Ask 411 Wrestling 12.10.08: Big 4 PPV's, AWA Announcements, Lex Luger, Abraham Lincoln and More
Posted by Chris Lansdell on 12.10.2008
My 20th Ask 411 brings us questions about unfinished feuds, major AWA announcements, Lex Luger, Wrestlemania questions galore, Abraham Lincoln as world champ and SummerSlam Questions! Come on in!
Greetings, humanity! Welcome back to Ask 411 Wrestling with me, Chris Lansdell. I'm not at all sure how long my PC will hold out this week, I've been having fan issues, so let's skip the pleasantries, mention that this week's song is Movie Scene by the Fu Schnickens, and dive right in.
BANNER!
Banner compliments of Benjamin Colon. See more of his work at soulexodus.com.
Cleaning Up
Regarding the decline of submissions: I am not stupid enough to have forgotten that Stone Cold did not tap to Bret. I meant to say that fighting off submission hold for a long time before succumbing to the hold could make a guy. Although Stone Cold did not give up, he did pass out which would qualify (at least in my book) as succumbing to the hold. It's open to interpretation but I'd be an even lousier writer than I am if I did not know what happened in that match.
Regarding youngest and oldest wrestlers: Jimmy Snuka would indeed be oldest, I never even thought of him. As for Hardy...I'll allow it, although had he told the truth about his age he never would have wrestled.
Regarding wrestlers dating within the business / cheating on each other: Austin and Debra did hook up of course, but no cheating took place. The Bob Holly/BB thing completely slipped my mind, possibly intentionally since I hated that woman.
Regarding the Flair/Hart match: I did not know this match was on VHS, but of course that's not being shown on TV. I'm surprised they haven't put the match on WWE 24/7 yet. Or have they? I may have missed it.
In Soviet Russia, 411 Ask You!
Last week's answer was Charles Wright. Here's how it breaks down: I'm a former holder of two titles (Tag and Intercontinental) in a major US promotion (WWF/E) who wrestled there under 5 different gimmicks.(Papa Shango, The Supreme Fighting Machine Kama, Kama Mustafa, The Godfather, The Goodfather) I had a world title shot against a hall of famer (Bret Hart), and feuded with two other world champions (Ultimate Warrior and Undertaker). I was a member of two famous factions (Nation of Domination and Right to Censor) and have been both adored (As the Godfather) and hated (As The Goodfather). I now live my gimmick (Running gentlemen's clubs).
Although the Boss Man suggestion was hilarious and probably something I would do, he did not have 5 gimmicks in the same promotion. Same goes for Waltman, although he is definitely living his gimmick as a greasy-haired degenerate douche. JBL is close, but he has held more than 2 titles as he held both Hardcore and tag titles. This week's question:
I've wrestled in Puerto Rico, Canada and the US, holding titles in 2 of those places. I portrayed one of the most universally panned gimmicks in wrestling history. I've been in storylines with a dancer and a minister. One of my early gimmicks was taken from a famous novel, and one of my moves has a name that is equally cultural, which contrasts with my latest gimmick. Who am I?
Right, are we ready for some trivia? Well then...
Question Time!
Lremy22 is looking for info on unfinished feuds:
I have a question regarding unfinished feuds in the WWE, If my memory serves me correct John Cena and HBK fought twice (once and WM23 I think, and the following Raw) with each man picking up a victory, why was that feud never continued seeing that the two had good chemistry in the ring?
The 55-minute epic was almost a month after Wrestlemania XXIII, and they did have some multi-man matches between the two and one after. The two did work well together (Cena is a vastly underrated performer and Michaels can have a good match with anyone) but every feud has to end sometime. Michaels was only in the event as a fill-in for Triple H anyway. With Umaga, Lashley, Orton and Edge all in line for shots, Michaels was always going to be pushed aside.
Secondly John Cena and Randy Orton's feud never had a finish Cena got injured and they just forgot about the feud, why is that? Do you think that there will be some angle where Cena, Punk, and Orton feud over the title because Cena and Punk never officially lost it.
WWE is normally pretty picky about tying up loose ends with people who "never lost the title". Punk got a match against Jericho after the Scramble, in a cage, and lost. On the last few occasions that Cena has come back from injury, he has received a title shot almost immediately: once by winning the Rumble, and once by being John Cena. As for the Orton-Cena feud never really coming to a close...I'd agree, since the Last Man Standing match got called off. However, you can rest assured that we WILL see it again.
Thirdly I am a huge fan of Jericho and HBK but there feud is retarded if you think about how it began there was really no solid foundation as to why it began and when you think about it the whole Batista/HBK feud never came to an end either why is that?
There was plenty of reason for the HBK-Jericho feud to start. Jericho thought HBK was not giving his all, then he knew he was lying about being injured in a match. It took off from there. The greatest feuds can build from nothing into everything, and appeal on multiple levels. Smarks would know that Jericho modelled his career on HBK, while marks would believe what he was saying on-air. The Batista-HBK feud was a bit weird, ending when it did to transition to Jericho-Michaels. The HBK-Jericho feud was never supposed to go on as long as it did, so it's conceivable that he was supposed to go back to the Batista feud right after. The lack of direction for Batista for months could also tie in with that theory.
NYGIANTSFAN422 is bringing us back to the AWA:
hey Chris I was watching AWA on ESPN Classic and Larry Nelson had either Verne Gagne or some AWA figure about hyping a huge news to the AWA back in 88. Here is my question who or what is the big news and did it ever came to the AWA?
Depends on the time frame within 1988. It was a year of major announcements, with both Jerry Lawler and WCCW champion Kerry von Erich appearing for the promotion. If you're off by a year it could also have been the announcement of the Team Challenge Series, which was announced in mid-1989. Lawler was stripped of the AWA title and a tournament was announced in early 1989. Without knowing more about the timeline I can't really help out more than that I'm afraid.
Steve, who had better not be Steve Cook, what's to know about The Total Package. No Homo.
Hey there! I love your column and have a quick question for you. I never had a problem with Lex Luger but have always heard bad things about him. I've been watching WWE 24/7 and when ever the name Lex comes up, they laugh and make insults. Was he some incredible jerk?
As with most backstage relationships, it depends who you ask. Ric Flair speaks pretty highly of him in his autobiography, but Eric Bischoff says he was never fond of Luger either personally or professionally. A lot of wrestlers hold him responsible for the death of Miss Elizabeth, with whom he was living at the time she died. Elizabeth was almost universally loved and the question marks around her death have been answered in the minds of these wrestlers. He did have attitude problems, particularly with management, but I have never heard anything as extreme as "incredible jerk".
Our good friend PHILLIS has a multitude, a plethora, a cornucopia of questions for us:
I got a copious amount of questions for you here! My first is, whilst watching Jake The Snake Roberts matches on Wrestlemania VII and Wrestlemania VII, they showed a kid in the crowd who was shown on both of the Wrestlemanias. Who was that kid? He had like white colour hair.
Vladimir.
Just kidding. Honestly, I have no idea and I could not find any information on this either. I don't think Jake's son was old enough to have attended the events, and he has brown hair besides. Considering he fought two different people (Martel and Taker) at those shows, it would have to be someone associated with Jake. I watched both matches and did not catch any white-haired kids in the front row. Anyone?
My second is about the film The Wrestler. I seen a clip of it on Graham Norton's chat show and i noticed around the outside they had ROH barricades up like they use for ROH shows. What was the deal with them using that? Did any ROH wrestlers appear in the film?
The scenes to which you are referring were shot at an RoH show in Dover. The shows were not very good, in fact both shows were released on the same DVD so that people might actually buy them. The shows featured a very steep ramp, terrible-looking scenery and a small-arena, mom-and-pop feel to them that really cheapened the whole thing in my mind. Nonetheless the film will do wonders for RoH's visibility. Several RoH wrestlers were used in the film: Necro Butcher has a fairly large role, and Austin Aries, Bobby Dempsey, Larry Sweeney and Claudio Castagnoli all have credited parts.
The third is why doesn't Hulk Hogans AWA World Heavyweight Title runs count?
The simple answer is that he doesn't have any. He did defeat the champion on two occasions, but both wins were overturned by the AWA commissioner. One was overturned for the use of a foreign object, and one he was plain stripped of the title, which led to his WWF defection.
The fourth one may be a bit tricky. Did Abraham Lincoln ever hold the World Heavyweight Championship? Somewhere i think i heard that.
Honest Abe was indeed a wrestler, and fought for the championship on more than one occasion. However, records from that era are sketchy at best and there is no evidence that he ever won a match for the world championship.
And last but not least...... You know the World Heavyweight Championship that George Hackenschmidt was first to hold? Can every World Heavyweight Title since be traced to it?
Tough one to answer. The WCW belt, which in turn traces back to the NWA belt, can be traced back to the belt that Hackenschmidt and Frank Gotch. If you want to be generous, you can say that the belt currently held by John Cena traces back to the WCW belt, but I'm not that generous.
Sack has a DX question. I always used to win his races at school.
My question is during DX's heyday, circa the DX Presidential Speech, were Shawn and Hunter coming up with their own material for these type of segments and in-ring segments, or was it the WWF writing staff?
Almost everything DX did at that time was in collaboration with Russo. He came up with the name for the duo and scripted most of their promos. You couldn't tell?
His name is Earl and he wants to know about repeated 'Mania matches. Anything to stay off the list...
I can think of a few people that have wrestled each other at Wrestlemania more than once, like Austin and the Rock, as well as Taker and Kane.... but are there any others that wrestled each other at two or more different Wrestlemanias?
Technically Mr T and Roddy Piper fought at both Wrestlemania I and 2, but one was a boxing match. By way of his participation in the battle royale at Mania 2, Big John Studd fought Andre twice. Hulk Hogan fought Andre the Giant at both Wrestlemania III and IV. Ted DiBiase fought Brutus Beefcake at Mania V and faced him and Hogan at Mania IX as part of Money Inc. Yokozuna and Bret Hart fought for the world title at both IX and X. LOD faced Crush, Savio Vega and Faarooq at Wrestlemania 13 and again in the tag team battle royale at XIV. Mankind and The Big Show faced of at XV and as part of the Fatal Fourway at 2000. Repo Man and Sgt. Slaughter fought as part of a throwaway 8-man tag at Mania 8 and again in the gimmick battle royale at X-Seven. Edge & Christian, The Hardys and The Dudleys may have fought each other once or twice. In fact Edge and Jeff Hardy have faced off more times at Mania (5) than anyone else. Chris Benoit and Kurt Angle fought at 2000 and X-Seven. Jericho and Benoit at 2000 and 21. Jeff Hardy and Finlay at 22 and 23. Jericho and Christian at 20 and 21. Jericho and Shelton, 21 and 24. Benoit and Benjamin, 19 and 21. Punk, Finlay and Kennedy, 23 and 24. Jazz and Trish Stratus fought at X8 and XIX. HHH and Cena at 21 and 24.
I did not include any dark matches in this for the sake of my sanity. This was incredibly time-consuming to research and I could not have done it without my disciple Michael O. Fun though. You should have seen us swearing at battle royales and Money in the Bank matches.
Richard is wondering what MVP did wrong:
Hello Chris, Great job w/the column. Questions if I may. Did MVP rub management the wrong way? He has been on a losing streak and I was just wondering if he lost his push.
I'm pretty sure we addressed this before, but here it is again: MVP made a comment to one of the piss-test monitors, something along the lines of saying that his mom must be real proud that he went to college to get a job staring at other guy's dicks. Tasteful, no? My general feeling is that there's more to it, since he's been thoroughly buried since then.
Adam is using me to settle a disagreement. It's all good, I've been used for far worse. Like that time with the 7 midgets, the aubergine, the alpaca, four balloons, 2 clowns, a Swedish masseuse and a camcorder. But that's a story for the hidden Erotica zone.
Hey Chris. OK so the other day a friend and I were bored at work and started talking wrestling, and the particular legitimate dangers therein. he's not as into wrestling as I am, but he cited an example where a wrestler fell from the top of a steel cage and died. He first thought it was Mr. Perfect, but I corrected him that Mr. Perfect had died just recently due to heart complications. He was very sure that though it might not have been Mr. Perfect, however, that someone had indeed fallen to their death from a steel cage. I couldn't find anything about it, I was just wondering if you knew any situation like this.
I can categorically state without fear of contraception, I mean contradiction, that this has never happened. Nobody has died during a match in professional wrestling (though we've come close), or even in the aftermath of one. Only Owen Hart has died in the ring. The Great Khali was involved in the death of a wrestler in a training situation, but it was not his fault. Your friend may have been thinking of Owen, who did fight in a steel cage match or two and died after a fall into the ring.
DarkNightwolf101 is back, and he has Wrestlemania questions!
1. Why does the WWE not use the Pontiac Silverdome any more?
Simple answer: They can't fill it. WWE normally pays rent for the buildings they use, and something as gigantic as the Silverdome would be retardedly expensive. It's doubtful they could fill it even for Wrestlemania, unless they pre-advertised the return of The Rock to face John Cena. This is why you're seeing WWE visit smaller cities more and more, so they can announce more sell-outs.
2. Did Vince ever have a Problem with Tito Santana, because I Was looking at the History of Wrestlemania and I Noticed that he won the first Wrestlemania and lost the next twelve?
I have never heard of a problem between them. Tito was viewed as an enhancement talent for the latter part of his career and did a very good job of it. Besides, Tito's record was 2-7 at the first 9 Manias alone. He wasn't involved after that.
Jonathan has the first of two sets of questions about Survivor Series 91:
Watched a little of the Survivor Series 1991 on 24/7. 2 questions:
Why was the Undertaker vs Hogan not the main event? Wouldn't this be a huge match if it was their first battle? Was ending the show with a heel winning not accepted at the time?
Taker was still very new at the time and WWF brass were not sure he was ready to main event a pay per view. He also wasn't a big name and so the match, first-time though it was, was not a major deal. It was also the first one-on-one match at Survivor Series, so they were breaking with tradition. Looking at the matches that followed, it probably would have been better off going on last.
Second, they referenced the Roberts-Savage match on a Tuesday night pay per view. Was it a success? Has there been enough pay per view like that in the middle of the week with no build-up?
Tuesday in Texas was unique in being a pay per view with virtually no build. For years Survivor Series was held on Thanksgiving Night. It was switched briefly to Thanksgiving Eve and then moved to a Sunday. There was also Taboo Tuesday that took place mid-week. However, all of these events had a build. Whether it was due to fans having just spent money on Survivor Series, or due to the lack of build, the event flopped. I remember wanting to watch it and pretending to like this chick whose dad worked for a cable company just so I could go see it for free. Even at 12 years old I wasn't paying for that shit.
Mike also has a question rooted in Survivor Series 91:
I was watching Survivor Series 91 on WWE Classics and at the conclusion of the Undertaker Hogan match when the "officials from the back" came to help Hogan, there was one who had blond hair and glasses. I remember back then that guy would always be one who came out when there was some sort of melee and I always wondered just who that "blond haired guy" was. Any idea on who exactly he is?
That sounds remarkably like Rene Goulet, who was the distinction of being in the first ever WWF match to be broadcast on USA (facing Tito Santana, who has had a lot of firsts) AND of being the first person to beat Ric Flair (in Flair's second match). He was a great evaluator of talent and often fought guys early in their careers.
The Way I C It…
Steve Gozz has a bunch of questions relating to SummerSlam:
1. At SummerSlam 1995, what was the deal with the main event between Diesel and King Mabel? Bulldog had just turned heel on Diesel, and they showed Luger in the back looking devious, but he didn't show at all on the PPV. Mabel promised "an even bigger surprise than Bulldog" for Diesel, and the announcers TWICE wondered aloud what the surprise would be, and then nothing came about with that either. They have Luger run down, he gets hit "unintentionally" by Diesel, then he just left, chasing Mo to the back. Not only did that make no sense at all, but I find out later on, that Luger left the company right after. WTF? There must have been a "Plan A" that didn't go through, right?
Conventional thinking is that they were working towards a Diesel-Luger feud. Luger would leave WWF the week after SummerSlam to appear on the first ever Nitro, right after wrestling in Nova Scotia on September 3. The commentators did mention the big surprise several times, but also mentioned that it could just be mind games on the part of King Mabel. Luger's run-in was to prevent Mo-terference, Diesel clocked him and then he chased Mo off. Thanks to Jordan for his help on this one.
2. What was the deal with Tugboat at SummerSlam 1990? He was supposed to be in the corner of Hulk Hogan in one of the main events, but he got hurt (kayfabe) by Earthquake and Dino Bravo, and he was replaced by Boss Man. Now, Boss Man already had a match on the card, so why choose him to be the replacement, and for that matter, why was Tugboat not there at all?
Wow, a TUGBOAT question? Seriously? OK, well there was nothing actually wrong with him, he was just removed from the match to sell the devastating devastation of Earthquake. Boss Man had recently turned face and was being turned into a Hogan ally, so it made sense to put him into the match as a counter to the size of Dino Bravo.
3. At SummerSlam 1992 in England, why did Nailz have a squash match against Virgil, when he already in a huge vendetta against Boss Man? And why was Boss Man not even there? I remember that everyone thought that Boss Man would come running out after the match, when Nailz continued to beat on Virgil.
Nailz attacked Boss Man on his début in WWF, which aired on May 23 1992, putting him out of action until Survivor Series. The Virgil beatdown was meant to establish Nailz as a vicious, brutal threat of a man who could flat out destroy people. Bringing Boss Man out for the save would have made sense, but I remember reading recently that he was rehabbing an injury at the time. Not to mention that at that time there were only 4 PPVs a year, and the earliest that Boss Man could have faced Nailz would have been Survivor Series...which is when he fought him anyway.
Opinion Question: What was your favourite SummerSlam, either in terms of the best matches on paper that were presented, or in terms of the most enjoyable card for you to personally watch?
2002 had a great card and a bunch of good matches, 2001 was pretty good, however my favourite has to be 1992, because I was there. Biased? Sure. It was a strong card though, and the atmosphere was incredible.
Well that's it for this week folks. I'm off to collapse in a heap. You know who's in tomorrow. Stay Cool, Rock Hard.
Answer - Balls Mahoney. He started out playing a character called Boo Bradley, a thinly veilled take off of Boo Radley from To Kill A Mockingbird. The universally panned gimmick was, of course, Xanta Klaus.
Posted By: Shane (Guest) on December 09, 2008 at 11:31 PM
Didn't they actually tear down the old Pontiac Silverdome within the past few years?
Posted By: Som Guy (Guest) on December 09, 2008 at 11:39 PM
If the Rock vs Cena ever happened and Cena won, I'd riot. Fuck kayfabe.
Posted By: The Great One (Guest) on December 09, 2008 at 11:48 PM
With regards to HBK vs. Jericho/Batista, both feuds are well-done and tie into each other very nicely when you step back and look at the broad picture. Batista was pissed that HBK retired Flair and that started their feud. While that was going on, Jericho pretty much played the role of someone who idolized HBK as a fan. As a fan, Jericho would know that HBK was faking that leg injury that resulted in his victory, challenging him to a match to prove it. Batista then said that if he found out Shawn was faking, he'd take him out. After a few weeks, Jericho became convinced that it was an injury until HBK proves that it wasn't by kicking him in the face. Then Batista remembers continuity and beats the shit out of HBK. Y2J shows up to cheer on HBK to no avail and after HBK loses, starts a feud with him based on HBK lying to everyone.
So let's look at this from Batista's perspective first. Everything lines up nicely: he gets a match with HBK to get revenge for Flair, loses when HBK fakes his injury, gets another match when HBK admits it was a fake and beats the hell out of him. Batista gets his revenge and his part is wrapped up nice and neatly.
Jericho's is a bit more complicated but look at it from the point of view of an HBK fan. An obnoxious fan but a fan nonetheless. He thinks he knows all about HBK which is why he says the injury is fake. His idol then continually insists that it's legit and Jericho believes him...until he gets kicked in the face. So now his idol has completely lied to him and made him look like an idiot. Then he loses to Batista in pretty much a squash match. Jericho looks at this, sees that his hero isn't that great and concludes that HBK's lying led to his downfall. He then cements his heel turn and changes gimmicks into a morally-upright defender of truth to feud with the lying, scheming immoral creature named Shawn Michaels.
Quite honestly, the extended program from after WrestleMania until Jericho won the title is the most well-written piece of pro wrestling I've seen in a long time. The only problem is the feud ending with a whimper after Jericho won the title.
Posted By: MC42 (Guest) on December 09, 2008 at 11:48 PM
I was always pretty sure that mike dibiase died in the ring.
According to wikipedia:
Dibiase is one of the few professional wrestlers to die during a match. On July 2, 1969 in Amarillo, Texas, “Iron" Mike suffered a fatal heart attack in the ring during a match with Man Mountain Mike.
Posted By: eddie chicago (Guest) on December 09, 2008 at 11:51 PM
Balls Mahoney. The book reference is what really gave it away.
Posted By: StereotypeA (Guest) on December 09, 2008 at 11:51 PM
I thought Ted Dibiase's dad died in the ring. I read his book and I could have swore he said that. I also remember an episode of Tough Enough where Bill Demott was visiting the cast and told them that he just got a call saying that Rocko Rock (sorry if I spelled it wrong) from Public Enemy just died in the ring.
Posted By: Aftergone (Guest) on December 09, 2008 at 11:54 PM
The fourth one may be a bit tricky. Did Abraham Lincoln ever hold the World Heavyweight Championship? Somewhere i think i heard that.
Honest Abe was indeed a wrestler, and fought for the championship on more than one occasion. However, records from that era are sketchy at best and there is no evidence that he ever won a match for the world championship.
I think it was Bobby Heenan on an episode of Nitro when The nWo had the title and I am not sure if Lincoln did hold the title or not, acording to history the first ever World Champion was Frank Gotch (Correct Me if The Name is Wrong) But I think Lincoln holding the title was a work to add "Validity" To the title and what a travesty it was for the nWo to have it and disrepect it by spraypainting it. I hope this helps.
Posted By: BOB (Guest) on December 09, 2008 at 11:58 PM
Malcolm "King Kong" Kirk died in the ring in 1987 after a splash from Big Daddy Crabtree in a match (the splash induced a heart attack) in the UK, and I think that one of the Moondogs died a few years ago during a legend's match in Memphis, also of a heart attack. But no one died in a fall from a cage. Both Kirk and the Moondog were well in their 50s at the time.
Posted By: W.S. Thomason (Registered) on December 09, 2008 at 11:59 PM
Malcolm 'King Kong' Kirk, Gary Albright and Mike DiBiase died in a match via heart attack.
Moondog Spot died in a ring but not a match.
Plum Mariko, Daniel Quirk and Oro died from varying moves or mistakes actually part of a match.
None of these were in cages.
Posted By: Chimera (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 12:05 AM
I'm pretty positive that Gary Albright died in the ring. Also, there was a British wrestler who died in the ring in the late 80's. King Kong Kirk, or something.
Posted By: TheDDG (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 12:16 AM
"Didn't they actually tear down the old Pontiac Silverdome within the past few years?"
Posted By: Som Guy (Guest) on December 09, 2008 at 11:39 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if it gets set for demolition in the next few years...
From Wiki...
"The Silverdome was the brief home to the Drive-in movies. Opening in 2003 with two screens, a third screen was later added. The Silverdome Drive In ran in the summers of 2003–2005. The Drive In opened for a short stint in 2006, but as of 2008 it is closed."
Posted By: Silverdome (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 12:21 AM
Why would you go to the outdated Silverdome when you have Ford Field?
Posted By: Booker T (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 12:22 AM
Didn't they actually tear down the old Pontiac Silverdome within the past few years?
Posted By: Som Guy (Guest) on December 09, 2008 at 11:39 PM
No, it's still there.
Posted By: Guest#9087 (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 12:37 AM
"I'm pretty positive that Gary
Albright died in the ring. "
From Wikipedia:
On January 7, 2000, Gary Albright wrestled at a World Xtreme Wrestling show in Hazleton, Pennsylvania against Lucifer Grimm (real name Bill Owens). After being hit with a three-quarter facelock bulldog, Albright collapsed to the canvas. A worried Lucifer Grimm rolled Albright on top of himself to finish the match after which concerned wrestlers and ring crew tried to resuscitate him. Albright was pronounced dead shortly after being removed from the ring.[1]
The official cause of death is listed as a heart attack. The medical examiners also found that Albright suffered from diabetes, had an enlarged heart, and blockage of several coronary arteries.[17] Because it was determined that Albright died of natural causes, the police were never involved in the matter.[18]
Posted By: Craig R (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 12:39 AM
The Silverdome is closed seeing as the Detroit Lions now play in Ford Field and no other tenant can fill it - well, the Lions can't either right now but that's neither here nor there.
Posted By: Dane (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 12:40 AM
British Bulldogs vs the Reauge (?) Brothers was a cool Summer slam match, I always remember that match was great tag-team awesomeness.
I spelt the rougea or whatever wrong, I'm aware... the Mountie and his brother.
Posted By: Blueoyster (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 12:53 AM
MC42, while I agree with you that the HBK/Jericho feud is one of the most well-written storylines in a long time, you have some key parts of it wrong. Jericho wasn't supposed to be an obsessive HBK fanboy. Jericho's (kayfabe) motivation from beginning to end in this storyline has been anger that HBK can get away with things he can't and still be cheered by the fans. Shawn retired Ric Flair and still got cheered. He faked an injury to beat the beloved Batista, and he still got cheered. The stuff about Jericho knowing Shawn faked the injury wasn't because he was Shawn's biggest fan, it was because Jericho knew what a snake Shawn is and recognized Shawn's scheming when he saw it. Then HBK more or less proved the point by actually conning Jericho into believing him, only to fake him out once again and kick him in the face. And to Jericho's shock and dismay, the fans STILL cheered HBK. I think if you take it from Jericho's character's perspective, in the beginning it was just an honest attempt to point out, "you sure get away with a lot of shit," but eventually turned to pure righteous anger and spawned the heel turn.
As for Jericho's involvement in the last HBK/Batista match, Jericho has said since then that his character's reason for being out there wasn't to cheer HBK, it was play on HBK's pride and manipulate him into getting his ass kicked even worse. Jericho resented Shawn's connection with the fans, but knew he could use it against Shawn, too. Again, this isn't my personal interpretation, Jericho has explicitly explained it in interviews. Otherwise, I agree about the story being great and making sense for everyone involved. That's what makes Jericho such an amazing heel: he's never actually wrong. Everything he says is true, he's just a great big dick about it.
Posted By: Matt (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 01:20 AM
I believe it was reported at the time that Tugboat was actually briefly suspended from the WWF for "disciplinary" reasons, necessitating the injury angle and Tugboat being out of the event. I'm not really sure what he did, but it may not have much truth to it as he participated in many house shows and TV tapings after the injury angle.
Posted By: nwa88 (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 01:49 AM
5 Matches for Edge and Jeff? Umm, Two TLC's and a MITB equals 3? What are the other two?
Posted By: ThePhenom (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 02:34 AM
Oh, and Taker vs Hulk, was a big deal, first it was Hulk Hogan and he alone qualifies, but second it was for the belt. It didn't go on last because a Heel winning doesn't send the fans home happy, and you got to send the fans home happy.
Posted By: ThePhenom (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 02:40 AM
Jeff hardy and Edge have only fought at wrestlemania 3 times ( 16,17,23) not 5. Also, the Hardys fought the Dudleys at 3 straight Wrestlemanias (16,17,18)
Posted By: MFM420 (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 02:48 AM
Actually, the city is trying to unload the property on the cheap (something like $20 million for the property and building). They have an investor who wants to turn it into a concert and sporting event venue, with restaurants and shops also inside the building. The Silverdome is MAMMOTH inside, and if they end up cutting out about 50,000 - 60,000 seats, it could end up being a nice venue to once again host wrestling in.
Posted By: Brian J. Blottie (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 03:18 AM
No including heart attacks, the main deaths I can remember are in the 70's Curtis "Spike" Peterson & Alberto Torres. in the 80's Malcolm "King Kong" Kirk dyng after a big splash,
in the 90's Oro & Japanese females Plum Mariko (never regained consciousness & died after a ligerbomb) & Emiko Kado
Posted By: Rogue.9 (Registered) on December 10, 2008 at 03:25 AM
"Michaels can have a good match with anyone"
I respectfully disagree -- from the great beyond!
Posted By: Curt Hennig (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 03:35 AM
"If you want to be generous, you can say that the belt currently held by John Cena traces back to the WCW belt, but I'm not that generous. "
But yo can bet yo ass it's soon gonna spinnn reallll smoooth, babeee!
Posted By: John C. jr. (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 03:38 AM
I almost forgot, I can actually shed some light for you on why the ROH arena looks so little like an arena - because it isn't one, it's a theatre.
Believe it or not (and I'm sure some people will choose not to), about 7 years ago I actually performed in that space several times. Not as a wrestler, as an actor. The place is in Dover, NJ as you mentioned and it's called the Baker Ballroom. I did a few shows there with a community theatre group called the Entr'acte Theatre Ensemble in 2001, before they went out of business the next year due to, ironically, the douchebag owner of the Baker Ballroom raising the rent. Anyway, I can tell you a couple of things of note about the Baker Ballroom:
1) It's VERY old. It has a great charm to it because it has those old style balconies and a very regal, but very worn feel. You walk in there and immediately feel like the place USED to be beautiful. Probably why the director chose it for a movie about a washed up performer.
2) It's not even remotely set up properly for wrestling. I watched a trailer of The Wrestler to see what you were talking about (I actually considered going to the filming when I heard about it, but I was busy that weekend). The reason the ramp is so steep is that it's coming down from the theatre's built-in stage. Where the ring is a lowered area that was probably originally a dance floor/banquet area. During shows, it was always filled in with chairs facing the stage. The ramp from the ring goes up onto the stage and then keeps going up, and the reason for the incline is that there's not enough room to lay it out flat. If you had a ramp that long coming straight out, there would be no place to put the ring. The room isn't big enough. Again, it's not an arena or even a gym, it's a theatre, and they basically put the ring where the audience is supposed to sit.
3) There is NO extra space there. What you see on screen is the whole place. I did two shows that each had about 30 people in them, and we all had to change in a little green room that was smaller than a lot of people's bedrooms. Men, women, people ages 6 to 60 all had to get changed together in that little space. I can only imagine what it was like to set up both a wrestling show and a movie there. There's not even any decent place to park nearby. Everybody involved deserves a lot of credit for managing to pull the whole thing off, even if they did trade the realistic feel of an indy show for the this-used-to-be-great character the Baker Ballroom lends to Mickey Rourke's character.
Posted By: Matt (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 04:31 AM
I'm a geek and bored, so I had a go at that Wrestlemania question. I found a lot more, and also couldn't find where Jeff and Edge had wrestled 5 times. What am I missing Lansdell? Anyway, here they are, with the battle royales from WM2 and WM4 adding a good few more to the list....
Rowdy Roddy Piper v Mr T, @ WM1, WM2
Andre The Giant vs Big John Studd @ WM1, WM2
The Killer Bees vs The Iron Sheik @ WM2, WM3
The Hart Foundation vs The Killer Bees @ WM2, WM4
The Hart Foundation vs Hillbilly Jim @ WM2, WM4
The Killer Bees vs Hillbilly Jim @ WM2, WM4
Hulk Hogan vs Andre The Giant @ WM3, WM4
The Killer Bees vs Nikolai Volkoff @ WM3, WM4
Harley Race vs Junkyard Dog @ WM3, WM4
The Bolsheviks vs The Hart Foundation @ WM4, WM6
Ted Dibiase vs Brutus Beefcake @ WM5, WM9
Bret Hart vs Yokozuna @ WM9, WM10
LOD vs Farooq, Savio Vega & Crush @ WM13, WM14
The Undertaker vs Kane @ WM14, WM20
Mankind vs The Big Show @ WM15, WM16
The Rock vs Steve Austin @ WM15, WM17, WM19
Edge & Christian vs The Hardys vs The Dudleyz @ WM16, WM17
The Hardys vs The Dudleyz @ WM16, WM17, WM18
Edge vs Jeff Hardy @ WM16, WM17, WM23
Edge vs Matt Hardy @ WM16, WM17, WM23
Chris Benoit vs Kurt Angle @ WM16, WM17
Chris Benoit vs Chris Jericho @ WM16, WM21
Edge vs Booker T @ WM18, WM23
Trish Stratus vs Jazz @ WM18, WM19
Chris Benoit vs Shelton Benjamin @ WM19, WM21
Chris Jericho vs Christian @ WM20, WM21
Matt Hardy vs Finlay @ WM22, WM23
Chris Jericho vs Shelton Benjamin @ WM21, WM24
Triple H vs John Cena @ WM22, WM24
CM Punk vs Mr Kennedy WM23, WM24
Posted By: ColebutnotTazz (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 06:02 AM
The Hart-Flair title switch did air on 24/7 during the Bret Hart HOF month and I believe it's also on 24/7 Online (Legacy), or at least it used to be. I believe Scott Keith rated it at ****.
Posted By: Guest#9902 (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 07:14 AM
Tito was actually 1-7 at Wrestlemania. His win over Papa Shango at Caesar's Palace was a dark match, which was itself a rematch from a dark match before YOUR favourite Summerslam.
Also regarding Nailz/Virgil, I always thought Bossman wasn't there to sell the beatdown, and make Nailz seem scary (worked on me - I was 7 and had only been a wrestling fan for a couple of months.)
And since when did Hardy and Edge face at WM 5 times. It was only 3 times surely (16, 17, 23). They still tie Rock/Austin though.
Posted By: Mr Quimby's Beard (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 07:35 AM
I believe two wrestlers died as a result of matches with Ox Baker...
Alberto Torres in June 1971 and Ray Gunkel in August 1972.
Admittedly, Torres died about 3 days later and Gunkel left the ring and died in the locker room, but still - you'd run like Hell if you were booked against Baker in the early seventies!
Posted By: Kevin G. Bufton (Registered) on December 10, 2008 at 07:43 AM
How on earth do you get Jeff Hardy and Edge wrestling 5 times at Mania? As far as I can figure, they only worked in the same match at 16, 17 and 23...
Also, regarding Undertaker vs Hogan at Survivors 91, it *was* the main event, it was promoted as such but it just didn't go on last - the reason was that they needed time after the "unfair" result to push the rematch at Tuesday in Texas - they only had a couple of days to get news out and they didn't have Monday Night Raw around at that point to do it.
Seriously, you reckon that Bossman & LOD vs IRS and Natural Disasters was the "main event" just because it went on last?!
Posted By: Groinman (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 08:43 AM
With the Jericho/HBK fued as well, Jericho also was a fan favourite at the time and saw that people would cheer HBK no matter how much he lied, cheated, and faked - and therefore, in Jericho's eyes, the people were scum who didn't deserve to be entertained by him (Jericho). Jericho really did awesome in this fued.
Posted By: Big C (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 08:48 AM
The World title is the same as the WCW title, Biscoff said it when he brought it back. And if it isn't thn that means the WWE title can be traced back to the first title as it was merged with the WCW.
Posted By: Michael (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 09:07 AM
"The WCW belt, which in turn traces back to the NWA belt, can be traced back to the belt that Hackenschmidt and Frank "
"Traces back"? It's not quite that concrete.
The NWA was established in the late 1940s. During his reigns as champion, Lou Thesz did defeat several other "World Champions" in order to officially (or unofficially) unify them into the NWA Championship. However, a direct champion-to-champion lineage between Gotch/Hackenschmidt in 1908 and the NWA simply does not exist, regardless of whatever nonsense may have spilled out of Tony Schiavone's mouth during a WCW PPV.
Furthermore, the WCW Title does not trace back to the NWA. They're two separate titles (which happened to be represented by a single physical belt for a short time in 1991.) The WCW Title was the company title created by the corporation owned by Ted Turner. The National Wrestling Alliance Title was (and still is) the property of promotions that are NWA members. When Flair departed in 1991, he was stripped of the WCW Title but was still (briefly) the NWA Champion. (See also the Flair-Rude-NWA dispute from 1993.)
Posted By: HMFiles (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 09:42 AM
If you stretch the term "gimmick" you can argue that Ray Traylor played 5 different gimmicks in the same promotion (assuming NWA & WCW are equivalent).
1. In the early stages of his career, Traylor was Big Bubba Rodgers, who was essentially a bodyguard for Jim Cornette. If I remember correctly, he was pretty much a standard large redneck.
2. His return to the NWA, now WCW, was marked by his run as "The Boss" which was the equivalent of the "Big Bossman" but without the prison backstory. I believe McMahon made some noises about a lawsuit over gimmick infringement, so it was changed in 1994. The kayfabe reason was that The Boss was stripped of his nightstick and name b/c of his actions at Spring Stampede.
3. The Guardian Angel: Modeled after the vigilante group the Guardian Angels, that lasted until early 1995 (I believe another potential lawsuit was behind that)
1. Big Bubba Rogers: Traylor returned to his older gimmick and stayed that way from 1995 to late 1996
4. Rogers 2.0: I'm not sure when it happened, but I believe around the time he joined the NWO, he developed a biker gimmick.
5. Ray Traylor: After getting kicked out of the NWO in late 97, Traylor went under his own name, where he remained for the rest of his WCW career. He would jump back to the WWF in 1998 as the Big Bossman, part of McMahon's Corporation.
Posted By: Michael L. (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 10:55 AM
I would just like to say that I LOVED Xanta Klaus. Plus, his appearance once caused Vince McMahon to once say on the air, very seriously, "Obviously, that is not the real Santa Claus who has sold out to the Million Dollar Man Ted DiBiase. He's not even from the North Pole!" Which is just about the awesomest thing ever.
Posted By: Karp (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 11:40 AM
It's Balls Mahoney. His finisher's called the Nutcracker Suite, he has held titles in the us for sure, and in the WWC in Puerto Rico. AS previously stated, Boo Bradley was a take on "To Kill A Mockingbird", and the universally panned gimmick was Xanta Claus. With his finisher being called the Nutcracker Suite, it ties into the christmas theme. Where's my cookie? :)
Posted By: KryoniKMessiaH (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 11:50 AM
Regarding Abraham Lincoln as a wrestling champion.
Lincoln was a champion of his county as early as 1830, at the age of 21. Lincoln participated in Catch-as-Catch-Can style wrestling and only suffered one defeat. But alas Lincolng was not the only wrestling president.
George Washington our "First" president was a champion Collar-and-elbow champion of the 13 colonies. At the age of 47 washington still had enough left in him to defeat 7 consecutive challenges. Also Andrew Jackson, Zachory Taylor, Ulysses S. Grant, and Chester A. Arthur wrestled Collar-And-Elbow.
Theodore Roosevelt and Clavin Coolidge also on this list to make 8/9
The most intriging though shall be William Howard Taft. This guy belongs in legacy alongside Orton, Rhodes, and Manu (yes, Im aware hes dead). As he is a fourth generation wrestler.
Posted By: Leon Couturier (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 12:29 PM
Lansdell using "No Homo" which originated on the Opie & Anthony Radio Show means he's an O&A fan which automatically makes him the best columnist on 411!
FRRRRRRUNKIS!
Posted By: Jason S (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 12:31 PM
My memory is that it was Jim Cornette on an episode of RAW (around 1997) who ran through the lineage of the NWA championship. And, he concluded it could be traced back to Abraham Lincoln. This was during a short-lived phase in which the WWF had some NWA matches on its programs.
"I think it was Bobby Heenan on an episode of Nitro when The nWo had the title and I am not sure if Lincoln did hold the title or not, acording to history the first ever World Champion was Frank Gotch (Correct Me if The Name is Wrong) But I think Lincoln holding the title was a work to add "Validity" To the title and what a travesty it was for the nWo to have it and disrepect it by spraypainting it. I hope this helps."
Posted By: NoirFan (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 12:35 PM
I'm very sure that former Stampede star "Lethal" Larry Cameron died in the ring.
His death made the German papers when he collapsed either during or right after a match in Hannover, Germany in the early nineties.
Doctors were pretty sure that steroid abuse caused an enlarged heart.
Posted By: NMA225 (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 12:36 PM
The Flair/Hart match from Saskatoon was available commercially on a Coliseum Video release and the match was actually billed as a "Coliseum Video Exclusive" with the Coliseum Video logo on the video wall at the entrance ramp.
As for the AWA announcement, after covering that show for months I can tell you concretely that it was an announcement for SuperClash III, which featured the CWA, WCCW, and the AWA all combining for a supershow, headlined by the Lawler/Von Erich bout you referenced. They kept teasing the announcement week-in and week-out by saying things like "There are still some final details that need to be worked out before we can announce it" or "One more small thing that HAS to be finished before we can let everyone know" and by the time they announced it, I'd bet that no one gave two shits. Well, to be fair it was the AWA in 1988 so I'd bet people stopped caring LONG before then.
Posted By: Randy Harrison (Registered) on December 10, 2008 at 12:42 PM
For sure Alberto Torres died at the hands of an Ox Baker heart punch which led to a feud with the Masked Avenger who turned out to be a cousin of Torres. And yes Ray Gunkel also died from the Heart punch delivered by Ox.I was there for the feud and Ray Gunkel circa early 70's Georgia Championship Wrestling
Posted By: rosario11357 (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 12:52 PM
Before "nwa88" posted, I was going to say that the likely reason they replaced Tugboat with Bossman is that the fans never took to Tugboat the way the WWF hoped.
He was pretty much forced down the public's throat (like so many Vince creations) but the cheers were always mild if not altogether non-existent. Bossman had been popular since turning good earlier in the year and the crowd loved him. WWF figured they would get more PPV buys and a louder crowd reaction to have Bossman second Hogan instead of Tugboat. So perhaps it was a combination of both theories.
The failed Tugboat experiment marked the 3rd instance where WWF tried to build a little-known wrestler into a superstar by aligning him with Hogan. The first would be Hillbilly Jim who was built as a fan who saved Hogan from an attack in 1984. Hogan took under his wing and the crowd took to him immediately even though he only had a moderately successful win-loss record.
The second was when they tried to build up the Honky Tonk Man as a friend of Hogan's upon HTM's debut in 1986. Hogan even filmed a promo talking up HTM, but the crowd still shit all over him resulting in the now-famous "Vote of Confidence" campaign that turned HTM bad.
Back to Tugboat, while they had confidence enough to turn HTM right away, they still resisted pulling the trigger on turning Tugboat bad until 1.5 years later. I guess they realized a Hogan-Tugboat feud would not draw.
Posted By: Jason S (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 12:53 PM
I was actually at Tuesday in Texas in San Antonio. I had bought tickets ringside pretty cheap because it was suppossed to just be a house show. At the last minute, it became a PPV. All I've ever read said that Hogan demanded the belt back, and they created this PPV to get it back on him.
Posted By: Guest (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 12:59 PM
Edge and Jeff Hardy have faced off more times at Mania (5) than anyone else.
where do u come up with that number?
Posted By: smarky mark (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 01:19 PM
And last but not least...... You know the World Heavyweight Championship that George Hackenschmidt was first to hold? Can every World Heavyweight Title since be traced to it?
Tough one to answer. The WCW belt, which in turn traces back to the NWA belt, can be traced back to the belt that Hackenschmidt and Frank Gotch. If you want to be generous, you can say that the belt currently held by John Cena traces back to the WCW belt, but I'm not that generous.
Actually, the WWE title can be traced back to it as well.
This is a very kayfabed response, but the WWWF started when Rogers lost the NWA title to Thesz in a controversial one-fall match. It was originally supposed to be a best-of-three falls match, as were almost all title matches of that era. When it changed, to a one-fall match at practically the last moment, a faction of the NWA (primarily made of Captiol Wrestling - an East Coast promotion within the NWA)refused to accept it as a title match. When this match was won by Thesz, that faction continued to recognize Rogers as champion. The faction thereafter recreated itself into an independent federation - The WWWF.
To strengthen Rogers claim as World Champion, he entered a tournament in Rio De Janiero, which he won. (It's almost universally believed now that the tournament never actually occurred) But his World Title claim came from the belief that he never legally lost the NWA Title and thus was still the real World Champion.
(Ironic that an incredibly similar situation would arise 28 years later with another Nature Boy)
Posted By: HBK's Smile (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 01:22 PM
Some names that have been forgotten in discussing deaths in the ring are:
Chris Candido (died from blood cut during surgery after in-ring accident)
Brandon Starr (had a stroke caused by ring accident)
Dr Destruction [John Coggleshall] (had a heart attack in the ring)
Mark Mendian (in ring injury caused death)
Mephisto Lephanto (died in ring from a heart attack)
Larry Cameron (died in the ring from a heart attack)
Emiko Kado (died from a blow to the head during a match)
There's tons more who have died due to blows occurred in the ring, but I am feeling too lazy to list them all.
Posted By: Creepy Old Young Man (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 01:43 PM
The Answer is Paul Roma
Posted By: It is always Paul Roma (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 01:44 PM
Part of the reason that Luger is looked down on by other wrestlers is they feel he never respected the business. The feeling is he never had to pay his dues because he had such a good phsyique. He received huge pushes everywhere he went and was very highly paid, but never put the time in to become a good worker. JR has mentioned on several occasions that Luger was a narcissist who loved to look at himself in the mirror.
Posted By: anonymouse (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 01:53 PM
you can make a reasonable (not undisputed) claim that the four major titles that exist today (WWE, World Heavyweight, ECW and TNA), the current NWA title, as well as the WCW title are all connected with the oringal NWA Title.
Vince McMahon, sr. and other promoters were angry when Lou Thesz took the NWA title from Buddy Rogers. They refused to recognize Thesz, broke away and declared Rogers (in their eyes the NWA Champion) as the WWWF Champion. Rogers was deated by Bruno Sammartino shortly after that.
The WCW Title is connected - even if people don't want to admit it. Ric Flair was the NWA Champion. He was also a contracted wrestler for JCP and later Turner's WCW. WCW recognized Flair as its champion because he was NWA Champion. When WCW and the NWA split Flair was still recognized by both. He was stripped of the WCW when he signed with WWF, but the NWA waited to strip for a time. Both organizations held separate tournaments for the vacated belts(won by Luger & Chono), but they both came out of NWA/WCW CHampion Ric Flair's decision to go to the WWF.
Fast forward a couple of years. The NWA and WCW begin working together again. WCW regocnizes both champions and again WCW wrestler Ric Flair wins the NWA title. There is a split, NWA strips Flair of the title and holds a tournament. ECW Heavyweight Champion Shane Douglas wins the tournament, but throws the belt away while declaring the EXTREME Championshiop Wrestling title the real world title, leading to Chris Candido's title run and the joke that was the NWA title during the '90's.
WCW is bought by WWF. The WCW Title (held by The Rock) is renamed the World Heavyweight Title after the WCW-ECW Alliance is ended. Chris Jericho unifies the titles into the WWF/E Undisputed World Title. Later, Undisputed Champion Brock Lesner signs exclusively with Smackdown. Raw General Manager Bischoff stips him of the World Heavyweight Title and awards it to Triple H. Lesner continues to defend the WWE title, which is still linked to the old WWF Title (which grew out of the NWA Title).
ECW goes out of business. Vince McMahon buys ECW and appoints Heyman the GM. Heyman declares WWE Champion Rob Van Dam the new ECW Champion, giving ECW a second connection to the lineage.
In 2001 Jeff Jarrett starts TNA and recognizes the NWA Title. When the TNA and NWA decide to split, Christian Cage is stripped of the NWA title, but is still recognized by TNA in this title match that day (or the following day - not sure). TNA vacates their title following a controversial match and Angle wins the TNA World Title at the next PPV.
Those are my thoughts. They all have links to the title in some way, shape or form.
You could also link the AWA and WCCW titles as well
Not sure how ROH could fit
Posted By: cpbasil (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 01:57 PM
- Jeffikins vs. Edge happened at 'Mania FIVE times? Since when?
- Plenty of wrestlers have died in the ring.
Yeah... real good job answering the questions this week. Wouldn't it be better if you just made a post once a week that was simply a link to wikipedia?
"Sack has a DX question. I always used to win his races at school."
Be less of an idiot. There aren't enough clown horns in the world to keep up with your lame attempts at humor.
"Adam is using me to settle a disagreement. It's all good, I've been used for far worse. Like that time with the 7 midgets, the aubergine, the alpaca, four balloons, 2 clowns, a Swedish masseuse and a camcorder. But that's a story for the hidden Erotica zone."
Remember that time you were funny?
Yeah, me neither.
- John Cena isn't an underrated wrestler. I think a lot of people understand that he's a fairly talented wrestler. The problem is that he only displays talent when he's motivated. Shortly after he first turned face (his string of good matches ended approximately with the Benoit/Cena #1 contender's match on SD! in later '03) he stopped being motivated. Over the course of the last five years Cena's good matches can be counted on one hand, give or take.
That's why Cena needs to turn heel and not be allowed to invoke the Batista rule of "I get a title shot whenever I feel like it." Make him work for it and he might actually give a damn in the ring again.
Posted By: Ron Mexico (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 03:45 PM
Here's an opinion question for you; from Chaz having enough of Hairy Beaver Cleavage to HHH hugging Nash, what do you think the 5 most famous (infamous) moments of kayfabe breakage have been?
Posted By: whoknows?(guest) (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 04:17 PM
I'd really love to get some sources cited for the whole, Abe Lincoln as a pro-wrestler thing.
Posted By: Freakzilla (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 04:19 PM
Plans to tear down the Silverdome are caught up in the hell that is Detroit-area politics, particularly since it's partially owned by Oakland County and the State of Michigan. (By comparison, Tiger Stadium, owned outright by the City of Detroit, was abandoned by the Tigers at the end of 1999, and didn't see the start of demolition work until this past summer.)
Also, Ted Dibiase's father, "Iron" Mike Dibiase, *did* die in the ring when he suffered a massive heart attack immediately following a match in 1969. (This was the kayfabe basis for Ted's WWF gimmick; the "million dollars" supposedly came from a life insurance settlement Ted received following his father's death.)
Posted By: rdfox (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 04:43 PM
Gary Albright is the single greatest wrestler of all time. Not only did he have a heart attack and die in the ring, but his opponent pulled him over to make the cover. GARY ALBRIGHT LEGITIMATELY NO SOLD DEATH TO WIN A MATCH. If you have never seen his work youtube his matches against Nobuhiko Takada in the UWFI (it was on australian tv as "Bushido"). Every wresting fan needs to see those matches - Lou f'n Thesz donates his original world championship belt as the prize!!!!!!111eleventy!! anyway, good column as usual.
Posted By: Chilly McFreeze (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 06:38 PM
"Lansdell using "No Homo" which originated on the Opie & Anthony Radio Show means he's an O&A fan which automatically makes him the best columnist on 411!
FRRRRRRUNKIS! "
CRINKLE, CRINKLE
Posted By: jeff (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 07:20 PM
ummm Mustafa and the God/Good father are 2 completely different guys...
Posted By: Yodiddy (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 07:21 PM
There was a referee who died after tossed into a turnbuckle and stomped but that was due to a Heart failure rather than the attack. Still, he did die in the aftermath of a match.
Posted By: Blanky (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 08:00 PM
The Jericho-HBK fued has been one of the best in recent year. Lremy22 said it was retarded how the fued started. Obviously, this person don't know shit about wrestling and he also asked some very "retarded" questions.
Posted By: Joey (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 08:37 PM
ummm Mustafa and the God/Good father are 2 completely different guys...
Posted By: Yodiddy (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 07:21 PM
Ummmm... no they aren't.
Posted By: Yoyouareadumbass (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 08:39 PM
I once heard that the Headhunters killed someone in a death match in Japan.
Posted By: Hartlizel (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 08:51 PM
I don't believe Abe Lincoln was in any way shape or form a "pro-wrestler" and I think you would have a real hard time coming up with any decent source saying he was.
What he was though, was somewhat of a tough kid who would "wrestle" other boys and nearly always come out the winner, and he was known throughout his county as a guy nobody wanted to "wrestle" with.
There was also a fairly well documented "fight" between Abe (shortly after changing careers from a rail-splitter to a clerk) and a town tough-guy. Many locals wagered on the fight, and Abe won when he picked up his opponent by the neck and shook him around. (Abe was said to be 6'4 and 220lbs)
Abe was also apparently a good exaggerator as he claimed to amuse locals by lifting 1000lb boxes of stones. (I thought that was Dino Bravo's shtick)
Posted By: Gold Cola (Guest) on December 10, 2008 at 09:06 PM
Punk, Finlay and Kennedy, 23 and 24
Posted By: Guest#8482 (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 03:55 AM
Punk, Finlay and Kennedy, 23 and 24
Um I was there, Finlay wasn't fighting Punk and Kennedy
Posted By: Guest#9666 (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 03:57 AM
I was always pretty sure that mike dibiase died in the ring.
According to wikipedia:
Dibiase is one of the few professional wrestlers to die during a match. On July 2, 1969 in Amarillo, Texas, “Iron" Mike suffered a fatal heart attack in the ring during a match with Man Mountain Mike.
So my wonder is why haven't we seen a Simply Priceless vs. Knox feud then???? I mean the whole you killed my grandaddy gimmick has never been played up...
Posted By: DeadPoetic (Guest) on December 11, 2008 at 09:33 AM
Re Summerslam 95 and Luger. That was back when WWF used to do house shows where they recorded several weeks of shows in one night. I was at the show they did the day before Summerslam, and found out about Davey Boys turn before it happened. I dont recall it too clearly, but Im pretty sure Lex worked a match against Bulldog, so apparently they were gonna do something along those lines. (they didnt explain a lot at those recorded shows)Then Luger showed up on Monday Nitro two days later.
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