Ask 411 Wrestling 09.24.08: Controversy Edition
Posted by Chris Lansdell on 09.24.2008
What's Flair's issue with Bret? Will Owen be in the Hall of Fame? Why did Savage-Steamboat not happen in the Mania IV tournament? Oldest active wrestler? What was the deal with the crybaby match? And, best of all: what do 411 writers think of Boss Csonka?
Greetings, humanity! Welcome back to Ask 411 Wrestling with me, Chris Lansdell. I'm writing this through a pounding headache behind my left eye, so forgive me if the opening section is shorter than normal. Migraines suck. Some great questions this week, so after telling you that this week's musical accompaniment is Touched by VAST, let's get straight to the...
BANNER!
Banner compliments of Benjamin Colon. See more of his work at soulexodus.com.
Cleaning Up
Regarding the Worst Match:
Apparently many of you didn't see that the Worst Match question was specifically about the worst match I had ever seen. I was lucky enough to have not seen a lot of the suggestions, but in hindsight I agree that Quake-Yoko was a squash and possibly not that horrible. THAT Jackie Gayda match to which I referred was Bradshaw and Trish Stratus vs Jackie Gayda and Chris Nowinski. It was terrible. Trump-Rosie, Sabu-Funk in XPW and the tag match from the Legends of Wrestling show have all escaped my viewing. Taker-Taker was not as bad as Kane-Kane, so I couldn't include it. Booker-Buff was bad, but not in the same league as Tomko-Richards et al.
Regarding foreign faces:
The questioner mentioned German, Russian or Middle Eastern, so I left out a lot of the suggestions. Alex Wright was an obvious omission though. His theme music is one of my ringtones.
Regarding the obscure reference:
Looks like 4 people got it, kudos to you all. It was from the Sword of Truth series by Robert Goodkind, a darn good read if you like fantasy novels.
To the person who wants fewer opinion questions...I cut them down to one or two a week, and put them in their own section. They stimulate a lot of discussion without flames and several people like them, so they will be staying.
OK, the screen is starting to turn funny colours, so we'll move on. Let's get DANGEROUS~!
Question Time!
Eddie Mac wants to know about what would have been a heck of a dream match:
I know that Hogan vs. Flair was probably the intended main event of Wrestlemania VIII. I knew Vince blew an opportunity to make it happen, but I'm sure he's not the only one to blame. So what made Hogan vs. Flair not happen at WM VIII?
It wasn't so much Vince as the relationship between Vince and Hogan turning sour by this point. Hogan also wanted to become a full-time actor (we all know how THAT one turned out) and was looking for a long break from wrestling. Vince not only wanted Hogan-Flair, but wanted Hogan to win, so obviously plans had to be changed.
Phillis drops by with 4 questions. Good ones, too.
1. Who's the oldest active wrestler out there?
I don't think Jim's still active, actually. Besides, he's not that old. The answer is relatively easy: Gypsy Joe, who wrestles for a small independent in Tennessee, is 74 and still wrestles. Slowly. In terms of mainstream names...Terry Funk is on one of his retirements right now, so the title could well go to Finlay. Unless you consider Abdullah the Butcher's recent showings in Canadian feds as "still active".
2) I vividly remember Razor Ramon and The 123 Kid having a Crybaby match. What was the build-up that led to that kind of match?
This was at In Your House 6: Caged Rage. The Kid had been jobbing to everyone until finally getting a surprise pinfall victory over a then-heel Razor Ramon, giving him the name "1-2-3 Kid". Their friendship evolved as DiBiase, who was feuding with Razor at the time, lost to Kid. Eventually though, Kid turned on Razor, aligning himself with DiBiase and costing Razor the IC title against Golddust. This led to DiBiase and the Kid calling Razor a crybaby, and the rest is history. During the build for the match, Kid attacked Razor with a stroller. No, really.
3) What did Kurt Angles other medals represent? He sometimes used to wear more than one.
His 1996 Olympic gold was one of them. The 1995 World championship gold was another, and he mentioned it a few times. On the few occasions he wore a third medal, it was to represent his NCAA championship win.
4) Where did Jeff Jarret get his guitar gimmick from?
It's a throwback to WCW when Russo made fun of his (Jarrett's) WWF Double J gimmick, which had him playing a country singer. This gimmick also led to The Roadie, who would become the Road Dogg.
Justin F has a question about Shelton's ability as a ladies' man.
There was an episode of RAW in 2006 or 2007 where Shelton Benjamin was shown backstage with the Raw divas with his arm around them when the Mcmahons walked passed him on their way to the limo before DX pulled the axel. Did Shelton ever date or linked to a WWE Diva? Or is he ladies man backstage that you know of?
Hmmm. Nothing that was made public, and nothing I heard about. Most wrestlers prefer to keep their private lives private. If it was shown on camera, chances are it was just coincidental. This was after the Shelton's Mama angle too, so it couldn't be her. As far as a reputation for being a ladies' man, he doesn't have one.
Scott is back with a question about an old school gimmick:
Thanks for answering my last set of questions. I know, it's what you do, and it's greatly appreciated by the smark nation. Next question; going back to the old old school. I hope you can answer this or get the word out for an answer. Growing up watching WWF wrestling in the early 80's on Sunday mornings, I was more of a fan of gimmick wrestlers as a child. My personal favorite was short lived. I'm talking 3-5 matches I can remember. His name was Battle Cat and his finisher was a cats cradle, simply a huracanrana into a rollup. I thought this was the coolest thing ever as a kid, trying it out on friend and stuffed animals. Anyhow, do you know who this masked wrestler was? He was a high flyer and very small and agile. Wish I could give you more. Good luck.
It's questions like this that make me love this column. I mean, freakin' BATTLE CAT! What next, a Friar Ferguson question? Dude was better known as Brady Boone, and he died in 1998 after a car crash. He was from the wrestling hotbed of Robbinsdale, MN. After his brief WWF run, he refereed in WCW up until his death. Rob van Dam mentions him as an influence on both his career and his moveset.
411's own Ronny Sarnecky, of the Piledriver Report, stops by to get some HBK info.
I have a question for you. I am currently doing a series of articles on the History of Shawn Michaels in professional wrestling. My article that is coming up deals with the post-back injury Shawn. I remember when Shawn opened up his wrestling school, he also created a promotion called TWA. During one of the shows, I can't remember the year, maybe 2000. He did an angle where he wound up wrestling one match on April 4th, I believe. It was billed as 4.4.something (can't remember). It was a no holds barred match, so he didn't have to bump. Can you give me information regarding the match? The background, the opponent, the date?
Thanks for the help. Keep up the terrific work!
Anyone who hasn't been following Ronny's series on Shawn should definitely check it out. Top stuff. To answer your question, this was a bootcamp match with a guy going by the name of Venom. I wasn't able to find any info on who this Venom was, but it wasn't Vic Venom. Much as I would love to see that. It MAY have been Joey Abs, who worked under that name for a while, but I have my doubts. It was for control of TWA, Texas Wrestling Alliance, which was the promotion Shawn started to accompany his Texas Wrestling Academy. Shawn did color commentary and interview duty for the promotion, and antagonised this Venom fellow, who happened to be the TWA champion. You have the date right, it was 2000. Shawn won the match following a powerslam through a table and the superkick, not only winning control of TWA but also the TWA title, which he put up for grabs in a 4-way tournament. Hope that helps!
I thought long and hard before including this next question, and ran it by the boss first. It's not really wrestling-related, but it was sent to me and I don't like ignoring questions. Plus it's a hot-button issue. I've cleaned up the language, spelling and grammar immensely, but the gist of the question remains the same. The person did not give a name, but the email address was not exactly pleasant. Buckle up:
Csonka is the most hated writer anywhere on the internet, but I was wondering how the other writers feel about him? He hogs all the show reviews, writes about 20 columns a week and never puts anyone over. Do the other writers agree he's the Triple H of 411? Grow some [expletives deleted] man and tell us what you really feel.
Wow. OK. Isn't it cute when Randle makes up pseudonyms?
In all seriousness, I have no idea who you are, but you could not be further from the truth. Larry might not be everyone's cup of tea with his writing style, but nobody is. Fact remains that anything he writes gets huge hits and ALWAYS generates discussion, which is the point of the site after all. Only Dunn comes close to his popularity. As for the amount of writing he does, let's look at some facts. First, he gave up both the TNA Round Tables (to me) and the live Raw report (to Wilcox) in the last few months. There was one other column he gave up, the Smackdown review I believe, but he had to take it back when the writer quit suddenly and nobody was willing to step in. He does the Impact review (which nobody else really wants), about 75% of the PPV live recaps (which are VERY hard to do and require a huge dedication to pay for them each month), his news column and most of the Rs. Sure Wrestler of the Week is posted under his name, but he copy-pastes 95% of it. I talk to Larry frequently and I can assure you that he would give up a lot of the work he does if he could find a reliable replacement. I'm not going to go into details of the staff and the workings of the site, but suffice it to say that if Larry doesn't do it, there's a big chance it won't get done. He gives writers a chance to shine wherever they want, and I can honestly tell you that nobody has complained anywhere that I've seen it about the volume of writing he does. Any one of us is free to write a column at any time, on any topic. Want to review old XPW tapes? Go for it. Want to write an opinion piece on the size of each female wrestler's booty? Rock on. In fact, we're encouraged to do this, for the times when an emergency cover is needed.
Any news site lives or dies by the popularity of its content. We are very lucky to have a group of writers who are all capable of banging out tremendous articles, and Larry is most definitely at or near the top of that list. I might be a touch biased due to the opportunities I've been given (and really, I write just as many columns as he does…), but Csonka-hate is getting as old and clichéd as Cena hate. Nearly all of us respect the work that Larry does for the site and genuinely like him as a person, and that includes me.
But not Randle.
In the interest of answering every question that reaches my Inbox, I feel that I have to answer this one, from kilian lancer:
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No, thank you. Maybe I should forward this one to Michael O. All those drugs have probably affected his reproductive capacities.
halo5484 has a question about the Mania X ladder match:
In the ladder match at wrestlemania 10, why were there 2 belts above the ring? It was only for the IC title, right?
In a way, it was for one title but two belts. Michaels had taken some time off (reports say either due to an injury or due to not wanting to drop the belt), so figurehead WWF president Jack Tunney announced that he was stripping Michaels of the IC belt as he had not defended it within the convenient 30-day period. Razor Ramon won the title after winning a battle royale, last eliminating The Model, Rick Martel. Michaels refused to acknowledge the title change, however, as he insisted that he was the true Intercontinental Champion. He would show up with the belt that he never lost, on a white strap, and proclaimed it the real IC title. To gain a measure of revenge against Ramon for taking the belt, Michaels attacked him and helped Irwin R. Schyster (otherwise known as I…R…S) to steal Ramon's gold chains as payment for back taxes. Yes, really. The match was made to determine the undisputed Intercontinental champion, with both belts suspended above the ring.
ReDMaMBa wants to know about stingy people. Like me.
What wrestler spends the least on the road? Everyone knows Flair spends the most.
He certainly used to. It's also widely accepted that Mick Foley is the cheapest of the cheap. While many of his colleagues were lounging in expensive hotels, he'd be figuring out if the gas money from the Motel 6 in the next town was worth the savings over the Super 8 in the town he was in. He's been known to stay up all night if he had, say, Raw until 11pm (meaning it would be close to 1 before he made it back to the hotel) and a flight at 6. Sleep on the plane. He talks about it quite extensively in the 2 books of his that I've read.
Barry is a fan of British wrestlers:
What's the story with Dynamite?
The story? Well he's confined to a wheelchair now, the result of years of ignoring and masking the pain he was in with more and more painkillers and steroids. He is now a bitter, hate-filled man who alternates between blaming himself for his condition, and blaming everyone but himself. Not sure what else you mean by "the story", but he has made a couple of appearances from some British feds over the past few years.
What British wrestlers are around these days, outside of WWE and TNA?
The most prominent would be Nigel McGuinness, current RoH champion. Doug Williams is still around, he did recently show up in TNA for the X Cup but is not under contract to them. PAC makes regular appearances for US Indies and bigger Japanese feds, and I believe Jody Fleisch is still active for the time being. If you consider developmental being outside the WWE, then Drew MacIntyre is down there.
The Way I C It…
Minor change to the name of the section as a throwback for long-time Lansdell fans (Both of you – Editor). Two different people this week, since there were only 2 opinion questions between them.
DarkNightwolf101 wants Hart info:
1. With the 2009 Hall of Fame being centered on Stone Cold, when do you think that they will induct Owen Hart into the WWE HOF?
No time soon, unfortunately. Owen's widow (Martha) rates Vince McMahon somewhere between Satan and Osama bin Laden and has repeatedly said that she wants nothing to do with WWE. I think Vince would like to do it, and probably would have done it the same year that Bret went in. As he's shown with Bruno Sammartino though, he won't induct someone against their will, or in this case the will of their family. Were it down to Bret we'd probably see it, along with Davey Boy.
2. What was the beef Ric Flair had with Bret Hart?
As with most people who dislike Bret, Flair was on Shawn's side in the Screwjob. He believed that Hart was wrong to insist on not jobbing anywhere in Canada, which is probably a fair argument. Had Survivor Series been in Calgary, it would have been different. Flair also has an issue with Bret calling himself the best there is, was and ever will be. In Flair's book he acknowledges that Bret was very good in the ring, but could not cut a promo to save his life. Again, fair comment. As with most people who dislike Flair, Bret took umbrage with Flair's comments in his book, and in Bret's book he said that Flair seemed over-rated as a worker on the occasions they fought.
Our next opinion-seeker is Red, who wants to know about the WMIV tournament.
Question about the WM IV Tournament: Why do you think Vince balked at a Savage/Steamboat rematch in the 2nd Round? It was set up perfectly, but Valentine went over The Dragon. Was kayfabe still strong enough that since Savage by then was a face, they couldn't go face vs. face? Obviously they didn't want Savage to wrestle a 5 star, 20 minute match and then have two more afterwards, but it certainly would have added a lot to the victory for Savage. Plus, with Steamboat on his way out of WWF, they could have had him play the heel/rulebreaker for those 10 minutes.
There were a couple of reasons. Face vs face was still very rare at the time, they didn't want a second-round match to overshadow Hogan-André, and they didn't want to lessen the impact of the previous year's match by only giving this one 15 minutes. The biggest reason is likely the one that was hinted at in Flair's book: Steamboat HATED working with Savage. Ricky subscribes to the old school of match planning: call it on the fly. Savage is anal about practising and rehearsing every second of his matches, and it drove Steamboat nuts.
OK boys and girls, that'll do it from me. Gamers should check out my debut in the Video Games section with a Smackdown vs Raw 2009 preview. Game looks pretty darn good. Stay cool, rock hard.
Bob Bradley was Battle KAT #2 (after Brady Boone left) Yes, there was more than one, much like Doink. In case you don't know, Bradley was one of the few jobbers allowed to get offense in, and in every match he was in he'd bust out a swank handstand/backflip elbow.
Posted By: MissyNEVERWearsSocksWithShoes! (Guest) on September 23, 2008 at 11:42 PM
The reason that there were two Intercontinental titles prior to Wrestlemania X had nothing to do with Shawn not wanting to job or injury. Michaels got suspended for failing a drug test and was actually on his way out of the company. Jerry Lawler got in legal problems of his own, which led to McMahon bringing Michaels back to captain Lawler's Survivor Series team. When Michaels came back he retained possession of the title he never lost. This naturally led to a feud between Michaels and Ramon.
Posted By: Jason (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 12:13 AM
"Let's get DANGEROUS~!"
DARKWING DUCK!
Excellent, Mister Lansdellicious, excellent.
Posted By: Tammy (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 12:13 AM
To the guy asking about Dynamite Kid's story, he has an autobiography (ghost written by Fin Martin, the guy who runs the UK based PowerSlam magazine). If I remember right it's called Pure Dynamite. I doubt its still being printed but I bet you could find it on eBay or something.
Posted By: White Mike (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 12:21 AM
i am shocked that anyone could even think that Csonka is any worse than that bloated, talentless and unfunny hack scott keith.
Posted By: Darth Mortis (Registered) on September 24, 2008 at 12:23 AM
For more on the Dynamite Kid get a copy of his autobiography "Pure Dynamite - The Price You Pay for Wrestling Stardom"
Posted By: rudey (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 12:36 AM
Bret Hart can't cut a promo? Maybe earlier in his career, and no, not with the bombast of Flair, but you watch any promo from 1997 and try to tell me that Bret Hart wasn't the best in the business that year -- and yes, that includes Steve Austin. Bret opened the year with "Frustrated isn't the goddamn word for it!" and ended with an awesome series of promos against a doped-up HBK.
Bret Hart went to waste shortly after his arrival in WCW, but people really need to watch his 1997 promo work before they say he was bad on the stick.
Posted By: DG (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 12:38 AM
also on the Savage/Steamboat rematch ,Steamboat was on the outs with vince so Vince just desided to job him out
Posted By: Guest#0329 (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 12:54 AM
I know everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but Chris saying that Flair's comment on Bret could not do a promo correctly, thats bull, just like this writer name Chris, dude, Bret Hart's promo were realistic just Like Austin's, Flair common this guy is overrated, just like His daddy HHH. Flair is a suck up bastard who cant even defend his daughter properly, he got his butt kick by a punk kid. How come his suppose promos did not help him defend himself properly. Dude, people defend HBK that he was correct to screw Bret, but that bastard did not want to reciprocate the favor on any occasion to lose to Bret, then why should Bret do the same. I bet if bret was facing the Undertaker or Austin, he would've lost the belt to them on Canada or anywhere else. HHH and Flair suck, the real greats are Bret, Owen, Bulldog, Anvil, Pillman, Warrior, Sting,Hogan, Angle, Randy Savage, Undertaker, Austin, the Rock, to a lesser extend HBK, despite being a hypocrite,but his good
Posted By: REBEL (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 01:00 AM
Just one small correction on the Ladder match. When Razor Ramon won the IC Title, he didn't do so in the battle royal. He was one of the last two men in the battle royal, along with Rick Martel. The final two men were to compete in a match the following week for the IC Title, which Razor won, pinning Martel to get the title.
Posted By: Snabbit (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 01:16 AM
Awesome column as usual. The only thing I noticed was that you said Razor Ramon won the IC Title by last eliminating Rick Martel in a battle royal. However, Razor and Martel were actually the last two remaining in the battle royal and then had to have a one-on-one match for the IC Title, in which Razor pinned Martel. That's just nitpicking though. lol
Posted By: ND (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 01:23 AM
Bret Hart: The most overrated there is, the most overrated there was, and the most overrated there ever will be.
There's no doubt he played a significant role in wrestling over the years. I'd dare say that he is an all-time great, but when you really think of the best of the best, Bret is an also-ran. Perhaps if his career didn't come to a premature end, we may have seen a better ending to it all. Nonetheless, he's not remotely close to the top of my list of the greatest ever. That's just my opinion, but I'm entitled to it, because this is the internet. WHEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!
Posted By: 2 Stoned Corpio (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 01:45 AM
We knew the worst match question was directed at you, but figured that if opinion questions are included, its only fair to have dissenting views in the comments.
Also, re: the WMX ladder match, in his book, Shawn claims that Vince suspended him for failing a steroid test. He then denies having taken steroids, and claims that one of the boys must have slipped it in his drink or something. A denial from Michaels is pretty worthless normally, but in this case he does seem to have a point. Shawn had a pretty big gut on him then; he didn't exactly have a roid physique. Not mentioning this as a correction (cause who the hell knows the real story other than Vince and Shawn) but as another possible explanation.
I will correct you about the white belt though. Michaels had the white IC belt in the first half of 93, but changed to a black one around Summerslam, I believe. When he came back from suspension, he had the black belt with him, and didn't use a white one again until he beat Jarrett for it about a year and a half later. Here's the video of Michaels returning at Survivor Series with the black IC belt. Michaels comes out at about 5 minutes, after Ray Coombs talks for what seems like hours.
Posted By: Hawkeye (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 02:02 AM
"i am shocked that anyone could even think that Csonka is any worse than that bloated, talentless and unfunny hack scott keith""
I'm confused why someone's weight would matter to their writing.
Posted By: scott (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 02:34 AM
Owen '09
'nuff said
Posted By: Ray A (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 02:49 AM
Larrold is one of the pinnacles of writers on any site regarding the entertainment venue of choice here. As someone who watched him mature as a writer, Mister Csonka has not only reached one of his goals, he surpassed even his wildest imagination. I am glad there are warriors like Csonka who are dedicate to the site and their audience.
Thanks for backing him up Chris. I am sure it was easy to do.
Posted By: thegunisgood (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 02:53 AM
I remember hearing that Venom was Paul Diamond.
Posted By: Poop Stewart (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 03:50 AM
Sorry The Montreal Screwjob in my mind was not a screwjob. One time i might of been the biggest hbk fan in the world but that doesn't take away from Bret Hart doing good business. I never really thought much of bret hart but he had fans and was over, however he was wwf champ and was leaving for the competition wcw. he didn't want to job in canada cause he was the hero for canada (sorry lol hbk has a big ego?)so wouldn't do it, so michael's and McMahon with earl made the ending how it happened and vince and shawn were seen as terrible people, give me a break. Bret Hart screwed Bret Hart and i believe it
Posted By: DM Punk (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 04:18 AM
"bet if bret was facing the Undertaker or Austin, he would've lost the belt to them on Canada or anywhere else."
According to Mick Foley in his first book, if Bret had his way, he would have either dropped the belt to him (Mankind) or Austin. Just clarifying.
Posted By: Jase (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 05:00 AM
Dave Taylor is older than Fit Finlay, and there are a shitload of Britons in developmental, and I was led to believe Doug Williams has a contract. It was announced after all.
Posted By: ButchReedMark (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 05:36 AM
To add to what Jason said about the IC title being vacated, Shawn was adamant that the test was wrong and that he wasn't on steroids and therefore refused to give back the belt during his suspension.
Posted By: Quinny (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 05:52 AM
At least Bret Hart can talk, and not babble incoherently like a senile pervert Ric, oh wait, Ric is a senile pervert who gets beaten up by frat boys, touches up teenagers, and breaks Kids cameras..
Posted By: Propagandhi (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 07:35 AM
"Bret Hart can't cut a promo? Maybe earlier in his career, and no, not with the bombast of Flair, but you watch any promo from 1997 and try to tell me that Bret Hart wasn't the best in the business that year -- and yes, that includes Steve Austin. Bret opened the year with "Frustrated isn't the goddamn word for it!" and ended with an awesome series of promos against a doped-up HBK.
Bret Hart went to waste shortly after his arrival in WCW, but people really need to watch his 1997 promo work before they say he was bad on the stick.
Posted By: DG (Guest)"
Not just 1997, man, saying Hart couldn't cut a promo is like what Hogan said, that "Shawn Michaels was right to shoot pin Bret 1-2-3 in Montreal, dude", ie you apparently know squat of what you're talking about. And no, his promos weren't all the same and about the same thing like all of Flair's, for example.
Posted By: Guest#1228 (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 07:45 AM
Jeff Jarrett was smashing people with a guitar in the WWF back in 1998. He had "Don't Piss Me Off" on the back of it and was more than a little eager to use it.
I recall at one PPV he managed to legit damage X-Pac's eye with a stray fragment after hitting him.
Posted By: Scott Rutherford (Registered) on September 24, 2008 at 07:52 AM
Wrestlemania IV: The idea was to make Savage's eventual win appear to come against insurmountable odds while not actually making them insurmountable. A stiff looking match with heel Greg Valentine (with plenty of rest holds) was far more effective in terms of conditioning than a 15 minute high paced match with Steamboat.
Posted By: Bored Weegie (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 08:07 AM
heehee...REBEL. at least your spelling was correct, I will hand you that.
Posted By: luthor (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 08:31 AM
As for Dynamite, he does have a book, and it is called Pure Dynamite. It's one of the best wrestling books ive read (top 3) and ive read quite a few. He is boken down, and h is biter, and he does take some liberties with the truth now and again, but its an unflinching, mainly honest account of his time in wrestling, including the boom peiod of the 80s. Definitely worth getting if you can find it on ebay.
One story is when WWF and WCW were in the same town, and all the wrestlers stayed a the same hotel. Savae asked Dynamite if he'd watch his back in the bar (Savage was champion at the time) because he thought one of the WCW guys might take a shot at him. Dynamite was legitimately one of the toughest guys in WWF, along with Haku so he ended up watching Savage's back.
Great book. No doubt that Dynamite is one of the toip 3 greatest of all time, ahead of Flair by a mile as far as actual wrestling goes. If he had been a bit cleverer he could've been the champ in the early 90s but he'd made bad choices by then, and couldnt compete any longer. I always say the Hall of Fame is nothing without Dynamite. IMHO he's the best ever, and he should be in it.
Posted By: Pure Dynamite (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 08:34 AM
Jeff Jarrett was using his guitar as a weapon long before Vince Russo was on the WCW payroll -- and, for that matter, before Jarrett himself was on the WCW payroll. He was using it at least occasionally during his first WWF run, the most memorable example probably being a spot at the 1996 Royal Rumble when he came off the top rope to blast Ahmed Johnson with the guitar.
Jarrett never used the guitar during his first WCW run, which started in 1996, but he began using it again when he revived the country singer gimmick in the WWF in 1998. After he dropped that gimmick, right around the time he lost his long hair in a match with X-Pac, he kept using the guitar as a weapon right up until his second and final WWF departure in 1999. As Russo was on the WWF booking team during Jarrett's second WWF run, he may have had something to do with the gimmick at that time, but Jarrett added nothing to it in WCW.
Posted By: G. Jonah Jameson (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 08:51 AM
Michaels had taken some time off (reports say either due to an injury or due to not wanting to drop the belt), so figurehead WWF president Jack Tunney announced that he was stripping Michaels of the IC belt as he had not defended it within the convenient 30-day period.
Uh ... wasnt it due to a failed drugs test ?
Oh and the Pure Dynamite book is well worth the finding ...
Posted By: Northants Grecian (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 08:59 AM
The first Savage/Steamboat match didn't last 15 minutes. I also thought I heard that McMahon didn't want Savage blowing up in his 2nd round match with Steamboat and still have two matches left that night.
Posted By: O'Dog (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 09:31 AM
"Want to write an opinion piece on the size of each female wrestler's booty? Rock on."
Well there goes THAT surprise...
Posted By: Mathew Sforcina (Registered) on September 24, 2008 at 09:33 AM
I think what a lot of people have to realise is that even though we enjoy the characters they portray, most wrestlers are dicks. Bret Hart is a dick; Ric Flair is a dick; Mick Foley; Shawn Michaels is HUUUUGE dick; Steve Austin is a dick and so on.
This shouldn't really effect our enjoyment of their characters, but it worth noting when people are still squabbling over stuff 10, 20, 30 years after the fact. They might be our heroes... but they are dicks.
And Flair chiding Hart for not jobbing the title is some of the most hypocritical B.S. I've ever heard.
Posted By: five star (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 09:34 AM
I agree that Ric Flair is extremely over rated. Flair is a wrestler that only die hard marks enjoy. I remember several times in the dorms at college when guys who were not fans of wrestling would see a Flair promo or match and ask, "Who is that crazy old man?" or "Why do people like this guy?" Conversly, when Jericho, Austin, Rock, Angle, or Christian were on the screen everyone would sit and watch and talk about how awesome those guys were. Flair fans are like Pavlov's dogs, you only like him because you have been conditioned to like him. If Billy Jack Haynes had gone from territory to territory, always being protected, only working with the absolute best (Steamboat, Rhodes, Kerry Von Erich, Race, Sting, Savage, Hart, Henning, etc), and every one treating the full nelson like the most unbeatable hold in wrestling, then all you Flair marks would be saying that Billy Jack is the greatest of all time. Everything Bret and Foley said about Flair is gospel.
Posted By: Shady (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 09:41 AM
"I'm confused why someone's weight would matter to their writing."
i wasn't just referring to his wieght.
although, he is a massive fat ass irl.
Posted By: Darth Mortis (Registered) on September 24, 2008 at 09:53 AM
"Venom" = Joey Abs
Posted By: McLovin (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 09:56 AM
Always heard that the Venom who fought HBK in the TWA was Paul Diamond, who was a trainer there.
Posted By: Ice Cold (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 10:33 AM
Csonka is actually much more analogous to Cena than HHH. He's everywhere these days, so it sometimes feels like you get an overload of him. Public opinion on him is extremely divided, but nobody can deny that he busts his ass on a regular basis for his company.
P.S. I am both a Cena fan and a Csonka fan.
Posted By: Ange (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 10:34 AM
"bet if bret was facing the Undertaker or Austin, he would've lost the belt to them on Canada or anywhere else."
According to Mick Foley in his first book, if Bret had his way, he would have either dropped the belt to him (Mankind) or Austin. Just clarifying.
Foley's more credible, Shawn said in his book that Bret didn't want to lose to anyone. Foley said he'd lose to him or Austin and I've heard there were other options like Shamrock, Taker, and to a lesser degree Vader.
Posted By: Blade Hart (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 10:59 AM
i think the dude that wrote in asking about czonka was none other than chris hyatt
Posted By: whosoever (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 11:10 AM
Dynamite Rocks.
Czonka's a tard.
Bret is the best there was, is, and will be ... make that just was ... but that's only cuz Dyno's body gave out on him.
Posted By: Guest#0161 (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 11:13 AM
If memory servers me right then the Venom character in TWA was played by Paul Diamond known from AWA and in the WWF as one half of the Orient Express he was Kato.
Posted By: Nasty Suicide (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 11:14 AM
I could have sworn Paul Burchill is another UK wrestler...
Posted By: Banz (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 11:18 AM
Outside of TNA and WWE, what British Wrestlers are still about? How about the entire UK wrestling scene!
PAC actually started his career in my home town's wrestling promotion the IWF and we all knew he was something special then.
But, in this country, we also have the likes of 1PW, LDN, All Star, AAW, SCW, 3CW and tonnes more who are making pretty good names for themselves.
Pure Dynamite is an excellent book. A bit bitter at times, but you really can't blame him.
Posted By: Semprini (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 11:21 AM
"It's a throwback to WCW when Russo made fun of his (Jarrett's) WWF Double J gimmick, which had him playing a country singer"
Actually, it has absolutely nothing to do with WCW. Jarrett had the country singer gimmick in WWF, went to WCW as plain vanilla Jeff Jarret/fake horsemen Jeff Jarrett, then returned to WWF as New Age/NWA Jeff Jarrett, then reprised the country singer gimmick with Tennessee Lee (Col. Robert Parker/Fuller) as his manager. Somewhere between Lee and Debra as managers, he started hitting people with the guitar, a gimmick he brought with him back to WCW.
Posted By: jeff (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 11:39 AM
"I think what a lot of people have to realise is that even though we enjoy the characters they portray, most wrestlers are dicks. Bret Hart is a dick; Ric Flair is a dick; Mick Foley; Shawn Michaels is HUUUUGE dick; Steve Austin is a dick and so on."
ROTFL! You are so right! Except for Foley, whom I don't think I ever heard bad stuff, each of them is guilty of being an asshole - or a dick, with Michaels being probably the biggest dick of them all!
"And Flair chiding Hart for not jobbing the title is some of the most hypocritical B.S. I've ever heard.
Posted By: five star (Guest)"
So right again dude! And btw as mentioned, Hogan would also chide Hart for that, can you believe that jerk?
Posted By: Guest#0661 (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 11:52 AM
""bet if bret was facing the Undertaker or Austin, he would've lost the belt to them on Canada or anywhere else."
According to Mick Foley in his first book, if Bret had his way, he would have either dropped the belt to him (Mankind) or Austin. Just clarifying.
Foley's more credible, Shawn said in his book that Bret didn't want to lose to anyone. Foley said he'd lose to him or Austin and I've heard there were other options like Shamrock, Taker, and to a lesser degree Vader.
Posted By: Blade Hart (Guest)"
From different sources, Hart also offered to cleanly lose the title next day (Monday) on RAW to anybody other than Shawn Michaels, he said it could be Shamrock, Mankind, Austin, even the fucking Brooklyn Brawler. Vince of course pretended to accept that.
Shawn said a LOT of things about Hart, not surprisingly all bad. He also said a lot of other things, a LOT of which were proved to be untrue.
Posted By: Guest#3681 (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 11:55 AM
Terry Goodkind wrote the Sword of Truth Series.
Robert Jordan wrote the Wheel of Time.
A little mix up.
Posted By: Mighty One (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 11:56 AM
It is TERRY Goodkind! Not Robert, hahaha. What reference did you make to the Sword of Truth Series?! I cant believe I missed it. Here is hoping the TV series is good!
Posted By: A.G. Awesome (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 12:19 PM
Other than that comment I haven't seen anyone say anything remotely similar to Csonka being the HHH of 411.
In regards to the gutless twat waffle that left the comment, go and make your own wrestling news and article site and let's see your sites PPD come remotely close to a Csonka article.
Good work to all the guys on 411, clearly the best wrestling news site around, keep it up.
Posted By: Smoothie King (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 12:39 PM
Venom was in fact "Hard Rock" Paul Diamond who was also a trainer at Michaels' wrestling school. The feud actually made sense from a historic standpoint,too, considering the Midnight Rockers (feuded with
Posted By: RDR (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 12:45 PM
Venom was, in fact, Paul Diamond who was training at Michaels' school at the time. The fued made sense due to thier Midnight Rockers vs Badd Co and Rockers vs. Orient Express fueds.
Posted By: RDR (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 12:47 PM
"I think what a lot of people have to realise is that even though we enjoy the characters they portray, most wrestlers are dicks. Bret Hart is a dick; Ric Flair is a dick; Mick Foley; Shawn Michaels is HUUUUGE dick; Steve Austin is a dick and so on."
Strange since Foley has a reputation as being one of the most approachable, down-to-earth people on the planet outside of the ring. If he was ever a dick, it was probably because some super fan drove him insane instead of treating him like a human being.
Flair recently had a reputation as a dick, but was well within his rights. A dork went up to him and used insider terminology which pissed Flair off. And it should. It's incredibly lame to use the "speak" if you're not in the industry. Period. Everybody in the IWC does it and acts like they're industry experts in the process. Flair is old school and still likes to see some aura of believability in his profession.
Also, despite the allegations that beats women, I've never heard a "he's a dick" story about Austin.
Posted By: Jason S (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 12:56 PM
Agree with McLovin. I used to follow TWA as closely as I could. Venom was DEFINITELY Joey Abs.
Posted By: American Hyena (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 01:00 PM
Shady is obviously under the legal drinking age-- if you automatically think people are "conditioned" to like flair... it couldn't possibly be because they loved him when he was young and people don't just start hating someone because they're not as with it as they used to be? No, of course not! This is the internet we have to all act dumber than we are.
Posted By: M:-X (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 01:19 PM
I think the problem with Wrestling is also one of the best things about wrestling... that it’s political and pre-determined. There is always going to be fans that feel A-way and then fans that feel B-way. It’s just a fact of life. While I think Bret should have dropped the title to whomever the promoter wanted, due to him leaving, I can also understand his political feelings. He didn't like HBK and didn't want to be the one putting him over. Flair might not be the best physical specimen in all of wrestling but you can’t deign the fact that he is one of the all time greats. Just like Hogan wasn’t the best wrestler around, they both knew how to work things back stage. And when you boil it all down for Professional Wrestling, it all comes down to politics. The better politic-er back stage will end up being promoted and pushed the best on TV. While HHH isn’t bad over all he wouldn’t be where he is today without being married to the bosses daughter, period. The Game knows the “REAL Game” is in the back with who you know. Look at Randy Orton, no matter how many times he screws up or gets hurt he still comes back with a big push and right back into the title picture. Now who out there doesn’t think that’s because Daddy Orton has something on Vince, that Vince doesn’t want out in the public?
BTW, Great work on the article its one of my favorites on the web. Keep up the good work!
Posted By: ermacpd (Registered) on September 24, 2008 at 01:38 PM
Just wanted to say that Csonka is not the most hated writer on the internet...That title belongs to none other than 411's own AJ Grey if you use that term "writer" very loosely.
Posted By: Guest#1397 (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 01:40 PM
Flair chiding Bret for refusing to do the J.O.B is totally hypocritical. Does anyone remember right before he went to the WWF? Herd tried to get the belt off him but he refused every time. I understand that Bret did not have a $25,000 deposit on the belt but hypocrisy is what it is. Flair would job to NO ONE, Bret (I believe it has been pointed out several times) would job to several people but NOT Michaels.
Posted By: Ryan (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 02:15 PM
"Csonka is actually much more analogous to Cena than HHH. He's everywhere these days, so it sometimes feels like you get an overload of him. Public opinion on him is extremely divided, but nobody can deny that he busts his ass on a regular basis for his company.
P.S. I am both a Cena fan and a Csonka fan.
Posted By: Ange (Guest) "
I don't even know who that "Csonka" is... so no, I don't see any analogy
Posted By: Guest#4356 (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 02:24 PM
Csonka is still lightyears ahead of Jeff Small.
Posted By: Chris (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 02:29 PM
Venom was Paul Diamond, if i remember correctly he was HBK's tag partner in the AWA before Jannety, he mentions it on his latest dvd release. I was there live for that match, which Shawn wore a back brace for. He was stiff as a board the whole match. The match with him and HHH from Summerslam 02 was pretty much move for move the same as the Venom match.
I miss that promotion, I got to see Bryan Danielson and Spanky before they were stars
Posted By: jarrod (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 02:34 PM
hey ask411 dude you are wrong about the origin of jarrett's guitar gimmick. don't you remember his "don't piss me off" gimmick in the wwf with debra?
Posted By: seandroid (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 02:53 PM
I attended a show in Canada with Abdulah on it - and dude can't get in the ring. He has to brawl on outside the whole time.
RE: Bret and Flair... they are both right. Bret is terrible on the mic
and he is a whiney bitch. And Flair IS over rated.
Doug Williams did sign a 2 year deal. He got a 2 year visa from TNA. So did a couple others from the X Cup who havent appeared since.
Posted By: O-ster (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 02:54 PM
The best thing, other than his WCW "Chosen One" enterance, that Ja-Double R-E-Double T, has ever done, was BLASTING, Deborah Michaels (kayfabe married to Mongo) in the face on WCW THUNDER (Taping/Live from Topeka, KS).
She didn't even have to sell, she was out cold.
Posted By: The Shawn (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 03:13 PM
I thinkit is funny how many people complain about Flair and him being overrrated. Most seem to show there age. They have only seen past his prime Flair, still better than most half his age. But when you watch Flair in his prime(1980-1990), he is head and shoulders better than anyone else at the time. It was a totally different time then, the business was very different. You had to talk the asses to the seats, and he could do that. People didn't just show up to fill stadiums becouse it was there and had wrestling, like today with the WWE marketing machine. Flair adapted and succeeded through the changes. Bret Hart couldn't do a good promo when Flair was trying to help make him. He got better, and was a decent Promo come 1997. And who was the guy who was used to get Bret over, both as a Champ (which he wasn't viewed as at the time) and when he went to WCW. Oh, that Flair guy. If Bret thinks Ultimate Warrior or hogan were going to lay down for a mid card Bret Hart in 92 to try and run with the ball, think again. Beating Flair for the title was one of the biggest thing to help Bret become the star he became
Posted By: joe (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 03:20 PM
Hart was well within his rights to do as he saw fit -- he a clause in his contract stipulating reasonable creative control over anything he was involved in. You can debate whether or not he's a dick for getting that put into the contract but Vince agreed to it. I don't recall if there was ever a lawsuit on Bret's part but he probably would have had decent legal standing to do so since Vince broke a legally binding contract. Bret has repeatedly stated he was willing to drop the belt, with people like Foley seemingly backing up his statements, so his refusal to drop the belt to Shawn couldn't really be seen as unreasonable.
Posted By: Rob S. (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 05:03 PM
Flair didn't make Bret into a star. I like Flair but Bret beating for the belt didn't help Bret much. It wasn't televised so it's not like the general audience got to see the entire match to get behind Bret. And after winning, Bret still wasn't the top guy in the company for at least another year to year and a half. Hogan was still around stealing whatever attention he could, then Vince tried to throw all his money in with the Lex Express. It wasn't until '94 that Bret became a real star for the company and that was through his own hard work. Wrestlemania X made the Bret Hart legend, not his first reign which really wasn't that notable except because of the reason behind it (draw attention away from the steroid freaks).
I'm not trying to denigrate Flair. I love both guys. But Flair didn't really due all that much to make Bret. He dropped the title but that could've been accomplished that any number of ways. They could've stripped the title from Flair a few weeks before the Royal Rumble and put Bret over that way. Flair was still around until the night after the Rumble when Perfect beat him in a Loser Leaves Town match so they could've just extended his reign a few months. In this situation, Flair was just a warm body to drop the belt to Bret.
Posted By: Rob S. (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 05:54 PM
I think that the Crybaby match was here in Louisville.
Posted By: The Great Capt. Smooth (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 06:10 PM
"Just wanted to say that Csonka is not the most hated writer on the internet...That title belongs to none other than 411's own AJ Grey if you use that term "writer" very loosely."
well, AJ Grey is only hated by those of us who don't need the internet for sexual thrills.
the impotent virgins love the guy tho.
Posted By: Darth Mortis (Registered) on September 24, 2008 at 06:11 PM
CSONKA RUN-IN
EPIC
Posted By: guest (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 06:21 PM
Yeah, Foley probably isn't on the same level of dickness as Michaels, Flair or Hogan but I feel he has a pretty over inflated view of his position in the history of wrestling which can come off as arrogance.
And yeah, I'm sure Austin is an awesome guy to have a view beers with, but he beat his wife. He's a dick.
Posted By: five star (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 06:46 PM
Hey, "Mr. X" (more like MRF), I'm thirty. That means I was in college 10 years ago. It was in '99 and 2000 that people were saying that shit about Flair. I can remember watching Flair as far back as 1988, and I never was impressed with him. What is the big deal about him having great matches with Steamboat. Every match Steamboat ever had with Rude or Savage was way better. As for his promos, only baby-minds would be entertained by that shit.
Posted By: Shady (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 07:04 PM
Ric Flair's book is full of shit. Ricky Steamboat has said in the past he loved working with Randy Savage, and that the WrestleMania match was one of the great matches, and that they had prepared for the match at House Shows leading up to WMIII. It wasn't just a match that Savage plotted.
Posted By: The Man (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 07:21 PM
I now agree on two thngs with Darth Mortis.
#1- Larry is just as good, if not better, than Scott Keith. I don't agree with all of his views, but I sure as hell appreciate all of the work that Larry and all of the other writers put into the site for my enjoyment.
#2- Coca-cola slurpees are still number one. OLD SCHOOL.
Posted By: The Heartbreak Troll (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 07:28 PM
" Bret has repeatedly stated he was willing to drop the belt, with people like Foley seemingly backing up his statements, so his refusal to drop the belt to Shawn couldn't really be seen as unreasonable.
Posted By: Rob S. (Guest)"
And it's not like DOZENS of other fucking wrestlers, champions or not, never refused to cleanly put somebody else over. Hart did it once while having fucking legal backup and he still gets shit for it up today.
Posted By: Guest#2626 (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 07:39 PM
Chris Lansdell, you just try learning to talk without Larry Csnoka's flacid penis in your mouth 24/7.
Posted By: THE Valkamor, Saviour Of IWC (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 10:22 PM
I think most of you smart ass "smarks" who are cutting on Flair are a bunch of puberty laden, porn watching on your computer in your basement, sponge off your parents losers.
It's usually easy to ignore your stupid asses, but it gets a little old when the same damn people on these boards keep harping on how great their favorites are, when many of them couldn't draw flies. And if they could, couldn't work a decent match with 90% of their peers. I mean names like Anvil and Christian being mentioned as some of the greats?! Warrior?!!! This is exactly why nobody in the business gives a shit about you people.
BTW it's also a fucking cheap shot to talk about Flair's personal life of late, when many of the same names they talk about as their heroes screwed their life up so bad they aren't in the business anymore, or worse, not around period. Truth.
Posted By: FlairForever (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 10:28 PM
Bret was a solid main eventer, nothing more or nothing less. In his hey day Naitch was the 2nd most well known wrestler in the business. Ric bascially had no weaknesses in his prime.
Posted By: WhatsCausinAllThis (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 10:47 PM
- It amazes me how some people can ask such simply questions. The two IC belts at 'Mania? Do people not know how to search wiki or just use google in general?
- Please don't answer a spam e-mail again. It makes you look both childish and unfunny.
- People complain about internet writers? Wow. I swear, everytime I feel too pulled in by the IWC some uber nerdy stuff like arguments over which website writers are cool and which are dicks breakout and I realize that I could be much, MUCH worse.
- I love Bret and Flair (and this may be a very unpopular opinion) but I think both of them and especially Shawn all got caught up in the same trap. They were all so good for so long that they accidentally got into a rut. Their matches were always good but they were also always the same stuff over and over again. Isn't there a writer who coined the phrase, "five moves of doom?" It's like that with all of them. I know what moves they're all always going to do and I have a pretty good idea when they're coming in a match.
It's not bad wrestling. On their own each of their matches are very good. But when you watch a DVD compilation of their greatest matches the fact that they do the same stuff over and over again really sticks out like a sore thumb.
- Bret's never been a great interview but he definitely had some very good ones later in his career. He just wasn't a naturally promo guy but he worked his ass off to get better at them. At the end of the day, he wound up being a very passable interviewee. But he was never great.
Posted By: The Mayor of Awesometown (Guest) on September 24, 2008 at 10:53 PM
"...they didn't want to lessen the impact of the previous year's match by only giving this one 15 minutes."
The original was less than 15 minutes by the way.
Posted By: dime138 (Registered) on September 24, 2008 at 10:54 PM
Shouldn't that be Terry Goodkind?
Posted By: Newt (Guest) on September 25, 2008 at 02:57 AM
why do you hate westerfeld?
Posted By: artistic (Guest) on September 25, 2008 at 09:02 AM
Dear FlairForever:
I assume you put my comment in the "Flair bashing" bucket. All I said was that he was hypocritical. Now, rather than attacking the man (what we logical, non-morons call an "ad hominem" or fallacious argument), how about you prove wrong the statement "Flair is hypocritical for chiding Bret for refusing to job to Shawn because he's done the same thing throughout his career".
I'd certainly be more impressed with that than your boring, thoughtless drivel.
Love,
Ryan
Posted By: Ryan (Guest) on September 25, 2008 at 01:36 PM
Probably? Heh.
And Zonkers! What's with that Csonka hater? That guy should have his internet cut off and seek immediate therapy.
Posted By: Michael O (Registered) on September 25, 2008 at 05:37 PM
Dynamite didn't become a bitter hate-filled dick after getting himself paralyzed. He was always a bitter hate-filled dick, right from the start. He could put on a good match, but I have a hard time giving in-ring credit to a guy who would take liberties with people he was in the ring with.
Busting Foley's jaw cause he had the gall to try to talk to him before their match is one in a long list of examples of how "great" Dynamite was in the ring.
Posted By: Diet Coke (Guest) on September 25, 2008 at 08:59 PM
I can sit back and read the Flair, Shawn and Bret hating but not when people start dissing Warrior Warrior and Anvil. Seriously, what is 411 coming to?
Posted By: Carl Amari (Guest) on September 26, 2008 at 05:27 PM
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