more like a cry for attention than anything else. I posted earlier how I was expecting a comment from you soon and low and behold, a comment appeared, then another, then another.
Posted By: wyatt312 (Guest) on April 21, 2008 at 08:15 AM
Bobby Lashley had only one truly good match in his entire WWE run. Who was that match against?
JBL is pretty subpar on the ring, with only one **** match in the past few years. Who was that match against?
Umaga is good for a big guy, but has all the limitations that come with it. He's only had one widely-agreed-upon **** too. Who was that match against?
There's evidence of Cena being a good worker in all of his high-profile matches, but those three - where he wrestled an opponent notably subpar in terms of in-ring ability and dragged them into a good-to-great match - that offer proof. Wailing and nashing teeth and saying you thought those matches were bad doesn't discount this, it just makes you look ignorant wrestling-wise.
Posted By: Ian (Guest) on April 21, 2008 at 08:46 AM
I dont understand why certain people on here are having to over emphasis their point. The whole point of this page is Julian saying why he doesnt hate on John Cena. He says why, he says what he likes about Cena, what he doesnt. He doesnt say Cena is perfect and all he is simply doing is saying why he doesnt hate Cena. Its a one page report and thats it, he says everything thats needed to be said.
Then you have certain people on here (sorry JJ, but I do have to point you out) who just seem to be posting the same things over and over and over. I learnt way back in January that you hated Cena. There is was the whole thing about Cena coming back to the Rumble and you posted an insane amount of times about how much you hated Cena. Since then, with any post about Cena, you jump in about 10+ times about how much you dislike. Isnt it enough to simply say 'I dont like him, others might, I dont'. And leave it at that. You always have to attack why other people dislike him, just because they dont agree with you.
Ok, attack is probably a strong word, but I dont understand why you need to continuely post, stating the same thing over and over and over. If you hate him THAT much do something about it. Make a web site, start a petition, apply for jobs at WWE to show them how it should be done, but please, for the love of God, stop posting the same stuff about Cena. You dont like him and you have your reasons. No one can change that. Others DO like him and have their reasons and you cant change that. If you dont like wrestling because of Cena then dont watch it. Its pretty simple really.
Sorry this has turned into a rant on you, but out of all the names I see over and over again in a Cena thread, yours is always the one I notice.
Posted By: FDuk200k (Guest) on April 21, 2008 at 08:49 AM
jj wow dude its WRESTLING not life and death. OK you hate the guy. good for you. I like him and enjoy watching WWE because it makes my shitty monday good again. I laugh my ass off for 2 hrs and appreciate the athletcism (yeah I know they ain't all athletic) Plus I get to look at maria and mickie's ass once a week. JJ take a break dude.
Posted By: ted g (Guest) on April 21, 2008 at 09:13 AM
I DO think JJ's arguments haven't gotten better. In my opinion, they have gotten WORSE than before. If you really hate Cena that much, change the channel.
Posted By: Captain_Snackpipe (Guest) on April 21, 2008 at 09:25 AM
The last time I saw an enjoyable match of cena was ONS2, where he was greeted like someone who SHOULD be a heel. He actually played off the crowd quite nicely(tasted throwup). Cena needs to be a heel to have any credibility in the ring. And he would be a heel if VinnyMac wasn't so scared of losing money from the fugly moms and snot-nosed little brats who purchase his shit then it may have happened after ONS2. So, bottom line, the guy is still average in in-ring ability but a great heel persona can work wonders for that. Just ask Hogan.
Posted By: Scrotum Pole (Guest) on April 21, 2008 at 09:30 AM
JJ you really are blind. Egda vs Cena was a hot feud for a long time. Memorable moments were Edge taking out Cena's dad, brawling outside the arena until Cena eventually threw Edge into the water, and that insane TLC match where they damn near killed each other. How is that autopilot booking?
Posted By: Taiso (Guest) on April 21, 2008 at 09:57 AM
Love Cena or hate Cena, he steps it up in main event matches. The IWC is always known for protecting and overrating their favorites, despite the fact that they couldn't draw a reaction if they were set on fire.
Mark my words, the same IWC sheep who bashes Cena on a daily basis will end up calling for Edge's head next year. BANK ON IT!!
Posted By: Shone Jones (Guest) on April 21, 2008 at 10:42 AM
I hate WWE's John Cena.
I respect West Newbury, Mass's John Cena.
It's fun hate Cena's character, but c'mon don't take personal.
The guy had great matches but see him with the title became boring that's the real problem.
Posted By: guest2008 (Guest) on April 21, 2008 at 01:15 PM
People talk about Cena's "limited move set", and other people talk about wrestlers being told to tone down their wrestling, take it easy out there, don't do anything crazy, etc. Cena is just doing what he's told to do. LOTS of wrestlers have a limited move set. In Ric Flair's book, he talks about wrestling a guy who he said "became his Sting" and they wrestled the same match, did the same moves that he did with Sting. Even the "great" Ric Flair didn't want to call a different match with someone besides Sting. Triple H almost always uses the Pedigree, Stone Cold almost always uses the Stunner. Even when we see it coming and we know Austin is going to stun someone during his yearly in-ring appearance, we still pop for it. There was a recent 411 article about the importance of finishing maneuvers. If Cena had a different finishing move, or a few finishing moves, the people wouldn't know it was coming and wouldn't pop for it. Or, when he got the pin after, say, a stunner, a ddt, a pedigree, a powerbomb, a crossface, or whatever, the people wouldn't care or wouldn't pop, or they would boo him, or would say he "stole someone else's finisher". Other wrestlers would get mad at him for using their finisher. I like Cena, he's a talented and he's funny he's funny. He may not have had a great match with Khali,(so people some claim. I didn't see it.) but he had great matches with Shawn Michaels. He had good matches with Benoit and Triple H. I didn't see those matches, but I saw Cena vs Michaels on Raw, then the next day, I read on this site that "Cena and Michaels put on another great match", or words to that effect. I think that not even Shawn Michaels could've gotten a decent match out of Khali. I don't know if Khali is capable of a great match. It takes TWO very talented wrestlers to have a good, or great match. Give the guy a break.
Posted By: Chico (Guest) on April 21, 2008 at 01:36 PM
There comes a point in every person's life where he becomes so happy to be where he is that he doesnt try to push himself and he actually becomes less able to stay where he is. Cena is just at this point. once something (I'm thinking a big match with universal critism that he isn't good) lights a fire under his butt he'll force himself to improve his in ring work.
Posted By: Davy (Guest) on April 21, 2008 at 02:37 PM
I admit, I like Cena. I don't own any T-shirts, and I probably never will, but I still like the guy. But I will also admit he's gotton very stale over the past year. Now, I had no problem with the year long title reign, as I was there for the 3 title changes in one Nitro Vinnie Ru era of WCW. Long reigns build credibility. And if not for the injury, when Orton beat him straight up last October at No Mercy, Randy would have had HUGE credibility. He would have beat the man that no one else could beat. He would have beat SuperCena. But, with Cena's injury, none of that ever happened. I think what would be best for Cena now, is for him to be in a WWE title match, one on one with whoever, and LOSE. Lose one on one, clean, no excuses. Cena haters will like that, I think. Then he should step away from the WWE title scene. As suggested here, let him challange for the IC title. If he won it, I think he would at least DEFEND the fuckin thing. Assuming creative remembers it exists that week. After Cena builds back his credibility, THEN let him challange for the WWE title. And lose. The first time. Build a good feud and have him win it back when the time is right. But I don't think it will happen. That stupid spinner belt cost Vinnie Mac a hell of a lot of money, and he's gonna hock as many fake toy spinners as he can to get that money back. Which means Cena will, more often than not, hold the title. If he HAS to be the champ, let him go back to his old ways that got him over to begin with. Let him free-style rap, but without the dick jokes. Let him be the guy that does stand for what he believes and won't budge from that stance for anything. Stop catering him to kids, and start catering him to the key demo of men our age. Guys hate Cena because their girlfriends love him. If I bring up wrestling around any of my 19 year old sister's friends, the first thing they say is "John Cena's hot." If you're at a show with the girlfriend, and she says that, you're gonna get pissed. Guys wanna see him get his ass whipped so they can ask their girlfriends "How hot is he now, with his broken face?" WWF did the same thing with Diesel back in the day. They turned him from a bad motherfucker to a generic babyface with no edge at all. Cena simply needs his edge back. He might need to lose a little to get it back.
Posted By: the Mad Redneck (Registered) on April 21, 2008 at 03:04 PM
You all know if Cena was stil taking the pis ot of Michael Cole every week you would still cheer him!
Posted By: macca (Guest) on April 21, 2008 at 03:22 PM
As someone who's defended Cena quite a bit himself here on 411, kudos for your nice article, hitting on the head why the guy deserves more respect than he gets. He truly loves the business, has since a kid, so you can't say he doesn't feel passionate enough about it and when you look at those big matches, you can see that at work. Again, good job.
Posted By: Michael Weyer (Registered) on April 21, 2008 at 04:18 PM
The reason why I keep attacking people is because they're basically telling me what I like and calling me a moron for having a fucking opinion, and telling me that my opinion is wrong. What am I supposed to do, sit their and take it?
Posted By: JJ (Guest) on April 21, 2008 at 04:36 PM
So how come in some of your replies your saying 'I totally agree with you *insert name* Cena does suck and for the 10th time I'm going to say why.'
You've done it in THIS thread so dont bother trying to deny that. Say your piece and then move on. Its a thread. What could people say here that could remotely effect you? Be the bigger man here and leave it at that. The main reason people attack you is because you post the most and you post the same stuff over and over, either saying why you hate Cena, agreeing with someone who hates Cena or disagreeing with someone because they like Cena. Its the net, everyone has a different opinion. You've made yours clear.
Posted By: FDuk200k (Guest) on April 21, 2008 at 05:25 PM
The reason people like u Fducky attack JJ is he speaks the honest truth(personally I don't care how many times or ways he does it)about cena and you cena fanboys can't take it. I know that can be hard for some of you but if you don't like it WWE started their own tenny bopper club and you should join it sounds more your speed.
Posted By: Scrotum Pole (Guest) on April 21, 2008 at 06:25 PM
Yes, I realize that I've stated my opinion a billion times, but when people are STILL calling Cena haters full of shit and only have their opinion to be cool, despite the fact that I've clearly stated my reasons for hating him multiple times, all I can do is say it for the umpteenth time rather than pulling a Goku and being peaceful.
Posted By: JJ (Guest) on April 21, 2008 at 06:30 PM
workrate, schmorkrate, I dont really give a crap about it or try to pretend I so totally know what it is. I just know what I like and what I dont like. And one of the things I dont like is Cena. Simple as that.
You believe that makes me evil or whatnot (yes, the stupid "hater" moniker), you silly Cena-loving sheep? Tough luck, I dont give a crap about what you think either.
Posted By: Guest#9449 (Guest) on April 21, 2008 at 06:40 PM
I tried to read all the comments to make some arguments. I really did.
First off, if you fell asleep watching the one hour match, chances are you would fall asleep during any one hour match. I don't know if you suffer from insomia, had a rough day, or things of that sort.
were do i stand as a wrestling fan?
I don't like the STFU. I don't like that he thinks he's a marine. I don't like the fact that he has changed the spinner belt (that's not really on him though. but to me it just telegraphs title match results. It may not represent where it is, but it tells you where it's goin)
However, i like the fact that he never failed a drug test. I like the fact that he can have matches that are largely considered to be good (except for by JJ and Gary). I like the fact that he doesn't have a large injury history.
The wwe likes him because he sells the most merchandise. So don't blame him. Next time JJ Junior asks for you to buy him the new John Cena shirt, you tell him to shut the fuck up!
Posted By: steveo (Guest) on April 21, 2008 at 06:43 PM
Ok, where ANYWHERE here have I said I'm a Cena fan. Teeny bopper club? Probably would work if I was a teen, as Im not I guess I'll have to give it a miss. Sad that really. Pitty sarcasum doesnt carry in text. Are we to suggest then that the major people who are supporting/defending Cena on this site are all teeney boppers as well? What about the guy who wrote this article?
So people call Cena haters full of shit and have their opionion to be cool. Heres a piece of advice. GET OVER IT. They state their opinion to be cool and you stating yours is different..how? Is it because you're right and they're wrong? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. You can think jack what you think about me because you dont know me, but however you form your opinion, its yours and your entitled to feel it. I really couldnt care less if Cena retired tomorrow, I couldnt care less if the WWE went under tomorrow. Theres a big world out there with alot more to think about than one guy in a wrestling company. You've said you dont think Cena has improved in the ring. Thats your opinion. People have writen why they think he has and you have disagreed with that. Youve said you hate Cena. Thats your opinion. You've said Cena is the reason you dont enjoy wrestling anymore. STOP WATCHING IT THEN !!!
Theres at least 3 posts here where no one has asked you something, they have simply stated an opinion and you have replied back with a post either disagreeing or agreeing, but you use the same arguments all the time. It gets tiresome, it gets boring and it comes across like you have nothing better to do that bash John Cena. He is a draw, (UK fans were not happy he wasnt on Raw and the UK fans BOO him) he is the face of WWE and he is (injuries permitting) probably going to be around for a long time to come. So either get a job at WWE and tear him down or just get used to it.
Posted By: FDuk200k (Guest) on April 21, 2008 at 07:00 PM
...and another thing. Do you honestly thing that there are Cena fanboys on an internet smart mark site! That's about as likely as a pro-gay marriage republican.
If anything there is an abundance of asmarks. That being, arrogant smart marks. Those who think they know better than the rest of the wrestling community just because they do their research and read an opinionated column and take it as fact rather than think about it and make their own decision. that is arrogance.
I'm not accusing anybody on this comment board of being an asmark. (although they are on here).
By the way JJ. I am not accusing you of being an asmark. You have an opinion, that you formed by yourself. You're just a smark. It's the fact that you keep on showing up that people wig out about.
Posted By: steveo (Guest) on April 21, 2008 at 07:10 PM
Well I hate ignorance. I thoroughly explain why I hate Cena, and yet people are still calling me a bandwagoner. Whenever I see ignorance, I HAVE to comment on it.
Posted By: JJ (Guest) on April 21, 2008 at 07:49 PM
Clearly.
Posted By: FDuk200k (Guest) on April 21, 2008 at 07:55 PM
you know I enjoy this site a lot. JJ I have no problem with your opinion. I have one to. We don't agree.....uh.....sooooo what. I don't call you names for your opinion. I don't ridicule your opinion and believe me WE ALL know your opinion. So when Cena comes on your screen pleases change the channel and donLt get so wound up
Posted By: ted g (Guest) on April 21, 2008 at 08:26 PM
Don't worry, I've been doing that since February.
Posted By: JJ (Guest) on April 21, 2008 at 09:04 PM
January actually.
Posted By: FDuk200k (Guest) on April 21, 2008 at 11:08 PM
