Ask 411 Wrestling 08.20.08: Down South Edition

Posted by Chris Lansdell on 08.20.2008

For some reason, there's a ton of questions about southern guys and Kings of the Ring this week. Not that it's a bad thing. Also, who raised the briefcase? Why is Taker not retired? Was he Lord Humongous? How do high-fliers learn to, well, fly high? Join us for all this, and MORE!

Greetings, humanity! Welcome once again to the home of all things trivial, Ask 411 Wrestling! I'm your quiz master Chris Lansdell, and we've got a bucket load of wrestling-fu for you. First of all, SHOUT-OUTS to Jeremy Thomas, the ever-awesome BYERS~!, the original Family Roaster, and Asian Sesame salad dressing.

BANNER!



From the peanut gallery...

Just to correct what that reader said about ratings, 7s and 8s for Raw were the exception not the rule. In fact, the highest Raw in history did an 8.1 and that's the only time it happened. The highest rated over-run was a 9.2.

Raw typically did 5s and 6s, not 7s and 8s "weekly".

Posted By: Guest#5364 (Guest) on August 12, 2008 at 11:35 PM

A few other people pointed out that Raw and Nitro aired simultaneously and got a combined 9 or 10 rating, which is insane.

I miss Nidia, but not so much Lita. By the time Lita left, I was so familiar with the sight of her enhanced-beyond-recognition chestpendages that they no longer held any appeal, even as a novelty... on the other hand, I had only just BEGUN to get acquainted with Nidia's unnecessary (yet delightful) implants when she was released. Are any of the Tough Enough kids who got let go still wrestling anywhere? Maybe that would be a good question for next week's column...

Posted By: KanyonKreist (Registered) on August 13, 2008 at 12:49 AM

John Morrison and The Miz are both graduates of that program. Kenny King, who just signed on with RoH was also on it.

"In all seriousness, Vince has a long marriage to Linda and 2 children besides. As Gorilla Monsoon would say, 'Highly unlikely.'"

I'm pretty sure that bisexuals get married and have kids all the time, actually.

(Which isn't to say that the story is true. But still.)

Posted By: Karlos (Guest) on August 13, 2008 at 01:13 AM

A lot of people picked up on this, and I admit it was phrased badly. The problem is, I can't now remember what point I was trying to make. And for all the people who quoted such irreproachable sources as Warrior Warrior and Kevin Nash...please.

Enough rabble from the cheaper seats! To the questions!

Brad B is going south and old school simultaneously. TALENT~!

Love the column. Keep up the good work. I have 3 somewhat varied questions for you, all of them are old school.

1. As a kid I grew up watching Memphis Wrestling. It was basically all we could get. Of course I was a Jerry Lawler fan. I remember an angle where Lawler was fighting Tommy "Wildfire" Rich in a match. Lawler's long time friend Austin Idol came out to presumably help Lawler, but turned on him and he and Rich layed a beatdown on him that culminated in them posting Lawler's crotch what seemed like 8-10 times. They even went as far as to shoot vingenettes of Lawler at the Dr.'s office. My question is what was the entire storyline of the turn and what was the payoff? I just don't remember either.

This was in 1987. Rich actually hid under the ring in a hair vs hair cage match between Idol and Lawler, and emerged to cost Lawler the match and his hair. This caused a riot in the famed Mid-South Coliseum as Lawler was and is beloved there. It was a complete shock at the time and came out of nowhere. Rich cut a promo shortly after saying that Lawler was the past and he was done, that the fans wanted Idol and Rich and not Lawler. The feud went on for a LONG time, as feuds tended to back then. Lawler finally got revenge with the help of Bam Bam Bigelow and Superstar Dundee, about 18 months later. Even at that point, they had so many matches that it would be difficult to know which one to call the blow-off. I do know that Rich got a blow-off from Missy Hyatt at a stop light, but Who didn't?

Poor Jim.

2. I was also a fan of Superstar Bill Dundee. I know he had a brief run in WCW will William Regal in the BlueBloods. Aside from that, has Dundee ever made it to any of the big feds? And what kind of gold has he held in his career?

Dundee was on of the few big names of his era never to go to WWF. He was in the NWA, USWA and AWA, at least two of which qualified as big feds at the time he was there. He's held gold in all of the above, numerous times, tag teams and singles. His son JC Ice made it to WWF briefly as part of the original Nation in the tag team known elsewhere as PG-13.He's held dozens of titles across the southern promotions over a 22-year period. His last title was the OVW Heavyweight title in 1997.

3. I remember a wrestler named Lord Humongus. He was a blatant rip off from the "Road Warrior" movie with the hockey mask. I heard at one point that both Undertaker and Kane played the role at one point. Is that true? And who did play the role?

I dunno, he seemed like a cross between Demolition and Jason Voorhees to me. Lord Humongous was played by several people: Mike Stark (1984), Jeff Van Camp (1984 and again in the 90s), Gary Nations (1987) Barry "Bull" Buchanan/Recon/B-Squared/Bling Bling Buchanan, Randy Lewis and Emory Hale (all in the 90s at various times). The most famous person to be Lord Humongous was Sid "Softball" Vicious.

It would appear that Kevin is a fan of the big men…

Hello, my name is Kevin and I'm a long time reader of 411, but this the first time I've sent in questions.
 
1.  My first question revolves around Diesel back in his WWE Championship reign.  I know that when he started out his title reign he was one of the top babyfaces in the company, but when he lost the title at Survivor Series 1995 to Bret Hart, it seems that he had evolved to a tweener, almost heelish character, even though he was still cheered.  Did was there ever a storyline that converted Diesel to this new role, or did fans simply begin to turn on him?

He was a massive experiment that led to the Attitude Era. Well, that might be a slight exaggeration, but he certainly contributed. The idea was to have him perform some questionable actions that weren't full-on heelish but would be enough to make some of the fans boo him, while the rest would keep loving him. Basically the bookers wanted to find out if a tweener was viable as a focal point. I checked with semi-retired Lansdell predecessor Ryan Byers for some specifics:

Ryan says:
I specifically remember him cutting a promo stating he said he still had his own fans and that, if he saw the fingerless Diesel glove on them, he'd know they were his fans and slap their hands.
Ryan says:
Perhaps the most overt merchandise shill until DX started making them intentionally blatant for comedy's sake.

So it wasn't exactly a storyline, more of a subtle evolution of character and an experiment.

2.  I remember Undertaker talking about retirement years ago, as early as 2002.  Are there any specific reasons why he chose to stay in the business?
 
Money, crowd reaction and the promise of more title runs. Despite how over Taker is, a lot of wrestling fans don't fully realise just how phenomenal his accomplishments are, and how respected he is. He has stayed on top of the card for over 10 years, only breaking for injuries. He is the most recognisable person on the roster, and the most respected person backstage. It would be hard for anyone to walk away from that, but Mark loves the business and feels like he has more to give. And to earn, but who can blame him for that? Undertaker retirement rumours have been pretty much an annual occurrence for the past 5 years, around Wrestlemania, as everyone expects him to retire after either ending or extending the streak. With WM25 being in Houston, we have possibly the biggest chance of that happening, especially if he faces HHH.

3.  This is mainly an opinionated question, but did you think that the Umaga character would last this long?  I, for one, thought that he would be sent back to developmental after a couple of months, but it seems he's evolved into one of the best big men that WWE has had in years.

Interesting question. When Umaga debuted I did what I would imagine many others did and shook my head in shame. A Samoan savage? Really Vince? REALLY? Why not just call him Samoa Mo? As he had been up on the main roster before and had spent time in Japan, I didn't think he was likely to be sent to OVW, but I did figure he would be fed to Cena or HHH and then disappear. I was half-right, at least. I was impressed with his ring work pretty much right away, as he's been blessed with the most important ability of a big man: make everything look like it kills. He's athletic for his size and has shown he can work with big guys and smaller ones, as long as their name is not Batista. I would class him as the best new big man in the past couple of years, to be sure.

Brendan has performed a rare feat…

There was a ECW 4 or 6 way match maybe around 97-99 era where all the wrestlers did the infamous ‘ECW plancha spot' on to each other all outside the ring, one by one. The crowd got all kinds of rabid for this, so out of nowhere, the ref did one himself onto to all the wrestlers to make them get back in the ring. Do you know what show this occurred on? Can anyone locate footage? That would have to rank as an all-time classic ‘wtf!?!?' moment in wrestling…

Brendan my friend, you have done something special. Something so rare that were I not a tight-fisted bastard, it would qualify for a prize. You have managed to stump not one, not two, but 4 writers for this site.

I must have seen this spot a dozen times in various clip montages, with a guy in a ref shirt doing a plancha to the outside. Between myself and Mr Byers we reckon it must have been The Extreme Official, a.k.a HC Loc, since most others wouldn't be capable. Loc debuted in ECW in 1999, when he was assaulted by Steve Corino with a cowbell, and was there until they folded in April 2001 so that puts the event in that time line. Given your guesstimate of 97-99, we're probably looking at the front end of that period. Other than that, you've blanked us. Readers?

Hey Chris, my names Eddie

Hi Eddie! This is a pencil. The stapler is behind you. On fire. In bed! The clown!

and I have two questions.

Then I shall provide you with answers, young padawan. Well, you might be young. I suppose that's a bit presumptuous of me, really.

1. How do highfliers learn to do moves like shooting star presses and
450 splashes? Surely its not a trial-and-error thing as messing up those
kinds of moves could seriously injure themselves or others.

It's not really a case of LEARNING the moves, since there's not much to learn. You either have that sort of control over your body, or you don't. In Jericho's book he mentioned that he did indeed learn a high-flying move (I'm pretty sure it was the shooting star, but I don't have the book right now since I lent it to a friend) by practising it over and over in Mexico. A guy I used to wrestle with would go to the local gymnastics club and practice the rotations on a trampoline with a harness before trying them on the mat, but even that is still trial and error since even I can do a moonsault or a 450 on a trampoline with a harness. This method is far more common these days, as you quite rightly state the danger inherent in twisting your body in mid-air. Ask Hayabusa how a botched quebrada feels. I do know that they don't teach these moves in WWE Developmental since they are trying to discourage the use.

2. 411mania covers a lot of wrestling promotions, but how come you don't
talk about CZW? This is just out of curiosity as I don't/can't watch CZW
anyway.

Easy answer: It sucks.
Proper answer: We only have so many writers. The big promotions (WWE, TNA, ROH) get covered well because they're easy to follow. FIP, SHIMMER and CHIKARA are covered because they are arguably next in line and their stuff is fairly widely available (and sent to us free! Thanks guys!) and stuff like Puerto Rican wrestling, PWG and some of the regional indies get covered because we have writers who follow them and live in their territory. Japan is slightly different: Matt Short lives there for parts of the year and thus finds it easier to follow, but some of us (Mike Campbell and myself, for example) get the odd DVD and keep up with matches via YouTube. If CZW want to come to Newfoundland, or send me some DVDs, I will gladly review them. The same goes for any other fed out there. Except IWA-MS. I wouldn't like to speak for Dunn, Csonka and the other reviewers, but I dare say they would do the same.

Bill wants to talk Chavito…

You've already answered one of my questions, but this is my first time
writing to you. I enjoyed the column The Way IC It you did for a while,
and I'm happy to see the end of that column was not the end of your
stint on 411.

Thank you! You can also catch more Lansdell every Sunday morning for the Sunday Brunch News Report!

I've been watching wrestling only off and on for the past few years, but
I want to know: has there ever been a good Chavo Guerrero match? I
remember him from back in WCW, and the things that stick in my mind are
Eddie forcing him to wear that T-shirt, Pepe and being an Amway
salesman, but not any of his matches. And the stuff he does now in WWE
is pretty much just JTTS material. Did he have some really great matches
and I just missed it?

Really great? No. Good to very good? Lots of them. The way Chavo was booked in WCW may have turned our stomachs, but he managed to combine it with some quality matches against Rey and Eddie in particular. One thing WCW always did very well was to allow the cruiserweights to do what they did best: shine in the ring with flashy moves. I wouldn't say he's been relegated to JTTS status nowadays, he's had some title runs and is still booked fairly strong. Pepe was gold, by the way. GOLD. I always wanted to see Chavo and Saturn team up and have them come to the ring with Pepe and Moppy. That would have ruled all.
Darrel is hailing King Bookah…

Hey, whats going on.  Love the column.  I'm a long time wrestling fan, although i've fallen back a bit lately.  I have two questions, if you dont mind.  My favorite wrestler is Booker T and my first question is, I've heard rumors about the repercussions, but how much, if any, "heat" did Booker T take for the infamous interview he did in which he let the "N" word slip?  Man, the look on his face directly afterwards was PRICELESS.

No heat, just a TON of ribbing. If you watch the clip (it's not hard to find…) Sherri almost loses it and Mean Gene's lip is trembling. It was more a case of "I can't believe you just said that!" than "You're an idiot and we hate you." Of course if he did it now the FCC would likely fine him and Spike and TNA and Viacom and Panda Energy and probably Rasheed Wallace and Terrell Owens eleventy billion dollars for it.

And secondly, in your opinion.  When you chronicle the careers of both Booker and The Rock, from their beginnings all the way up to their respective title runs, given the accolades and props The Rock receives, do you think Booker should be mentioned in the same regards?  Going from tag team specialist to heavyweight champion, that's big, especially given he was the company's 2nd black champion.

Booker broke some virgin ground, and came through a lot of crap gimmicks and lousy treatment to get where he got. I don't think he can be fairly mentioned in the same group as Rock though. While Booker was breaking ground, Rock was breathing rarefied air (metaphors FTW!) as one of the top 5 stars ever created by the WWF. Booker never shifted a tenth of the merchandise or sold out a fifth of the arenas that the Rock did. Booker was the second black WCW champion…the Rock was the first person with any black heritage to win the WWF title. The only thing Booker did that Rock didn't was move from tag team standout to singles star, which is not as rare as you might think (Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart, Scott Steiner, JBL and the Hardys, to name a few).
 
And as a bonus, if you don't mind.  Was it his match with Sting, where he filled in as a tag team partner against I believe the Road Warriors, that really opened the company's eyes about his potential? Thanks!!!

I don't mind, it's what they pay me for. And by pay I mean thank. And by thank I mean let me continue writing. Anyway, Booker's potential was first noticed in his best of 7 series with That Dude. Of course, That Dude could make anyone look good, but with Booker he brought out things that management weren't aware of. Of course seeing as this was WCW, they probably didn't realise that That Dude was bringing it out of him. Still, the performance of Booker in that series is what convinced WCW to hitch the cart to him, so to speak. Possibly a bad metaphor to use for a black man, but as a black man myself I can get away with it.


Excellent, a question from a guy I actually know! Steve wants to know about champions and titles…

Hello Chris, congrats on the new column. I know that the God-awful
spinning belt has been beaten to death (funny it doesn't spin when
somebody other than Cena is the champ). My question regards the names of
the titles themselves-- for years now we have had the "WWE Champ" and
the "World Heavyweight Champ". Which title is more prestigious, and who
says so? The World Heavyweight Champion wrestles for World Wrestling
Entertainment, so couldn't he claim to be WWE Champ as well? Technically
speaking, the Women's Champ and the ECW Champ wrestle for WWE as well,
and could make similar claims. Why doesn't the WWE just rename the
titles as the "Raw Champion" and the "Smackdown Champion" to simplify
things? Do you ever think we will see a champ-vs-champ match, even if it
were non-title, as part of a storyline where the 2 respective guys claim
to be the best?

We've explored the question of which belt is the most prestigious before. Generally speaking it's been the one on Raw, though some will tell you that's only because Triple H was on Raw. Vince decides which title gets pushed as most prestigious, and right now it's tough to say which is being treated as the better. In terms of non-kayfabe prestige, the Big Gold Belt (currently around the manly waist of one CM Punk) is acknowledged by WWE as having the lineage of the old WCW title, but the WWE belt has as much history. The deciding factor in my mind is that the WWE title was never retired temporarily, which gives it a slight edge.

The second part of your question is a semantics issue, which happens to be my strong point. Technically all the champions wrestle for WWE, down to the US and Intercontinental champs. The difference comes when you say "THE WWE Champion" as opposed to "A WWE champion". Renaming belts is generally a bad idea as it takes away some of the history in the eyes of fans, and would create an interesting situation when Vince next decided he wanted to swap the champs.

Champ vs Champ? I won't rule it out. I very much doubt we'll ever see the end of the brand extension, so it would have to be a non-title match. They did something similar to this at Cyber Sunday 2006 in a 3-way, Cena vs Big Show vs King Booker, with King Booker winning and being declared the Champion of Champions. It was an decent storyline even if the loser of the vote (to see whose title was on the line) was always going to win.
If they made it non-title and promoted it a bit I could see it headlining a minor PPV on a regular basis, since WWE is searching for an identity for some of the smaller PPVs (e.g Night of Champions).

Sander is determined to make me cringe by mentioning that bump. You know, this one:



Ow.

i have a question regarding wrestemania 19.In the main event Brock Lesnar was supposedly knocked out cold after horribly misjudging a shooting star press, but i watched the match recently and the ending surprised me. After the accident, Brock was still capable of delivering the F-5 to Kurt Angle, Performing that move seems to require not only power but also coordination. The injury wasn't a work, of course, but still.. how was that possible? Was Lesnar operating on pure instinct or was he just not as badly hurt as people think? thanks in advance for answering.

The fact that Lesnar had no neck saved his life. He escaped with a concussion from that, somehow. Anyway, the finish of that match was 95% Angle being awesome and basically F5-ing himself and 5% Brock being conscious and intelligent enough to realise what was going on. Although Lesnar deserves credit for keeping a clear enough head to go with the improvised finish, the real hero of the scene was Angle.

Dom touches on a subject dear to my heart: Tony Schiavone. ALL HAIL!

I had a question about Tony Shivane. I know that Russo had an angle
years ago with Tenay and Shivane in Tna; but I was wondering why he
hasn't been hired. I know that Tony isn't the greatest announcer that
ever lived but I still think he is better than some of the crap out
there right now.

Don West literally wheezes at times. I kid you not, there have been
times when I mistaked his wheezing, when calling a match, for my cell
phone vibrating. Tenay is average at best, and I think the entire IWC
and anyone else with half a brain could agree that Adamle was beyond awful.

I know that Shivane is doing other things now, but I would imagine
that Vince/tna could make him an offer that would work for him (Like
Vince did with Joey Styles).

Schiavone is doing quite nicely for himself as a sports anchor for two stations and with an upcoming gig as the PBP guy for the Atlanta Braves AAA affiliate. He would likely view going back to wrestling as a step in the wrong direction. When you consider that he was on the receiving end of a lot of (very unfair) criticism over his perceived lack of announcing skills, and that Vince has more PBP guys than he can use right now, there really is no reason for either side to want to do this deal. As much as I might pine for it, because really, Schiavone > Cole.

I heartily laugh at and agree with your comment about Don West and Tenay is far FAR better as a colour guy. You do realise that Adamle's sucktasticness was a work though, right?

Matthew wants me to arbitrate a debate...

Hey, could you please settle this debate i'm having with my brother. He swears blind that The Undertaker is, or used to be, a member of a Biker gang, and he used to claim this way before 'Taker became a biker on-screen. I've looked on google but can't find anything, and I reckon he's talking crap. I know Mark Calloway is a pretty shady character, but was he, or is he, a gang member, and if so, what gang?

Taker in a biker gang? Our brother took you for a ride. See what I did there? Anyway, categorically not true. He's certainly a motorcycle enthusiast, as are many other men, but that's a far cry from being a gang member. Of course, the comments will now probably fill up with people who know Taker's housekeeper's mother's uncle's babysitter's dentist's wife's tennis coach, who confirmed that he's actually a Hell's Angel.

Dino wants to talk royalty, WWF royalty.

1. I just finished watching the 1993 king of the ring and I just remembered (because the last time I watched this was like....1993...) that the WWF World Title Match between Hogan and Yokozuna (the one where the cameraman has the "flash of doom" that blinded the hulkster) came before the IC Match Between HBK and Crush which came before the main event where Bret won the crown. My question is, is there an explanation as to why the WWF title match is not the main event? and I know you will answer "because the King of the Ring finals is the main event", well then how come the IC title match came AFTER the WWF World Title match? How could the Hulkster allow such a travesty (feel the sarcasm) to happen?

You forgot the epic tag match pitting The Smokin' Gunns and The Steiners against Money Inc and The Headshrinkers. The main event of a PPV is not always the last match, nor is it always a title match. We need look no further than Sunday to see the proof of this. The IC match was put in the middle of the title match and the King of the Ring finals to break up the two main events. Main event performers hate going on after another main event or high-paced match out of a fear that the crowd will see their match as a let down. In recent times the intervening segment has become known as the "Diva Spot" because for the longest time it would be a woman's match there.

2. In the 1995 King of the Ring, was Mabel really the winner they wanted to have from the start? Because I have heard before that it was actually HBK who was supposed to win.

The fans certainly wanted that, as Shawn had just turned face again and was pretty damn popular. Unfortunately for us and Shawn, Vince was at the apex of his "Bigger is better" phase, and thought Mabel made a great monster heel. The results of this PPV read like a comedy of errors now (Mabel over Taker? Michaels and Kama in a Broadway? Savio Vega, period?) and it is universally panned as the Worst PPV Ever.

3. In the 1996 King of the Ring, HHH was originally supposed to win that one if not for the MSG Incident right? Austin ended up winning the tournament, my question is, was Austin the original replacement for HHH as the 1996 King of the Ring or was there someone else(like say....Vader or Goldust?)

You are correct in saying that HHH's push was taken away after the MSG Cliq incident. HHH ended up with a dark match on the card against Aldo freakin' Montoya. Austin was the first choice to replace HHH, allegedly at the prompting of Jake the Snake Roberts. At least, that's the way Jake tells it. What sort of state would the WWF have been in had Austin's push not started then?

4. In the 1999 King of the Ring, who the hell raised up the briefcase when Austin was reaching for it?

Ahhh, the infamous phantom briefcase. For some reason, nobody seems to recall the GDTV segment that aired a few weeks after this incident where the Big Boss Man admitted to doing it. Good thing I remember it.

That's game, set and match boys and girls. As one to go on, who can tell me which Cartoon Network show name-dropped Ric Flair, and who was involved? Winner gets immortalised! Keep the questions coming folks, and stay cool.

Lansdellicious – Out.