411’s Buy or Sell 11.14.08: Ring of Honor in Canada, Nigel McGuinness as the MVP, Danielson vs. Morishima, and More!!!

Posted by Michael Bauer on 11.14.2008

This week, the 411 staff looks back at Ring of Honor last wekend and ahead for the rest of the year as Ryan Byers battles Michael Bauer!

Welcome everyone to WEEK Eighty Two of BUY or SELL. For those of you who haven't been with us since the beginning, here's the Reader's Digest version of what this column is all about. BUY or SELL is very much like 411's long-running Fact or Fiction column. The main difference is that BUY or SELL focuses on topics like the U.S. Independent scene, Lucha Libre, Japanese Wrestling and pretty much anything else that isn't mainstream wrestling, WWE and or TNA. This allows for these areas to get a bit more press and for you, our loyal readers, to learn even more about the sport of professional wrestling.


Week Eighty Two's Match-Up:

The former TNA Recapper and master of all things Japan - Ryan Byers !
vs.
Buy or Sell's God and forced to stand in for a no show this week -Michael Bauer!

CHIKARA made the right decision by not having The Osirian Portal win the Tag World Grand Prix.

Ryan Byers : BUY. I've always been of the mindset that, unless you're running an angle in which the point is to build up an absolutely unstoppable champion for a major payoff defeat on down the line, a title holder who is entered in a tournament should come out on the losing end. It's a simple way to create a contender, particularly when the individual or individuals who eliminate the champs also go on to win the entire tournament. That's exactly what CHIKARA did here, as by both winning the tournament and scoring their final victory over the Portal, the ultra-hot Colony are now put in a position in which they can challenge for the straps. Of course, it would be absolutely idiotic if the Colony were to beat the champs and then have no further involvement with them, but I have enough faith in CHIKARA to believe that they'll do the right thing.

Michael Bauer : BUY. Yeah, I have to agree. It sets up a great future tag title match with The Colony, who are the hottest stable on the Indy scene right now. The Portal didn't need the win to solidify anything and they didn't give the win to an outsider team, so yeah, I feel like they did it all right.

1 for 1.

The attendence numbers for RoH's Canada shows do not justify a return.

Ryan Byers : SELL. I'm selling this mainly because I don't think that I have enough information to provide a sufficient answer. Yes, we know that the attendance numbers for the Canadian shows weren't the greatest in the world. However, what we don't know is how much money the show netted. If you can run a show with lower than average attendance but it still winds up being profitable or at the very least breaking even, you may as well continue to go so that you can continue to develp the market. Granted, having fewer fans in the seats won't make the product look the greatest when it's presented on DVD, but that's a much smaller concern in a promotion with a hardcore fanbase like ROH than it would be when dealing with something on the level of a TNA or WWE production.

Michael Bauer : BUY. Here is the deal. They had 500 people for the debut in Toronto. That is about the same as any of their "B" Markets that get the weaker Friday cards in the double shots. The problem? Toronto is the "A" show location with the back end of the double shot weekend. It's about what they got in Virginia or Long Island before the venue change. What happened? They left Long Island and aren't coming back. Granted, part of that wasn't in their control, but that is beyond the point. I can't see how they are driving up to Canada, spending more money to do that, deal with customs, and more travel dollars for the wrestlers and making a profit. I just don't see it happening and I can't see it going for much longer.

1 for 2.

Sweet and Sour Inc.'s after show attacks is the freshest idea in Ring of Honor recently.

Ryan Byers : SELL. Errrr . . . it's a a stable of professional wrestlers ganging up on a guy and beating him to a pulp. I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, but "fresh" is the last word that I would use to describe something that we saw the Four Horsemen doing twenty years ago and the nWo dong ten years ago.

Michael Bauer : SELL. It's not fresher than half the stuff they are doing with most of the students, but at least it is somewhat different. Yerah, the nWo did attacks, but not ones AFTER the show. To that, it is slightly original. But "Dirty" Ernie, Grizzly Redwood, Rhett "Addicted to Love" Titus… those are all fresher than this and all hilarious.

2 for 3.

SWITCH~!

With the current economy, Ring of Honor should not bring in Japanese talent as much and build up newer American wrestlers.

Michael Bauer : BUY. I have to agree with that statement. Look at Final Battle 2008. They have already booked Kensuke Sasaki, Naomichi Marufuji, Katsuhiko Nakajima, and Takeshi Morishima. That is a lot of Japanese talent they are bringing in for their biggest show of the year. Now while it makes sense for it there, what about the rest of the year? Why have Go Shiozaki running around with the FIP Heavyweight Title instead of Erick Stevens? Why have those huge one weekend bookings for Japanese talent and put them over when plenty of homegrown guys can use the rub? Not only that, but with the economy suffering and people "feeling poorer" than they used to, RoH can not fully expect the same revenue stream that they are used to seeing. At some point, they will have to realize that or they may fall into the same trap that ECW fell into before being bought out.

Ryan Byers : SELL. Bringing in Japanese wrestlers does presumably cost a little bit more money than using domestic talent, but, when you look at the "newer American wrestlers" currently available to ROH, things are pretty freaking bleak. Short of stealing the entire CHIKARA roster and transplanting them in to Ring of Honor, there really aren't that many guys on the US indy scene with ROH level talent who aren't already in ROH. As such, in order to keep the quality of cards at the standard that ROH has established in the past, they almost have to pepper their cards with Japanese talent. I would suggest using some Mexican talent instead so that they don't have to fly in foreign talent for quite as far, but luchadors as a group don't have the greatest reputation when it comes to showing up for American indy dates outside of Southern California. A good compromise might be to continue using Japanese talent but to switch things up so that talent from smaller foreign companies is being used. I'm sure that Kota Ibushi cost the company a bit less than Takeshi Morishima or even Go Shiozaki, and there are plenty of guys working in Japanese promotions the size of Ibushi's home company DDT that are just as talented as he is. (Even though they're not quite as good as the top guys in the big leagues.) I would suggest going after somebody like Tigers Mask, who has really started to develop as a wrestler in Osaka Pro over the course of the last year or even a veteran freelancer like El Samurai.

2 for 4.

Final Battle 2007 will feature Bryan Danielson vs. Takeshi Morishima. This question was asked and answered by Ryan Byers before the announcement of this match taking place.

Michael Bauer : BUY. Ok, I get a free pass here. We know that match will happen in a Fight Without Honor, which is needed to finally have closure to this feud. But even if they didn't announce it, I would have the match happen. As soon as I heard Morishima was coming, I knew the match would happen. Keep in mind, it has been a year since we last saw these two in a ring against each other. This feud never fully ended like it probably should have last year and then Morishima went and became GHC Heavyweight Champion. Now, the fans get exactly what they want and deserve. It's just kinda weird that every match between these two, except for one, has been in New York City.

Ryan Byers : SELL. Or at least I hope it won't. ROH has been in a real creative rut lately, as it seems like we're seeing the same match over and over and over again. Danielson vs. McGuinness. Briscoes vs. AOTF. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. The company is at a point at which they need to showcase some new feuds, and I have a feeling that the promotion's new booking team will soon begin to do just that. As such, it's time for AmDrag and Mori to put their feud behind them.

2 for 5.

Despite his year long title reign, Nigel McGuiness is not Ring of Honor's MVP for 2008.

Michael Bauer : BUY Nigel McGuinness might be the RoH Champion, but if you look at the biggest and best matches of the year, you will see that no name comes up more than Bryan Danielson. His matches with Tyler Black, on or off of PPV, have been classics. Overall, his Pay Per View record is remarkable. But there is one other intangible. How many people do you think he got to take a look at RoH by his dark match appearance before RAW a few months back? That's some serious value. And if he wins the title from Nigel on the Pay Per View taping, he will have RoH's MVP award locked up.

Ryan Byers : BUY. f I recall correctly, there was a question about the ROH MVP for 2008 in one of my other recent BoS appearances. At the time, I caught some flack from the comment section for listing my pick as Jimmy Jacobs. Well, I'm getting ready to list Jacobs as the ROH MVP for 2008 again. Why? It's because, no matter how many good matches you have, in-ring quality is almost NEVER the draw in pro wrestling, even when you're in a fairly workrate-intensive promotion like ROH. The interviews are what allow feuds to draw. When it comes to Ring of Honor guys cutting great promos and talking fans in to the seats, Jacobs is probably the best that they have. (Even though, when compared to the pro wrestling world outside of ROH, I think he's a bit overrated on the stick.) Yes, McGuinness has worked hard this year and probably been involved in more great matches than anybody else on the roster. However, Jacobs' specialty is much more important to the company, and that's why I have to give him the edge.

3 for 6.


The Eighty Second edition of BUY or SELL finishes at 3 for 6! Stay tuned for next week when two new men will go head to head with a whole new set of topics.