Ask 411 Wrestling 01.21.09: Ric Flair, Grand Slam Champions, and The Eternal Savage Question!

Posted by Mathew Sforcina on 01.21.2009

Why did Flair get the title while being buried? Why didn't Lawler get a bigger push? Just what is a Grand Slam Champion? Should WWE reduce it's PPVs? Who was Faith No More Guy? And just how well can I function now that My Goddess is gone? All these are asked inside, so why don't you join the rest of us? JOIN... US....

So, as you may have noticed if you've read any of half a dozen columns and news reports here on 411, Victoria's retired. And, with almost every mention of this on the site, a joke is made about me in conjunction with it. Not that I'm upset with this, if it was Traci Brooks everyone would be making Cook jokes, since it's Victoria, it's me. After all, she is My Goddess.

Since I redid her ES back when the news first broke, I can't really repost that, so instead I'm going to talk about just why I'm such a huge fan. Skip past the videos if you just want to get to the questions to insult me.

It started pretty much as just an offshoot of my Stevie fandom. I've always liked Stevie Richards, and once he got the girl that up until then I'd just considered a pretty hot Diva, I was pleased and continued to watch. Before that I found her very nice to look at, being somewhat different from the WWE norm that I wasn't a fan of. Then the crazy came out, and I became a fan of hers. I'm pretty much a heel fan as a rule, and Victoria was so dedicated to the character, I just became a fan of hers through that.

Then, on top of her looks and character, she then showed that she was a really great wrestler, and that hooked me. She had everything I wanted in a Diva, and then some. By the time she won the Women's title for the first time in a Hardcore match (!!) over Trish, I was already singing her praises online.

As time went on, and she turned face, I'll admit that I waned slightly, as I was tempted by some of the new women coming in and her face character wasn't quite as engaging as her crazy. I still liked her, but she became one of a few, Molly and Gail and Trish began to compete in my top lists, especially as Victoria began with the ‘stripping' and the dancing.

And then the influx of the Diva Search began, and the WWE dismantled their division, getting rid of a lot of talented women and replacing them with Diva Search Contestants. I lost a little faith in the company, but then…



The awesome starts at 3:45 or so.

And suddenly Victoria had returned! And she was now a rare high spot in an otherwise murky sea, and for that she became my Goddess, since she was a rare talented and beautiful woman in a division filled with bimbos.

But, all good things must sadly come to an end, and now she's gone, and I never got the chance to see her live. Well, I did, but I didn't end up getting tickets, but whatever. Goodbye Victoria, I'll miss you.

I'd put in the Official Unofficial Tribute Video (i.e. the one Victoria's put up on her Myspace page), but Randle beat me to it, so instead here's the best one I found that didn't have a crappy 30 second pre-video message.



Goodbye Goddess, Goodbye. Now if I can just work out how to do that Spider's Web move right…

NEW BANNER!



Big ups to Jerrod Westerfeld for the new banner, isn't it snazzy? I'd link to him, but I'm not sure what he does now except be the second in line for banner manufacturing. Still, thanks dude!

Theme for today is Victims of Science – "The Device Has Been Modified".

Backtalking

ECW Title: If you become the biggest wrestling company on earth, you can decide what is and isn't a world title. WWE says the ECW title is one, so it is. Being the biggest wrestling company in history has its perks. The three WWE belts, TNA's, ROH's, AJPW's Triple Crown, and New Japan's IWGP champ are all, right now, World Titles in my eyes and will probably be referred to as such in later columns. Any company above a certain level of prestige/size/fans has something resembling ‘world' status, and any belt they call a World Title or equivalent is one. WWE has three of them, but they are all treated as world titles. Sure, not every belt there is on the same level, you can rank them, but they are all still World Titles.

And yes, I know that's going to bring out the Trolls, but screw em.

Random Smark's Trivia: Well, I suppose these count as questions, but still, I'm not sure this is the idea of these columns. Still, the answer to your second one (I knew the first one but someone already answered it last week) is RVD.

HHH and long hair: IWC folk wisdom holds that HHH, being a paranoid git who's only out to keep himself on top and uses Steph to keep the whole of the WWE wrapped around his little finger while he takes over Flair's World Title runs and generally is an outright bastard through and through, gets the WWE creative department to force everyone with long hair to cut it so that he's the only one with long, luscious locks.

Where Edge fits into that wisdom I have no idea.

Christy Hemme: Thanks to the emailer who told me a bit of gossip I hadn't heard of before. And it's not a mental image I'm likely to forget, thanks.

Geez, a three way with HHH, Batista and Christy…ugh…

Oops.

My Nationality: I don't make a habit of referring to my Australianness in these things, although I do mention it from time to time. But yeah, I'm a Sydneysider who works for AWF, so I can't have an unbiased opinion about any other company. I tend to tone down Aussie slang when I write since most of my readers are non-Australians, but the occasional one will slip through, and for that I'm not ashamed.

And I'm a little peeved at the idea that as an Australian I can't write this column. See, there's this thing called The Internet that everyone who has written this column has used to answer most of the questions, and I have as much access to that as anyone else. I also have been watching mainstream wrestling and a significant amount of Indy stuff for over a decade, and I have a fairly well functioning brain. But seriously, would my living in Des Moines make me more likely to be able to answer questions on the DuMont Network's Wrestling? Would my having attended a WWE event make me more qualified to talk about the IWGP Tag Titles? Please.

But thanks for those who have shown some support in me, thanks.

Your Turn, Smart Guy…

Ok, let's get this over with.

Question's one answer is indeed the trio of Edge, RVD and He Who Must Not Be Named. No woman can be the answer, so it's best of 7. And since no-one has held all three world titles, it's 6 at best, but no-one who has held both the IC and US titles has held 2 world titles, so it's down to 5, and thus you get those three tied.

As for the second question, again, correct, Matt Hardy and RVD with 7 is the right answer, since WWE does sort of acknowledge RVD's reign here. But the question was badly thought out overall, so let's just move the hell on.

Easy one to get back on track. What position have Kevin Nash, Terry Funk, Jeff Jarrett, Mike Sanders, The Cat AND Lance Storm all held?

Questions, Questions, Who's Got The Questions?

Reminder, please send all questions to [e-mail] since that's the correct email. Hopefully I'll work out why the mailto bit isn't showing the change soon.

Eric Maldonado starts us off this week with an Ask411 rite of passage.

I've read about this in Ask411 before, but since you're the new guy I wanted to pick your brains and see if you knew something no one else did. What the hell's the deal with WWE and Randy Savage? Seriously. I've read everything from an "indecent relationship" with Stephanie McMahon to Vince just being pissed that he went off to WCW and holds a huge grudge to this day. I don't believe the latter, cuz if that were the case, why the hell is Hulk Hogan periodically involved with WWE given he and Vince's twisted past? I don't get it man. One of the most recognizable and legendary stars in all of wrestling gets no love from WWE. Obviously there's something we don't know about. So what gives man?

Ah yes, the Macho Man question. Every Ask411 writer gets this one, since it's perhaps the biggest unsolved mystery in Wrestling Today. And it is an odd one. See, normally those on WWE's black list tend to fall into two broad categories.

The "One Act" camp are those people who did one thing, one sole act that means that they can never be welcomed again into the WWE due to what they did. Madusa tossing the Women's Title Belt in the trash, Wendi Richter not signing on the dotted line, Dr. D slapping the interviewer, He Who Must Not Be Named, there's one public act that means Vince will NEVER forgive them.

Then there's the "Constant Distance" camp, which have all the people who have an icy relationship with WWE due to their continuing actions. Warrior's constant insanity, Bruno's continuous rejection, Mick Foley's recent actions, some guys are only on the outs because they WANT to be on the outs, and if they played ball, Vince would have them back quick smart. He got Bret Hart back, no-one, surely, is off limits.

Apart from Savage.

His ‘incident' with Steph is I think more someone's attempt to think of something Vince would want to keep under wraps but never reveal to the public for whatever reason (although if it did happen, really, the moment Savage went to go to WCW you'd think Vince would have gone straight to the cops so it became WCW's problem) than anything based in fact. According to Bret Hart, Savage told Vince he was leaving via a drunken phone call which probably wasn't a smart move. Vince has accepted or wants to accept back practically everyone who ever made him money, so Savage is the odd man out. No-one knows the reason, and until either one of them cracks and/or dies, we probably will never know. If you tied me down and forced me to give you an answer, my best guess would be that it's a combination of a few things. Savage left because he was sick of doing mostly announcing and wanted to go back to wrestling, so he was working against Vince's vision of what was best, Strike 1. He did well in WCW, Strike 2. He supposedly still hates Vince, Strike 3. Add in some personal animosity that we'll probably never guess (maybe Vince liked Miss Elizabeth, maybe he thinks he owned Savage), and you have the one man Vince seems intent on never dealing with. However, should Vince leave the company/this plane of existence before Savage, chances are that Savage and the WWE will make amends.

Maybe.

Paul Bristow has a few questions.

1) If Ric Flair was downtrodden in WCW when Hogan and Savage arrived (which he was) why did they have him win the title back in 95 and 96? Now I understand that the opponents they had Hogan and Savage face after Flair did not really take of i.e Dungeon of Doom (people like Loch Ness) and Vader. Was it they simply needed a mega heel again and Flair could be relied upon?

Kinda. Flair was still on somewhat good terms with Bischoff at this point, and given Nitro was just starting up, when there were problems with Vader being unhappy about his storylines, Flair was brought back into the title hunt. The Flair/Savage feud was actually a very successful one in terms of buyrates and ratings. It didn't set the world on fire, but it was certainly a successful program, so to continue it, they traded the belt back and forth a couple of times. NWA/WCW Booking 101 said that Flair should have won the title early then fended off Savage for a bit, but Bischoff was now getting into his groove of trying to take Vince down, so he had Flair and Savage trade the belt a couple of times to generate more interest from the WWF fanbase who were more used to a slightly higher turnover rate of the belt. It wasn't until the nWo angle took off that Flair was buried, and buried hard and removed from the title picture.

2) Same question in 1999 - if Flair was hated by Bischoff and Russo what was behind Flair title win and heel run in 99. I remember really enjoying his chicken shit heel run as Champ and owner in 99. Why did they go back to Flair in 99 (despite ruining the rebith of the Horseman - why did they go back to the horseman then drop in months later) give him a good push as a chicken shit heel and then have him lose like a month later in a four way with Hogan, Sting and DDP. If the plan was to push DDP why not have him beat Hogan instead of Flair?

Because Hogan was turning face in that month, since the Turner Suits wanted it. By this point Bischoff had lost the fight against the new suits in charge, and they wanted Hogan as a face so they could sell lots of Hulkamania merch/because they wanted Nitro to be family friendly and that meant Face Hogan. But Bischoff was able to get his way on the title moving to DDP. But since DDP was a face, and they didn't want to do a face/face switch, Flair turned heel, won the belt, then lost it to DDP, once again Flair was used as a stopgap to get the belt on someone else.

3) Finally, a question on Jerry Lawler. Why did he never do better in the WWF? He was the man in the deep South and I remember him being cheered to hilt every time the WWF went to Memphis. His run with Hart was awesome - afterwards he was just a comedy jobber despite his success in the south and being a former AWA chap?

There's two reasons as to why Lawler didn't get pushed that much.

First off, for the most part his runs in WWF in the early to mid 90's he was still working most of the time in the USWA, the United States Wrestling Association, which ended up being the last Full Time Territory Company left in North America before it closed. Lawler, as the main star of the promotion, spent most of his time there, and his WWF run was more to gain exposure for the USWA than help the WWF.

And, secondly, because Vince saw him more as an Announcer. He was in his 40's when he feuded with Bret in 93, and that was more to give Bret something to do while the Clique ran the main event. Lawler, to Vince, has always been an announcer first and a wrestler second.

So, given that he was really on loan from another company, and because the WWF didn't really view him as a full time wrestler, he didn't get a sustained push.

phildecapito asks me to dip into an area I've already had some dealings with in the past.

First Question is dealing with the title of Grand Slam Champion. What exactly are the titles for this defined by WWE. From what I understand it is a tag team title, third tier title, second tier title, and one of the big ones. The listing on Wiki doesn't include the US or ECW title under their requirements, but they do qualify as titles under WWE's requirements. But would JBL count with his US title reign, and would matt hardy count with his US and ECW title reigns?

Oh yeah, coz this worked SO well last time.



Ok, let's go through this step by step.

The WWF's first achievement of this type was the WWF Triple Crown. The default (Place Company Here) Triple Crown is the top 3 belts in the company, usually the world, tag and a second tier. Thus, for the WWF, this was easily defined as the World, IC and Tag belts. The first man to do this was Pedro Morales when he won the IC title on Dec 8, 1980. Since these three titles were the only 3 main belts, it was simple and easy.

But then in 1997, the European Title was brought in, and soon, Shawn Michaels won it. He then dubbed himself a Grand Slam Champion, since he had held all 4 main WWF titles, a reference to the Tennis/Golf Grand Slam, since that is also the top 4 titles, although in Wrestling you don't have to hold the belts in the same year, unlike Tennis and Golf.

So again, easy enough to work out, it's all 3/4 belts and you get the award, easy.

But then came the Brand Extension, and it all went to hell.

The WWF, now WWE, never set out the details in a full, concise way, so the new rules had to be taken by extrapolation.

The first change was in Shawn Michaels' bio, where it said he was the first Grand Slam champion, listing his Euro, IC, Tag and BOTH World Titles. Ergo, the WWE considers the WWE and World Heavyweight Titles acceptable for the Grand Slam and thus, logically, the Triple Crown.

Then the next adaptation came with a Kurt Angle bio, where it listed him as a Grand Slam Champ as well, using his Tag Title run with He Who Must Not Be Named. Ergo, both sets of Tag Titles are acceptable for the purposes of a Grand Slam and/or Triple Crown.

But, WWE now has a second secondary belt with the US title, and a third world title with the ECW. Since both titles were created originally outside of the WWE (WWE has their linage going back to the NWA and ECW respectively), they might never be accepted as possible variations, even if logically they should. Until WWE sets this out (perhaps a DVD set of Grand Slam Champions, showing all their title wins?), we can only work on logic and their rules. And their rules, right now, go against logic.

Second questions is their anything special for someone that has held more than the four required limits of titles. With his WWE title reign Jeff Hardy has become the first person to hold the WWE, IC, European, Light heavyweight, Hardcore, and Tag team?

Not as such. I tried to create a couple of new achievements in the above link, the Grand Prix and the Masterclass, neither of which went down well with the comment section. Jericho came upon this problem when he won the Undisputed title, where he became the first man to hold the Euro, IC, Tag, World AND Hardcore titles. I've seen the term ‘True Grand Slam' used occasionally for this distinction, but there is sadly no consensus on this issue.

Again, WWE should be addressing this. All you'd have to do is put up a webpage on the site, "WWE Achievements", and list all these, the Grand Slam, the Golden Five, whatever you want to call them…

Webster has a simple question.

With the recent downturn in the economy, falling PPV numbers, less talent, and the fact that most of the PPV's blow, do you think the WWE will ever go back to only 3 PPV's a year, and if so what should they be.

God no. WWE will never drop below 12 again. 12's a good number. They are still above that, with 13 scheduled so far without getting to Armageddon, but 12 is the number they should aim at, in my opinion. Royal Rumble, No Way Out, Wrestlemania, Backlash, King Of The Ring, One Night Stand, Great American Bash, Summerslam, Night Of Champions, Cyber Sunday, Survivor Series, Armageddon. That'd be my 12, each PPV with it's own gimmick and selling point. Respectively, The Rumble, Elimination Chamber, Wrestlemania, WM Fallout, KOTR, All Gimmicks, WARGAMES, Summerslam, All Titles, Choose Your Own Adventure, Survivor Series, The Scramble Title Matches (it fits the gimmick).

Brian also has a simple yet complicated question.

If WWE ever goes out of business do you think the old territories will make a comeback to fill that void?

It depends on HOW WWE died. I mean, if they died because Pro Wrestling was outlawed, I doubt the territories would comeback. And it also depends on where TNA and ROH were at the point of death.

But yes, if WWE were to implode and have it's tape library sold to someone else who just did DVDs based off of it, then sure the Territory system would have a quick rise from the grave, with all the current small time Indys getting an influx of interest and talent. It would be short lived unless the NWA or an equivalent was formed since they'd probably all start infighting and such, but if there was a power vacuum tomorrow, it would bring them back since TNA would probably not get any attempt to step up right and ROH would become a big fish in a huge pond.

Dent Kelly asks some questions about fans and titles.

1. In ECW and WWE in the late 90's there was this group of fans who always went to the events. There was the Hat guy John Bailey, but there was also a very tan, curly haired fellow, and a guy who looked like a skinny Mick Foley except he always wore shades. Who were these guys?

Ah, Club ECW. First I've heard of Hat Guy/Straw Guy's name, if that is indeed it. The shades guy is, I think, Faith No More guy, so named because he bore an uncanny resemblance to "Big" Jim Martin, former guitarist for rock band Faith No More. The Curly Haired guy MIGHT be Sign Guy, in that his hair that you saw under his cap was pretty curly and he wasn't exactly pale, but it's probably Tye Dye Guy. These guys, as well as Kato and a couple of others, were just huge fans of ECW who went to every ECW show in Philly, and practically all wrestling shows in the area, you see them pop up in WWF shows at the time, and a few were at ECW One Night Stand. Basically, since they were so distinctive and so supportive, they were granted "ECW Club" status, and they could pre-book ECW tickets ahead of time so that they were always there and always front row. I believe that they also occasionally helped out in setting up the ring and such, as did local trainees and kids, which is where Mikey Whipwreck was discovered.

2. Do you think that the Intercontinental championship is the most prestigious title on RAW now? Since the WWE title went to Smackdown, and the World Title has only been here for 6 years, is the IC title the most prestigious title on RAW in your opinion?

Not really. It's the belt with the longest title history, sure. But that doesn't automatically mean it's the most prestigious. The World Title, while new, is the focal point of the brand, and given that it's around the waist of John Cena, I'd give it the nod as being the highest thought of belt on Raw. But your mileage may vary, I'm sure some hardcore feminists/SHIMMER fans might think it's the Women's title…

ScottNM asks a simple question.

I had a question about the Royal Rumbles that are being offered on services like Comcast On Demand- the Royal Rumbles from 2001 to 2007 have been omitted. I have a hunch that this has to do with Chris Benoit, but I was wondering if there was any other possible explanation or official position as to why I can't pay to watch them.

Yeah, it'd be He Who Must Not Be Named there. He came in after the 2000 Rumble, and from 2001 to 07 he was in almost every show, from fighting for the IC title in Ladder Matches to losing in World Title matches to a few Rumbles. Odd that they wouldn't put up 2002, since he was out with injury and thus wasn't on the show or even mentioned for memory, but perhaps they just wanted to be safe rather than sorry.

It's possible Comcast/any other Cable provider would be less squeamish about showing Benoit than WWE is, but right now WWE is still not about to make any sort of profit whatsoever off him outside of compilations that they can't avoid him on. Maybe in a few years or a couple of decades, but right now, WWE won't send out any footage of him if they can avoid it. And that includes On Demand stuff.

To finish, a bit of audience participation, thanks to Glenn Wakeley

In your opinion, which wrestling event had the most unintentional funny moments? These could include botched moves, crazy fans, unscripted moments during promos, etc. I would have to go with Wrestlemania V. Check out the list:

(NOTE: Some of these moments may have been trimmed when Vince released VHS tapes. But if you have taped copies from when it originally aired, all the warts are there.)

The hidden step of doom – during the ring entrances, a total of 4 guys tripped on some pesky step coming down the aisle. Mr. Perfect (supposed to be perfect but he can't walk!), both Bushwhackers (who were idiots, but you think the second one would have avoided it after the first one hit it), and Bret Hart (excellence of execution, except when it comes to walking).

Bushwhackers lick Sean Mooney – coming back up the aisle after their match, they licked Sean Mooney all over his face. Um…gross.

Crazy fan yell during Perfect/Blazer match – Listen just as Perfect kicks out of the crucifix. Some fan starts yelling/moaning really loudly, sounding halfway between vomiting and an orgasm.

Piper's Pit – lame, but nice Piper impression by Brother Love. And did Downey agree to take a fire extinguisher in the face?

Ultimate Warrior 'dumps' Rick Rude – this is on wrestlinggonewrong.com. Warrior gave Rude a backbreaker then lost his balance and both crumbled into the corner. Gorilla tried to cover with "He dumped him!"

Hacksaw and the booger – after his match with Bad News Brown, Hacksaw Jim Duggan had a huge snot hanging from his nose. Jesse Ventura comments on it and the camera zooms in for a gross close-up.

Run DMC and the WM rap – couldn't understand anything (bad sound system), weak applause when they were done, instantly forgettable

Fan cops a feel on Elizabeth – some fan pinched Elizabeth's ass as she came down the aisle. Love the security guy running back.

Jesse-isms – "The wolf climbing the hill is always hungrier then the one that's on top". Say it, brother!

Well, depends on what you find funny. If you love watching a company make one misstep after another, Great American Bash 91 is a laugh a minute. There always seemed to be something going wrong with ECW PPVs, from the lights going out to invasions to The Dudleys going too far to miscalls after miscalls after miscalls by Cyrus…

I'm going to leave this one open to debate, see what the readers have to say. I can't really pick a show, so we'll get lots of different answers instead.

Until then, see you all later, and thanks for reading and your support. Oh, and your ‘support' as well.



Victoria: July 31, 2000 – January 13, 2009.