411’s Buy or Sell 7.25.08: Claudio Castagnoli, Go Shiozaki, Dragon Gate in California, and More!!

Posted by Michael Bauer on 07.25.2008

The 411 staff will look ahead to this weekend’s big RoH Shows as Chris Lansdell battles Bayani Domingo!

Welcome everyone to WEEK Sixty Six of BUY or SELL. For those of you who haven't been with us since the beginning, here's the Reader's Digest version of what this column is all about. BUY or SELL is very much like 411's long-running Fact or Fiction column. The main difference is that BUY or SELL focuses on topics like the U.S. Independent scene, Lucha Libre, Japanese Wrestling and pretty much anything else that isn't mainstream wrestling, WWE and or TNA. This allows for these areas to get a bit more press and for you, our loyal readers, to learn even more about the sport of professional wrestling.


Week Sixty Five's Match-Up:
The New Ask 411 Wrestling Answer Giver Chris Lansdell vs. Truth B Told Writer and PWG's Favorite Son Bayani Domingo!

Dragon Gate will out draw the biggest PWG crowd in their first United States show.

Chris Lansdell : BUY . I'm pretty sure this is going to piss Bayani off more than a ban on ethnic porn, but it's going to happen. Dragon Gate is one of the most exciting and entertaining promotions in Japan, with influences from lucha to strong puro to WWE. The West Coast is the perfect place to debut this. PWG fans will be familiar with much of the talent and will pay to see it, plus you have the expats and the smarks who will pay to see anything Japanese. Maybe not by a buttload, but outdraw it will.

Bayani Domingo : SELL . Trust me, it wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit to see PWG get out sold by another company coming into SoCal and to be fair I'm a lover of all colors and ethnicities of Porn…except Cambodian. Yeah, they know why. But I just can't see Dragon Gate doing the 600+ they will need to do in order to outsell PWG. That's the number I believe that they achieved for the last BoLA and for All-Star Weekend 5 when Joe vs Ki was featured. Right now I've seen the seating chart and DG is set for between 800 and 850 seats roughly if they sell out. Considering that they are taking a two pronged attack by having CIMA sell tickets at the OC Fair and at an Alternative Wrestling Store show in two weeks as well as on-line sales, which I'm hearing that the website and confirmations are kinda tricky, you would think that the tickets would be selling like hotcakes, except I don't know a lot of people who have bought them already. Then again chances are that at least half the tickets will be bought at the door.

While I do agree that Dragon Gate is one of the most popular Japanese promotions in the US now and thanks to their talent exchange with PWG and New Japan's pulling out of the Inoki Dojo, they are THE top puro fed in SoCal I think we soon forget how disappointing RoH did here. Then again RoH didn't run in Los Angeles which I think was a huge mistake. Still you can't necessarily say that "product quality" always translates into ticket sales. I'm pretty sure that if they do work with PWG to sell a DVD of the show they'll make a nice little profit however. I really do think LA is the best place they could have held the show considering that through PWG SoCal fans are familiar with them, on top of that LA boosts a huge Japanese population, in fact I was a Beard Papa's the other day on Sawtelle and saw a poster for the show. Damn those are some fine cream puffs. But I digress, Lansdell is right about LA being a good location, problem is I don't think that DG will do as well as they hope for the a number of reasons.

Traditionally Friday is the WORST day to hold a show in LA. Mainly due to traffic and work obligations. History shows that the PWG shows held on Fridays have been the lowest drawing shows. Another problem is that traditionally PWG shows that Dragon Gate has been a part of only seem to draw between 20 to 30 more Japanese fans than normal shows do. It's not hard to tell who is there for whom either and while I do believe that a purely puro show will double or even triple that number I don't think that will make up for the loss of ticket sales due to it being a Friday show. Another factor is that tickets are going for $50 to $20 and that is fairly high. That does lie somewhere between PWG and AAA, but it is still a pretty pricey ticket. Plus add in the fact that all SoCal fans aren't Puro fans and you can't underestimate how many PWG fans go for their SoCal guys more so than the "Fly-ins" and If you add all those factors together with PWG's recent sagging attendance numbers (maybe 350 fans came to the last show) as well as RoH's poor numbers and I think Dragon Gate will get somewhere around 450 to maybe 550 fans, but I think they'll fall just short of PWG's high mark. However, I really hope I'm wrong about this and Dragon Gate gets close to selling out because I would love to see this become an annual thing. Too bad the venue and date just seem to not be a great fit. Oh well, I already got my tickets so at least Dragon Gate already has a 5 seat head start.

0 for 1.

Go Shiozaki's value is dropping by being involved with the Heartbreak Express in addition to Sweet N' Sour Inc.

Chris Lansdell : SELL. Tough call, but I have to go with the Sell here. As awesome as they are, S&S are basically a comedy act. Heartbreak Express definitely are, despite having shown a serious side a few times. Go is not the biggest name that RoH bring over, so putting him with those two factions won't kill him. Besides, FIP and RoH are two different promotions.

Bayani Domingo : BUY. Not that it was that high up there compared to guys like KENTA, Kobashi, Marifuji, or Morishima, but it's not being helped by being involved with so many comedy stables. I know that Go isn't being booked like a monster like Morishima, or a featured attraction like those other guys, but I'm starting to see his time in RoH for what it really is. A chance to diversify his arsenal, improving his ring ability against a different class of opponents, and garner more ring time and hopefully improve his charisma as a result. To me it just seems like RoH is happy just to have him on the card and saying "look, you guys like Japanese dudes right, well we have one" and isn't worried about booking Go as anything special on their shows. So in that sense I think Go's value has dropped just barely because he went from "attraction" to "step above student" very quickly. This would be a great question for "Ask 411 Wrestling": Who is the most disappointing NOAH guy to wrestling in RoH? Wait, does NOSAWA count? Never mind, I hear that column has been going to hell lately anyways.

0 for 2.

Kenny Omega will be a full time RoH wrestler by the end of the year..

Chris Lansdell : SELL, for now. I have seen precisely nothing of this guy, but I'll get a nice up-close look Friday night. There are a lot of talented guys that have had tryouts with RoH and are not on the main roster, so Omega has his work cut out for him. Delirious will bump for him I have no doubt, the key will be how he sells Delirious' offence and how convincing his looks.

Bayani Domingo : SELL. Who? If it wasn't for the 411 Indy draft I would have no idea who this kid is. I assumed he came from the Power Plant and tag teamed with Kenny Kaos. I guess he's a former WWE Development talent however so he'll get a shot just like Idol Stevens and Brent Albright did. I think Seth Skyfire got a shot too but I have no idea what happened to that guy. The year is coming to a close and with another 4 weeks to build up to Final Battle I don't know that RoH needs anymore talent right now as they are struggling to interest me on the talent they already have left over from that botched "Stable War". Sometimes when you already habe a packed roster of talent people you don't need to add a guy who just isn't going to end up being a "difference maker" or might never be a "star" just to increase said roster *coughLansdellcough* just to plan for the eventual attrition. I think Omega will probably put on a decent match with Delirious since Delirious is a very skilled wrestler and has a way to help rub his weird charisma off on just about anyone, but since I know nothing of the guy and I fancy myself as a pretty "with it cat" on the Indy scene I'll say "nay".

1 for 3.

SWITCH~!

The booking of Marufuji for his upcoming two week tour shows that RoH has no clue how to book him.

Bayani Domingo : SELL. I don't think that RoH doesn't have a clue how to book Marufuji, I think they have a very good idea of how they want to book him and that is to not book him into any real feuds or prominent angles. They are essentially booking Marufuji as an "attraction" and almost NOT booking him at all. The problem is that Marufuji, like KENTA but to a lesser degree, is a fairly prominent name in Japan and hence amongst the RoH/Indy smark set. They can't really count on him to be booked for long extended periods of time like they were able to with Morishima or even GO and they would be foolish to have him either upset some regular with a title win or consistently book him as an unbeatable assassin that might accidentally bury other talent that is more readily available. Booking Marufuji against Strong and then teaming with Strong is almost cliché as they'll no doubt battle each other mercilessly…or…without Remorse, and then gain a mutual respect that will translate into seamless teamwork the next night. Blech. To be honest Marufuji is on the card to get a few more buys and tickets sold based on his name and because he almost always guarantees a great match, people reading too much into him being more of an integral part of the promotion are going to be sorely disappointed if they keep doing so.

Chris Lansdell : SELL . As Bayani said, they can't exactly give him a feud. Putting him in a title match makes him look bad since there is no way he's going to win, and letting him beat two different main eventers doesn't exactly help THEIR cause. I'm actually looking forward to seeing him vs Strong (one of the few matches on the card I'm excited about) and having an established Japanese name on PPV can only help buyrates. Because these days, it's all about ratings and buyrates.

2 for 4.

Ring of Honor's card for the Toronto debut is hurt by the PPV taping the next night.

Bayani Domingo : SELL. The Toronto card features a lot of potentially good matches, but without a lot of significance to them outside of Steen/Nigel and perhaps the Non-Title Tag match. Even so I'm not a big fan of rehashing this angle with Aries and Jay as they seem to be really treading water on this angle until I see some more advancement, then again my guess is we'll see Lacey make her return this weekend one way or another. The real build and selling point to this card is Steen challenging Nigel for the championship and based on that I don't see the card being hurt too much by the PPV taping. The only two reasons that Toronto might be hurt theoretically is if they are saving a title change for the PPV instead of the Friday show or if guys decide to take it easy on Friday as to not be too dinged up for the PPV taping. If they decide to let Claudio go over Danielson then we'll probably see Nigel retain and Steen's journey towards RoH gold continue. The thing about RoH shows is that they tend to throw in random surprised and swerves in an effort to not be predictable and while I'm pretty sure Steen isn't going to be the guy to take down Nigel I don't think that match is lacking just because a PPV is looming. As far as guys not going all out in order to conserve something for the arguably bigger show the next night…this is RoH, these guys would kill themselves on a regular basis and don't seem to give a f*ck. If RoH is serious about expanding then telling their guys to slow down in Toronto is simply not an option, Then again, it's Canada…who cares, eh?

Chris Lansdell : BUY. Not only will I buy this, but I will pay over the asking price. Steen vs Nigel is a given: Nigel wins to defend again vs Claudio and possibly lose. Nigel-Claudio has been built too well to drop it now, and Steen has 0 heat with him. The hints that Claudio will leave if he doesn't win are pointing to him winning, and RoH don't do single-day title runs. I've also said before that I doubt we will ever see the world title change hands outside a PPV taping again. Danielson-Claudio is another one that's obvious: AmDrag isn't dropping two in a row to the same guy, in a short space, when he will probably be facing him for the title down the road. Plus, RoH has a habit of letting a guy lose the night before a title shot. Guys taking it easy is a minor concern when the two biggest drawing points of the card are likely to be the biggest foregone conclusions. Well, outside of Omega-Delirious. A random surprise or swerve, outside of Lance Storm wrestling or me getting bizzay with Lacey and Becky Bayless, can't be big enough to turn that around.

I'm not expecting to be disappointed with the quality of the matches, as I'm sure they will go all out and establish the market. I'm just concerned about the obviousness of the outcomes.

2 for 5.

Claudio Castagnoli will walk away from Ring of Honor after the Detroit Pay Per View taping.

Bayani Domingo : BUY. I'll BUY this, but on with the caveat that "Walk away" is more of a "short vacation". Claudio isn't going to TNA and even if he does a tour of Japan then I wouldn't think it would last too long. Most touring happens during the summer and right now those tours are already in full swing. If Claudio does "kayfabe" leave then it won't be for long and I know they are trying to make Dub-C look more important by teasing a "Win or Go Home" ultimatum from him but I'm not buying it. He's not working heavily in CZW and even if he does have more work in PWG or CHIKARA to make up for it-it wouldn't make sense for him to leave RoH unless he is being promised a big "push" upon his return. More than likely this will end up with Claudio either losing the title and leaving for a month or two and then returning to take on Nigel again, or Claudio being brought into Sweet ‘n Sour somehow. I think it's inevitable that everyone will be in S'nS at some point, that's actually what I think happened to Randle, although I don't want to give away any *Spoilers*. Claudio isn't quitting RoH, but I would completely BUY him leaving it for a month or two. Just cuz' you "Walk away" doesn't mean you can't come crawling back. I'm sure Lansdell isn't a stranger to that saying.

Chris Lansdell : BUY . I'm no stranger to crawling, you do it every time we face off in one of these things, begging me to give you back the pride I took. ANYWAY, this is an easy one for me to buy, because I don't see Claudio losing. I think he walks away from Detroit as the champion. If he doesn't...sure, he might take a sabbatical. A trip to Japan, some time to rest up, perhaps even get his work visa sorted. WWE is in such a flux right now that they might still take him if he gets his ducks in a row. As far as I know, he signed a contract with RoH the same time that Danielson did, which would mean he's signed through October/November. It's possible he signed later than that, with the uncertainty of his move to WWE around that time. With that in mind, I can't see them releasing him from that contract without so much as a hint of it being released to the markboards.

3 for 6!


The Sixty Sixth edition of BUY or SELL finishes at 3 for 6. Stay tuned for next week when two new men will go head to head with a whole new set of topics.

Oh, and before we go...

BONUS: Lansdell's Hidden Highlights and "I blew up Randle! Numerous Purchases!" signs will not make the DVD.

Bayani Domingo : BUY. No friggin' way they even make it half way through the show before some guy starts pelting Chrissy with Cadbury bars and empty cans of Molson Ice. If there is one thing Indy fans hate, it's "markishness" and nothing says, "I'm a Mark" like a cardboard sign at an Indy show. All I know is if some guy in front of me kept blocking me during matches with a sign that I didn't even understand I would shining wizard his ass back to Moose Jaw. Or whatever province said Canucklehead came from. Plus, I'd get away with it too since I'm Asian and everyone knows that the Shining Wizard is our birthright. Sorry Lansdell but maybe we'll get it as a special "easter egg" if you click on Kenny Omega's singlet at the start menu.

Chris Lansdell : BUY , sadly. I'll make them anyway, in case someone catches on, but I can't see the editing team keeping them in unless something major happens right in front of me. I can dream though, right?