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Five Star Conversation 11.11.08: TNA = FOCUS…?
Posted by Geoff Eubanks on 11.11.2008



THIS IS GOING TO BE POLITICAL, SO IF YOU'RE HERE JUST FOR THE WRESTLING, DO US BOTH A FAVOR & SKIP IT! It seems like a much longer time to me than just a week since Election Day. I'm not going to harp on the outcome, although if you're not happy, it's your own fault, you fascist. Seriously, though, McCain's speech as he conceded to Obama was fantastically classy and actually received more-than-just-polite applause from those of us watching the returns at The Abbey (where else?!),and only was jeered when he mentioned his running mate, which were, too, well-earned. Of course, those of us who were/are opponents of "Prop Hate", as we call it (the same-sex marriage bill), are all extremely displeased that discrimination is going to be written into the state constitution, especially as tens of millions of dollars were pumped into the proliferation of the measure by the Mormons, the common argument being, "You've got your five spouses, why can't I have my ONE?"

What many don't seem to realize on this subject is that it's a basic human rights issue and such issues in the past have never been easy or brief, plus, women ended up getting the right to vote, blacks ended up getting the right to be, well, President, if you wanna go that far with it, gays will be allowed the right to marry eventually, too. Such activists need to allow their cooler head to prevail and be intelligent and strategic; quite frankly, I'm of the opinion that making this an issue in the LAST election contributed greatly to Kerry's loss, but that's all just my opinion. We've got rasslin to discuss, so let's get this donkey show on the road…your referee…Bronco Lubich!



THOUGHT OF THE WEEK: RESPECK!!!


TNA HOUSE SHOW WRAP-UP
Okay, I posted all the video I took from The TNA house show I attended. Here's an interesting observation; the video that, in three days, has received the most views, is the one featuring New Japan star Hiroshi Tanahashi at 55 views! Other top views feature the two I posted of Awesome Kong at 44 and 42, and the "international double team" at 33, also featuring Tanahashi. Am I, then, not the only one who thinks this guy's the shit? Likewise, bottoming out in the views department is the Curry Man dance party at 9 views, LAX defeating Curry Man with 8 views, TEAM 3D's and Eric Young's entrances at 5 views a piece and Samoa Joe's entrance at a paltry 3 views. Quite frankly, I'm surprised these videos were getting any views at all, since my only real purpose in having posted them is so I could share them with you folks in accordance with last week's report, as well as to give you a little buzz hangover from what was, by many accounts, a superb PPV last Sunday.

BTW, I need to make a correction from my report last week; LAX did NOT go over PJB via The Border Toss, but rather with a tandem move which was a combination of THE ROAD WARRIORS' Devastation Device and DEMOLITION's finisher, as you'll see in the video.




























WHAT IS THIS NEW TNA WE'RE SEEING…?!
It was just three weeks ago when TNA appeared to seamlessly hit the reset button, combining a live remote broadcast of iMPACT! with the show's premiere High-Definition status. That show, while not perfect, the franchise displaying how difficult can be a live broadcast to produce when its throw-away opener ran long, forcing a highly-hyped X-Division Title defense by Sheik Abdul Bashir to be neutered to an embarrassing 2:00 affair, also unveiled one of the hottest new commodities in the industry, THE MAIN EVENT MAFIA.

The battle lines have been more completely drawn in the war between MEM and THE TNA ORIGINALS, and, already, what we've seen in Dixieland beats the HELL out of what we saw involving THE ECW ORIGINALS and THE NEW BREED a couple years ago on WWECW (although that's no fault of the talent involved on either side of that fence). For my money, this has the slow-burn quality of the nWo when it was first coming together, in the vein of, "Who's next to join?" before it became a bloated game of hunting-and-collecting for Eric Bischoff.

I was thoroughly content with the quartet of Kurt Angle, Sting, Booker T and Kevin Nash, but the addition of Scott Steiner two weeks ago makes perfect sense and actually fits into the puzzle quite well. As a matter of fact, it strikes me that it's just the quality of no-nonsense and absolutely denigrating promo that Freakzilla laid down against THE ORIGINALS that it would behoove MEM to consistently offer, especially in Angle and Booker are being just a touch too haughty and above-it-all to really amp the adversarial portion of their mission statement. The air of the unveiling, that backstage promo that started it all, should always prevail, because they DO believe they're better than the youngsters as a consequence of their pedigree, but, as more of the kids stand up to take their place in the promotion and the industry as a whole, MEM need to get angrier and more driven, more personally offended that they aren't being simply GIVEN the RESPECK! to which they feel entitled, outraged that the "little punks" aren't simply going to hand it over to them.

Aside from Steiner, the other most effective promo I think we've seen thus far was from Sting, as he confronted AJ Styles, who stood in the ring with Majority TNA Share-holder, Mick Foley last Thursday. What impressed me the most about Sting is that, although he's the one in MEM who's denomination changed the most, he appears to be the one whose philosophy has changed the least. He's really taken to heart the #1 heel rule that a "bad guy" is anything but such in his own mind, that his reasoning and philosophy are in perfect justification. Having been very private and keeping his cards close to his chest for over a decade, Sting has finally come forward and proclaimed that he's always been about that for which he currently stands, he now just has a group of peers who finally came around to the manner in which he's behaved and believed. Think of MEM as an nWo concerned with acting like mature adults and not the cool kids on campus.

However, he further punctuated his speech by pointing the finger at Styles, drawing a parallel between the manner in which the TNA ORIGINALS are viewing their status in the business to Styles' personal life, his chaotic relationship with his father and warned of the influence his actions now may have later on "Little AJ", claiming, in a double-barrel statement, that the apple doesn't fall from the tree, implying Styles will become his father and that he's seeding that field with his own son, as well.

I'd not dig on this if Kurt Angle, in his quest to get TNA Founder, Jeff Jarrett back in the ring to face him once more time, hadn't brought up the possibility of what could happen if he (Angle) decided to pay Jarrett's daughters a visit while daddy's away. Obviously, that's the ploy I figured Creative would end up opting to utilize, especially since Jarrett's wife, Jill's, tragic passing a couple years ago, the Jarrett girls being all Jeff has left.

I'm excited for this entire story and, thus far, everything has gone extremely well, but, two weeks ago, I voiced trepidation toward how things would play out, given Head Writer Vince Russo's propensity for going well over-the-top, resolutely NEVER employing the notion that less successfully CAN be more. It is my absolute fear that this cheap family stuff could end up being the tug on that fated Jenga piece that brings down the whole structure. I favor Angle using Jarrett's daughters as a bargaining chip well over Sting bringing in his family.

Sting is the HWC and has MILES of back-up, which is pretty much how I think the basics of this whole program should play; first of all, do NOT put any of the main opposing performers on iMPACT! to face each other UNLESS it REALLY matters. This is a money angle and to "Goldberg/Hogan" this is NOT in TNA's best interest. Furthermore, display MEM repeatedly interfering in and costing their foes their matches (as we saw with Kevin Nash interfering and costing Samoa Joe his match against Steiner), which allows MEM ammunition to play as if "So-&-so can't even score a victory over so-&-so," which in the strictest, by-the-book terms is true, but we all know how and why it occurred, fuelling the fire all the more. If we proceed in this manner, Sting wouldn't NEED to drag his family into the issue. There's already pride on the line, in terms of the ongoing war, as well as the HWT, which, if Styles could bring back to TNA, would be a MAJOR coup. This is exactly what I mean by Russo not knowing when to leave well-enough alone.

The Christian Cage/Booker T situation remains a point of conjecture, as well. I've been hopeful-yet-dubious in this regard since the stipulation whereby, should Cage fail to dethrone Booker as the Legends Champion, which we saw occur at TURNING POINT on Sunday, he'd be obligated to join MEM. As thegun pointed out at the announcement, why does it make sense for MEM to want a "loser" to join their ranks, especially when he's the ONLY person in the franchise who's vowed "lone wolf" status? The only philosophy that makes sense to me is that MEM recognized cage as leaning toward THE ORIGINALS and, should push come to shove, he'd side in unofficial status with them and that was a way to keep their friends close and their enemies, even if potentially, closer.

(What strikes me as being closer to the truth in holistic fashion is that Cage's TNA was up in the air when this program kicked off, and this lone wolf gimmick, especially as an unwilling member of MEM, is quite easy to write out should he decide to leave TNA, which appears is going to happen as soon as next month. Picture Christian being forced to perform on the part of MEM, particularly clashing with Booker, MEM becoming increasingly upset with him, leading to a LT rematch, only this time, should Cage fail to defeat Booker for the belt, he's forced to leave, not just MEM, but TNA as well…?)

Taking a look at how the stable rosters at present, then, MEM is outnumbered 8-6, MEM comprised of Angle, Booker, Cage, Nash, Steiner and Sting, THE ORIGINALS made up of Consequences Creed, Jay Lethal, Joe, Styles, Williams, Young & MCMG. Considering the rumors circulating placing TEAM 3D in MEM soon, I can see Abyss & Matt Morgan taking the TTTs from BEER MONEY soon, which would be a great moment for them, which could be spoiled by 3D challenging them and taking the belts the next week, or manage to manipulate their way into a Three-Way Dance for the belts and walk out with them, only to have the fan adulation squelched by having MEM come out to congratulate them…? Take that to the end of the road for the program, whereby MCMGs finally get their due by dethroning the tag legends for the championships? Considering MCMGs attitude and reluctance to join THE ORIGINALS in the beginning, it wouldn't be tough to turn them soon after having won the TTTs if need be.

Elsewhere among THE ORIGINALS, we see traditional X-Divisioners the perpetual underdog Eric Young and Jay Lethal being given prominent status in this angle, as well as a hell of a jumping-off point for Creed and a new start for Petey Williams, who is a hell of a performer who's been somewhat lost since the dissolution of TEAM CANADA, which bodes VERY well toward the absolutely necessary rebuilding of the X-Division, when one of these guys can stand up and be the one to finally dethrone Bashir and be an American hero…hmm…is the answer in that statement…?

To wrap up the TNA war, it seems to me MEM will ultimately go down, with Jarrett finally returning to the ring to silence Angle; he may not be a youngster, but he's the founder and represents his company and the kids fighting for their place in it. Styles will defeat Sting to become the new face of the promotion and Joe will defeat both Nash and Steiner in a two-on-one match (I see a cage match at LOCKDOWN, the perfect themed PPV for such a massive showdown) to get the rub he needs to go on and "betray" Styles once he wins the HWT ("It's nothing personal, AJ; we fought the oldsters for the right to have our own stage, we earned that together, and now you have what I want."). Wanna bet Eric Young goes on to defeat Booker for the LT? I also have a sneaking suspicion, once Cage is removed from the equation as the wild card/lone wolf we could see Mick Foley betray THE ORIGINALS, as I just don't think Russo will be able to keep from swerving us somehow, or that could be where Angle goes once he loses to Jarrett to give TNA its ultimate victory.

Elsewhere in TNA, the tag scene is alive and well and is by FAR (not that it's really saying much) the BEST tag scene in the North American scene today. I've expressed my love for BEER MONEY in the past and LAX have become TNA mainstays. Abyss & Morgan are a curious pair I see being split sooner rather than later, although how exactly I can't say. MCMGs, as stated, are finally getting their due in the war angle, 3D are not never a force with which to be reckoned and have been super motivated lately, which bodes well for us all and THE PRINCE JUSTICE BROTHERHOOD are always fun…hmm…there's a component I missed; what if we see The Fallen Angel Christopher Daniels make a triumphant return to TNA to take up Cage's lone wolf role…?

The KnockOuts Division is once again rolling with Awesome Kong now back in the driver's seat as the champion, has back up in the form of her mouthpiece Raisha Saeed, to say nothing of her new alliance with the intimidating and gorgeous Rhaka Khan…talk about a force with which to be reckoned! It appears as if we'll see a program involving those three against former KOC, Taylor Wilde and newly-repackaged Roxxi, which could be fun, although, personally, I wonder how well we're going to see the faces fair against such overwhelming odds.

The main issues fans and critics alike have had with TNA is that the franchise has virtually always had an issue with promoting ALL of its title scenes appropriately simultaneously. If we accept that The XT is in a holding pattern until the war is over, whereby, hopefully, we'll have managed to give some faces some cred, swipe the belt from Bashir, upon whom we've built a grip of heat in the meantime, and it appears TNA is really on the right road, especially as the bulk of its roster is also being successfully utilized and the fact that, aside from that gaff on the live broadcast mentioned at the top of this analysis, Creative appears to be getting more comfortable properly pacing its two-hour format. More than ever, I think TNA could be about to turn that corner they've been looking to peek around for a while now.


AND YOU THOUGHT KURT SUCKED…
5. Ed Leslie.
This fucktard is better known as Brutus Beefcake, but I didn't just label him as such, simply because he ended up going to WCW, following his boyfriend Hulk Hogan (because, as a result of his abject talentlessness, couldn't maintain a job anywhere without Hulkster pulling for him), where held myriad names, such as Bruther Bruti, The Butcher, The Zodiac, The Bootyman (REALLY…?!) and The Disciple. Really, HOW BADLY do you have to SUCK if you're in miracle politicker Hogan's back pocket and STILL end up selling cocaine out of a turnpike toll booth?

One thing he did have in his favor, in terms of human rights, is that he was the first readily accepted and cheered gay character in professional wrestling. I mean, here's a guy who comes to the ring named Brutus Beefcake, a name over which even I am so embarrassed I can barely even utter it, announced as hailing from San Francisco, dressed in shredded, lavender and fishnet tights, whose entire goal is to put other men to sleep so he can cut their hair? Was I the ONLY one to catch on to this…?

His matches were embarrassingly bad and he, incidentally, was the KING of that whole pandering face bullshit I decried last week and for which I noted Tito Santana; Chico, at least, is a respectable human being, but Leslie is a talentless idiot who couldn't survive without Hogan's influence, as evidenced by the fact that one of his WCW gimmicks may as well have been Hogan's Little Lamb, cuz it went everywhere he did. Without him, he's having to admit to airport security, "Anthrax on my bags? HELL, no, that's COKE!" and pray that blow's been downgraded to the lesser of two evils.

4. Roddy Piper.
Another all blow/no go ‘80s loudmouth who couldn't wrestle a LICK. This guy influenced an entire generation that one needn't know, to quote the great Gorilla Monsoon, "a wristlock from a wristwatch" to headline WrestleMania as long as you're the most annoying and blatantly and unforgiving obnoxious prick you or anyone else knows, personally or otherwise. But, Geoff, someone's thinking, what about that incredible match he had with Bret Hart over the ICT at WrestleMania 8? The answer is in the question, my friend. I'm not saying he doesn't know psychology, sure he does…that was ALL he had, a fine pin-up example of the wrestling one-note and how far one guy can coast on it if people hate you just enough to want to see you get your ass kicked, and not so much, like me, that I couldn't stand to even allow into my home, such that your name, Roddy Piper, equals a TV-muting loaf-pincher of a segment.

3. The Honky-Tonk Man
The "fact" that piece of SHIT is errantly referred to as The Greatest InterContinental Champion of All Time makes me want to discredit every ICC since. Let's not mince facts, HTM is The Longest-Running ICC of all time, but that most CERTAINLY does NOT equate to Greatest.

Look, I admit this assclown was booked brilliantly. EVERY. SINGLE. SEGMENT. Went on for MONTHS until the crowd was BEGGING for ANYONE to stick that guitar (that he couldn't play, like Bono in the "With Or Without You" video) up his ass sideways, such that, anyone who even gave his cheating ass a solid run for his money got a rub, but really, as with Piper, there's a point of overkill which was grossly overstepped on myriad occasions.

On a personal note, I fucking HATE Elvis Presley. Sorry if that offends you. You're welcome to take a shot at The Cure if you like. I respect his place in the business, but I simply fail to understand it and most certainly think it's time to let the guy pass on to the great Hostess snack cake factory in the sky. And so, on a weekly basis, holding a coveted title that was supposed to have been the stepping stone to the HWT dominated by someone who impersonated Elvis AND a wrestler, and both in atrocious fashion, was mind-numbingly aggravating. The fact that after having held that title (HOSTAGE) for as long he did, he NEVER even had a PROGRAM against the HWC! And then, once every couple years, when he and his cousin Jerry Lawler aren't fighting over some 20 year-old issue or some piddly-shit little indie grievance, he gets trotted out on Raw so he can make a little cash to have his jumpsuit let out.

You know, it strikes me as I write this, that I've found yet another reason to respect Greg Valentine; for a second-generation WRESTLER who was just getting warmed up at the 20:00 mark, to have to tag with the likes of both Beefcake and then, a few years later, HTM (the latter in an idiotic gimmick suited to HTM and not the guy who was actually upholding the integrity of the team), says a hell of a lot about his ability to carry deadweight and how much he must LOVE the sport.

2. Goldberg.
This is a whole different kettle of fish. This slab of assfuck couldn't give two shits about the business he raped for millions, other than when he cashed his paychecks. He's wasn't as horrible a wrestler as he's discredited for being, but he was an absolute one-note in the ring, and, for the best part of his career, was the epitome of formulaic. What's more, he felt as if the business and all those involved in it were obligated to allow him to play ball in the manner in which HE chose, simply because he fucking SHOWED UP.

Now, I'm not one of these "pay your dues" hardliners, because I DO believe that if you're the right person at the right time and you've managed to refine your act more quickly than someone else who's been there twice as long, as long as you've got the goods to entertain on the stick AND get the job done in the ring, welcome to the uppercard, friend. It wasn't The Rock's fault he got his shit together quicker than Bob Holly. However, if that's the case, don't you think the person who gets it sooner than the rest owes even a modicum of courtesy to those who've been there longer and are putting you over? Not if you're the almighty Goldberg. The infamous "Chris Jericho" and "Triple H" incidents pretty well speak for themselves, especially when one considers Goldberg and HHH didn't even work for the same company and had never even MET!

Furthermore, Goldberg was manufactured by WCW from the word go. I guarantee you, if Vince worked the same thing with Kung Fu Naki starting this week, fans would eat it up. It wouldn't be RIGHT, but the sheep would LOVE it. Second, Bischoff was determined to push Goldberg to the top because it was self-vindication for having been IDIOT enough to have not just allowed Steve Austin to slip through his fingers, not to just admit that he had no idea what to do with just some wrestler who wanted to wear black boots and black trunks, but for actually FIRING the biggest draw in the history of the business. Do you think it was an accident that Goldberg had a bald head, a goatee, black trunks and black boots?

This guy is an abject asshole who does NOT respect the business and milked it for all he could get out of it, not once, but TWICE, and Vince should have known better. Goldberg, who should have respected that he was being brought in to WWE out of respect for HIM; but he had to play ball with someone who wouldn't LET him dictate the terms of his contract, who MADE him look as foolish on occasion as any other performer in that role would have. He didn't like it, he bailed like a little BITCH and has talked shit about WWE ever since, but we all know it wasn't because he was mishandled, it was because little Baby Bill didn't get his way, although I don't see why he's unhappy, he still got his check.

1. Hulk Hogan
Dear God, and speaking of milking the business. I'm convinced Vince intensified his work outs once he hired Hogan because, had he not, Hogan would have sucked those money-lactating pecs into a pair of little wizzleteets.

I hardly even know where to begin. I recall watching concurrently that fated match where Hogan was the surprise challenger for The Iron Sheik's HWT when Bob Backlund was still "too injured to compete" and it was electrifying. My brother and I were jumping around and cheering. I looked forward to seeing where things went with this bronze Adonis and where that championship would go while around his waist. It managed to go to the moon and into the toilet simultaneously.

You see, it wasn't long that I realized Hogan knew how to give, not just one match, but one program. Bring up some monster, each bigger and more insane than the last, set him up against greater and greater odds with the goal of the heel being to relieve Hogan of the HWT. Come the match, he'd start strong, the heel would cheat to gain the upper hand and begin to dole out an incredible amount of his patented, stunning offense to the end that he'd hit his finisher and everyone was convinced that HAD to be all…the hopes and dreams of the Hulkamaniacs would be dashed, already looking for the rematch when Hogan would regain…but WAIT! He kicked out! And he didn't just kick out, he's bug-eyed, (what remains of) his hair is sticking out at the ends, his breathing his ragged! His foe would rain down blows, none of them would vanquish Hogan! He's on his feet, walking around the ring, weathering the offense of his opponent! Finally, he turns to put an end to his nemesis' progress, stopping them in their tracks by pointing at them, "YOU!" A few punches, the big boot, bounce off the ropes, a legdrop and that was it.

For TWENTY YEARS, THAT WAS IT. By the time the first WrestleMania came around, I was OVER it. By the second I LOATHED him. His obnoxious self-aggrandizing, his shameless patronization of his "little Hulkamaniacs", the match after match after match after match after match after MATCH wear my willing suspension of disbelief wasn't just chipped away, it was MINED like I was FULL of the gold he WOULD NOT ALLOW ANYONE ELSE TO WEAR, my RIGHT as a fan to expect a SHRED of originality…and all because you fucking idiot Hulkamaniac SHEEP allowed it, fed it, nursed it with all the money you poured into that phenomenon.

Yes, it was ALL about money (which made me nauseous when he'd face Ted DiBiase, because even as a teenager, I knew the score and the fact that he was so much worse off behind the mask of Hulkamania than DiBiase's character EVER was) and it's a business and I understand and appreciate that. BUT, I offer this compromise to you, Maniacs: After a while Hogan transcended the title and it would NOT have hurt to have pried that belt from his slimy, greedy, overtanned hands to allow performers who would never have reached Hogan status, yet could and should have STILL benefitted from having been HWC, such as Curt Hennig, Rick Rude, Ted DiBiase, Ricky Steamboat, Jake Roberts (although…), Andre The Giant, given Randy Savage and The Undertaker more time at the top, too, while still having allowed Hogan the duel main event slot, even to close the show to tell his tired little story so all the little Maniacs who said their prayers, drank their milk and ate their vitamins a warm fuzzy as the show went off the air and still another incentive to buy still more Hogan merchandise.

The fact that he's as bad a person as I always figured he was when the cameras stopped rolling (oh, and let's not forget all the integrity he lent the business as an ambassador from wrestling to Hollywood when he did those RIDICULOUS movies, the prejudice of which WWE is STILL feeling today, and before you open your mouth to argue with me, I got TWO WORDS FOR YA: "Mister Nanny".), but was WORSE. If "that woman" who would've been Vice-President hires Hogan to plot her campaign in 2012, we could end up seeing our first black and female presidents back-to-back. Still again, here's someone who had to rely on his ability to bend promoters to his will because he was all charisma and manipulation. Even before he started staggering around the ring like Linda McMahon searching for a bowl of fresh brains, his matches were all the same because it's all he knows how to do and, even a DECADE ago required young(er) lions like The Rock and Shawn Michaels to keep the match from sucking ass and exposing the old fuck for the piece of shit he is and always has been.

I'm tired of giving energy to this schmuck. You're either pumping your fist in agreement or have already started your flame in the comments section. But you knew this was coming and that someone, somewhere, somehow was going to get roasted. At least give me credit for not having dragged his family into this, or even mentioning that The Hogans are in such turmoil because of the way he…ah, caught myself.


COMMENTPALOOZA!
I can respect that you don't like Lita. Amy "Lita" Dumas is my favorite woman in professional wrestling, as well as a damn good drinking buddy at her band's shows. I'm not gonna bitch about you not liking her, but I will say that she broke her neck while filming "Dark Angel" when the stunt double for Jessica Alba dropped Amy on her head during a head scissors. So when you say if she was more careful it wouldn't have happened, I'd just like to say it was greater forces that caused the break, not her carelessness. Aside from that, great column, keep up the good work!
Posted By: DJ (Guest)

my issue with bret was that his offence was rather dull in the latter stages of his career (his cards with undertaker and stone cold aside). it all got rather samey, spending almost all the match working over guys legs.

i know thats supposed to be good psychology and it does make sense since his finisher was the sharpshooter, but when he does it practically every sodding match it just bored me.

dont get me wrong, i still liked a lot of his matches with taker and austin as mentioned, and with owen, davey boy and 123 kid especially.
i always found owen a slightly better worker to be honest.

and geoff, i think youll find lita didnt break her neck in the ring as you implied. she actually broke it filming a guest appearance on dark angel.
Posted By: DaJ (Guest)

DJ
, you've no idea how much appreciate your kind, mature response, especially this week all things considered. I absolutely respect your allegiance to your drinking buddy. Many bonds have been formed over a grip of longnecks and I know my heart extends to those who've made time for me in a similar such fashion, so I completely understand and, as I said, respect your opinion.

As I stated in the Comments section, my absolute gratitude to DJ & DaJ for having corrected me on my massive oversight with respect to the origin of Lita's injury. I have no excuse other than having lumped her in with the rest of the performers who suffered a similar such fate at the same time, and that's all on my shoulders. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I love you guys for keeping me honest. However, I'll stand by my assertion that UPON RETURNING from such injury, she worked in a dangerous fashion. Extreme is one thing, but careless is another.

Further in DaJ's regard, because I'm SO rough on Bret in some respects, I feel as if I let him slide in others, which is human nature. I also allow a lot of leeway in his regard because the majority of heat I had for him stemmed from my blind markdom for Shawn Michaels back in the day, and, having later discovered what a dickweed HBK was at the time combined with the fact that Bret was actually playing a heel WELL and manipulating me to make me hate him, I turn down the burner in Bret's regard quite a bit now that I'm a little smarter.

However, the flip side to that coin is, when one sets one's self on such a high pedestal, it stands that a higher standard may be expected to prevail and Bret simply failed to deliver at this time on the platform upon which he made his name, that being The Excellence Of Execution. My excuse for Bret during this period is that he was working heel and a heel refrains from the flashy maneuvers and sequences that garner cheers. However, one need look only as far as Kurt Angle, to realize exactly how an exemplary performer can earn the disdain of the fans without sacrificing an ounce of superior athleticism in the process. We hate Angle because his pervasive attitude causes us to do so, but we respect and fear him as a foe because of his ability, intelligence, experience and resourcefulness in the ring. Hart seemed to abandon this notion.

The more dismal view realizes that Bret was only playing heel in AMERICA. To the rest of the world, even only so far north as his homeland of Canada, he was a MONSTER face, therefore, this entire notion of playing for heel or face goes out the window as far as I'm concerned. The contingent argument in this regard will suggest that he was simply going with the flow of the time, that being, following the method that helped to take Steve Austin to the top, after all, Austin was introduced to The WWF as The Ringmaster, a technical marvel, but came to popularity as a no-nonsense brawler. However, if Hart decided to change his style to keep up with the proverbial Jones', that speaks more to his paranoia of having been overshadowed by a younger talent than self-belief in his ability; remember New Coke…? If this isn't the case, though, then can we assume he was simply losing it?

I'm of the opinion that Bret's last great match was the submission match against Austin that stole WrestleMania 13 and ended in a double-turn (discounting the technical marvel against Chris Benoit at the Owen tribute show). Bottom line, if Hart was the end-all/be-all of technical showmanship, why was his HWT defense against The Patriot the absolute WORST WWF/E PPV main event of the past 20 years? It strikes me that Bret gets so snatchetty when the quality of his cumulative legacy is in question because he recognizes how subpar became his performances toward the end (punctuated by his footnote role in WCW) and what an ass he's made of himself since his forced retirement (over which he's understandably bitter) and yet doesn't have the temerity to admit that he's wrong. For his own peace of mind, it might do him well to recognize there's a way to admit his foolish and less-than-heroic actions WITHOUT vilifying the behavior/decisions of Michaels and/or McMahon.

I'm always impressed by house show reports. It's a shame that there are never any in my area! They almost always sound better than tapings.
Posted By: Davis (Guest)


Yeah, Davis, house shows really are great, because the performers really let it hang out and have a lot of fun. There's a quality of fan intervention for which TV doesn't allow. Specifically to this point was the 3D/B$ match. Both teams, it was plain, not only put on one of the best matches of the night, but were having a BLAST, and, you know, when the wrestlers are having fun and it's evident, it pumps the crowd all the more. I swear, it gave me the sense of what old school ECW shows must have been like, just that reciprocation of energy and appreciation…the harder the boys work, the more the fans cheer, the louder and more voracious the cheers, the harder the boys work to earn that adulation, and the cycle perpetuates.

Whether WWE or TNA, I say, do what you can, road trip to a house show if at all possible!

No Cena? No Batista? No KOFI KINGSTON?? Not even Honky Tonk Man? That bastard ended Steamboat's WWF hot streak for good, and was absolutely the most ABYSMAL wrestler of all time.
Posted By: chikaraking (Guest)


With regard to the Schlongky-Tonk Man, I hope you were pleased…you got ahead of me last week!

No, you will likely never see John Cena on any Most Hated list of mine. I, by no means, am a member of The Chain Gang, but I have a wealth of respect for the man John Cena appears to be a committed, hard-working franchise player who does whatever is asked of him and has earned the respect of his employers and peers. He's not the most gifted technical wrestler, but he has a gold mine of heart and has a solid mind for the business which gives him the ability to tell a hell of a story in the ring. His character doesn't speak to me, so you'll not find him on any Top Favorites list of mine, either, but I respect the hell out the man and always enjoy his matches.

Batista is a different story. It began when he just couldn't get it done and win the title from EITHER Edge or The Undertaker back on SD! and it continues (and actually intensifies) now on Raw. I will admit that I had NO hope whatsoever for Chris Jericho's chances of regaining the WT last Monday in the cage and actually had to clamp my hand over my mouth when I found myself screaming like a little girl when Y2J's feet hit the ground. The frustrating thing is that I just can't put my finger on exactly what it is that I find SO distasteful about Big Dave. Is it because he wouldn't be shit without his physique? Is it his somnambulistic promos? Is it that he's so high up the card with such a one-dimensional character? Maybe it's that the reverse of what I was supposed to feel with respect to his long road to regaining the title occurred, in that, instead of me WANTING to see him as champion, I ended up instead feeling that he doesn't deserve it? Is it that I'm hesitant to get behind someone I have a creeping feeling is one more muscle tear from retirement? Or maybe it's that he'll get his ass beat on for ten minutes and he'll sell it like he's being anally invaded by white-hot pokers only to get the word from the ref to go home, he "Hulks up", Spear, Spinebuster, Batista Bomb, three count? Hmm. The worst of Bret Hart AND Triple H combined. Maybe it's all of these things…?

Kofi. The jury's still out on the alleged Jamaican Sensation, but I initially do not like him, despite the soft spot in my heart for the athletic high-flyers. The difference between Kingston and fellow tennis ball Evan Bourne is the old Vince "I know what the fans want more than they do" stigma; we're influenced and manipulated into cheering for him and the majority of fans are cattle who will moo on command. Bourne, though, was simply allowed to do what he does and he does it so well, the fans responded and, for once, McMahonagement responded. My gut tells me that Kingston is not long for this company, at least in his current position. More likely, it'll be back to WWECW with him, or he'll be backstage playing Mario Kart on DS with Paul London after WrestleMania. Just a hunch.

Cliffs?
Posted By: Cliff (Guest)


I'll take "Famous tourist spots in Dover" for $1000, Alex.

SIGH. APPARENTLY, IT WAS "STUFF WORDS IN GEOFF'S MOUTH WEEK" LAST WEEK:

I can understand not liking Elizabeth for the reasons you stated. But ugly? Really? I consider her one of the most beautiful women in wrestling history. I'd like to see who you find to be the most beautiful women in wrestling.

I liked Luger. Still do. Yea, he was probably a jerk in real life, but I still think he was talented.

If it wasn't for Hardygate, I think Lita would definitely be remembered as a talented female wrestler. You could make the case that Edge would not be in the main event scene without the whole Hardygate scandal. Certainly worked out for him.
Posted By: JLAJRC (Guest)

JLAJRC
! I, sir, am surprised at you! You've become one of my favorite readers, and yet you misinterpret me greatly. Never once have I ever even intimated that Elizabeth was unattractive in the least! What I've said, though, is that she was FAR from being the utter end-all/be-all radiant, ravishing beauty she was promoted as being. For my money, Dawn Marie back in ECW was a hell of a lot better looking and a lot more fun than Liz ever could have been. Other lady hotties in my estimation: Trish Stratus, Victoria, Kelly Kelly Kelly, The Cat, Michelle McCool and I must say, Jacqueline looked GREAT last weekend and she is no Spring chicken. I buy Sharmell as the 21st Century Elizabeth…how's that?

We can agree to disagree on Luger. I, personally, can't comment on the quality of human being he was/is, I just said he was stupid. Being your own walking spoiler alert the night before the biggest event in the business is just moronic (as well as disrespectful to the industry and all those who work in it) and he paid for it big time. I never saw anything in him but a physique and the strength such a build lent him, but if you enjoyed his efforts, my friend, more power to ya, I say!

Cheating on Matt Hardy with Edge was the single best and worst thing Lita ever did. While it did elevate her farther up the card than she'd ever have gotten alone or (sadly) with Matt, it also branded her a lying, cold-hearted, duplicitous, untrustworthy slut, and beyond the character she played, too, which is something that sticks with a person, as she discovered.

In her favor, though, I will say that she and Edge looked great together as they strode out of the smoke when they entered an arena. She did a lot to help complete his look and rebrand him as The Rated-R Superstar. As with my belief that Liz was an attractive-but-not-gorgeous woman, Lita was a good-but-not-great female wrestler. I WILL give her props for being a trailblazer in the field of women's wrestling, and I think she had a solid understanding and execution of psychology, but as far as the actual in-ring wrestling…? She was scary sloppy, especially during those last few years. Thank God she didn't hurt anyone or herself.

Seriously, putting down the Inland Empire and Orange County and putting over Bakersfield? Maybe if you like meth and tractor pulls...
Posted By: 909 trash (Guest)

You should stay in Bakersfield, you piece of redneck trash. You honestly can't talk shit on the IE and the OC but put up with Bakersfield. Cowf-cker.
Posted By: Sammy (Guest)


Again, when did I put over Bakersfield? Obviously, you two didn't read me when I was writing The R's those 3.5 years, because I talked a mountain of shit about that tragic hellhole at every opportunity. In fact, here's what I said about it LAST WEEK:

Bakersfield, a town for which I hold a grip of disdain, being my Godforsaken hometown

If it makes you feel any better, I fucking HATE that place and it sickens me that to visit family, I have to set foot in that toilet of a valley and I resent the fact that I was forced to sacrifice my teen years there and got the hell out of there the first chance I got. To reiterate, it was cheaper to attend the show at The Dome and I knew I could get my brother to attend with me if it was in his town, whereas, I have NO friends here in West Hollywood I could drag out to Anaheim or Ontario (where, in fact, I have a friend who told me just this morning that he can't WAIT to get the hell out of there) with me. My desire to see TNA's California debut was greater than my massive dislike of the place my parents regrettably chose to raise me.

On top of all THAT, by going to Bakersfield, I was able to purchase my tickets via ValliTix (sp?), as opposed to TicketMaster and so by pass they're fascist "service" fees, which the service of which the other vendor managed to accomplish for MUCH less the overhead. Altogether, quality time with the ‘rents and my brother, a fantastic experience at an awesome live show, plus an excuse to take off Friday and Monday from work…I think I made the right choice.

Of course, I absolutely respect your opinions and you have the absolute right to call them as you see them, since that is what I do myself. Notwithstanding, 909trash, I laughed at your comment; Sammy, I cordially invite you to kiss the brown part of my asshole. As if I'd touch Vickie Guerrero.

Did he really put over Bakersfield? Or just state that he would take the lesser of three evils?

I was a huge Luger fan...once again I grew up on mid nineties WWF and when Luger slammed Yoko I marked out hard. Then again years later when he beat Hogan on an episode of Nitro...I was touting the beginning of the "Luger era" for a whole 6 days at school...until that bastard Hollywood stole the belt at Road Wild.

This column has forced me to buy a subscription to WWE 24/7 online...damn you Geoff in this economy.
Posted By: Carnivore (Guest)


Thank you! SOMEone got my intent! I guess I just completely missed the boat (or in his case, aircraft carrier) in Luger's respect, although, in my own defense, I've never been a fan of the muscle-bound performers. I never got any star power exuding from Luger, either, though…just marketable size, physique & physique who, like Hogan, required a hell of a lot of situational booking and promotion to make him work, although, in Hogan's favor, he did have a hell of lot of charisma and presence.

Sorry, Carnivore…just count yourself lucky, as I, like Larry, have Time-Warner cable, which does not offer WWE 24/7…which is probably just as well for my bank account, although it would GREATLY improve the quality of this column, as I'd have a hell of a lot more than just my own memories and whatever's on TV to comment upon…!

That's 5SC for this week…thanks for stopping by! Have a good one!



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Comments (21)

 
Pretty good list of the most hated, but let me offer up two more, with the most positive comment I could make about either was that at least they weren't on the main event scene:

Buff Bagwell: Talk about vastly overestimating your worth to the business. By every account, Bagwell was a prick both in and out of the ring, and was lazy to boot.

Paul Roma: He used to be a pretty passable wrestler in the WWF, but when he jumped ship, he gave up, and yet they made him part of the most worthless incarnation of the Four Horsemen (and that is saying something considering they had STeve McMichael for a brief run). The only thing of worth he did in WCW was his brief run with Orndorff. Then he is asked to put over Alex Wright, and completely embarasses him on PPV, exposing the business and getting fired in the process. At least Hogan, Piper and others earned their reputation, what did Roma do to justify his ego?


Posted By: Michael L (Guest)  on November 11, 2008 at 09:21 AM

 
 
awwww =( I Thought you were going to be listing the most hated wrestlers in terms of Kayfabe. I was waiting to see Classy Freddie Blassie on here. Oh well. Maybe next time.

Posted By: Jamal (Guest)  on November 11, 2008 at 09:38 AM

 
 
yep, as long tna keeps playing their cards right with this MEM vs Originals feud they should be quite fine. That remains to be seen though as they have messed up on alot of good things but they've done good so far and hopefully they continue to do so. I can't blame ya for putting hogan at #1. My most hated hogan moment was when he said that wwe was hurting for main-eventers and he should be the one to face flair at this past WM. Dude just wanted to be the one that said he ended flair's career.

Posted By: cj (Guest)  on November 11, 2008 at 11:22 AM

 
 
I can see where you're coming from when you say Lita was sloppy. In my opinion, however, it was more a case of the other women not being able to keep up with her. Before anyone begins to rip me apart for that, I point you to her main event match against Trish on Raw. Lita went for a suicide dive, and Trish took the bump before Lita even cleared the ring, causing Lita to crash head first into the fucking floor. This was her first big match after coming back from a broken neck, and Trish almost killed her. I still find it unbeleivable that she finished the match. So, please, explain to me how you can call Lita careless and sloppy, and Trish the greatest of all time. I don't remeber Bret ever letting Shawn Michaels fall head first into the concrete floor.

Posted By: Muad'dib (Guest)  on November 11, 2008 at 11:27 AM

 
 
PLEASE... IF IT WASNT FOR HULK HOGAN, THE WWE WOULDNT BE HERE NOW. THERE WOULD BE NO ROCK, AUSTIN OR CENA. HE MADE THE BUSINESS WHAT IT IS. GET OVER IT. HE COULD SHOW UP NEXT WEEK ON RAW AND BLOW EVERY OTHER WRESTLER AWAY. JUST THE TRUTH!!

Posted By: rick goodwin (Guest)  on November 11, 2008 at 11:31 AM

 
 
To rick goodwin- There's no denying the influence that Hogan has had on wrestling BUT he just wasn't the most likeable person.



By the way...........GO OBAMA!, If ya smell what Barack is cooking


Posted By: cj (Guest)  on November 11, 2008 at 11:51 AM

 
 
Regarding the Hogan's-one-program thing, Geoff, I've gotta put forth just a little opposition to your point of view. Although I never liked Hogan, even as a child, the guy had such a dynamic personality that it was hard to ignore him. He sold tickets that way, and here's where I oppose you: You're talking about an entirely different era of professional wrestling. In the mid-80s, wrestling was changing a great deal, but their primary financial gains still came from selling out arenas. They didn't have any episodic television like Raw, no payperviews until later on, and even then it was just four per year, and certainly no video games. Tickets were sold much more aggressively (and shamelessly) then, because that was their payday. And once you find a program that sells that many tickets, you're going to stick with that formula, in this case LONG after it's gone stale, because again, it's your payday. It wasn't broke, so they didn't fix it. As a result, Hogan ruled over the WWF with an iron leg-drop until well into the 90s, until people FINALLY stopped giving a shit... well, except for the senseless few remaining Hulkamaniacs, but let's call them what they really are: Canadians.

Posted By: KanyonKreist (Registered)  on November 11, 2008 at 12:09 PM

 
 
Come on man, CENA is just like Hogan. The only difference is Hogan was WAY more popular.

Posted By: mr. HALLIDAY (Guest)  on November 11, 2008 at 12:53 PM

 
 
Come on man, CENA is just like Hogan. The only difference is Hogan was WAY more popular.

Posted By: mr. HALLIDAY (Guest)  on November 11, 2008 at 12:57 PM

 
 
Wow - strong words this week! All I'll say about Hogan is that, in the 80's, I did put him on the level of like Superman - work hard, train hard, say your prayers, eat your vitamins, etc. So he was like the big yellow and red boy scout, right? I was never a big big fan of ol' Supes, but as a comics enthusiast, realized that we were always going to have the Last Son of Krypton on the landscape and felt the same went for Hogan on the wrestling front. What I always had a problem with is that the guy had heelish tendencies which I found confusing at the times. I mean this is the guy that was built up to be the ultimate do-gooder but cheated like a mutha on any given occasion. Even for my young, impressionable and markish mind, that was too much of a stretch that I just couldn't get behind.

I'm curious to get your take on more recent folks like Brock Lesnar and Bobby Lashley - guys who had the business served up to them on silver platters during the rookie portions of their wrestling careers only to then take the money and run off to greener, no compete-clause, pastures. This seems to have hurt the business even more than the talentless wastes that you mentioned as the 'E is now reticent on pushing newcomers in their wake.


Posted By: JMAC (Guest)  on November 11, 2008 at 01:02 PM

 
 
Of course, Valentine didn't mind working with those two. He was blasted out of his mind on coke every night.

Good column. Add Sean Waltman to the list.


Posted By: Owen Can't Fly (Guest)  on November 11, 2008 at 02:24 PM

 
 
with regard to piper and the psychology thing, i think thats just about spot on.

thats why i've had trouble really accepting mr kennedy as a worker. i mean sure he's got the psychology thing down, but he doesn't really do anything distinct. what can he bring to the table that any other worker can't.

and i'm so glad you mentioned kurt angle as the antithesis of bret hart.
kurts exactly the kind of heel that i love. he doesn't just wear people down.
he's the kind of heel where just when you think the face is in control, wham he comes out of nowhere with high impact stuff, or the ankle lock - i mean that guy can counter just about anything into the ankle lock.

it works doublely for me because not only does it take your breath away, it leaves you miffed that he's just pulled the rug from under your favourite face.


Posted By: DaJ (Guest)  on November 11, 2008 at 02:41 PM

 
 
Where's Jeff Jarrett on the list?

Posted By: shone jones (Guest)  on November 11, 2008 at 03:05 PM

 
 
Good article.

BUT, everyone seems to keep calling this simply young vs old. When its not.

Its the people who built TNA with their hard work (Meaning Jarrett is a perfect person to represent them, even if hes not "young")...

vs.

The guys who come over from elsewhere and TAKE CREDIT for that hard work, demanding respect in the process.


Posted By: El Nahamocola (Guest)  on November 11, 2008 at 03:33 PM

 
 
Cena is not like Hogan. Hogan used his power to hold back other people. If anyone's like Hogan, it's Triple H.

Posted By: Guest#3082 (Guest)  on November 11, 2008 at 03:40 PM

 
 
Geoff, while I disagree with you about certain names on your "Most Hated" list, props for not including Cena. There is way too much blind hate for him. When it comes to Kerry losing the 2004 election, you're right about that but there was also the Osama tape the weekend before the election and that doesn't even include the media kissing Bush's ass during the contest. I'm actually suprised that Kerry didn't lose by closer to ten percent. As far as prop. 8 goes, as more older people die out and younger people are added to the voting process, gay people will be able to marry legally whether people against it like it or not. That sounds harsh but seeing as young people support gay people getting married by a 2 to 1 margin, it will happen.

Posted By: The Great Capt. Smooth (Guest)  on November 11, 2008 at 05:08 PM

 
 
Geoff, sorry if I misinterpreted your previous column. I guess sometimes we just interpret things differently.

I do think that we have different philosophies on wrestling though, as I liked (or at least tolerated) just about everyone on your hated list (even Ed Leslie, although only in his Brutus Beefcake persona). Meanwhile, someone like Greg Valentine bores me. I love his Dog Collar match with Roddy Piper and that submission match he had at the Royal Rumble with Ron Garvin, but that's about it. I guess I just like babyfaces and characters.

Someone above mentioned Buff Bagwell and I can't believe I forgot about him. I used to like him before his NWO stint, but after that he just went downhill. Maybe like Scott Steiner he should have just stayed a tag wrestler.


Posted By: JLAJRC (Guest)  on November 11, 2008 at 05:25 PM

 
 
As I was reading, I was agreeing a lot with most everything, then i saw the word "Roast".....I also saw "Hulk Hogan".....so it got me thinking....."The Comedy Central Roast of Hulk Hogan"!!! I'd PAY to see that!

Posted By: Steve (Guest)  on November 11, 2008 at 05:55 PM

 
 
Calling Bret Vs DEL the worst PPV title match of the last 20 years is just a tad ludicrous in my opinion. Just because no one gave The Patriot an ice creams' chance at Visceras house of winning, they still did their best to put on a solid match. BatistaVJBL bash '05, JerichoVAustin from NWO '02, or almost any HHH title match from '03 were more bland and painful to the eye then Bret/Del. Shit, I don't even think it was the worst PPV title match that YEAR as HBK/Kenny was pretty damn uninspired (and I too, am prolly more of a Shawn mark then one for Bret). Also, if you think Brets' last great match was WM13(sans Beniot) I gotta ask; what about Bret/Flair from Souled Out '98? That match was an unheralded gem on an unheralded gem of a show, and not just one of Brets' last great matches but really Flairs' too.

Posted By: SMYK (Guest)  on November 11, 2008 at 07:26 PM

 
 
I love reading you riled up. Greg Valentine was one of the best wingmen ever in the 80s, they just kept feeding him green talent and he made them golden. I'll even say he made Santana a force with his series of IC matches with him where they traded the belt.

I liked the results of Sunday's TNA and I like how MEM is booked currently. I still am miffed on the loser join deal but I'll except it. Yes, I do believe that Foley will swerve The Original eventually b/c he isn't an original at all. However...the blowoff will be Jarrett vs. Foley for that one. Angle vs. Joe (who isn't an original but he won't side with MEM either) vs. Styles is the ultimate outcome maybe for next years big fall show.

The list of loathing - briefly

Brian Pillman - Cryin Brian is forever the poster child of heartless prick that really didn't grasp the profession. He was pushed as a singles threat when he clearly wasn't. He had a great dropkick but so did...

Greg Gagne - Verne's son who was booked in an endless series of matches with Kurt Hennig (my favorite AWA spelling) which is just painful for my eyes to look back on Hennig begging Gagne off in the corner b/c that reminds me off...

Roddy Piper - If you want to know why stuff is scripted now, it is b/c of this tool. Piper had 2 qualities in life. He was either brilliant on the mic or he was incoherent, no middleground. He wasn't bland on the mic like he was in the ring sort of like...

John Cena - I'll toss him in the loathing realm. The whitest white boy since Barry O has driven his way to the top of Vince's foodchain. I am still baffled as to why really, not that I hate his "I am John Cena" speeches, I just hate his bland matches and one of the worst finishes outside of Ox Baker's Heart Punch in the 70s. Speaking of piss poor finishers...

Mick Foley - Always never quite got the love for fatassed Mick. When Vader powerbombed him on the cement and a program launched regarding Mick's "whereabouts", I was hoping that they never found him. Just so you know, I have met Mick twice and even had dinner at the same table and talked wrazzlin with him at Disney about 9 years ago. Mick doesn't talk much, he sorta...grumbles without an audience. He needs the fuel of a studio audience which leads me to...

Bret Hart - I have detailed my yawn for the excellence of me considering my own execution but this man got a single's push that I never cared about. If it wasn't for HBK, Diesel and Vader, I would have stopped watching the F when he was champ. Stop watches you say, that lead me to my last loather -

Billy Gunn - He might be the most overbooked midcarder in history. If his match is over 6 minutes, then you need to get him a tank of air. Bookers who continue to look for angles for this prick should be beaten!


Posted By: thegunisgood (Guest)  on November 14, 2008 at 02:30 AM

 
 
The list of Wrestlers you hate was good, but what about a list of guys you really liked that never quite did anything.

A few of mine are.

Kanyon - I remember when Mortis was first introduced and I loved it. I liked the angle where he went against Wrath. He did new moves(they seemed new to me) and he had a sweet ass mask. Then he unmasked and became the extremely bland Kanyon, but he still had good to great matches.

Scotty Riggs - I think I really liked this guy because of his program with Raven. I thought it was great and always looked forward to him breaking out and becoming something...never happened. I did meet him though at a local indy show here in Carolina del sur.

Mike Awesome - When I got my first job and delved into the realm of video tapes I found some real gems, like FMW. Where Mike Awesome kicked everyone's ass. I thought he was such a bad mofo and when I heard he was wrestling in the states I quickly found my new addiction, ECW. Not too long after that WCW made him a joke WWE didn't know what to do with him and he died...but he certainly lived up to his surname in FMW and ECW.

Those are just a few of mine. You're welcome to take this idea.


Posted By: Carnivore (Guest)  on November 15, 2008 at 01:20 AM

 


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