Ask 411 Wrestling 09.17.08: Big and Bad Edition

Posted by Chris Lansdell on 09.17.2008

Worst match ever, Eddie Guerrero's blade job, CM Punk's look, WWE styles, WCW not moving to Tuesdays, dream matches, wrestlers who transcend winning, most over-rated wrestlers and Moolah's title run. All this, plus a match with over 1000 pounds of beef, and it's a singles match!

Greetings, humanity! Welcome back to Ask 411 Wrestling. As always I am Chris Lansdell, and I'm both rejoicing and resenting. Rejoicing Derby's well-deserved win over Sheffield United on Saturday, and resenting the umpires in game 4 of the Red Sox-Jays series, who blew a call at second that could have won the game for my boys. Ah well, such is the nature of real sports, and There's Always Next Year (copyright Every Toronto Team Every Year Since 1993).

We're continuing some minor tweaking with the format of the column, so feel free to tell me what you like and what you don't. This week's theme music: I Wish... by Drain Sth. Shout outs to Jeremy Thomas, rafiki, Ryan Byers and fresh mixed berries.

BANNER!


Banner compliments of Benjamin Colon. See more of his work at soulexodus.com.

Cleaning Up

Additional stuff under the ring: A microphone (BarnDude), an air mattress, Tommy Rich and a case of beer (presumably at the same time, from elguapo1974), a canoe, a bowling ball and a canned ham.Right now, things that are commonly under the ring: The Boogeyman, Hornswaggle, a Bella Twin and the depths of hell (Dogface Gremlin)

I'm not going to list off all the gimmicks that you all mentioned, but holy crap reading them made me wonder how WWE ever survived the early 90s.

Regarding Kane's title win: Kaneanite (and several others) correctly pointed out an additional reason for Kane's win – he had promised to set himself on fire. But wait, that would have been scripted, no? So wouldn't the win already have been decided on BEFORE he said that? Self-fulfilling prophecies make my head hurt. Where's my Sword of Truth? (Once again, Lansdell makes a reference that 11 readers will get)

Regarding the Fingerpoke of Doom: Perhaps I should clarify what I meant by "culmination of a storyline". I know the match hadn't been hyped, but it was painfully obvious to everyone who'd been watching Nitro that the leaders of the two nWo factions would face off at some point. There was no overt build, but it wasn't hard to foresee.

Regarding chest chops: I don't agree that they look like shit. Just look at the chest of someone who's been wrestling Kobashi, Go Shiozaki, Roderick Strong or Erick Stevens. The actual strike CAN look bad, but then so can just about any move. And while I too would associate chops with Kobashi before Flair, most wouldn't. With all due respect to Kobashi (he evented my favourite move, he is like a God to me), it's not him the fans are giving props to when they yell "WOOOOO!" I believe Flair mentions in his autobiography that Wahoo McDaniel did have a big effect on his career, and he did learn how to chop properly from him.

"My poor beloved Derby County. Worry not, one day you shall win again."

Its been a long time, maybe a year? XD

Posted By: Guest#9501 (Guest) on September 10, 2008 at 02:30 AM

Not any more!! GO ON YOU RAMS!

It is kind of unfair to compare shawn michael's texas wrestling academy with either the hart dungeon or killer's school. for one, shawn michael's school hasn't been around very long at all, perhaps under a decade, and even then shawn michaels probably only taught 1 or 2 'classes' personally before rejoining the E, and does not train now, while the hart dungeon has been around for many years, perhaps 3-4 decades or more. a fair comparison would be to compare graduates from the same time period trained personally by the wrestler that founded the school/associated with that school's style. Jericho and Storm weren't actually trained by any of the Harts at all, as jericho says in his book, they were trained by someone else using the 'official hart training manual'. Michaels only personally trained probably danielson, kendrick, london, cade, and hernandez.
if you compare the graduates from the hart system, the killer system, and the texas wrestling academy from the time period of say 1998-2008, it can be said that shawn's boys are more notorious on the indy scene and have more accolades than graduates from kowalski's school or the hart dungeon from the same period. Danielson, Kendrick, London, Hernandez, Bentley, and Ruckus are known indy names and share quite a few well 'international' achievements among them. Even Milano Collection AT was trained by shawn michaels somehow.

Posted By: Anthler (Guest) on September 10, 2008 at 04:27 AM

Good points, however indy success and notoriety is not an indicator of success in the eyes of many. Jericho actually says in his book that Bruce Hart did do some training with them, but very little. However, as another reader pointed out, The Rock also passed through Stu's Dungeon, which adds yet more credibility. The comparison may not be a fair one, but I don't write the questions.

Regarding TV revenue vs PPV buyrates: A lot of discussion on this. I was being serious, and as several people pointed out the smaller number of cable channels combined with the higher ratings and visibility of the product enabled WWF/E to clean up in advertising revenue. The competition between Nitro and Raw was also the most important thing at the time, and as the companies only went head-to-head on Mondays (and later Thursdays), that's where they focused everything. There were no head-to-head pay-per-views.

Regarding Tazz/Mike Awesome: If, as The Original Guest says, Awesome was going to "Madusa" the ECW belt, why would he then agree to the match to drop the title? Using Tazz to prevent against Awesome taking liberties was a part of the story I left out, and makes a lot of sense for Paul. However, I think it was more for insurance than out of fear. Finally, I'm well aware that Vince, Eric and Paul didn't discuss the idea over blitzes and non-fat mocha lattes, but the situation required all three to agree, something that had never happened before and likely never will again. It would be like CM Punk beating Jimmy Rave for the RoH title on a RoH PPV.

Yeah, this new format works just fine. Thanks to all who suggested the improvements. Are we all ready for some questions? Then let's get DANGEROUS!

Answer Central

Conor starts us off with questions about WrestleMania XI:

Was watching Wrestlemania 11 recently and got me to ask you a few questions.

1. Now I was bout 8/9 and living in the UK when Wrestlemania 11 was out so i was wondering, how big really was the media coverage for LT/Bam Bam angle? Was it up there with Tyson at Wrestlemania 14 and Mayweather/Big Show angle this year? I don't think the buyrate showed that it was, but LT was a big star in the states (i would believe) so I was just curious on the media hype for the angle.

I don't know that LT qualifies as a "big star"...he's one of the greatest defensive players in the history of American football, but he's no movie star. He was big enough to stimulate a lot of mainstream press interest in Mania, more than Mayweather brought in this year. Everyone from Sports Illustrated to ESPN had coverage of the event.

2.Was there any plans for the WWE to use Steve McMichael after the PPV.I did notice he got a good pop compare to the rest of the all star team and they did use him in a small angle with the million dollar corporation just before Wrestlemania. I was thinking this cause in a few months time WCW brought him in for WCW Nitro,so he must of had something for WCW to take him from the WWE.

There was interest, but the deal never got done and McMichael ended up going to WCW and appearing as a commentator on the very first Nitro. He was given more of a role prior to Mania because he was interested in wrestling, basically. When Vince thought better of it, WCW pounced.

3.What is Mongo McMicheals at these days and what happen to him in WCW, he seems to disappear when the 4 horsemen reunited in 1998.

Mongo is currently coaching a small indoor American football team called the Chicago Slaughter in the CIFL. He left WCW in early 1999, coincidentally (or not...) around the time that his divorce from Debra went through. Debra would, of course, go on to become the wife/punching bag (allegedly) of Stone Cold Steve Austin, which led to Mongo doing an interview with that bastion of journalistic integrity, the National Enquirer. He was mostly invisible from mid-1998 (when Flair disbanded the Horsemen) until he left the company.

4.Lastly, while in this theme of sports personalities in wrestling, now i read a rumour ages ago that when Tyson was involved in the WWE for Wrestlemania 14, Eric Bischoff was trying to get Oscar de la Hoya in for an angle, and actually said on TV that Oscar was going appear in WCW but it fell flat when Easy E could not afford him.

That was definitely the rumour, though I cannot find any information that supports Bischoff mentioning it on air. He did some dumb things, but he wouldn't have said he signed someone when he hadn't. Right? BWAHAHAHAHAHA. If anyone has any concrete info on this I am sure they will share it. A YouTube would be perfect.

Derek wants some info on wrestling schools.

What (in your opinion) is the best wrestling school/camp to attend that is currently in operation? It really sucks that Stu Hart's Dungeon is gone. Or, not in operation, since the actual dungeon is still there.

To be honest, Derek, I don't really have an opinion on wrestling schools. I met Lance Storm at the ROH show in Toronto (great guy) and he put over Blood, Sweat and Ears as being top notch and trustworthy to boot. The second is possibly more important than the first nowadays since there are a LOT of schools out there that are scams. Of course the Storm Wrestling Academy in Calgary….Alberta Canada is a good one, as is Booker T's school in Houston.

Nick is a converted soul who has a very good question:

I was critical of you @ first but your doin good man.
my question
During the monday night wars, when WCW was gettin its ass kicked why wouldn't they just move to tuesday night, that way both brands would be watched and we wouldn't have the clusterfuck of WWE we have now, I only ask cause Turner owned his own network, wouldn't it make sense?

It has to do with viewers per night. Monday is a traditionally strong viewing night, while Tuesday is not. Moving to Tuesday might have got viewers to watch both shows, but in the long run would have hurt business with over-saturation (Sunday PPV, Monday Raw, Tuesday Nitro, Thursday Thunder and SmackDown). TNT also ran NBA games on Tuesdays, which would have been a bigger ratings draw than Nitro even at its peak. There's also an element of being seen as "running away from the fight". I doubt very much that even a move to another night would have saved WCW, it was eating away at itself from the inside and the execs wanted wrestling off the network.
 
A-Ron is curious about Hacksaw, tough guy!

Hello, Chris! Fantastic column you've got. Excluding count-outs and DQ finishes, when was the last time Hacksaw won a match? I really can't recall the last time he scored a pinfall or submission in a match.
 
Duggan's last win in WWE was in a pre-Raw dark match against Matt Striker on July 7 this year. His last broadcast win was on the May 18 edition of Heat, where he beat Conrad Kennedy III. To find his last televised win, you'd have to go all the way back to November 26, 2007 and a tag win with Super Crazy and CodyCore, defeating Lance Cade, Trevor Murdoch and the Highlanders. His last SINGLES win was waaaaaaaay back on September 12 2007 in a flag match against Daivari.

Sarge wants to know about kayfabe when meeting wrestlers:

A friend of mine saw Big Show at an airport, and yelled out "Hey Paul!" before going to talk to him. Show was really ignorant to him and would barely talk to him, but when another guy came up and called him Big Show, he was all nice and signed autographs. Then he looked at my friend and was like "Don't be a smark if you want to get shit". I thought this was pretty shitty of Show, because we pay to see him. Are there any other guys you know who act like this?

Actually, yes. CM Punk will give you a good dressing down if you call him Phil. Even the other wrestlers call Undertaker "Taker", and calling him Mark is likely to get you ignored at best. In a way I can understand where they're coming from: calling a wrestler by his real name can come off like you're trying to show how much you know about the business. A lot of wrestlers hate the smark fans, they are perceived as damaging to the business, so what is meant as a way to treat the wrestlers as real people and not celebrities that you stare at can be taken as something else. Fortunately it comes up less and less these days, as more and more wrestlers use their real names.

Asim has a tremendous question that really made me think:

Great Column, I am always impressed by the column not only because its well written but also the fact that you seem to answer some pretty out there questions. Anyways, talking about out there question... I seem to have one :)

I noticed something the other day..... Since the wrestlemania win over Flair, HBK has had (to my recollection) to date only one win and that too by his own admission via cheating against Batista. Not only that but the losses have all been major.... I mean getting the S*^% kicked out of him match after match and being totally dominated but he is still the top face and his credibility is not affected. I mean if he fights CM Punk or Mark Henry or even HHH today he will be considered a favourite to win... My question is this... Has there been any other top level wrestler so over and so confident in his status that even such a long and brutal losing streak has no effect on his credibility and was willing to go on a long losing streak knowing he will not be hurt by it? I am not considering legends like Flair or Foley because, lets face it, they are expected to lose and its a great surprise if they win a high profile match. The only person that comes to mind is Undertaker (but I don't think even he has a half year of continuous losses to his name).

To sum it up....What I mean is.....I know there are wrestlers who have transcended Titles but has there been a wrestler so over that he transcends winning? Like I said.....My question was really out there..... :)

It's not so much "out there" as it is thought-provoking. There are several wrestlers who you could say "Oh he can afford the loss there, he's over enough to absorb it", but very few who can take so many high-profile losses and remain over. To transcend winning, as you said. Looking at the Shawn Michaels situation he mentioned, he didn't have a lot of matches in that time period and he won the last match in the Jericho feud, but that was after your question. Generally the people suffering these streaks do tend to be legends on their way out, so I would have to say no, there hasn't been a wrestler who wasn't a legend and who stayed over despite losing. Unless you want to consider Vince McMahon a wrestler, that is. The Rock lost a lot of matches that, really, he had no right losing, but he was in rarefied air at the time and could have jobbed to Ralphus without losing a step. The only name that comes close right now is Batista, who has really only beaten Shawn Michaels in high-profile matches recently. He doesn't really fit the criteria since he's won a few others, but in title shots he chokes more than George Bush with a bag of Rold Gold. If you loosen your definition of "over", then people like Funaki and Val Venis would qualify. Despite horrible win-loss records, these guys still pop the crowd when they come out, albeit to a far lesser extent.

A couple of minor quibbles: Shawn didn't cheat to beat Batista. He was perfectly within the rules to fake an injury, it's just not terribly sporting. Also, I wouldn't class Undertaker in this group simply because, although he doesn't NEED to win, he does. A lot.

Edward seems to have been watching some old school RoH:

Hey man, great column. I have a few questions:

I was watching the Paul London vs AJ Styles match and I noticed both of them were wearing black headbands. Were they wearing them for a reason?

To keep the sweat out of their eyes.

I kid. At one point, London and Styles were supposed to form a tag team. London got injured and Amazing Red took his place in the team, which would win the titles. On London's return he was pissed at AJ and they feuded based around being a tag team that never was, hence the headbands.

Whatever happened to Xavier after his ROH title reign? It seemed like he just vanished after that reign and never amounted to anything after being touted as a future star.

Oh he's still around. He made a couple of surprise appearances for RoH (mostly at Anniversary shows but also at Unscripted 2) and still wrestles for various northeast independents. As much as people like to crap on him, he did (and still does) have a lot of talent and could have gone places, but his title win was booked as a fluke in ROH and that really hurt him. He did have a couple of quick looks in WWE but they never amounted to anything.

When did CM Punk start adopting KENTA's look dumping the baggy shorts for trunks? I liked the shorts better.

I think we all did. Punk adopted the KENTA look right around the time he debuted on ECW TV. He didn't start using the GTS until a while after that, which was another strange decision.

Adam wants to know about foreigners. I've been waiting for a question like this to walk into my life. Yeah waiting, for someone new…sorry.

I have a question, has there ever been a foreign face wrestler. Not Japan, Canada or England. I'm mainly think of middle east, German or Russian. Couldn't think of any. Thanks.

Nikolai Volkoff had a brief face run after the split of the Bolsheviks and was on the face team at Survivor Series 1989. Baron von Raschke had a face run as a German. There was also a VERY brief Iron Shiek face run, and I guess you could class Sabu as Middle Eastern.

Linden has three varied questions for me:

i have three questions for you

1.after watching alot of cactus jack vs sting matches from wcw i was just wondering why foly never got a big push ive read his book numerous times but it never says anything about it there

A couple of reasons. The bookers in WCW never got behind him and thought he had the wrong look to be pushed. He also was (and still is) very limited in terms of actual wrestling ability. WCW saw Foley as a midcard act he could make others look good, but would never amount to anything on his own. Oops.

2.i feel like a idiot asking this but what was the infamous blade job by Eddy Guerrero blade job at judgment day 04 i have never seen this ppv and would like to know

It was a perfect example of a "gusher" – he caught a blood vessel and the blood went EVERYWHERE. JBL hit him with a chair shot, Eddie went for the blade and either slipped or rushed it. Within about 20 seconds his chest and face looked like Lestat had been at him. By the end of the match he was incoherent and out on his feet. Here's a video:


3. I know this question will piss off a lot of fanboys but why does WWE not cut its losses with big Dave Batista I mean he's slow, sluggish and is a famous No-seller

A lot of people would disagree with this. Batista is solidly over, he moves well for his size, has had some very good matches with big and small men alike and is one of a few top guys left. It wouldn't be a case of cutting their losses at this point. Sure he's not the best seller, and he won't win any prizes for speed in the ring, but he's 300 pounds plus of muscles and anger, and he plays that part very well. I can guarantee you that TNA would love to have him, too.

Erick has two questions, one of which was partially answered in the comments, but I'll answer it nonetheless.

Hey Lansdell love your column. Anyway i want to know why WWE limits superstars movesets? I'm asking because i remember seeing Evan Bourne vs. The Miz and Evan Bourne was so grounded and hardly did any high flying moves.

Two major reasons and one minor one. The first is a health issue: after Droz got paralysed, Austin got his neck broken and several other guys went down with injuries sustained in the ring, Vince became very safety-conscious. Several moves got banned, including the Death Valley Driver, the Tombstone and variants, and the shooting star press. Undertaker and Kane were allowed to use the Tombstone on a limited basis because they had shown that they could do it safely every time. Evan Bourne had to do the SSP several times for Vince before being allowed to use it on TV. The second reason is to protect the special feel of a big move. Back in the Attitude era, we were getting gimmick matches and "Holy Shit!" moments on a weekly basis, and it got to the point where they were expected. This was a very destructive path, since there's only so much you can do to top each move. The minor reason is that WWE have been slowly moving towards a shoot-like feel to their matches, and for someone to suddenly bust out a corkscrew senton or a 450 splash would detract from that. I wrote a whole column on this issue, which you can see here.

Now my second question. Do you think Cena vs The Rock and Hogan vs Austin is likely.

Definitely not, on both counts. Austin has ruled out fighting Hogan ever, and Dwayne Johnson is done with wrestling. We might get Cena-Austin, but I think that's as close as we're ever likely to get.

A set of questions from Tyg,:

I've been a reader of 411wrestling for a few years now and Ask 411 has been one of my favorite articles. As someone who's been watching pro wrestling for over 20 years, it's fun to see all the things I didn't know.

This is my ninth Ask411, I've also been watching for around 20 years, and it's fun to research all the things *I* don't know. What, you didn't think I did this from memory, did you?

I have a couple questions of my own and I know some readers will give their 2 cents as well, I look forward to seeing the answers.

1. The phrases "all-time great" and "one of the best" get tossed around a lot, and while some of the wrestlers that get these labels truly are that good, a lot of people consider them over rated. Some people may say Hulk Hogan and cite a lack of wrestling ability. Now I'll admit he's no Kurt Angle but he has more skill than he's given credit for.

Everyone has their own choices and personal opinions, but what wrestlers are most widely considered the most over rated?

"Widely considered over-rated" would tend to suggest that they weren't rated to start with, but I get your intention. I'm going to exclude recent wrestlers since you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone these days that isn't considered over-rated by some section of the IWC. It's cool to hate the popular ones.

Diamond Dallas Page comes to mind immediately as someone who got a long way on charisma alone. The Observer Awards give out a Most Overrated award each year, which has been dominated by Hulk Hogan. Kevin Nash, Dusty Rhodes, Ultimate Warrior and Triple H are also on the list, although I'd disagree with HHH. For the most part people tend to consider a wrestler overrated if they are good on the mic but lousy in the ring.

2. What's the real deal with Fabulous Moolah's title reign? I've seen various sources that ackowledge her holding the title for 20+ years, but others who say during those years she lost the title a number of times. So what's fact and what's fiction?

According to WWE.com's title history, she held it for 2 months shy of 28 years. That is highly exaggerated and requires some in-depth explanation. Moolah (as Slave Girl Moolah) won a Battle Royal for the Women's title in 1956, and lost the title to Betty Boucher 9 years and 364 days later. She would win it back a week later, then drop it again in Japan on March 10, 1968. She would regain it AGAIN 3 weeks later, and would hold it from April 2 1968 until 1976, losing to Sue Green. She would regain again after a few days, then drop to Evelyn Stevens in 1978, regaining again after, you guessed it...a few days. She would then hold the title until 1984 when she dropped to Wendi Richter. In total she held the belt for almost 30 years, but contrary to popular belief it was broken up several times. Not that numerous 6 and 8-year reigns aren't impressive, mind you. Anyway, the story behind all of this is that Moolah at one point legally owned the title belt and was booking her own matches, leading to the NWA refusing to acknowledge her as the champion. Vince McMahon bought the rights to the belt from her in 1983.

3. Will the WWE ever release a Wargames DVD? It was a really innovative kind of match that's inspired other types of cage matches over the years. The Elimination Chamber and Lethal Lockdown immediately come to mind.
 
Thanks, and keep up the good work.

It's been rumoured for a while, as has bringing the match back. Until news broke this weekend that the Starrcade DVD set was being cancelled, I would have said that it would happen. Now, I doubt it. Vince seems to be back on his anti-WCW horse and is unwilling to put anything out that might make him look bad or even second best. Wargames was an innovative concept, but it wasn't Vince's innovative concept. It's a real shame because there are some great matches we're missing out on because of this.
 

In my opinion…

This week's questions come from cagedrage187:

Everyone is always talking about ratings and how they're down. why do u think they are down and how do u think it can be fixed?

Ratings are down for a lot of reasons. There's more choice in entertainment these days: more channels, more prevalent video game consoles, more households with internet. People also are DVR-ing the shows to avoid commercials, or are watching them on the internet through streams. There's also a quality of product side to it: wrestling today has no Austin vs McMahon, no nWo vs WCW, no Rock. The guys with talent that WWE does have in FCW are rushed up to the big leagues before they're ready, either to cover injuries or for fear that they will quit, get injured or be lured by TNA. TNA signs people that are either past their relevance or not relevant yet, and until recently had not been doing anything to promote their younger guys. Without the vibrant personalities that people actually care about, you won't be able to pull in the casual viewer. Obviously you can't fix people's viewing habits, but if you take your time in developing talent and storylines, and listen to your market instead of making knee-jerk decisions based on what one person thinks, the viewers will come back.

After WWE and TNA what are the biggest companies?

I presume you mean in North America. Ring of Honor is clear and away the number 3 promotion, and may be a threat to TNA in the near future if they are able to continue expanding. After that it gets tricky, as CHIKARA and PWG are relatively similar, and behind them CZW, SHIMMER and IWA-MS are also close. I'd give the nod to CHIKARA over PWG, though not by much, followed by IWA-MS, SHIMMER and CZW. In all honesty, once you get past RoH there might be a difference of 50-60 fans on average attendance between the positions.

What's the worst match you ever saw?

Oh great question! I'll leave off DUD matches and squashes otherwise the list would be very, VERY long. As it is, I'm having trouble narrowing it down. Tomko vs Stevie Richards is up there, as is THAT Jackie Gayda match, Undertaker-Giant Gonzalez (either one), Shelton Benjamin vs Maven and The Kennel from Hell. For all time worst that I've personally seen though, I have to go with a 3-way tie between Hogan-Yokozuna from Wrestlemania IX, Big Show-Akebono and this forgotten gem:



And on that porky note, I leave you for the week. Keep firing in the questions!

Lansdellicious - Out