Ask 411 Wrestling 10.08.08: International Edition
Posted by Chris Lansdell on 10.08.2008
Questions from across the globe about The Rock's transformation, why Taker doesn't job, the death of WCCW, Lawler's big-time victories, Jericho vs Goldberg and more!
Greetings, humanity! Welcome back to Ask 411 Wrestling with me, Chris Lansdell. One of the hidden perks of writing this column is that I get to go back on several nostalgic journeys when answering questions. Through this week's column I found YouTubes of the Great Kabuki, Iceman King Parsons and his Butt-Butt, General Skandor Akbar and Ralphus and the Jericho Ninja. That's in addition to looking up some great comedic promos. While doing this I was listening to this week's musical accompaniment, Oblivion by 30 Seconds to Mars. Yes I know they're emo. That's OK, they still appreciate a good...
BANNER!
Banner compliments of Benjamin Colon. See more of his work at soulexodus.com.
Cleaning Up
Regarding football players: Missed a few, but not surprising: Ricky Ortiz, Hacksaw Jim Duggan, Wahoo McDaniel, Bronco Nagurski, Heidenreich, Manny Fernandez, Lex Luger, Tito Santana.
Regarding home town wins: Of course, Trish won her retirement match, for the title and in her home town. An unheard-of honour for the most improved female wrestler of all time
Regarding Snuka as part of the Anoa'i family: Some people should chill and read the whole answer before jumping on things.
Regarding Marc Mero: I don't know why but I always mix up the 45 and the SSP. The TKO debate is an interesting one because both arguments make sense. Anyone want to go ask Marc? While you're at it, point out to him that including people like Owen on his Death List is pretty crass, since his death was in no way linked to the issue he is pushing, namely pro wrestling causing people to do steroids.
That will do us for the corrections, so let's move smoothly on along? Are we ready for some trivia? Then Let's Get DANGEROUS~!
Question Time!
Bob starts us off with a question about a legend:
Been reading this column for years, across many different writers. This is my first time asking a question. What is the condition of Magnum T.A.? Can he walk around without a cane now? Did he get worse? I know he has made occasional indy appearances, but I have never heard how he is doing.
Last I heard he was on crutches following back surgery. He owns his own construction business near Charlotte and has made appearances backstage at a couple of WWE events. The wrestling community has been good to Magnum, holding several tribute and benefit events in his honour. I have not heard if the surgery improved his condition at all.
Creepy Old Young Man has some Dwayne Johnson questions on behalf of a friend:
Now, I am not a Rock fan, but a buddy of mine asked me some questions that I did not have the answers to, so I decided to use Ask411 for what it's for. So here's a few Rock related questions for you...
1. When was the first time The Rock used his, "You Smell What The Rock Is Cooking" entrance music? Did it début on Raw? Did it début on a PPV?
2. When was the first time The Rock asked if you smelled what he was cooking?
3. When did The Rock first start using "The People's Eyebrow" consistently?
4. When did The Rock first start referring to himself in the third person?
All of these happened around the same time: when he turned heel, joined the Nation and started usurping Faarooq. It sprung to prominence when The Rock gave all the Nation gifts. Faarooq got a portrait of the Rock and everyone else got Rolexes. Those were the days...
Fred is apparently bringing us questions from down under, where women blow and men chunder. I love Aussies, even if they do call me "Pommie bastard".
Giday mate love the column
I've got three questions for you from the early 2000s
1.with the return of R-truth I've been having flash backs of K-Kwik now can u plz tell me what idiot came up with that gimik and why it failed so badly
Well I can't pin this one on Russo: Killings wasn't called up to the main roster until 2001 and Russo was gone by then. I don't think the gimmick was bad or that it failed, he was just around at a bad time: right around the Invasion. With all these new faces showing up. Killings got shuffled behind the back burner and was released. And if you think K-Kwik was bad, his name in XPW was K. Malik Shabazz. No, seriously.
2.What exactly was the idea around the brood
The idea? They were Gothic warriors, followers of vampirism. Sound familiar? Gangrel was the clear leader and Edge and Christian were his followers, after Christian debuted as a heel against a face Edge (playing an angry young man gimmick at the time) and eventually turned Edge to join the group. They also had what is widely considered the greatest entrance ever.
3.Why did the brood Version 1 fall through ( i believe that Christian and edge where apart of it)
Couple of reasons. Mainly because Gangrel was and still is a legit follower of vampirism, and Edge and Christian were…a touch spooked by the whole situation, Creative decided to go ahead and split them up. There was also a thought that Edge and Christian were going to be huge, and would be better off getting out from under Gangrel's shadow.
Damien continues the trend of asking me what was said in the ring:
I was wondering if you knew what The Rock was telling Stone Cold Steve Austin after their Wrestlemania 19 match was over in the ring while Austin was on his back. It seems like The Rock was telling him something, patted him a couple of times on the chest, and then got up.
There are at most 3 people who know for sure what was said, and since I am not Austin, The Rock or the referee I am not one of them. I can make an educated guess that Rock thanked Austin for putting him over in a solid match, and possibly talked about giving the fans something to remember.
Isaac takes us back to the time of high tops, flat tops and tube tops:
Great article. I did some 80's DVD watching this weekend and came up with a few for you to contemplate / clear up.
In the World's Greatest Wrestling Managers DVD, there is a clip with Heenan and Perfect holding up one of the old tag team belts. What's that about? Perfect wasn't a tag champ, unless they did a phantom switch or something.
This is back when Flair first came to WWF and they were working the "Real World's champion" angle with him. As he still had physical possession of the NWA title belt (he wouldn't give it up until he got his $25,000 deposit back) he would appear on TV showing it off. The NWA had an injunction to stop WWF from displaying it on TV so the title was blurred. Once Flair did return the belt, they switched to an old tag title belt which was still being blurred out.
- Is it really true that Jerry Lawler holds victories over Andre, Flair and Hogan? I'd assume any of those victories involved shenanigans of some sort, and Lawler booking himself like the star he isn't.
Don't be so quick to write off Jerry's star power. He is HUGE in the mid south, especially Tennessee. His bid to become mayor of Memphis was a serious one and could well have succeeded. He has a tag team victory over both Ric Flair and Triple H (with Shawn Michaels as his partner) on a house show in 2003, and his WWE.com profile states he holds a victory over Hogan (and Terry Funk), but I could not find any record of a match with Andre. He does hold victories over Randy Savage and Bret Hart though.
When Lawler beat Texas Tornado for the WCCW belt, was that the end of that promotion, or was there a re-match shortly afterwards to restore order? I do have the WCCW DVD somewhere, but haven't got around to watching it and don't know much about that fed.
Well, it was and it wasn't the end. Lawler beat Kerry for the title twice, and the second time marked the first folding of WCCW. It was revived in several forms over the following 3 or 4 years but never took hold, mainly because most of the big stars had died or moved on. Jerry Jarrett bought WCCW and merged it with CWA before the title unification in 1989, but the matches continued for a little while under the WCCW name.
Senthil continues this week's international flavour with some questions from India, home of Small's man-crush and the second-greatest batsman in the last 30 years:
I was watching a clip in youtube. It might be something you guys have discussed a lot, but I never saw any matches from WCW(as I am from India, we can watch only WWF/E. WCW wasn't telecast there). So the question...It was some PPV and the match was Y2J Vs Goldberg. Y2J is shown backstage and he starts with two guys with HUUUUGE bellies walking his way and opening several doors but the doors lead to the parking lot etc and he seems to be lost on his way to the ring. At last he makes to the ring and tries to mock Goldberg's entrance, but the fireworks doesn't start..Then he kicks it and goes to ring and match starts after some time. The match was a very short one ans Goldberg taps to the Liontamer. My questions are
1. Did Jericho really loose his way to the ring? Wont there be guys who signal him to the correct path?
Jericho did not lose his way to the ring. The whole thing was an elaborate joke and meant to make fun of Goldberg's entrance, during which someone would knock on his dressing room door and he would be escorted through the backstage area by (normally) 4 security personnel. Then he'd come through the curtain and stand on the entrance ramp in a shower of pyrotechnics, which you seem to know about. Jericho getting lost was further proof that he is one of the 3 best goofy heels in wrestling history (with Kurt Angle and Kai en Tai).
As an aside, Jericho did not beat the real Goldberg. In fact, the real Goldberg never tapped out to anyone. It was in fact a random little person dressed as Goldberg, and they did this 4 times in total with Jericho claiming to be 4-0 against Goldberg. One of the guys with the belly was the legendary Ralphus, the other was the Jericho Ninja. The occurrence to which you are referring was at Fall Brawl. Here, see:
2. Did the fireworks malfunction or was it meant to make Jericho look like an idiot?
It was meant to make him look like a cheap knockoff. As an aside, WWF tried a whole gimmick that made fun of Goldberg (Gillberg), which was hilarious and had guys standing either side of the entrance ramp with sparklers in their hands.
3. I heard that Jericho and Goldberg had some real fight backstage..Is that after this match or before? Can you please explain me the real life incident?
Jericho confirmed the fight happened, it was well after the parodies and took place when both were in WWE. Goldberg mentioned something about Jericho needing to learn how to sell better...hang on:
There goes the irony meter. Anyway, Goldberg told Nash to take liberties with Jericho. Jericho heard about it and took Goldberg down with a front facelock. No punches were thrown and it was quickly broken up. Apparently they were able to function well enough together after that incident as they had a match at Bad Blood.
John has some more old questions: Long time reader, long time watching WWE/F and have a few questions that always had me scratching my head:
1. I remember watching Todd Pettingill and that other woman(Melissa something) on Saturday mornings, and remember Todd was about to introduce a match with Crush. He then went on to say Crush had been fired due to guns being found in his house. Was this true? It seemed a bit strange at the time and after he announced it he just moved on to the next match up as if it was just a run of the mill incident.
"That other woman" is now Mrs Shane McMahon and her name is Marissa, by the way. Crush wasn't actually fired for the incident, but he did do jail time for having an illegal stun gun in his home, along with steroids. Go figure. He was obviously off air during this time, and when he came back it was worked into his character.
2. When Ken Shamrock was feuding with the Corporate Ministry, I remember he called Taker out but actually called him Mark. Did he get any punishment for this as with what was asked about wrestlers being called by real names last time.
He didn't get punished because it fit in perfectly with his anger and the way the angle was written. This was at a time when shoots and insider comments were still new and cool, so although it was almost certainly a slip, it was allowed to slide.
3. I'm sure it's been asked before, but when I was a kid WCW came to Ireland on St.Patricks Day. It was billed as the "St Patricks Day Bash". Anyway, WCW was rarely shown on tv in Ireland back then, so the only guys I knew of were Sting, Vader & British Bulldog(although I knew Vinnie Vegas looked familiar when he turned up as Diesel!) In the main event Sting beat Vader for the WCW heavyweight title. It was a shock to everyone as even back then we knew titles hardly changed hands especially big titles. Vader won it back a few days later in England, but I'm sure it was mentioned on WCW. Why doesn't Vince ever do this, even with the US/IC titles, it would give a bit more credibility to the European tours instead of just booking them like house shows.
On a side note the best thing about that event was the announcer frantically telling everyone to get out of the ring when it was invaded by 60 odd kids after the main event!
Vince does do it every now and then, he's cut down on it a lot since removing the European title from circulation though. The problem with putting a title change on a house show is that very few people will get to see it. Vince is all about money, and barring an injury changing titles in front of even a big house show is throwing money away. The scenario you mentioned, with the guy who lost the title winning it back a few days later, is often viewed as cheapening both the title and the title win for the guy who gets it for 4 days.
4. Last one, I've only ever met 3 wrestlers. Million Dollar Man, Regal & Finlay. Finlay came across as being grumpy while Regal & DiBiase were great. Do wrestlers actually enjoy meet & greets or is it just a pain for most of them to take time out of their schedule for a few hours. It also bugs me that you always have to purchase merchandise such as a WWE book or Video Game to gain access to meet them
There are so many variables in relation to this. Some wrestlers are in fact pricks, so they resent these sessions. However for the most part the wrestlers will not show it, even if they would rather be anywhere but there, since the sessions are a great source of income for them and help them get over with fans. Things like a long and tough tour, a bad mood, following kayfabe if you're a heel, difficult or smarkish or annoying fans and even being stiffed by the organiser of the event could make the guy you just paid to see seem annoying. I can see your point about buying the merchandise, however the company putting on the event (normally a retailer who has paid the wrestler and/or WWE for the appearance) has to recoup their costs somehow. I have very limited experience at these signings, and the last one I was at (Lance Storm and Bushwacker Luke) was very reasonable. I saw Lance signing DVDs from the RoH show he wrestled on, action figure boxes, magazines and even 8x10s of other guys with him on it for free. The only charge was for the photos and t-shirts he brought with him, which you were not required to buy.
Stewart has a question only loosely related to wrestling, but I shall answer it anyway:
Love your column i read it every week. first time question. Ok so last night im watching a new episode of the american version of Ramsey's kitchen nightmares. They renovated a Long Island bar into Long Islands first gastro-pub. 1 of the guests on the show was the guy from twisted sister who after the grand re-opening of this place invited some of his friends to join him there for dinner this is towards the end of the show. 1 of his guests there looked exactly like Mick Foley but it was not credited on the show. After watching wrestling the past 25 years i can tell you i know foley. Can you tell me was that mick foley or have am i wrong ?
It was Foley. Not only does Mick live on Long Island, he is very close friends with the lead singer of Twisted Sister. So it makes perfect sense for him to be there.
Tarek has a series of great questions:
I will add to your ever increasing pop by saying great job on the column. I have some questions to ask.
1. In ECW why are they debuting so many talents when they are not using Elijah Burke. He is good on the mic, great look and is not awful in ring? I mean whats he doing not on TV? I mean he is never on TV. Not even to job.
Excellent question, and one to which nobody seems to have an answer. He's not even being used on house shows, there have been no reports of heat, failed drug tests or being demoted to developmental (he's not showing on any FCW cards either), and he hasn't been fired. I've said before in my Sunday news column that I think they are overloading us on debuts, and like you say not using Elijah is a conundrum.
2. Where are the following talents: Mark Jindrak, Luther Reigns, Mohammed Hassan, Maven and Justice Smith?
I wouldn't go so far as to call Justice Smith a talent, but he's working on American Gladiators right now. Mark Jindrak is still wrestling, making appearances as far afield as Europe and Japan. He had far more talent than he was ever allowed to show (as did Palumbo and O'Haire) and would have been a solid midcarder. Reigns is also still wrestling in the Indys, including with Scott Norton's Wild West Championship Wrestling. He's doing some work as a bodyguard too because really, would you fuck with him? Maven works for the Home Shopping Network and does the odd show for Hermie Sadler's UWF. Mark Copani (Mohammed Hassan) is done with wrestling and is currently working as a writer.
3. When the WWE make someone a champion for the first time why do they seem to always book them weak? Rey, CM Punk, Edge (first time), Eddie, Jericho, Khali and Orton (first time). The only ones in recent memory that made it as first time champs are Cena, Batista and JBL. Now I can understand the arguments to be made with Rey being an underdog but come on how can they expect someone to get over especially a face if he does not win clean and jobs on the reg? Its so annoying. Plus I see that this kind of action and story telling is hurts the value of the belt. Do you agree?
While I think making your champion look weak CAN hurt the value of the belt, I don't agree that Eddie and to a lesser extent Khali were booked to look weak on their title runs. The others did and the reasoning behind it is as confusing as your first question. Edge and Jericho were heels for their first wins, while Punk and Orton were faces so you can't say it was a face/heel thing. However, the cowardly heel champ who retains cheaply is an accepted booking policy, so that kind of excuses Jericho and Edge. Orton and Jericho both dropped to HHH, but Edge dropped to Cena and Punk to Jericho so again, it's not a politics thing.
There is no hard and fast answer, it seems. In Orton's case, it was a litmus test for a face turn and a title run (neither of which he proved to be ready for) and also a way to get the "youngest-ever champion" accolade off Brock Lesnar and on to someone they still liked. Rey was booked as an underdog who found ways to win, Eddie's whole gimmick was lying, cheating and stealing, Edge was the chicken shit heel. CM Punk was supposed to be portrayed as a plucky, never-give-up champion who won despite being beaten down, but he came off as a flukey guy who wasn't capable of dominating anyone.
4. Taker why does he not job? I don't care what anyone says that he makes people look good because he really doesn't. He wins every feud he is in and never puts anyone over. Orton, Cena, Batista, Edge. These matches he has he always seems to win the last match in the feud hence he gets the rub not the other guy. I know he is respected and has a lot of value but seriously I cant rate Edge that high any more because he was made to look weak against Taker at SummerSlam. I know the argument that he kicked out of the last ride but he was beaten with a Tombstone, not two but only one. He was chokeslammed through the ring and injured so bad that he hasn't appeared on TV since. Taker was fine after his match.... how does this make Edge not look weak? Taker does not need any rub or overness as he is more over than HBK. Does not make any sense. Please let me know why.
It's partly the Legend effect – the man is the biggest name left active in professional wrestling. Most non-wrestling fans, or even people who used to watch, will remember Taker and ask if he still wrestles. They know Hogan doesn't, they know The Rock doesn't. Taker seems to be remembered more than even Austin. We're talking about a guy who gets 4-minute PPV entrances simply because they pop the crowd. Beating the Undertaker even once can do wonders for your career. Edge's feud with Taker didn't make Edge look weak at all, in fact it was some of his best heel work to date and when he comes back it will be fascinating to see how he works. Unlike people like Ric Flair and Mick Foley whose later years were devalued by losing to all and sundry, beating Taker still means something and that's because it rarely happens.
The Biesel wants to know if wrestling has audibles.
Great column...keep up the good work.
Question...do wrestlers know the outcome of their matches leading up to the PPV, like when they're going through the storyline and doing promos? Or do they find out the night of the event, or even right before they walk through the curtain.
Depends. It used to be that events were planned long in advance, and in fact Vince McMahon was known to plan Wrestlemania a year ahead and work everything in between to get to his final destination. In recent years though Vince has started changing and rechanging his plans over and over again. This is likely because he is always trying to score one over the internet marks who read spoilers. One famous example would be the time leading up to WrestleMania XX, when Rey, Kurt Angle and Orton were all rumoured to be winning at various times and the decision was allegedly made right before the match started.
In addition to that, has there ever been any famous incidents where the outcome got changed right at the last second, or even during the match (and how they find out it's been changed if they're in the ring)? Has any wrestler ever found out at the last minute and tried not to go through with it?
Well there's that minor incident in Montreal in 1997, which wasn't set in stone until just before Michaels went to the ring, and even Hebner didn't know what was happening until the Sharpshooter was applied. I'm pretty sure there's a really famous example that is completely slipping my mind right now, so hopefully one of the readers can grab it.
The Way I C It…
This week's opinion seeker is Ange, and they're really good ones:
1) A while ago this column was asked what the best promo of all time was, and I believe it came down to Dusty Rhodes' Hard Times narrowly edging out Mick Foley's Cane Dewey. So we now know what the best face promo and the best heel promo of all time are (at least according to this column's staff), but they're both rather serious promos. What, in your opinion, is the best comedic promo of all time? I would humbly submit Chris Jericho's Man of 1004 Holds, but I would not be surprised if The Rock or one of the other comedic greats has a better one.
Jericho's is my favourite. I also enjoyed his introduction of the competitors in the Cruiserweight Battle Royal. The Rock has some classics, including his impersonation of all 5 opponents in the Armageddon 2000 6-man Hell in a Cell match, his tag team verbal beatdown with Jericho of Stephanie, and his backstage promo with Kane and Hogan on the nWo. Angle also cut a great promo prior to that Hell in a Cell, but I have never been able to find it, and he had that goofy-funny promo he cut on Rey Misterio. The nWo Horsemen parody was hilarious too. I still think 1004 holds tops them all, at least for now. Santino might get there one day.
2)What would you recommend as the single best match with which to get a person into pro wrestling? As in, I have a friend who respects that I like the stuff but is sceptical about it himself. What match should I show him in order to convince him that pro wrestling can be badass> and not just "sweaty men rolling around for 20 minutes"?
Wow. Amazing question. First, I'm going to rule out any match from an Indy. Although the in-ring action may be technically better, you do NOT want to have someone's first impression of wrestling be in a poorly-lit gym with 500 candidates for early myocardial infarctions yelling insider shit. Second, you want a match that is fast, athletic, does not need a long angle to back it up and isn't a gimmick match. Because I could not possibly come up with one match myself, I checked with some friends:
The Family Roaster came up with Savage-Steamboat from WM 3
Jeremy Thomas went with Bret-Owen from WMX
THE Ryan Byers went with Dean Malenko-Rey Misterio from Nitro
Lansdell goes with AJ/Daniels/Joe (any of them) or AJ/Daniels-AMW
It was pretty sad how many matches I came up with and had to toss out for the simple reason that Benoit was in them, and you would not want to show his matches to a sceptic: Benoit-Angle (any of them), Benoit-Bret from the Owen tribute, Benoit/Jericho-HHH/Austin, Benoit/Jericho/Angle...
Well folks that's going to do it for another week. As always, it's been a blast. Small, Bayani, Lansdell and the Fact or Fiction crew are in tomorrow, and you can check out my review of TNA Impact for the 360 some time today, with any luck. Stay Cool, Rock Hard.
Jericho getting lost was his tribute to "This is Spinal Tap" he has confirmed this in several interviews, as well as being a parody of the Goldberg entrance.
Posted By: AOD (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 12:05 AM
Rock told Austin that he loved him. Watch it on that Behind the Mania DVD, pretty cool.
Jericho, the Ayatollaha of Rock n Rollah, was of course parodying This Is Spinal Tap. C'mon man, I can't believe you didn't mention that one...
HELLOOOOO CLEVELAND!!
Posted By: Guest#8209 (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 12:17 AM
Perfect was holding a tag belt after his IC tournament win over Tito Santana. For whatever reason, they didn't have the IC belt, so Perfect held up a tag belt instead.
Weird.
Posted By: DG (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 12:24 AM
the best part of that clip of Jericho and 'Goldberg' is that the little guy playing Goldberg not only sold better than the real one, but had a better moveset and workrate.
Posted By: Darth Mortis (Registered) on October 08, 2008 at 12:25 AM
Steve Austin stated in the documentary "The Mania of WrestleMania" that after their match at WM 19, The Rock told him he loved him and Steve responded in kind.
Posted By: Matt (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 12:30 AM
Unless I'm getting my Mania's confused he said "thank you and I love you" or something similar. It's in the 'Mania of Wrestlemania' docco, a pretty sweet story especially for Austin who seems like a prick generally.
Posted By: scott (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 12:35 AM
"One famous example would be the time leading up to WrestleMania XX, when Rey, Kurt Angle and Orton were all rumoured to be winning at various times and the decision was allegedly made right before the match started."
Wrestlemania 22, perhaps?
Posted By: Dylan (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 12:40 AM
...hope that helps, you Pommie bastard
Posted By: scott (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 12:41 AM
Why wouldn't you show the biggest wrestling match in history, Rock v Stone Cold WM 17? It's the two biggest stars the non-fan has heard of besides Hogan, on the biggest stage, in the biggest company, in a great match......
Posted By: Mike (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 12:41 AM
Does anyone have a link to Jericho's introduction of the cruiserweight battle royal?
Posted By: theo (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 12:53 AM
The Rock first said "If you smell what the Rock is cooking" in a Wrestlemania promo, I forget what WM.
Posted By: August (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 01:06 AM
The Rey, Angle, Orton match was WM 22.
In terms of last minute decisions/screwjobs, I think there was the Fabulous Moolah (Spider Lady)/Wendi Richter incident in the mid 80s, where Moolah shoot on Richter and pinned her legit.
Posted By: Johnny Polo (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 01:08 AM
The Jericho entrance was also an homage to "This Is Spinal Tap." Jericho was saying "Hello, Winston-Salem" paying tribute to the famous "Hello, Cleveland" line.
Posted By: Cory (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 01:10 AM
Shelton Benjamin has mentioned that neither he nor Chris Jericho knew what the outcome of their Intercontinental Title match was going to be until the ref told them mid-match at Taboo Tuesday 2004.
Posted By: S Dot (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 01:39 AM
That Perfect and Heenan thing was from when Hennig won the Intercontinental Title and they didn't have that belt readily available for some reason...
A match to show your friend...I would agree with Rock-Austin from WrestleMania X-7 or any of the Flair-Steamboat '89 trilogy.
Posted By: Mark (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 02:07 AM
DG is probably right about Perfect holding a tag belt after he won the IC title. The reason was that the IC tournament took place just after WM6 when Ultimate Warrior won the world title and had to vacate the IC title--but Warrior's IC belt had a yellow strap. The WWF wanted to go back to a black strap and it took a few weeks to get a new strap made. When Perfect won the title, Heenan was introduced as his manager, so this makes sense.
On the other hand, once Flair returned the big gold belt to NWA, he used one of the tag belts as his "Real World's Championship" belt until he won the Royal Rumble 1992 as you noted. By then Perfect was Flair's manager and Heenan was Flair's "adviser" who brought him to the WWF but tended not to accompany him to ringside. Either situation could be correct. But I would imagine it's the earlier Perfect IC reign.
Posted By: subtlefuge (Registered) on October 08, 2008 at 03:03 AM
Rock first said "If you smell what I'm cooking" to Gennifer Flowers during WM14.
And as far as one match to show to a non-fan goes, I really like the Rey/Angle/Orton match from WM22. It's only nine minutes long, and there's some pretty awesome action in it.
Another option is HBK/Cena from WM23. The pre-match promo (which you can find on YouTube) is pretty awesome, and sets a great stage for their match that follows. Batista/Taker from that show is another good one.
Posted By: DG (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 03:08 AM
RE: A match to introduce someone to wrestling.
RVD vs. Jerry Lynn (any of them)
Posted By: Guest#4281 (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 03:18 AM
One match in which the outcome was changed during the match was the title match at IYH-Final 4 in February 1997, Austin was slated to win but got a knee injury during the match and Bret picked up the win instead...I have read several reports that the winner was changed mid match.
Posted By: Guest#2497 (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 03:22 AM
Taboo Tuesday/Cyber Sunday voting, despite the cynics, is NOT rigged. As a public company, the WWE could get into a lot of trouble over fraud. Sure, they push a certain outcome ahead of all others but it can't be guaranteed, and thus most of these matches have their outcomes determined at the time a wrestlers opponent is known.
Posted By: APinOz (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 03:33 AM
How we went from Perfect to Flair in your answer is beyond me, but it entertained me, lol. XIV was the Wrestlemania where Rock said If ya smell during an interview with the non-Monica Lewinski woman that Clinton was rumored to have relations with back then. Speaking of Wrestlemania talking that can't be heard on the show, WM X, when after Bret won the title and all the wrestlers are in there celebrating with him, Owen comes out. It's clearly caught on camera, either mouthed or spoken that audio didn't catch, that Owen said "Good job, Bret."
Posted By: Micah (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 03:45 AM
I can't believe someone wouldn't 'get' that Jericho was parodying Goldberg's entrance...
Posted By: Maffew (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 04:09 AM
First time Rock used the Smell line was on Jennifer Flowers, WM14.
As for last second/mid match booking changes, a famous, if non-confirmed one, is Mind Games, HBK V Mankind for the WWF Title that's on a gajillion DVDs now. You can see Vince getting up and talking to everyone mid match, and the booking of the match makes a LOT more sense if you take out the DQ.
Posted By: mlsq42 (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 04:10 AM
That lady with Todd Pentingill on WWF Mania was named Stephanie something, Marissa didn't show up until about 3-4 years later on the Live Wire show, another Sat. morning show on USA!
Posted By: Al Hammer (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 04:59 AM
As far as title changes, I remember reading in Kurt Angles book that he found out the night of the PPV (sorry can remember which one exactly) that the Rock told him, "hey your getting the strap" which led to his first title win.
Posted By: Jason Jukes (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 06:08 AM
The most famous mid-match change (albeit one never offically confirmed) is Mind Games 96, Mankind V Michaels, WWF Title. The match ending makes a lot more sense if you put Mankind over for the title, plus given Vince's talking to everyone mid-match...
Posted By: Mathew Sforcina (Registered) on October 08, 2008 at 06:34 AM
The match that turned ME into a fan of wrestling (when previously I thought it was moronic that people actually liked a "fake sport") was Test vs. Shane McMahon from SummerSlam 1999. With that match, you can go into it knowing only the basics: Shane isn't a wrestler, but hates Test cos he's dating Stephanie. Also throw in that Shane has backup while Test doesn't and the story plays itself out.
I literally knew that much when I first watched it, and by the end of the match I was literally jumping in my chair, screaming for joy when Test hit that big top rope elbow. It was magnificent.
Posted By: Fierro (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 06:43 AM
In response to your comments about which match to show someone who doesn't like wrestling to help/make/persuade them to get into it, i totally disagree with your opinion of not showing them an indy match.
I very recently showed my gf, who isnt the biggest fan of wrestling, El Generico vs Pac from PWG's All-Star Weekend and she LOVED it and is now a passionate follower of the wrestling scene.
Posted By: The Shanal (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 06:52 AM
Re: Match changes - Not sure if this counts because it was done so blatantly but the Jarrett/Hogan incident at BatB 2000 is a good example of the outcome being changed at the last minute.. I think... bloody work shoots...
Posted By: Bored Weegie (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 07:07 AM
"A match to show your friend...I would agree with Rock-Austin from WrestleMania X-7 or any of the Flair-Steamboat '89 trilogy. "
Oh come on. I've been a wrestling fan for 16 years, and when I finally saw Flair/Steamboat I was bored numb. What chance has a non-wrestling fan got of appreciating that. I'd say better to go with a match with a flashy style - Rey or AJ, then build up to the awesome of Austin/Rock.
I believe that Mankind was intended to win the WWF title at Mind Games, but Vince changed his mind mid-match.
And the Rock first used "If you smell what I'm cooking" in an interview with Gennifer Flowers at Wrestlemania 14.
Posted By: Mr Quimby's Berad (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 07:43 AM
Killings debuted in the WWF from October 2000 not in 2001
According to "the mania of wrestlemania" The Rock told Austin Thank you after the WMXIX match.
Vince Called an audible at Mind Games to change the outcome of Mankind/HBK
Posted By: Eagle (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 08:23 AM
Funniest comedy promo: Rock, Booker and Goldust backstage at KOTR 2002. Rock and Booker reel off intricate rhyming descriptions of how awesome they are, punctuated by Goldust's feeeble two-line attempt and a sheepish "....I'm no good at this."
Posted By: Ian (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 08:25 AM
A match to show your friend? I'd go with Angle/Benoit v Rey/Edge from No Mercy 2002. It won match of the year, has four of the best in the business, and two of them are still in WWE.
As for the first Rock question, can we have a more definite answer please? Apreciate the work you put in but 'all around the same time' doesnt really begin to answer the question.
Thanks
Posted By: Pure Dynamite (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 08:29 AM
I'd show a couple different matches, you can't really just watch ONE match. I'd say tell your friend to watch 3 matches then decide (and yes i would show them at least 1 gimmick match).
For just a great match I'd go with either Savage/Steamboat or Rock/Austin.
For a gimmick match I'd show them either Taker/Foley HIAC or one of the TLC matches between E&C/Dudz/Hardyz.
For just plain fun I'd show them some of Santino's comedy bits or possibly a couple episodes of the Dirt Sheet.
Posted By: M:-X (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 08:38 AM
k-kwick was brought in at the tail end of 2000. he teamed with roadogg in a fatal 4 way tag title match at Armageddon 2000.
Posted By: john kelly (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 08:55 AM
i would say show your friend the TLC match from WM 17. for someone who isnt big on rasslin a crazy spotfest like that will be perfect
Posted By: robb (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 09:00 AM
you were bored numb because you'd been a fan for 16 years and then finally got around to seeing Savage-Steamboat...its because that match was the trailblazer and everyone since then has been trying to emulate it.
Its like saying, "I love all these horror movies of today, but I don't know why they always hype the shit out of Evil Dead and Texas Chainsaw!"
Posted By: Luthor (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 09:04 AM
Steve Austin stated in the documentary "The Mania of WrestleMania" that after their match at WM 19, The Rock told him he loved him and Steve responded in kind.
Posted By: Matt (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 12:30 AM
I watched the docmentary a few days ago - Rock said it was something only for Austin's ears, Austin said it was them telling each they loved each other.
Posted By: Gothekain (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 09:59 AM
For best comedic promo, I would submit D-Generation X's 1998 parody of the Nation. Sure, it was kind of a takeoff on the nWo's stellar Four Horsemen parody, but it seems like the years have been kinder to D-X's version.
That K-Kwik's WWF debut came just a few months before the beginning of the Invasion is likely one of the reasons why he never really took off during his first run, but his push had come to a halt long before then. If I recall correctly, he was initially brought in as a tag team partner for Road Dogg so they could do a "two rappers" gimmick, but Road Dogg got fired for drug problems maybe two months into that angle and K-Kwik was just left to muddle around the midcard. The plan was probably to start K-Kwik out as a tag guy and have him work his way up to singles, but when the singles push came suddenly and much earlier than expected, he got lost in the shuffle.
Posted By: G. Jonah Jameson (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 10:13 AM
Creepy Old Young Man - SURE, you have a friend that wants to know everything about the Rock. Just like I have a friend who caught an STD from a hemaphrodite!
Good first match for a wrestling virgin? Rock/Stone Cold at WM19 or even Rock/Hogan (the crowd makes the match) would be good. And I'm sure that the Creepy Old Young Man's "friend" wouldn't mind watching those also.
Posted By: Angry Bear (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 10:27 AM
The ref (Hebner) in the Rock/Austin match didnt hear anything cause Rocky pushed him away before he talked to Austin.
Posted By: Jimbo (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 10:30 AM
BTW, Batista won his feud against Taker. Batista has 2 wins: Cyber Sunday and Survivor Series. Taker has one: Wrestlemania 23. They have two ties: Backlash and cage match on smackdown.
Posted By: JB (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 10:47 AM
another famous example for changes during the match: the fatal fourway at IYH: Final Four in 1997. Austin was supposed to win the belt (and drop it one day later) but got injured, so they gave the win to Bret Hart (which, in retrospect was the best thing that could happen because it made Austins win at WrestleMania XIV mean much more).
Posted By: guy incognito (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 11:06 AM
I might be mistaken, but I believe mark jindrak is wrestling in CMLL in mexico as marco corleone
Posted By: tex-mex (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 11:11 AM
Opinion questions suck.
The only opinion that is right is mine so stop with the opinion questions.
That's just my opinion. I could be wrong but I ain't.
Posted By: Opinionated (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 11:24 AM
I remember showing someone the Royal Rumble 2000 match between Foley & Triple HHH and she went from "It's all fake" to "how can you watch that, it's barbaric" in just over half an hour
Posted By: Liam (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 11:34 AM
I think the 4 way match for the first X divison title is a good one to start people on (Juvi-AJ-Lynn-Low Ki). only reason i catch TNA once and awhile, since they may be able to recreate what I first saw back in summer '02
Posted By: Guest#7743 (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 11:45 AM
Regal/Beniot at the Pillman show, Savage/Steamboat WMIII, and Pat O'Connor/Buddy Rogers NWA World Championship match. Nothing with the Undertaker because he doesn't know the difference between a wrist lock and a wrist watch.
Posted By: Coreyoni (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 11:47 AM
If I had only one match to show someone to turn them into a wrestling fan..I would probably go with Shawn Michaels/Diesel from IYH:Good Friends, Better Enemies. The story is simple (big guy vs. little guy) and it has a great realistic edge to it.
Posted By: Matte (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 12:16 PM
Best match to show someone is Angle vs. Shane McMahon from KOTR 2001. I've hooked a few fans with that before, gimmick match or not.
Posted By: BK (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 12:33 PM
Ian, I completely agree about the KOTR 02 promo w/ Rock, Book, & Goldust. That promo had me on the floor laughing. And throughout it, you could tell Book was trying his best not to laugh.
And to get a friend into a wrestling, I'd probably go w/ Rey/Angle/Orton. It was pretty short, but there was a bunch of action, and IMO, pretty exciting. For a gimmick match, I'd go w/ TLCII.
Posted By: Bobby (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 12:38 PM
I'd also like to voice disagreement that a match to show a sceptic couldn't be an indy match. After all, the WWE is what most people think of when they think of wrestling, and therefore it's the WWE they are sceptical of. Showing them the alternative might very well work in that case. Plus sometimes the bright lights and over the top presentation can put people off as much as attract them. I tend to show people Japanese matches, which works well because you get the best of both worlds in a way and show them that wrestling isn't just a silly North American phenomonen, but a popular worldwide artform.
Posted By: Sean McCabe (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 12:50 PM
WrestleMania the Movie shows what The Rock said to Austin after their match at WM19
Posted By: lleyln (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 12:56 PM
Show him Chono vs Mike Awesome from ECW one night stand. Show him Michaels vs Flair from Wrestlemania. Show him Goldberg vs Hogan from Nitro.
Posted By: Chris (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 01:05 PM
Best match to show someone, to get them in to wrestling..
Brock Lesnar Vs Undertaker,
Hell in a cell - No Mercy 2002.
I don't read about this match a lot when people talk about HIAC and i think its a very under valued match.
Posted By: DumDum (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 01:07 PM
do wrestlers know the outcome of their matches leading up to the PPV, like when they're going through the storyline and doing promos? Or do they find out the night of the event, or even right before they walk through the curtain.
Here's a convoluted one:
Mick Foley says he found out about his first title win the night he showed up at the arena. It was a taped show so the decision could not be changed at the last moment.
So over on WCW Schiavone said that "...We understand that Mick Foley, who used to wrestle here as Cactus Jack, is gonna win their world title. Ho! That's gonna put some butts in the seats! Heh!"
They wouldn't have changed it if they could've; something like 500,000 homes immediately changed the channel.
Posted By: Ryan (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 01:09 PM
how about foley and orton from Backlash 04 as a introduction to wrestling? Still the best post retirement match from TNA's Mick (that is, until Mick vs Nash at BFG 11)
Posted By: captaing3000 (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 01:11 PM
Lawler has also beaten Sting and the Ultimate Warrior when they were a tag team (before they were Sting and the UW). He has probably also beaten the Rock, Kurt Angle, Mick Foley, and anyone else who has spent anytime in Memphis. The Rock has called Flex Cabana and Kurt was just Kurt. Lawler also defeated Curt Henning and had about a milllion Dusty finishes with Nick Bockwinkle.
Posted By: Guest#5511 (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 01:25 PM
I can think of a bunch of matches to show to a non fan to show them just how great wrestling can be. The match where Kobashi beat misawa for the GHC heavywheight belt can't remember the exact date, Joe vs AJ vs Daniels from unbreakable area couple that spring to mind but steamboat vs savage and bret vs owen are great suggestions to show to non fans if their curious
Posted By: britishfan1 (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 01:25 PM
One famous example would be the time leading up to WrestleMania XX, when Rey, Kurt Angle and Orton were all rumoured to be winning at various times and the decision was allegedly made right before the match started.
---------------------------------
Another Vince "win" over the Internet was prior to WMXIX. Kurt Angle's neck was a disaster and the big rumor circulating was that he wouldn't be able to go to WM. This set up a Brock Lesnar-Angle match on Smackdown a few weeks before the PPV. Every dirt sheet, Internet site, and message board indicated that this was to transition the title over to Brock before coming up with a new WM opponent while Angle heals.
But when they taped Smackdown, Angle shocked everyone with a quick, sneaky pin of Lesnar, retaining his title, and moving onto the scheduled main event at WM that went off nicely. And ironically, Angle left the match with no further injuries while Lesnar suffered a horrific concussion off a botched shooting star press.
Regarding one match for newbies? My all-time favorite match and an underrated classic - Diesel/HBK vs. Razor/Kid for the WWF tag titles on an episode of Action Zone from 1994. Classic back & forth action with minimal restholds and tons of drama. It was also the 2nd step in the eventual HBK-Diesel breakup (HBK accidentally superkicked Diesel which knocked him out of the match for several minutes). The match also shows how real-life good friends can perform well in the ring together and is a great example of multiple styles blending - the overpowering big man (Diesel), the calculating technician (HBK), the skilled power wrestler (Razor), and the plucky underdog (Kid). Great stuff that doesn't get as much attention as it deserves.
Posted By: Jason S (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 01:48 PM
Ken Shamrock didn't do anything wrong really. JR called the Undertaker Mark a few times. They were trying to push us to believe that he really believed he was The Undertaker and thats why everyone was so scared in the f.
Posted By: WhiteRoom (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 01:59 PM
K Kwik was brought up in 2000, nowhere near the Invasion.
Posted By: Guest#1578 (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 02:52 PM
The Hollywood rock promo via satellite from his movie where he disses the HULKSTER. That is the best comedy I've seen in a while. Watching Rock rush Hulk through his catchphrases because he is too busy is the best.
Posted By: seandroid (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 02:53 PM
One match change (that I think is pretty wide acknowledged) that happened mid-match was New Age Outlaws vs Eddie & Saturn. It was the night of the in-ring debuts for The Radicals (Benoit, Eddie, Saturn, Malenko) and Eddie and Saturn were supposed to go over. However, Eddie called an audible because he hurt himself after his frogsplash, so he got pinned.
It was the night of a three-match showdown between DX and the Radicals, with the Radicals getting WWF contracts if they won. Malenko had already lost (I believe to X-Pac). Rumor was The tag match was supposed to even the score at 1 apiece and Benoit was supposed to go over HHH in the tiebreaker. Instead, NAO won and HHH made it a clean sweep, which led to a rushed heel turn for all the Radicals on the next RAW.
Posted By: HBK's Smile (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 02:58 PM
wm 2000 hardcore holly won a hardcore match against a # of other superstars when he covered someone and time ran out it was a timed match he was not supposed to win you can check it out at wrestlinggonewrong.com
Posted By: hbky2j4life (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 03:15 PM
Match to show a sceptic?
Hart - Austin WM Submission match?
One of the Dudleys/Hardys/E+C TLC matches?
Posted By: Jan B (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 03:31 PM
Anyway, Goldberg told Nash to take liberties with Jericho.
---------------------------------------
And I hear tell that Nash was trying to "help" Goldberg by giving him false advice about how to be a better wreslter.
Posted By: Chico (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 03:38 PM
When referencing the TAG TITLE belt with Perfect and Heenan . . I think it was when Perfect defeated Tito Santana in the IC title finals. They used a tag belt for that match.
Posted By: Big Todd (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 04:22 PM
There are quite a few choices for funniest promo, but I will just mention that I remember loving DX impersonating the Nation. "All this talk about sphincters is putting me in the zone!"
And for what match to show a non-fan I pick the AJ/Joe/Daniels match that main evented Unbreakable '05. I recently had 2 friends over - One of who grew up watching all wrestling, bailed out on WWF during the Attitude Era & was strictly a WCW fan from then on, until he started watching & loving TNA a year ago. The other one watched some WWF 20 years ago when he was a kid. Anyway, I showed them that match, and they both were blown away & loved it.
Posted By: matrix1004 (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 04:47 PM
why wouldn't you show a crazy gimmick match? most non fans I know always enjoy ladder matches or good hardcore matches and do NOT enjoy technical masterpieces that us superfans consider classics. Skeptics don't care if its Khali vs. Big Show or Kurt Angle vs. Eddy Guerrero, it still looks fake to them.
Posted By: hobu (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 04:57 PM
Gangrel was trying to lure Edge into the brood at first. When he couldnt he brought in Egde's "brother" Christian, who had joined the Gangrel without Edge's knowledge.
Posted By: bigal6a (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 05:11 PM
More background re: Shamrock & "Mark" - during the somewhat more realistic "attitude" era they switched from Undertaker being a zombie with magical powers to him just being a wrestler who started to "believe the gimmick was real". I think JR was the first to start talking about how "Mark Calloway" was starting to believe he WAS the Undertaker. This was when the Ministry was really getting going and they were leading into the Austin crucifixion/ Stephanie black wedding stuff, but still connecting it somehow to a sort-of believable reality that wasn't just for kids. Also, it allowed Russo to get his "insider" fix, too.
Matches for non-fans - how about Kurt/HBK WM XXI? HIAC Foley/Taker?
I would suggest that the Rock's heel work in 2002 is some of the funniest stuff I have ever seen in my life. Also, Edge and Christian doing kazoo duets of people's theme music ("Chris Benoit is here and he's really mad. Chris Benoit is here and he's really angREEEE!"), Kurt Angle "I'm a man who likes to play with boys ... hey, wait ...", Kurt/Austin "I think you're a complete jackass!" "I'm not a jackass, I'm a hero!" "Jackass!" "Hero!" "Jackass!" or anything from that period between the two of them ("Jimmy crack corn and I don't caaaaaaaaare - I've got Olympic gold"), or Kurt's rap-off with John Cena - "My name is Kurt Angle, and what the heck/ I won a gold medal with a BROKEN FREAKIN' NECK!"
Posted By: BOOM (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 05:11 PM
Funniest promo. I'd have to nominate The Rock's Billy Gunn talking to God promo.
Posted By: Guest#1646 (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 05:33 PM
Best Match to get someone interesting in wrestling...
I'd take a whole different approach. My Wife hated that I watched Raw EVERY Monday night and could barely believe that I'd watched Raw for almost 15 years on almost every Monday night. Then I had her sit down with me and watch the show as I explained what the guys were actually doing. When a woman's match came on I got to show her all the screw ups that the woman were doing. (Not that I'm saying all womans matches are bad, just on this Raw it was a really bad match.) When you realize how hard it is for both wrestlers to work together to give you an OK RAW match, you can really start to appreciate how much harder it is to get a 4-5 star PPV match. Wrestling for me was always about the Art of Wrestling and how some people like HBK just get it, the story telling when to do certain spots and when not to etc. That's what makes wrestling to me entertaining. Now my Wife watches Raw with me every week. Even my son knows most of the wrestlers names now, even from TNA.
Posted By: ermacpd (Registered) on October 08, 2008 at 06:31 PM
You didn't really illustrate why titles change hands less frequently today at house shows. You mentioned money but forgot to point out that they changed hands frequently at house shows in the '80s and early '90s because no one was making money off their TV shows then. The TV show was simply a reason to get people to go to the live shows, the gate being wrestling's lifeblood, or PPVs, which were just starting to become a cash cow. That changed in the late '90s when networks started fighting over who would air WWE programming (WCW being locked into Time Warner). They'd pay Vince a lot of money for his shows because WWE programming provided high ratings that would draw in ad revenue for the network. Today, WWE gets little to no ad revenue, with USA getting most of it for RAW. I'm not sure on their MyNetworkTV deal, so I can't speak about that. But that's why titles change hands more frequently on TV than at house shows or PPVs now. If WWE's ratings are up, the network is happy because it can charge higher rates for ad space and Vince can charge more for the rights to airing WWE programming. So money is a consideration but you were vague in your reasoning.
Posted By: Guest#0999 (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 06:33 PM
1.Back in 2005,Trish Stratus was kidnapped by melina and in the R's larry put it in ridiculous.But i dissagree because nothing that hot is ridiculous.What do you think about it?
2.What do you think Wrestlemania 25's two world championship matches will be and who do you think will win them?
Posted By: jonah (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 06:50 PM
What about the Royal Rumble match from 2005 where Batista and John Cena were the final entrants and went over the top rope at the same time and Vince McMahon came down looking pissed and blew out his quads? I heard they couldn't decide on the winner until Vince came down.
The Sting/Hogan match from Starcade 97 was strange since it seemed that Nick Patrick/Hogan conspired to at least alter something without Sting knowing.
Usually a match is changed to at least end early (if not neccessarilly change a title) due to someone getting injured during it (Austin/Owen Hart from Summerslam 97, HHH/Orton from this years One Night Stand).
Didn't Elijah Burke announce that he was in a car accident and was recovering from injuries? That would explain his disappearence.
Posted By: JLAJRC (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 07:00 PM
My "Best Comedic Promo" award goes to...
The Rock - for his promo including Billy Gunn's prayer (narrowly beating out another Rocky promo where he couldn't quite get his catchphrase straight after mocking then-WCW employees Hogan, Flair, Savage, and Bret Hart). Just about any interaction between Edge, Christian, and Foley could make a short list of top candidates. Kurt Angle's confrontation/rap battle with heel Cena was pretty awesome, too.
My "Best Matches To Get Someone Interested In Pro Wrestling" award goes to...
Speed Muscle vs. Motor City Machine Guns
-or-
HBK vs. Shelton Benjamin Gold Rush tournament match
Posted By: Reichou (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 07:11 PM
Funniest promo in my opinion was when Stone Cold was the alliance leader, and run down Raven, Hugh Morrus and Tazz, and first started using the 'WHAT' catchphrase.
Posted By: R9 (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 07:26 PM
The Rock first said "Finally, The Rock... has come back to..." at a house show in Fort Wayne, Indiana, the night after a RAW right before he turned face after his long run as corporate champ. By the way, he lost that match by DQ to Big Show when Test ran in and hit TBS with a chair.
Posted By: Rob (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 07:31 PM
i was at the fall brawl in winston salem as it is my hometown......wcw did fall brawl two years in a row their, jercho was hilarious!!!!! and the year horsemen took on nwo was great, beniot looked like a million bucks, the best match in those two years was raven vs. saturn with the flock on the line, im pretty sure saturn dvd raven through a table on the floor, that match was crazy
Posted By: d (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 07:43 PM
As far as wrestlers "going into business for themselves" (or not going along with a planned finish), this was mostly something that happened in the past, in territory days, where getting fired didn't really mean your career was finished.
Its hard to come up with examples because promoters would just deal with what happened in the ring.
There were a large number of guys promoters feared wouldn't "do business" like Bruiser Brody, Andre the Giant, The Shiek, Stan Hanson, Bad News Brown/Allan, Haku/Meng. But in general these were all guys that relied on their word and wouldn't normally betray a promoter.
Most famous example I can think of is Bruiser Brody vs Lex Luger in a cage match. Bruiser decided during the course of the match that Lex was a talentless schmuck and started shooting on him causing Luger to bail out of the cage and escape to the locker room (and once in the locker room he grabbed his bags and actually fled the arena before Brody got to the back)
The most recent examples I can think of of wrestlers "going into business for themselves" are:
Regal deciding to stretch out Goldberg before taking his spear (though I am sure Regal would have been delighted if Bill had tapped out), which cost him his job in WCW
Bob Holly trying to stonewall Brock Lesner which got him dropped on his head by an exasperated Brock which put him on the shelf for a bit.
Posted By: Carnation (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 07:46 PM
Jerry Lawler defeated Hulk Hogan by DQ, due to Jimmy Hart interference, in February 1981. This was the match where Lawler made a famous entrance where he rides a white horse to the ring while the Rocky theme is playing.
Lawler defeated Andre the Giant by countout sometime in the mid-1970's when Nick Gulas was the guy running the territory.
An urban myth, not sure if it was proven true, has it that when the WWF was rising to a national (and international) scale in the 1980's that one of the popular wrestling magazine's had a photo of Jerry Lawler with his foot on top of Andre's in victory. Vince, feeling that it was Lawler and his crew in Memphis that sent this photo in, saw this photo and was very pissed at Lawler. Again, not sure if this was true or not. Makes a nice urban myth.
Lawler holds a countout win over Flair in an impromptu match back in the 1980's. It had an awesome pre-match angle of Lawler manipulating Flair into putting the NWA World Title on the line with his aww-shucks sarcastic attitude of "I'm only local star and it would be such a great honor to wrestle a worldwide star like you. I don't know if I could beat you, but I would like to try. If you put the NWA World Title on the line against me right now, then just telling people I got to wrestle the great Ric Flair for the World Title will be the highlight of my career." Something to that effect.
Lawler vs. Terry Funk from 1981, with the famous Empty Arena match, was one of the best feuds ever.
Posted By: Ryan Mancuso (Registered) on October 08, 2008 at 07:52 PM
i converted a non-rasslin fan into a very interested fan with Hollywood Hulk Hogan vs Macho Man Randy Savage from Halloween Havoc '96... that match was full of shenanigans that any human being would find hughmorrus, particularly the wig spot.
Posted By: mikes (Guest) on October 08, 2008 at 07:53 PM
Ryan Mancuso is correct in his post, here are some details regarding the match. The year was 1975 and Jerry Lawler got Andre out of the ring somehow during a match and Andre was not able to answer the 10 count. Apparently, this was the beginning of a funny story about how "Andre the Giant lost to a midget".
I knew I remembered something about that, being that Andre is my favorite wrestler of all time! I did some web searching and confirmed the information on imdb.com. It is under the biography section for Andre. That is the only instance I could find or remember of Andre and Jerry Lawler facing each other.
Posted By: AndreFan (Registered) on October 08, 2008 at 10:31 PM
The situation with Lawler and WCCW was quite complicated, and it's not exactly consistent with the answer listed above.
Lawler, as AWA champion, defeated Von Erich for the WCCW (for a second time) at the SuperClash 3 PPV. This was SUPPOSED to kick off a solid relationship between Memphis, the AWA, and World Class, with all three groups recognizing Lawler as the unified (or double) World Champion.
Within weeks, Lawler had a falling out with AWA owner Verne Gagne, primarily because hardly anyone received any money from the PPV. The AWA removed itself from the cooperation, and Lawler was stripped of the AWA Title (though it appears that he kept the physical belt.) The AWA continued with Larry Zbyszko as theor champion for most of 1989.
Meanwhile, World Class was just about bankrupt, so Jerry Jarrett (and possibly Lawler too) bought it out from the Von Erichs. Even though both Memphis and Texas were covered by Lawler/Jarrett promotions, some of the stars (Lawler, Jeff Jarrett, Kerry Von Erich) wrestled in both areas, while other guys stayed in one area.
It was eventually decided that both areas should be identified by a single name, the USWA. The double world championship won by Lawler became known as the USWA Unified World Title. In August, they even ran an angle in Dallas, by which babyface Eric Embry, representing the USWA, "saved" Texas wrestling from being taken over by heel manager Skandar Akbar, who had supposedly "bought" World Class Wrestling.
In 1990, Lawler/Jarrett stopped running shows in Texas, and they focused entirely on Memphis. The Von Erichs sporadically ran various shows in and around Dallas for several years afterward.
Posted By: HMFiles (Guest) on October 09, 2008 at 11:00 AM
"There was also a thought that Edge and Christian were going to be huge, and would be better off getting out from under Gangrel's shadow."
see, they do get it right sometimes
Posted By: disciple of MATTitude (Registered) on October 10, 2008 at 10:18 AM
also, as i remember, i think vince cut a promo during the ministry days where he called the undertaker 'Mark' after he'd abducted Steph. something along the lines of he was addressing Mark the man and thast he'd gone too far into his undertaker 'character'
Posted By: disciple of MATTitude (Registered) on October 10, 2008 at 10:20 AM
First time champs that are booked to look weak are done so for a purpose. A lot of times it's their breakthrough into the upper tier. They have worked their way up the roster and finally win the big title. When they win the title a second time they are considered more valid because they are "former champions".
I believe they gave C.M. Punk the title too soon. They did it though because he was "Straight Edge". They had just gone through the Benoit saga, the wrestlers being named in Sports Illustrated for getting steroids and Hardy doing his usual. They needed someone that could get out there and present a positive image to the public. Every town he went to he did interviews with the local newspaper or went on the radio programs and let everyone know he doesn't do drugs, does't drink, doesn't smoke. He did it as the WWE Champion. He was what the WWE needed at the time. I sure hope he realized what they were doing and made them pay him a little extra.
Posted By: Ghost of Marlon Brando (Guest) on October 10, 2008 at 12:07 PM
I'm not going to sit here and sift through all these comments, but in response to anybody mentioning the long rumoured Luger gaffe that led to a quick world title scene change at Wrestlemania X, Bret's book has it that Bret was supposed to leave with the gold all along.
Posted By: Michael O (Registered) on October 10, 2008 at 08:35 PM
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