411’s Buy or Sell 5/16/08: PWG’s DDT4 2 Tournament, Ring of Honor’s Next Hammerstein Show, Ring of Honor Tag Titles, and More!!

Posted by Michael Bauer on 05.16.2008

The 411 staff discusses the highly anticipated PWG DDT4 2 Tournament this weekend as Bayani Domingo battles Jarrod Westerfield!

Welcome everyone to WEEK Fifty-Six of BUY or SELL. For those of you who haven't been with us since the beginning, here's the Reader's Digest version of what this column is all about. BUY or SELL is very much like 411's long-running Fact or Fiction column. The main difference is that BUY or SELL focuses on topics like the U.S. Independent scene, Lucha Libre, Japanese Wrestling and pretty much anything else that isn't mainstream wrestling, WWE and or TNA. This allows for these areas to get a bit more press and for you, our loyal readers, to learn even more about the sport of professional wrestling.


Week Fifty-Six's Match-Up:
The Guy who never misses a PWG Show and Truth B Told Writer Bayani Domingo vs. Scrpted through Sin writer and Huge Bayani Mark Jarrod Westerfield! This one has been brewing all week so let's dive in!

Ring of Honor's attendance record of over 2,100 will be broken again in August when the Motor City Machine Guns appear at Hammerstein.

Bayani Domingo : BUY. Why not? You figure that RoH is doing pretty well NY and I don't see how they wouldn't be able to do at least as well in August as they did just last week. I have a feeling that if they get even 5 more people they can claim attended the show they will announce another record setting crowd. RoH is no stranger to the infamous "hype machine" and the practice of giving their attendance numbers a little "shine" if you will. What this question is probably asking is whether the MCMG's are going to be a huge draw and thus account for even more fans coming to see the show. Well RoH fans are pretty loyal and other than a Jeff Hardy vs Teddy Hart main event they are likely to watch any card that RoH puts out there. That being said I think maybe a few more fans will make an extra effort to see the MCMGs and if TNA decides they want to push them they might get even a few more TNA-centric fans to show up out of curiosity. So I don't see why you would "sell" on this unless you want to take the road that you don't like predicting ‘gate' numbers.

Jarrod Westerfield : BUY . Shouldn't be too hard as the trend with these shows usually is "growing a bigger crowd with each return" that's a trick that never gets old until, of course, you sell out the thing and have no room to place extra bodies into the building – stupid fire codes. With the appeal of the Guns in TNA, like Bayani pointed out, it's pretty obvious that they can only help. Throw in the potential for a rubber match with the Briscoe's and you have more of a reason for ROH fans around the area to come out from their rat nests and fill up the giant Ballroom.
While Bayani scratches his head to figure out if the question is really, secretly trying to ask if the Guns will have a drawing affect on the show while it tries to manipulate itself into Angelina Love's short-shorts, I'll just come forth and state an astounding "yes." Why wouldn't the Guns be considered a factor in better selling this event? As much as I hate to say it, they have more exposure because of TNA and that deal has loaned itself well to any promotion that has booked the Guns on their card – shit, I know it drew me out to the Garden State for my first JAPW show, and I was easily tempted to kill my way onto the line to purchase the tickets for the August 2 show right there on the spot until I realized I'm more poor than Necro Butcher's ring-attire.

1 for 1.

Despite being the first two teams announced, neither Steen-erico nor the Age of the Fall will be the next Ring of Honor Tag Champions.

Bayani Domingo : SELL . Okay, who else are they going to book for this tournament? Not to say this sounds eerily similar to another tourney that's going down this weekend at the Burbank Armory on Saturday and Sunday night…per say. But, if you are going to have a proper tournament you need at least 8 teams. If you want to speculate on the other 6 you could say: NRC, Sweet ‘n Sour, RuckSaw, YRR, and probably some thrown together teams like Albright/Claudio, Aries/Danielson, Stevens/Delirious, or Dempsey/Hamburglar. What RoH doesn't need is another mis-match thrown together tag team as champions. I may be in the minority here but I kind of think the whole "Stable Wars" has floundered thus far as I really don't care anymore about NRC, Vultures, or the now defunct HM3 than I did before, nor do I care about their individual members. The only other real stable that has gotten some real storylines behind it is "Sweet ‘n Sour Inc." and they have exactly….ZERO titles between them. If you don't count the "Intergender Championship"…which I do…so they got 1.

The two most important and popular tag teams in RoH are Steen-Erico and AoTF and if you aren't going to let them have the titles to stabilize them then you are basically using them as "booking devices" or accessories. Letting AoTF actually carry the titles for longer and do something significant with them would really help build up the momentum that Tyler Black had earlier this year, also a possible match-up with the MCMGs in say the Hammerstein Ballroom would be great. They've wrestled before in PWG and it was a damn fine match. If anything I think Steen-erico are more likely to take the titles and I'm going to preface it with the stipulation that if they drop the belts at DDT4 it will be because they will be holding gold in RoH instead. If RoH drops the ball on finally recognizing Steen-erico as worthy champions then I'm not sure what the hell they are doing anymore.

Jarrod Westerfield : SELL. I should probably buy this just to be different from Bayani, as technically I'm only here to do the J.O.B. to him, but let's face facts here; ROH's tag division is really shaky especially after the horrible decision of moving the titles off of the NRC was made all for the sake of doing this. Why they didn't just have NRC continue to feud with Steenerico with the title being the focus of it is beyond me. Who else could carry this division? We already saw how long one Briscoe did and it was annoying to see that the company couldn't just pull the switch and admit to making a mistake by putting the straps back on the team when Mark was known to be hurt and required surgery soon after winning the belts.

But some good can come out of this tournament structure as it rebuilds the strength in Steenerico as a tandem, and introduces a field of viable tandems. If Gabe is smart, we see the return of Bobby Fish and Matt Cross as a unit that could shake things up here. Eddie Edwards teams up with Hero to represent that unit, and who knows maybe they'll mesh well with one another? You could see Irish Airborne available for the tournament to loan it some insta-credibility [just add water and heat in microwave for up to 2 minutes] and you certainly could try out Ruckus and Jigsaw as a serious tandem, though I'm still banking on Vulture Squad dying out the second Kingston is ready to go back to work. At the end of this, the tournament could really help Steenerico in a big enough way to make up for the blunder that was them not at least getting a fall at Manhattan Mayhem II – I just wish they thought about just putting the straps on them before having to make this decision.

2 for 2.

Editor's Note: The previous question was asked and answered before the remaining six teams were announced.

PWG should hold up the World Title until Aug and make the BoLA '09 winner the new champion.

Bayani Domingo : SELL . I know some people are probably calling for this to be the case, but I think we need to focus on the fact that it is 3 months away. To have no champion for 3 months is unheard of and I don't think any major Indy fed or company could really mitigate that glaring hole in their roster. Imagine if the WWE said they were just going to wait 3 months to declare a World Heavyweight Champion. If they don't name a champion this weekend I'll be okay with it due to the Tag Titles being the real focus of this weekend's shows. Now they have an early June show to either put the belt on someone or they could conceivably wait until their July double shot dates. I really think they need to either crown a champion or have one going into the July shows because it is the Anniversary Shows and having an Anniversary show for a promotion and NOT have a champion is just ri-DOC-ulous. It would basically be saying, "Hey, look how far we've come…and we have no one representing us…Yay!!"

While a part of me thinks PWG would be just as well off holding off until BoLA in order to make the BoLA win actually MEAN something rather than just having someone win and end up losing their title shot, it just seems too far off. Now had Tornado hurt himself this weekend or in June that would be a strong possibility, but I think waiting till BoLA is just inadvisable. The other loophole here is that the CIMA and Danielson situation with last year's BoLA shot is still unsettled and if you make this year's winner the champion then it pretty much just cocks up that whole situation for those two. My guess is since Dragon Gate is running their show in LA the week after they'll have CIMA cash in his shot at BoLA and still enter about 4 guys in the tournament so that would require a champion already being named, right? My prediction is that there will be a "World Title Tournament" of sorts at All-Star Weekend 7 with some qualifying matches taking place this weekend and in June.


Jarrod Westerfield : SELL . Again, I actually thought about going against Bayani here, but thought better of it. I really am indecisive about things like this, because on one end of the spectrum is the fans could be patient enough to see a proper champion declared at one of PWG's biggest events and tournaments, something that eliminates the need to establish a regular show into a tournament just to get on with the crowning, while on the other end, no matter how quickly they go about crowning a champion, any time that passes without at least an answer to the question of what they'll do with the title will leaves the fans to detract from the show that doesn't crown the champion. I'll bank on the mentality of the spoiled New York fans being something that is more wide spread to the rest of the wrestling fans community than I'd actually like it to be – that they're just going to detract from the show no matter what, but more so because they're wondering how long before their champion is crowned and who is the face (representative) of the company. No matter what, I don't think PWG is going to completely win out here, but waiting 3 months without a champion is only going to exacerbate the situation and antagonize the fans to want to detract from the show until they get their title matches.

3 for 3.

SWITCH~!

RoH telegraphed Strong/Evans losing in the tournament by announcing Jack Evans would be missing dates due to "international commitments".

Jarrod Westerfield : BUY . I doubt there was much momentum to expect Strong and Evans to win the DDT4 2, but information like this does put dampers on whatever upcoming dates a worker has in the states as you know they'll have to be slowly eased out of big programs to accommodate their lack of presence. It's like with guys in the WWE failing a drug test, you hear that and you know they're going to have to miss time. But this isn't to say that Strong and Evans won't possibly advance throughout the tournament, they just can't be expected to win as I doubt PWG wants their title scene to be stuck between a list of injured workers, and missing in action as one half is off touring the rest of the world.


Bayani Domingo : BUY . I don't know about no one thinking that Strong/Evans wouldn't win the titles; I just think they were just on the outside looking in. Remember that Strong won last year's DDT4 and has been a PWG regular for the past year so his winning the tournament again was a real possibility. Then again Jack is prone to disappearing to Dragon Gate a few times a year making it difficult to really book him long term. The real problem here is that RoH really did telegraph the booking here because they don't have any real working relationship with PWG and I don't think they would care either way if their announcement might have spoiled it for some Ex-GenNext fans. That being said I wouldn't put it past PWG to put the titles on them just to have them lose in two or 3 weeks at the next show just to f*ck with folks. Doubtful, but it could happen. If I was one of "The 6" however, I might be a little pissed that RoH gave away one team already losing in the tournament, if anything all it does is make it seem even more likely that the winner of the Luchas/2.0 match will make the finals. Assuming that's the bracketing of course.

4 for 4.

Team 2.0 of Jagged and Shane Matthews will be the surprise team of DDT4 2.

Jarrod Westerfield : BUY. I'll bite. The question certainly doesn't call that they'll be the surprise winners of the event, but they'll be a surprise in that they might get the crowd really behind them, give them a couple of matches to talk about for the weekend, or even longer, and establish themselves as being a team the rest of the indy scene should keep an eye out on. PWG pretty much has established that they're the company, much like the IWA:MS was about 5 years ago, that's creating the indy scenes new big stars – they've done it with Steen, Generico and Richards, and this appearance from Team 2.0 might help get some big time exposure. A surprise of us all, I can assure.


Bayani Domingo : SELL. WOW Westerfeld, you really took a bold stance on that question and laid it all out on the line. "2.0 will be popular, have good matches, and increase their visibility as a result of wrestling in a bigger Indy Fed in the states". That is just brilliantly insightful. I gotta write this down and send out a myspace bulletin. That is just ballsy to be sure.

C'mon man, have some balls and make a prediction here. I really don't know what to make of this statement because with the exception of a handful of "PWG boarders" who have watched maybe one youtube match and a few promos, there isn't all that much hype or press behind these guys. Some people are calling them the "Canadian Arrogance" already, but from the two matches I've seen they are only "Canadian Arrogance" if this was 2003…when the exchange rate was much weaker. Making them only 74% of the awesomeness of the American version. 2.0 just isn't a big enough name right now to be an instant "hit" so they have their work cut out for them. I would be surprised to see them even make it past the 1st round, let alone into the finals since they are such an unproven commodity. I have them down as losing in the first round and then putting their comedy stylings to better use in the 8-man match on the second day that is usually a comedy match anyways. Then again they have 2 matches to prove themselves as PWG is known for "booking on the fly" at times.

Right now the buzz on these guys is that they are "good comedy heels" who are "passable" in the ring. If that's the case then it'll be interesting to see how they'll differ from "The Dynasty" who already run a similar gimmick. The only way they would "surprise" anyone is to either win the whole tournament or be completely mute for all of their matches. Remember that although Steen and Generico worked out great after coming from the "Big White North" aka IWS, they also had more than a few let downs like Sexxxy Eddie and Franky "The Mobster". Those guys were both "one and done" so don't expect that everyone that Canada sends down will be instant stars, eh. Ya hoser.

4 for 5.

PWG would be better off taking the tag titles off Steen-erico and letting them wrestle as singles competitors to shore up a depleted World Title scene.

Jarrod Westerfield : SELL . I've never been a fan of killing one division that is prominent for the sake of favoring another that needs help because of circumstances beyond the writers/bookers control. You don't need to kill off a tag team, which hurts the tag team division, for the sake of focusing on the main event that is only bound to fix itself soon as more guys return from injury and whatever tour dates they may be working. Given time the world title scene will return to normal sooner than one would think, so let's not try and go and kill Steen-erico immediately to fix something that's already on its way to becoming healthy again.


Bayani Domingo : BUY . Oh J-Weezy…you silly lady. Everyone knows that Tag Titles don't ‘draw' these days, World Titles do. It's not so much cutting off your nose despite your face as much as it is that you have no f'n FACE right now. Right now the tag team division is in shambles, it's so bad that even the Youngbucks are unavailable since they're in Japan getting UBER tang right now in Dragon Gate and we all know that Japanese girls love the long haired Gaijin. If I were them I'd totally pass myself off as the Hardyz and be pulling JapaNookie all…night…long. Although it would make sense to leave Steen-erico to team up and defend against the other handful of teams they have left, the World Title is the more pressing matter. Especially with BoLA on the horizon.

I'm not sure what you know about PWG, but their World Title picture doesn't just "fix itself", there is no rhyme nor reason at times and the booking is so random that guys like Tornado lose their title after only one 15 second title defense, Joey Ryan ends up with over a year old title reign based on cheating, and deserving guys like B-Boy, Chris Bosh, Davey Richards, and Chris Sabin are left to twist in the wind after being embraced by the fans. If you look at your statement that guys will be coming back from injury and coming off tour, who the hell are you talking about? Tornado is out for at LEAST a year, Super Dragon is wrestling, but he'll never be 100% or probably even 80% back from the injuries he's worked through over the years, and the only guys on "tour" right now that are PWG regulars are PAC and eventually Jack. Neither of which will probably ever be PWG Champions because of their erratic International schedules. Plus who knows when Danielson or Low Ki will be back. That's not even accounting for Eddie Kingston who magically just disappeared off the radar. There are just too many variables.

I don't think anyone that has followed PWG for a number of years can say with 100% confidence that the World Title scene will be fine, sure it probably will be, but you have to hedge your bets and if you can secure at least one, if not two former champions to help stabilize your biggest priority then you should do so. Right now Chris Hero is the only real strong Championship contender and even he recently ate a pin from Roderick Strong (perennial PWG bridesmaid). Everyone else was so intertwined into the Hero/HT storyline that no one else seems to be that strong of a possible champion. Besides, the whole reason Steen too a "leave of absence" from PWG in the first place was to spend more time with his family back up North. I kind of doubt that situation has changed much. Besides, I think it's obvious that if Steen-Erico becomes RoH tag champs like everyone expects then PWG will become an even more distant 2nd or even 3rd place on the list of priorities. Why keep your title on two guys that aren't a "lock" to be around anyways? As tag team champs you have to be able to book both of them on the same dates, but as singles competitors you double your chances of booking at least one. Simple math.

4 for 6!


The Fifty-Sixth edition of BUY or SELL finishes at 4 for 6. Stay tuned for next week when two new men will go head to head with a whole new set of topics.

But wait… We Have a Bonus for you!! And this is not a direct going against one another, so we let each of these guys freestyle how they answered the following:

Give your DDT4 2 Tournament Brackets and reasoning.

Bayani Domingo :Okay here we go, the brackets are…exactly how they look on the graphic on the mini-site from left to right:

First Round
Los Luchas vs 2.0

Winner: Los Luchas
I know that the poor Luchas seem like they are only in this thing to make 2.0 look good, but I have a feeling that when it comes down to it they are going to have to put guys through to the next round that will be able to match up well against Strong/Evans and I think Los Luchas match up better in terms of workrate and the ability to fly around with Evans and just take a vicious ass beating fro Strong. Besides, booking Los Luchas as possible champions are a hell of a lot cheaper than the Canadians.

Evans/Strong vs Sky/Ronin

Winner: Evans/Strong
I can't see the last team that snuck in on a technicality beating Evans and Strong. Besides SkyNin would have to match up against 2.0 in the 2nd round since they've already wrestled Los Luchas countless times and I just can't see that being a very good match at all. Plus, you want to keep Roddy booked strong because he is not only one of the unsung MVP's of PWG but always a good guy to have in the World Title scene…perhaps…the next world champ?

"The Dynasty" vs KAGEBlazer

Winner: The Dynasty
If Ibushi didn't break his ankle I would have had them going to the second round. I just don't see the make shift team of El Blazer and KAGETORA being able to make it past the more established team here.

Steen-erico vs Dragon/Davey

Winner: Steen-erico
It wouldn't make sense to have Steen-erico lose their titles right after winning it in the very next match. On top of that I have a feeling they might get some inadvertent help as well from an outside source. I could see The Dynasty helping to cost SDD their match as retribution for Dragon distracting them when they lost their titles. Either way it should be a good match depending on how much of it Super Dragon works.

Semi-Final Round

Los Luchas vs Evans/Strong

Winner: Los Luchas
Jack is going to eat the pin here as he'll be out of PWG for a while and it keeps Roderick somewhat clean going back into his singles push. I think Los Luchas will be a sentimental favorite as two guys who represent so much about what PWG is about, good local SoCal talent you otherwise wouldn't see. If RoH didn't telegraph Jack leaving I think this would go the other way.

Steen-erico vs The Dynasty

Winner: Steen-erico
It'll probably be SDD returning the favor…that was already returned. Or if not The Dynasty will lose but not 100% clean. I just can't see PWG not having the NOW hottest team in tag team wrestling on the Indy scene not making it to the finals. I think a lot of people are expecting it and it would be deflating for them to lose in the semis.

Finals

Los Luchas vs Steen-erico

Winner: Los Luchas
I don't even know if I think they'll really win, but I think they deserve to. This frees up Strong/Generico/Steen to go back to chasing the World Title and gives some local guys a much needed rub and creates some fresh match-ups. Plus, if you don't book Steen and Generico for the next show in June you can save some money for All-Star Weekend 7 and Battle of Los Angeles which come up in July and August. Simple economics. Boo-YAH!!


Jarrod Westerfield :I'll assume that Bayani and myself will be utilizing the same bracket to start, as supplied by PWG's last news update about the event, so it might look similar until the semi-finals. So with that in mind, let's get into it:

DDT4 First Round Match
2.0 (Jagged & Shane Matthews) vs. Los Luchas (Phoenix Star & Zokre)
Well, I said Team 2.0 would surprise and produce some quality matches to get the fans buzzed so I figure they should be able to upset Los Luchas to move on and get in a second match in the tournament for the sake of getting the fans interested in them. Anything less and I think the fans may think they were a bust and not worthy replacements of the Briscoe's, though that stigma may be very hard to shake off for many fans who were expecting the Briscoe's to be in action.
Winners: Team 2.0

DDT4 First Round Match
Jack Evans & Roderick Strong vs. Ronin & Scorpio Sky
I'm torn here, as I think it would be okay to move Evans and Strong through, but some might feel slighted knowing Evans and Strong won't realistically win due to Evans touring schedule so you'd want to move forward Ronin and Sky to add in that intrigue of who could end up heading to the finals, 2.0 or Ronin and Sky. Forget it, I'll just go with Ronin and Sky and think this might appeal more PWG fans as they battle it out with Team 2.0
Winners: Ronin & Scorpio Sky

DDT4 First Round Match
El Blazer & KAGETORA vs. The Dynasty (Joey Ryan & Scott Lost with Jade Chung)
Prior to the change, I had pegged that Ibushi and KAGETORA wouldn't get far, and that they'd drop, here, to the Dynasty for the sake of furthering the story with Ryan and Lost with Dragon and Richards, but this is El Blazer. Anyone who is anyone who has followed any of the indy promotions out in Japan has been awaiting the American debut of El Blazer, the man of many masks and gimmicks, and this is big enough to warrant their move up to the second round.
Winners: El Blazer & KAGETORA

DDT4 First Round Match - Pro Wrestling Guerrilla World Tag Team Championship Title Match
El Generico & "Mr. Wrestling" Kevin Steen (Champions) vs. Super Dragon & Davey Richards
Again, much like with Evans, it seems any steam of buying Dragon and Richards winning and taking on a full time role as the champions is unthinkable given Dragon's current conditions. A part of me thinks I should give it to them just to see PWG further something with Dragon and Richards, but it's really a tossup for me as to whether that move would be wise, or timely given the circumstances around here. So I guess the only other option is The Dynasty costs Dragon and Richards in the match.
Winners: El Generico & Kevin Steen (Retain)

DDT4 Semi Finals Match
2.0 (Jagged & Shane Matthews) vs. Ronin & Scorpio Sky
I'm very tempted, again, to give it to 2.0 to further gain them some notoriety and appeal with the fans, but I think this might be where they would have to hit the brick wall. But a part of me thinks this roll has to keep going to really keep up their interest.
Winners: 2.0

DDT4 Semi Finals Match Match - Pro Wrestling Guerrilla World Tag Team Championship Title Match
El Generico & "Mr. Wrestling" Kevin Steen (Champions) vs. El Blazer & KAGETORA
So with the Dynasty and Dragon/Richards out of the picture, we get to see El Blazer and KAGETORA move on and challenge the champions, Steenerico. This is going to be fun – let's see and count the many high spots that Blazer throws at us in the course of a single match with a high flying generic luchadore and a large but very agile and powerful Canuck. This would make for a better story as you have the champions really fight through to get to the finals.
Winners: El Generico & Kevin Steen (Retain)

DDT4 Finals Match - Pro Wrestling Guerrilla World Tag Team Championship Title Match
El Generico & "Mr. Wrestling" Kevin Steen (Champions) vs. 2.0 (Jagged & Shane Matthews)
We'll end up the night with 2.0 pretty much living up to Steen's words and delivering some big time action here for the sake of establishing they belong in the PWG environment and were more than worthy replacements for the Briscoe's. Here Steen and Generico retain without any interference, rebuilding their confidence from the previous rounds wins via outside wackiness.
Winners: El Generico & Kevin Steen (Retain)