Ask 411 Wrestling 12.17.08: Perverts and Screwjobs Edition

Posted by Chris Lansdell on 12.17.2008

Mr. Madness, Boss Man's old job, the FU, Raw's most ubiquitous entertainer, the Horsemen at WrestleMania and...clean underwear? All of these topics and more in the latest edition of Ask 411 Wrestling!

Greetings, humanity! Thank you once again for joining me for Ask 411 Wrestling, your weekly dose of wrestling trivia. Now that my PC is completely recovered, I am suffering through stomach flu. Oh yes, it's fun. If by "fun" you mean hell. Anyway, this week's theme is Skin-Up Pin-Up by Mansun and 808 State. And we all know what comes next!

BANNER!


Banner compliments of Benjamin Colon. See more of his work at soulexodus.com.

Cleaning up is on hiatus until after the holidays. If you want to see what others thought or where they think I messed up, you can check last week's column.

In Soviet Russia, 411 Asks You!

Last week's clue: I've wrestled in Puerto Rico (In the late 80s for WWC), Canada (For Stampede as Abbudah Singh) and the US, holding titles in 2 of those places (WWC tag titles with Rip Rogers, numerous US titles). I portrayed one of the most universally panned gimmicks in wrestling history.(Xanta Klaus) I've been in storylines with a dancer (Kelly Kelly) and a minister(Ted DiBiase, who is an ordained minister.) One of my early gimmicks was taken from a famous novel,(His Boo Bradley gimmick was taken from Boo Radley, from To Kill A Mockingbird) and one of my moves has a name that is equally cultural,(Nutcracker Suite) which contrasts with my latest gimmick.(Uncouth slob) Who am I? Balls Mahoney

Here's this week's: I am love. I held titles throughout North America, including WWF and WCW. I have tagged with some of the biggest in the business, and feuded with other huge names. My name and my favourite finisher, as well as my home, all share a link. I was in many hair-raising matches in the later part of my career. I have been managed by, tagged with and feuded with Hall of Famers. Who am I?

Are we ready for some trivia? Well then,

Question Time!

Jeremy starts us off with a question about hard time. Also known as "Chippendale Night at Michael O's House":

Long time reader first time e-mailer.

Can you inform me if the Big Bossman was actually a police officer or was it all a big work?

Ray "Big Boss Man" Traylor was never a police officer. He was, however, a corrections officer from Cobb County, GA. Among other names, he was known as Big Bubba Rogers before joining the WWF, where the creative team decided to play off his former profession.

Dave should be prefacing his question with an "Oooooh yeah!" Of course by answering it, I may well disqualify myself from appearing in the Legends of Wrestlemania game...

Here's one that I've been meaning to ask for a while:

Back in the late 80's or early 90's, the WWF would advertise local house shows on their Saturday morning episodes. I clearly remember one card being held at the Boston Garden which featured a "Mr. Madness", which was clearly Savage being pixilated. They had him standing there, cutting a promo, his voice, mannerisms, but it was all digitized. Does anyone else remember this? It didn't last too long, if it matters.

Sure, I remember Mr Madness. It was indeed Randy Savage, and took place between Wrestlemania VII (where he lost a career-ending match to the Ultimate Warrior) and SummerSlam 1991 (where he married Elizabeth and was attacked by Jake "The Snake" Roberts). During the same time he was making appearances on WWF TV as well, in a non-wrestling role. Once Savage was "reinstated" after SummerSlam, Mr Madness disappeared.


Kash, who may or may not be a Kid, wants to know if he's remembering things right:

Here is a question that has literally been bugging me for a long time. The infamous night where RAW and Nitro merged, Raw started with Vince McMahon announcing he had bought WCW. If I remember at the end of his little speech he said something to the affect that "that's right, this means that Jeff Jarrett will never work in this town again."

Is this true?? I could have SWORE he said that yet I cannot find anything about it online or a video of it. Please let me know if I am just crazy or if he did say it if there is video if it available on the web.

I did not have any more success than you in finding a clip of this Raw anywhere. I CAN tell you that Vince did not say those words on Nitro, but then he wouldn't, would he? That said, I do remember hearing something along those lines, and a couple of the other writers said they did too. Whether or not that's suggestive reasoning, I couldn't tell you. I'm sure one of our helpful commenters will find or upload a clip of this for us, and if we're lucky they might do so without casting aspersions on my intelligence and suitability to write this column.

Anthler, who I'm pretty sure is a Pokemon, has a question about the F-U.

Hey Lansdell, great job with the column, but you gotta find more witty subtitles!

Not a problem! More it is! Direct all complaints to Anthler, he made the request.

Anyways quick question about John Cena, I was watching some puro the other day and noticed how similar the Samoan Driver (fireman's carry into Michinoku driver) looks to the F-U. I seemed to have recalled Cena performing the Samoan Driver (or at least a sit down version of the fireman's carry slam) as an F-U variation during the time frame where it was vogue to scream "you can't wrestle" at Cena (I'd say 2005-2006). Is this true, or has his 'regular' F-U (fireman's carry into slam with Cena in a kneeling position) always been
his variation of the F-U?

Thinking back to when Cena first used the F-U (during his first run at the world title, then held by Brock Lesnar), it was always a fireman's carry slam. I remember complaining about it back in my smark days, saying it was a pathetic finisher when so many better moves could be done from that position. He did uses to kneel down to execute it, whereas now he does it mostly from standing, but the main concern when executing the move is to make sure it doesn't turn into a Death Valley Driver. Which would be FAR better, of course. I don't recall him ever using a Samoan Driver, however. As for variations of the F-U, I don't recall any except the top rope one he used to beat Lashley.

Mike, known throughout the land for his patience and tolerance has a couple of interesting questions:

Been a 411 reader for ever, first time asking questions:

#1--With 800 episodes just passing, I am wondering if you (or any staff) know who has appeared on the shows the most?? Like UT 712 times HBK 657 or what?? And with that, what City/Arena has held the most Raws?

I'll start with the second part and say New York City has held the most Raws, between the Manhattan Centre and Madison Square Garden. The Manhattan Centre also holds the record for the arena that held the most. As for individual appearances…that's a hell of a question. The obvious answer would be Vince McMahon, between being commentator, evil boss, good boss, wrestler and so on. Earl Hebner and Mike Chioda are also way up there. In terms of wrestlers, the top few would be Shawn Michaels, Bob Holly, Undertaker and HHH. Short of counting every appearance in all 820+ episodes, that's the best I can offer you. The commenters will undoubtedly enlarge the list with suggestions.

#2 Why was Beefcake from parts unknown in 1985?? You figure that spot is for like masked guys or strange characters.

It's a fairly bizarre story. When Leslie was brought into WWF, it was to play a male stripper gimmick. No, really. That's where the "Beefcake" part came from. My memory is a bit hazy on this, but I believe he even came to the ring with one of those daft masks that cover only the eyes, like The Handsome Stranger used to wear. Anyway, he was supposed to portray a strong, sexy mysterious type, and "Parts Unknown" aided that mystique. It was eventually dropped in favour of San Francisco, because if there's one city that makes you think of male strippers, it's San Fran. Doesn't Bayani live there?

Once again, the name of this questioner has been absorbed into the ether. Profuse apologies.

I just wanted to know if the 4 Horsemen ever made it to Wrestlemania as a whole, past or present it doesn't matter?

This is almost impossible to answer due to the number of iterations of the Horsemen. They never competed as a unit at The Big Dance, but individually many of them made it. Flair, Arn and Tully all did, but Ole did not, and neither did JJ Dillon in an on-screen role, though you can bet he was backstage at several. Benoit, Jarrett, Hennig, Malenko, Luger, Sid, Windham, Roma and Mongo McMichael all did, but Sting of course has not.

Crow, who thankfully did not ask me to eat him, does want me to answer two questions. Isn't Brandon Lee, you know, dead? BEYOND THE GRAVE~!

Nice work, happy Festivus and all that. I have two (hopefully) interesting questions

He's working an angle with Maria, I'd say he's pretty darn happy. Oh Festivus? Sorry, my bad. A joyous pagan festival to you too. Heathen. Don't let Hubbard catch you.

A lot of these wrestling autobiographies and DVD's, the boys talk about ribbing, and the ribs seem to run the spectrum of Owen's prank phone calls to The Klique crapping in chick's lunches and gym bags. This seems rather odd. Obviously, prank phone calls are done in jest, but crapping in Sunny's lunch or Sable's gym bag seems rather malicious. I realize that it is a tradition that goes way back in wrestling, but how can all of this fall under the category of ribbing? It's a weird question, I know, so basically any info on ribbing is appreciated.

Ribbing is prevalent in all sports, not just wrestling. It seems to be primarily a male thing: when you get a group of males together the testosterone overload lowers everyone's mental age and maturity levels to the point where such things are considered funny. The Kliq did indeed take things way too far, but they wielded so much power at the time that the other boys didn't dare take them to task on it. They were also not smart enough to pick on people like Undertaker, who would have ripped them each a new one and shoved one of the others in it. Just try and get the image of Scott Hall's head stuck in HHH's new asshole out of your head for the rest of the day. At least Hall's hair comes pre-lubed. If one were to follow the law on the subject, defecating in meals or possessions (they also did it to Jerry Lawler's crown) would be considered harassment and could open up both WWE and the wrestlers involved to legal liability in many jurisdictions. Obviously things like prank calls, putting underwear in snow banks, putting Deep Heat in jockstraps and other uncomfortable but ultimately harmless pranks would fall under the more traditional definition of ribbing, and these are often accepted as a way to keep spirits high in a locker room that can easily become rather maudlin on long road trips and time away from families. The problem is and always will be just where you draw the line, since different people have different levels of tolerance. Although ribbing and hazing still exist, in recent years they have been toned down a lot. I hope this answers at least some of what you wanted to know, as you said your question was a bit vague.

My second question is way different. I just watched David Mamet's "Redbelt," and the movie, while fictional, kind of insinuates that UFC is fixed, meaning the outcomes are predetermined, not that the fighting isn't real. With Brock winning the championship after getting killed in his first fight, I kind of think it might be fixed. The guy couldn't hack it in the WWE or the NFL, but he's the champion of a league of real fighters? Clearly, he's the most-marketable guy, so it would make sense. Thoughts?

I am by no means a UFC guy, and even were I a UFC guy, this being a wrestling column rather means its not the forum for this question. That said, I don't think it's fair or right to say that Brock "couldn't hack it in the WWE…", although I agree that he couldn't in the NFL. Lesnar took the wrestling world by storm, and would still be riding high atop the storm surge right now had his dream job not come knocking. Lesnar's main reason for leaving WWE, or at least the reason he gave at the time, was that he wanted to play in the NFL and had the chance to do so. That worked out real well for him, huh?


Blake has a query regarding the occurrence of cardiac arrests in the WWF after WrestleMania VII:

Hey Chris, I love the column. I just finished Bret Hart's book and had a question about the Hart Foundation, specifically their finisher. I know the Hart Foundation had a couple of matches over seas after Wrestlemania VII, but after Bret went singles for good did he and the Anvil ever perform the Hart Attack again? Did they ever break it out in a tag match during the USA v. Canada angle or when they were both in WCW after the Screwjob?

Not in WCW, no. They never actually tagged there. I have a vivid memory of them using it at least once during the Hart Foundation 2.0 angle, and for some reason I'm seeing an LOD member getting hit with it.

Jason breaks some kind of single-column record by again referencing the Screwjob in a question. Monumental events in wrestling sure do generate some questions!

1. I was watching Raw from 11/03/97 which was 1 week before the Screwjob. Every time they discussed the match, JR kept saying "this is probably the last time you'll ever see these 2 meet". He said like 3 or 4 times. Did JR know what was up?

At that point nobody knew "what was up", because plans had not yet been finalised. However, everybody knew that Bret was leaving soon and that there was serious animosity between Bret and Shawn. There had been talk of a rematch on Raw the night after Survivor Series, which was coming from a US location, at which Bret would job clean to Michaels, but by this point that plan had been scrapped. With that knowledge it would have been a safe bet to say that the two men would never meet again, adding the "probably" disclaimer just in case. After all, you never know in professional wrestling…

2. Also on the card was Super Loco vs Aguraliaaaaa or something, in the match I saw 2 of the worst screw up in a match that i have ever seen when loco tries to jump outside and get tangled in the ropes & then tries to kick him from the top & completely misses. My question is, was this the last match loco wrestled before returning & what is the worst spot f up you have ever seen

Well, Super Loco is Super Crazy, who of course would return to WWE years later as part of the Mexicools. He fought Mr Aguila (and lost), and was signed by ECW soon after in 1998. He would have a very successful career there before climbing aboard the Juan Deere. So no, he didn't go back to Mexico right after this match. How he ever wrestled again in the USA, I will never know. The worse of the two botches is at the 2:15 mark...



The worst spot fuck up I've seen is a tough one. This comes VERY close, as does the Magnificent Mimi-Candi Divine debacle in AWA, a whole ton of Rey Misterio stuff, and the Beth Phoenix-Candace Michelle 3-minute struggle to do one move that was edited down for TV. The winner, or rather the loser, is the Halloween Havoc 98 match between Warrior and Hogan. The whole thing. Their timing was so bad, Warrior was wrestling the match on Saturday!

DaCinder, who was always fun to beat up in Killer Instinct, is a poet and was not previously aware of the fact. Wait, I told that wrong. C-C-c-c-c-combo breaker!

Lansdellicious, your Answers are too Vicious. Eats Q&A all day, Mmmm Delicious. I love your column. It being the 2nd best column on this site Behind 4 Wrestling R's, Fact or Fiction would be 3rd.

That. Was. AWESOME. You win the internet.

I've got several questions to ask you. Da first one is why does the WWE find the need to change networks all da time?!? I mean for crying out loud Smackdown is already on it's 3rd network. Raw flip-flops, and what the hell does ECW got to do with Science Fiction? The only thing Science Fiction on that show is Tiffany's chest(Not Complaining). And I won't begin to talk about Heat on MTV. What's Next ECW on EWTN or maybe Smackdown on Lifetime? Hell let's put Raw on the The Weather Channel. I can see Cole now, "We'll be right back for the conclusion of this match, now here's your local 8's." Please explain why the E' changes networks like Missy Hyatt changes husbands.

WWE changes networks due to genital warts? Who knew?! Anyway, WWE will put their programming wherever they can get a deal. The CW did not renew Smackdown, for example, so they had to settle for MyNetwork TV. Sci-Fi is part of the group that owns USA and NBC, and they has a slot for ECW, so there it went. Smackdown started on UPN, which BECAME The CW, so that's not WWE's fault. Raw moved from USA to Spike to get a better deal dollar-wise and also to avoid the pre-emptions for the US Open and that dog show. They moved back to USA at the end of their Viacom contract.

2. My Second question is why didn't the E' let Randy Orton end the streak of the Undertaker at Wrestlemania? I ask this because I heard rumours that DiBiase Jr. might be the one to end the streak, but it would be a waste of such a prestigious win on DiBiase. DiBiase really ain't shown us nothing in the ring and on the mic. The best person to have end the streak would've been Orton. I mean how much more so could you call him THE LEGEND KILLER if he ended The Streak. Plus he's awesome on the mic and excellent in the ring. This would have been a huge investment even though he's over already. Why didn't the E' pull the trigger?

Orton was already well on his way to being The Legend Killer when he faced Undertaker. That streak should probably never end, but Orton did not need to end it to establish himself: he was already established. I don't agree that DiBiase has shown nothing; I think he's got a ton of promise and in a few months could be a strong talent. Is he ready for the massive rub that would come from ending The Streak? Not this year.

3. I'm sure you've probably answered this but I wasn't reading then but, Where in the Blue HELL is the gimmick matches with the divas. What happen to bra and panties matches, and pillow fights, and swimsuit competitions, and my Fav, a good ole fashioned Mud Match. I mean for crying out loud what decent man doesn't want to see Mickie, or Maria, or Kelly Kelly, Layla, Maryse and Melina duking it out, in MUD!?!? What's up wit dat? Don't tell me they want to take the diva division serious? Also when was the last time they had a mud match and who was in it?

Where to begin...

Not every "decent man" is a slobbering pervert who thinks the only place for women in wrestling is half-dressed and whoring it up. Some of us enjoy SHIMMER, joshi puro, and even the better women's matches we're getting on TV now. I hope I never see another bikini beach brawl, Thanksgiving Gravy Bowl Match, pillow fight, water pistol fight or mud match in a wrestling event. If I want porn, I'll watch porn. If I want wrestling, I will watch wrestling. WWE is moving to a more family-friendly product, so the chances of ever seeing this sort of match again are slim. They also want a more realistic and serious product, so yes they may well start taking the Divas seriously. The last mud match I could find was Trish vs Stacy, August 19 2002. Candice and Melina had a pudding match at One Night Stand 2007. Try not to dislocate your right wrist if you find clips.


Boy Liilii is back with a question that made me gag and one that made me think.

hey Chris great column and i got 2 questions for you!

1. When a diva or knockout sells their underwear do they wash it first? if not that would be kinda nasty wouldn't it!

Ummm...wow. Seriously? As I do not know anyone who has ever won one of the WWE auctions, or who has ever bought any undergarments from any female for that matter, and WWE do not advertise the fact, I cannot give you a concrete answer. They do state that many of their Diva items are "worn" or "used", but that doesn't necessarily mean "full of dischargey goodness". I couldn't find anything on TNA Knockouts selling underwear. I'll just mention that some buyers (dare I say "most buyers"?) would prefer it if the garments were NOT washed first.

2. i know this question has been asked before but, how tall is the undertaker? i heard everything from 6'6 to 6'10! on YouTube theirs a video where the undertaker meets matt hughes and he's standing next to tim sylvia who's 6'8 and he looks a few inches taller, could you help me out with this one! Happy Holidays!

Taker is a legit 6'10". I met him, Big Show, Booker T and Randy Orton at an airport once, briefly, and he towered over my 6'3". Big Show was on a whole other level. Also, Big Show's hands are even bigger than you think they are.

The Way I C It...

Our friend DarkNightwolf101 is back with some questions about the 40-piece ultimate playset that gives Shawn Michaels the shivers:

1. Did Eric Bischoff create the Elimination Chamber because Vince McMahon wouldn't let him use War Games, or did the WWE want a new Gimmick Match?

A little bit of both. First, I have never seen an official source saying Bischoff came up with the Chamber, but it has always been my understanding that he pitched War Games several times to Vince, who always put the kibosh on it. He was afraid that using "War" in the name of a match would attract negative press, especially combined with "Games" at a time when the USA was engaged in a couple of unpopular wars. Bischoff and Vince worked out a compromise and the Chamber was born. It's one of a few gimmick matches that WWE has made stick, with other successes being Hell in a Cell, TLC matches, Money in the Bank and to a lesser extent the Beat the Clock challenge. And before you start, I am well aware that WWE did not invent most of those matches.

2. Which do you think is better: War Games or Elimination Chamber?

Despite never being a big WCW fan, and having seen precisely one War Games, I prefer it. I like the Elimination Chamber but it often feels like it's excessive and contrived with all that chain and grating and metal. Visually stunning, but over-complicated. War Games, by contrast, was elegant in its simplicity. Sometimes too much is possible.

That's all from me folks. You've got some cover for the next two weeks in the form of Mr Sforcina (I've seen him, I call him Mr.), so play nice and do as he tells you. I wish all the best for everyone celebrating the holidays, and a prosperous new year to all. Stay Cool, Rock Hard and be safe.

Lansdellicious – Out.