2 Raw, 2 Furious 06.29.09

Posted by Chris Lansdell on 06.30.2009

Lansdell and Byers are back to analyze one of the better episodes of Raw in quite a while, and to debate the relative merits of Space Cowboys and Bodyguards. Where else but 2 Raw, 2 Furious?

Greetings, humanity! Welcome to the latest edition of a non-regular feature: 2 Raw, 2 Furious. It's almost the Brace for Impact format, only with more of the interaction and less of the segmentation. You get the acerbic wit of Ryan Byers combined with the blind optimism (most of the time) of yours truly, Chris Lansdell. Tonight's Raw featured the fallout from The Bash and from last week's repurchase of the show from Donald Trump. What would that mean? We'll tell you, right after the awesome Meehan

BANNER!



Vince introduces our first guest host - BATISTA!

Lansdell: Someone should teach Vince a lesson in colour coordination. That sports jacket just isn't cutting it.
Byers: He always looked great in the late 1990s, but the century turned and he all of a sudden started looked as guady as he did when he was on commentary.
So, a fifteen wrestler trade, eh?
Lansdell: Christian is on the move, that's for sure. Probably Evan Bourne too.
Byers: AND THEY'RE GOING WITH THE GUEST HOST~! I WANT LAVERNE AND SHIRLEY HOSTING RAW!
Lansdell: Dammit I demand SHAQ!

Enter Batista

Byers: Do you think maybe Batista tore the bicep doing that machine gun pose?
Lansdell: Maybe if he timed it to the damn lull in his music…
Is he hosting Raw or having sex? "Awww yes! YES! That feels good!"
So do we think there's an upset here? Maybe Orton costs HHH the shot?
Byers: I don't know that I would call Cena winning an upset, but I could see that happen as a result of Orton-ference.
Lansdell: I can see MVP winning and getting a one-shot deal against Orton before they FINALLY blowoff HHH-Orton at SummerSlam
Byers: I don't know that there's a title match strong enough from the SD side to compensate for that weak Raw title match. Particularly when you consider the fact that Jericho and Edge will now probably be in a tag title match.
Lansdell: Punk. Hardy. Cage.
Byers: The problem with anything coming out of Smackdown is that they're watched by so few people relative to Raw. It's not like the pre-MyNetwork SD in which they were watched by roughly the same number of people. If you bank on an SD match selling a PPV, it's a match that roughly 1/3 of your potential purchasers haven't seen the build for.
Lansdell: True enough. Although with Smackdown now being available online on the MyNetwork TV website, it might expand their audience. Plus it's not like the show isn't hyped on other channels.
However, I do dig that promo by Batista. Setting up a 3-on-1 where the heel is disadvantaged.
Byers: Yeah, good example of a stipulation match being booked for a reason that is actually based on something that has come previously in a storyline. As opposed to just happening because a stipulation match is what you do when you're out of straight singles match.
Lansdell: And given that we've heard nothing about this trade before now, we actually stand a chance of being surprised.
Byers: Nor do I really have the time or desire to try to figure out who it could be.
Lansdell: Well it's got me interested.

Night of Champions tournament, round 1: HHH vs MVP

Lansdell: I can truly see HHH losing here
Byers: I don't know. If he doesn't win the tournament, I'm almost certain that he loses in the finals.
Lansdell: 6 months ago I would have agreed. But now they seem to be all about the shocks.
Byers: They've done some things that have come out of nowhere, but nothing that's lead to anybody being elevated.
Lansdell: Is your Apathy Alarm going off like mine is? The crowd have gone mild for MVP
Byers: Well, it's not surprising when you consider the fact hat the guy has been treated like a chump ever since he got drafted over to Raw.
Lansdell: He had a decent run after the losing streak, but it wasn't anything to write home about.

In-match thoughts

Lansdell: I'm not sure whether to praise the psychology or rail on the selective selling here. It's a good story t go after the leg, but HHH has no problem leaning on it for those punches.
Byers: The crowd is reacting somewhat, so praise it. That's what matters in the long haul.
Lansdell: The anti-ROH crowd can say what they want, but their 500-person crowds are at least as loud as this. Even with HHH out there, they plain don't care.

Winner: HHH via pinfall (Pedigree)

Byers: How about that upset?
Lansdell: So did MVP get more or less offence than Miz last night?
Byers: I think more. MVP got to tease his finishers and worked that figure four spot.

A tidy little match where MVP got to look at least marginally good with HHH pulling out the win. It didn't really convince me that MVP would have been a threat to a healthy HHH though, because he went after the leg almost to the exclusion of all else. Still, at least he didn't get squashed. I'll go **¼, which for Raw these days is a good rating.

Unified Tag Team Title Match – Edge and Chris Jericho © vs Los Colones

Lansdell: Hey remember Jericho's farewell address?
Byers: I do indeed.
Lansdell: How's that working out for him?
Byers: I'm willing to ignore it because these two guys being allowed to work on all four shows should significantly improve the quality of all of them.
Lansdell: Smackdown can't improve much more or people will be drooling for two hours. ECW isn't bad either.
Wait, mucilaginous cretins? Jericho, I love you. You just sent a couple million people scrambling for their dictionaries. Or dictionary.com, more likely…
Byers: Maybe it's just me, but putting them side by side resolves the "Who is the better promo?" debate in favor of Jericho over Edge.
Lansdell: That was a debate?
Byers: I believe so.
Lansdell: Goofy promos they're pretty equal, but serious Jericho beats serious Edge all to hell.
Byers: Serious or goofy, Edge has always sounded to me like a guy who is playing a character. Jericho always sounds like he IS his character.

In-match comments

Lansdell: We're about 2 minutes in and it's the best match involving Raw talent in ages
Byers: Wait, there's Raw talent in this match?
Lansdell: Los Colones are Raw talent
Byers: Ah. I could've sworn they were SD guys . . . but you usually keep better track than me
Lansdell: Call me crazy, but I think putting Carlito with superior workers like Edge and Jericho might just be the thing to step him up a level
Byers: He has proven himself to be a guy who puts forth more effort when he thinks that he's in or close to the main event, so you're probably not off the mark.
Lansdell: He's looking pretty darn good here. Then again so is Primo.
Byers: Primo's looking better, I'd say.

Winners, and STILL Unified Tag Team Champions: Edge and Chris Jericho via pinfall (Edge on Carlito, miscommunication leading to Spear)

Lansdell: But of course WWE is about to split them up, given that finish.
Byers: I don't know about that . . . I think Primo was just in the wrong position.
Lansdell: Yes, but will Carlito see it that way?
Byers: Probably. I can't see what on earth would come from a feud between these two.
Lansdell: I imagine many people said the same thing when Michaels and Jannetty split up. Not that I think either Colon is on that level.
Byers: I think that Primo could be given time, but definitely not right now.
Lansdell: Again, Michaels wasn't ready when the Rockers split. And I wish I could fathom the anti-Carlito bias on this site. I think he has a ton of skill and if he could be talked into using it regularly like he did in that last match...
Byers: Carlito's a guy who runs hot and cold in my mind. For ever performance like tonight's, he's had a performance like he did when he put on one of the worst matches that I've ever seen against Ken Kenned on Raw a couple of years back. Or the botchariffic three way feud he had with Shelton and Johnny Nitro a while back.
Lansdell: Considering the botch ratios of both the other 2 guys, is that really a surprise?
Byers: Carlito offered more than his fair share of screw-ups in those matches.

I'm torn on this one. On the one hand it was a solid tag team match that made me check the calendar to ensure it wasn't Thursday night. Carlito and Primo both looked better than I've seen them in quite some time. On the other, I can't help but feel that there's a breakup coming for Primo and Carlito after that argument. As Ryan said I don't know what good could possibly come out of that feud. That tag team is the best thing Carlito has been involved with in years, and Primo just isn't ready yet. Give it a few more months for Carlito to get consistent and to let Primo shine a bit more, and maybe the split would be worth it. It's easily ***, even taking the finish into consideration.

Miz / Cena video package and 1st round tournament match

Lansdell: What an absolutely awesome video package
Byers: The only thing that it's missing is Miz doing something physical that actually got heat on Cena. Which is really the only thing that the feud was missing. That and a match that didn't make Miz look like a complete joke.
Lansdell: Hopefully we get it tonight.
Byers: Okay, there's the heat on Cena with the DDT from a few weeks ago.
Lansdell: And the chair shots that followed.
Byers: Ha, nice dig at CW in the "Did you know?" promo. The CW, not CW Anderson.
Lansdell: Which is actually who I thought you meant. We're old school.
Byers: No, they mentioned that Raw was watched by more females than any programming on the CW, which is particularly humorous given that one of the reasons that SD was dropped from the network was its efforts to brand itself as a channel that attracts young women.

In-match comments

Lansdell: I'm dying to know exactly what tools Miz is lacking to be a main event player in WWE
Byers: I don't think that his in-ring is on the level of other WWE main eventers. He's not BAD, but he's not on the level of an HHH, Orton, or Batista, let alone a Jericho, Hardy, or Edge. That's the only thing I could possibly classify as missing.
Lansdell: I don't think Batista belongs in that discussion. I put Miz above him.
Byers: Yeah, I view your disdain for Batista's matches as you view my disdain for Kozlov's matches. He's really not that bad.
Lansdell: Miz is starting stronger tonight than he did last night
Byers: Indeed he is. And, if you think about it, this match is more important to Miz's career than last night's match. Far more people will be watching it.
Lansdell: Shows resiliency too, coming back from a defeat like that. Which is a face trait, but let's not split hairs. THIS is what last night's match should have been
Byers: Exactly what it should have been. Even if you did the same finish from last night.
Lansdell: Cena being cocky and taking Miz lightly, getting totally surprised, but his class winning out in the end. Miz gets a rub and gets over without needing to win. As long as Cena doesn't "kick dirt" over him again.
Byers: We'll see if this match continues in that direction. And, if so, how the follow-up goes.
Lansdell: Hey, I know a guy who wrote a column about that! It should be up Tuesday in fact.
Byers: God bless Julian Bond. Neck snap over the top rope . . . double sledge from the top . . . somebody bougth Miz the Randy Savage DVD.
Lansdell: He did both moves last night and I remember thinking the same. I wonder if Savage actually gets an on-air comparison mention. That would be historic.
Byers: There are worse guys to emulate, that's for sure.
Lansdell: I need to see this Miz vs the Morrison of today.
Byers: It could certainly be fun. I'll pass on the promos, though.
Lansdell: I'd just like to point out that Miz just countered a super FU.
Byers: I can't stand Morrison on the mic. Yes, yes he did.
Lansdell: I could listen to Miz promos for quite a while.
Byers: He's not that bad. Again, not on the level of the main event guys, but he's working his way up there.
Lansdell: I never thought I would say this, but Cole is actually helping tell this story.
Byers: I was getting ready to give credit to Lawler for that, actually.
Lansdell: Cole's playing his part. He sounds shocked that Miz isn't beaten yet.
Byers: I'll admit, that's the perfect role for him to play.

Winner: John Cena via submission (STF)

Lansdell: Cena-HHH next week. Chances that stands?
Byers: I can't imagine them baiting and switching on a match that big, unless it's in the form of adding people to make it a three way or a four way.
Lansdell: That's my take. People get added, namely one or 2 of the other acquisitions in this trade.
Byers: That's the weird thing about this "guest host" gimmick . . . if the show is hosted by a different person every week, each with absolute power, you theoretically could have hosts overuling each other every week.
Lansdell: Well that would require some far-reaching decisions be made previously
Byers: Well, based on tonight's precedence, these hosts can apparently book PPV main events. That's a decision that usually has to stick for four or so weeks.
Lansdell: Depends on when the contract gets signed
Byers: In theory, there's nothing stopping next week's host from saying, "Fuck this tournament. We're just going to have Brian Kendrick wrestle Orton for the title at the PPV."

These two went out and had the exact match they should have had at The Bash. As Ryan said more people probably saw this one, but it seems counter-productive to give him such a strong showing right after he gets virtually buried. However it bears pointing out that we still haven't got anyone new in the title picture. Best singles match I've seen on Raw in a while though. Which, sadly, is only enough for **3/4

Backstage with Legacy

Lansdell: MILLION DOLLAR HOST NEXT WEEK!
Byers: I could see DiBiase, Jr. going over Kofi as a result of that. Especially since they want to push him big for the Marine 2 release.
Lansdell: I can also see him not kowtowing to Orton.
Byers: Also a possibility.
Lansdell: How great is it that we're 3 matches in and that was our first backstage segment?

Women's Fatal Fourway – Mickie James vs Kelly Kelly vs Rosa Mendes vs Beth Phoenix

Lansdell: Is that dumbass still calling her Maurice?
Byers: Some people call her the space cowgirl, some people call her the gangster of love.
Lansdell: See I would have gone with Paul Simon there.
Byers: Not a bad choice, but with "Gangster of Love" we get a second wrestling tie-in through Stan Lane.
Lansdell: No relation to Lenny
Byers: That we're aware of.
Lansdell: Can Mickie carry Kelly to something watchable?
Byers: Sure she can. Though it would be better if Mickie were a heel. Kelly can do a couple of pretty spots without looking incompetent, so if heel Mickie just beat on her for a while and let her do a handspring and a rana for a comeback, that'd be perfectly acceptable for a three minute diva match.
Lansdell: Do we really WANT more three-minute matches? I think for Kelly Kelly to develop, and she's shown both the desire and the potential to do so, she needs to be taken further in a match now.

In-match comments

Byers: Four way submission spot followed up by a three woman spear? Did my DVD player start up some CHIKARA while I wasn't looking?
Lansdell: All we need now is a Tower of Doom
Byers: Are there supposed to be tag rules in this match, or did I make that up?
Lansdell: I don't think so. Fatal Four Way
Byers: Right. I can never remember what's what in terms of WWE's rebranding of gimmick matches. There are just too many of them.
Lansdell: And yet TNA has at least double the number.
Byers: No matter how many times Jim Ross tried to tell me the difference between an intergender match and a mixed tag, I just never got it.
Lansdell: All I know is that one of them means the men can wail on the women
Byers: Even though that always winds up happening in both of them.
Lansdell: We're not supposed to know that.
Byers: Of course not.

Winner: Mickie James via pinfall (on Rosa, very sloppy MickieDT)

Rosa Mendes should not be anywhere near this sort of match yet. Don't they have any other women on the roster? Like Jillian? Either way, the match wasn't horrible when Mickie and Beth were in control, but REALLY suffered at the other times. Mickie winning is the right call, it lets them further the "Maryse ducking Mickie" story. A DQ or countout win for Mickie at Night of Champions should follow. The match gets *½.

Big Show vs Kofi Kingston

Lansdell: Oh God they're feeding Kofi to Show.
Byers: This is where I would call an upset tonight if I were inclined to call one. Particularly if Show winds up as one of the traded wrestlers.
Lansdell: I thought he would be, but I'm not so sure now. Why put him on the show if he's traded?
Byers: Okay, I'm going with Morrison, Killings, and Bourne as my predictions for Orton's opponents tonight.
Lansdell: Bourne, Christian and TAKER
Byers: Hm, interesting one.
Lansdell: Another interesting one - Kofi gets a better reaction than MVP
Byers: Kofi's been booked stronger over the course of the last couple of months.
Lansdell: And he's just plain better.
Byers: That I disagree with. He's flashier, and he's probably better as a babyface. But, overall, heel MVP > face Kofi.
Lansdell: Possibly, but if I have a choice of watching Kofi or MVP against the majority of opponents, I choose Kofi
Byers: Again, it all hinges on the heel/face deal for me.
Lansdell: I think we can agree that Kofi is more athletic, wile MVP is better on the mic
Byers: He's more athletic, but he's not a better wrestler.

Double countout

Lansdell: Well I was going to call Kofi by countout, so that was close.
Byers: Does this mean we're getting a Kofi/Show FEUD? I cannot fathom that. But, then again, we've also seen the Great Khali and Dolph Ziggler feuding for the better part of two months, so starnger things have happened.
Lansdell: Tortoise vs Hare redux. And that Khali-Ziggler feud was well written and really showed off what Ziggler can do
Byers: Tortoise versus hare would imply that Show has more staying power than Kofi . . . I don't think that's the case.
Lansdell: Damn you and your Aesop-reading pedantry!
Byers: We really need an angle based on the story of the lion with a thorn in his paw.

This was a whole lot of nothing that really only served to spark off a feud between the two. Instead of booking Show in a David vs Goliath story, they've decided to give him a Quicksilver vs Blob deal. I have to believe that feud is being used to elevate Kofi as a threat, since he has tremendous fan support, but it's like getting a tattoo: the getting there is painful;, but the end result is what you wanted. *½ for a nothing match.

Lansdell: The Million Dollar Man had the best entrance theme EVER.
Byers: Not unless I fell in to some kind of parallel universe in which Badstreet, USA never existed.
Lansdell: Ooooh tough call. That guitar solo vs that cackle.

The Orton Gauntlet

Opponent one – Evan "Air" Bourne

Byers: Chalk one up in my column.
Lansdell: And in mine. Matt Sydal has arrived.
Byers: Bourne on Raw makes sense. It allows you to do a Misterio-esque character on Raw without having Misterio on Raw.
Lansdell: I want Bourne-Kofi
Byers: That would be an interesting test of how good Bourne is at carrying somebody.
Lansdell: Half the match would be in mid-air
Byers: Kofi can do some athletic spots, but I don't see him as having the capability of building a match around those spots yet.
Lansdell: Of course both these guys are from St Louis. And that's about all they have in common.
Byers: Of course. They ran in some of the same indy circles when Orton was VERY early in his career.
Lansdell: Orton never struck me as the type to help out someone from the old stomping grounds.
Byers: I doubt that he is. I don't think they were in the area at the same time, but I know some guys who worked in that scene with Orton very early did the same with Bourne later on.

Winner, fall one: Randy Orton via pinfall (Super RKO)

Opponent two – Jack Swagger

Lansdell: SWAGGA~!
Byers: Weird match.
Lansdell: It's the special ed gorilla!
Byers: It's the last great legitimate athlete recruited by WWE.
Lansdell: I feel really sorry for Bauer right now.
Byers: Well, that's one way of getting out of doing the heel-heel match that nobody would react to.
Lansdell: And getting some heat on himself at the same time. Intentional count-out with the goofy grin attached. Cue the rumours that he's joining Legacy.
Byers: I would've saved the explanation for next week, though. Milk it for a little bit.
Lansdell: It's that follow-up thing again.

Winner, fall two: Randy Orton via countout (Swagger does an M.Bison pose on the apron)

Opponent 3 – Mark Henry

Byers: Wow, Raw decimates ECW.
Lansdell: Christian must have pissed someone off
Byers: They just don't view him as a top level guy. Never have. Frankly, neither do I after his work in TNA.
Lansdell: I have a lot of time for Christian. He's not a title contender, but I do think he's worth more than wallowing on ECW with no belt.
Byers: My take is that if he's on Raw or SD, he's going to be just another midcard guy in a meaningless position. So, if you're going to put him in a position that's meaningless in kayfabe terms, you might as well give him the old Finlay-Benoit "coach to the young guys" role on ECW, since he is a competent worker.
Lansdell: Especially if, as it seems, ECW is about to raid FCW. So is this a Henry face turn?
Byers: Yeah, I guess I would call that a face turn.
Lansdell: I can get behind this. I also have a vision of Shelton on ECW with Tony Atlas, which I also like.

Winner, fall three: Mark Henry via pinfall (World's Strongest Slam)

Byers: Does Henry get added to the PPV main event as a triple threat? This may just wind up freshening things up after all.
Lansdell: Especially if he wins the belt
Byers: I don't see it going that far, but it's at least nice to have a new legitimate main eventer coming out of nowhere. Been a while since we've seen that. Plus his music still rules the school.
Lansdell: And his mic skills are vastly underrated
Byers: Oh, without a doubt. I don't know how he'll do as a face, but as a heel he was an awesome promo. Which is why it was always odd that he of all people got a manager.
Lansdell: Besides, it's a new monster for Cena to beat when he goes back to a heel again.
Byers: Well, a new old monster. I think we've seen that one before. But it's been long enough that it seems fresh-ish.

I thought this match was really well put together. You had Bourne first, who came out and put on a strong and plucky showing without making Orton look bad, then took a very strong finisher that has put down far bigger names. A great example of how a short match can elevate the loser. Swagger's show of strength followed by the intentional countout was perfect to establish where Swagger will fit and what his MO is for people who haven't seen him. Then the Mark Henry thing was just the icing on a quality cake, with the completely unpredictable face turn and victory over Orton. Top marks all around, although I hear Bauer weeping from here. Poor ECW. The quality of the action wasn't the best, but the story it told worked. **½ for that.

Final Thoughts

Byers: All in all, I enjoyed this show. There were some inconsistencies in the storylines if you want to nitpick at them. (For example, why is Vince bound by anything that Donald Trump did? Can't he just undo it all now that he's back in power?) However, at the end of the day, we got two decent television matches in the form of the tournament bouts, one above average TV match in the form of the tag title defense, and a rather impressive debut for Mark Henry that seemed designed to immediately establish a new main event player on a show that was desperately in need of new main event players. So, though it wasn't the perfect show, I'm still going to have to give this one a thumbs up.

Lansdell: There was a lot of right here, but a fair amount of head-scratching too. Kofi-Show? A possible Colon breakup? Neither of these attracts me. However as Ryan said, there was some good action here and the story development was very good. The Cena-HHH match next week should bring the fans in, but I can see them going with a bait and switch. Having the Million Dollar Man hosting might even bring in some nostalgia viewers, so it would be a good time to throw in an old school type of match. What they've done with this show is make me want to tune in next week AND make me interested in the next pay per view, which is a skill they'd lost for a long time. Thumbs squarely up for this one.